Tejada/Cubs rumors strong again

by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2005 10:05 AM EST in News & Rumors

The Cubs, aggressively pursuing a blockbuster trade for Orioles shortstop Miguel Tejada, are willing to part with a top starting pitcher, most likely right-hander Mark Prior, sources tell FOXsports.com.

The talks are stalled, a source says, over the Cubs' insistence that the Orioles give up left-hander Erik Bedard along with Tejada if they want Prior - and the Cubs' refusal to include top outfield prospect Felix Pie or a top pitching prospect in return.

OK, so here we go. I will suggest two trades with the Cubs (edited to include Ronny Cedeno, who I forgot about).

Carlos Zambrano and Felix Pie/Ronny Cedeno for Miguel Tejada and Erik Bedard

Mark Prior, Rich Hill and Felix Pie/Ronny Cedeno for Miguel Tejada and Erik Bedard

I am not the biggest Pie fan in the world so I'd need Zambrano over Prior to not also include Hill. If they don't want to move Zambrano (and they shouldn't, he's the only reliable guy they have), then I'll take Prior...and Rich Hill.

Maybe that's ridiculous and a hard bargain, but I'm not the supposed contender with Neifi Perez at shortstop.

What sense does Prior-for-Tejada/Bedard make? Prior and Tejada are both known commodities and very good, but one of them is a pitcher with a questionable arm and the other is basically a lock as an All-Star shortstop and a big bat in the middle of the lineup. Prior-for-Tejada straight up doesn't even make sense to me, so why would we throw in Bedard and then not get back a top prospect with the deal? Zambrano-for-Tejada straight up doesn't make sense to me either. I'd still want another player.

The point is the Orioles aren't being held at gunpoint to do this. Tejada has not formally filed his request for a trade or anything. They don't HAVE to do anything. So if the Cubs want Miguel Tejada, who is under contract for a while longer and is arguably the best shortstop in baseball, they kind of can't be doing their own hard bargain here. Or maybe they just want to give the impression that they're trying.

I don't expect any deal to come about, though I am somewhat fearful that the front office will do something stupid with Tejada still.

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Comments

I read this article

And it certainly gives the impression that the talks are serious. I certainly don't think trading Tejada is a great idea, but if done right I believe it could really help the club.

I wouldn't want Rich Hill. Gimme Cedeno. We need another shortstop, and the only way I can justify a Tejada trade is to do like Flanagan said... build the team around Pitching and Defense, and build from within.

Maybe I'm being unrealistic, but Tejada/Bedard for Prior/Cedeno/Pie would do us more good than harm, long term. I'd even throw in a third guy, if they need one. Send them Fiorentino as sort of a compensatory favor for the loss of Pie.

A trade with the Cubs where we send veterans for potential (and a pitcher) could be a great thing for us. They have so many talented, young players they may be willing to part with (Prior, Hill, Cedeno, Patterson, Pie, et al), that this could definately be made worth our while.

by therobotian on Dec 22, 2005 10:27 AM EST reply actions

re:

I'd take Cedeno ahead of Pie, actually. I forgot about Cedeno.

Patterson is not talented.

"I don't see why you reporters keep confusing Brooks and me. Can't you see that we wear different numbers?" - Frank Robinson

by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2005 10:36 AM EST up reply actions

Eh, Talented but not Skilled

He has issues to be sure, but he hit .298 in 2003 and has the tools to do it all. For some reason though, he just isn't. I'd love to see him put it together, but I wouldn't trade Tejada for him to watch it happen in Baltimore.

by therobotian on Dec 22, 2005 10:40 AM EST up reply actions

Patterson

I prefer to think of him as "athletically gifted" - but it's picking nits. We agree on Patterson, actually. I've always kind of liked him too, but I don't want to give up anything to see if he could get his act together for us. He also seems, for lack of a better word, dumb.

"I don't see why you reporters keep confusing Brooks and me. Can't you see that we wear different numbers?" - Frank Robinson

by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2005 10:51 AM EST up reply actions

Talented is good

But dumb is not so good.
After 7 or so years of having the "dumber than a bag of bricks" Ponson in our midst, I think I've had enough of guys with talent, potential, and absolutely no brain!

"What's my secret for winning? That's easy. Pitching, defense, and three run homers" Earl Weaver

by elktonfan on Dec 22, 2005 10:56 AM EST up reply actions

Now Pie, Cedeno, and Prior on the other hand...

I'd be more than glad to give Tejada, Bedard, and Fiorentino up for that package.

by therobotian on Dec 22, 2005 10:57 AM EST up reply actions

Need More

I couldn't do a three for three with this, Tejada is just too valuable as an everyday player with MVP potential. To make this work, I'd have to ask them to include Rich Hill, making it Hill, Pie, Cedeno, Prior for Tejada, Bedard, Fiorentino. Actually, I might rather include Loewen than Bedard and try to use Bedard in another deal (keep pushing him for Dunn).

by delbird on Dec 22, 2005 11:24 AM EST up reply actions

re:

The Cubs probably don't want Loewen. He still has all sorts of issues and isn't considered all that good of a prospect.

"I don't see why you reporters keep confusing Brooks and me. Can't you see that we wear different numbers?" - Frank Robinson

by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2005 11:27 AM EST up reply actions

Trade

It sounds like the Orioles want Prior + Pie/Hill for Tejada, and the Cubs want Tejada + Bedard for Prior. That's a pretty big chasm, with each team figuring they have the more valuable superstar. I don't see this getting done.

by spetro on Dec 22, 2005 11:22 AM EST reply actions

Prior for Tejada and Bedard should be a no go

As a quick comparison, I just pulled up VORPs for the past three years.

Year Zambrano Prior Tejada 2003 47.5 66.8 58.1 2004 61.3 24.0 53.0 2005 51.0 30.8 50.2

I guarantee you that Tejada's VORP will stay more consistent than Zambrano's for years to come. Pitchers are injury prone and hard to project. Bottom line is, I think the Cubs are way overboard to want both Tejada and Bedard for Prior and prospects. The deal should be Zambrano and prospects for Tejada and Bedard.

"We are coming back strong next year ... I know you have heard that tune before, but this time it will literally come true." Peter Angelos 09/2005

by drj on Dec 22, 2005 11:37 AM EST reply actions

Re:

Sorry for my own reply....
I should not say guarantee. The odds are strong that Tejada will continue to outperform any pitcher in the coming years.

"We are coming back strong next year ... I know you have heard that tune before, but this time it will literally come true." Peter Angelos 09/2005

by drj on Dec 22, 2005 11:41 AM EST up reply actions

re:

I agree, Tejada is a 162 games a year shortstop that is going to be really good for the remainder of his contract at least.

That said, I can see what the Cubs are doing - Zambrano is the only guy they can really rely on, and on the other hand, when Prior is healthy and on his game, he's better than Z is. So they're selling the Prior of 2003 and pointing out that he's just turned 25 years old. I don't think they have any intention of trading Zambrano. He's given them 200 great innings three straight years.

I'd love to have Prior, but you gotta sell me on at least two prospects to give up Miguel Tejada who is all but a guarantee every year. The Cubs have almost zero leverage in these talks. It's all about Tejada, and we control Tejada's fate. Tejada makes their team much better immediately, while we theoretically take on total unprovens and a high-risk, high-reward pitcher. We're not going to contend in 2006 either way. The whole thing is our deal to handle however we wish.

"I don't see why you reporters keep confusing Brooks and me. Can't you see that we wear different numbers?" - Frank Robinson

by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2005 11:49 AM EST up reply actions

Prior for Tejada

What are the Cubs smoking? Tejada is much more valuable than a good but frequently injured Pitcher. And Bedard as well? I just hope Flanny doesn't take a toke.

by el gordo on Dec 22, 2005 11:47 AM EST reply actions

Cubs/Angels

I'm seeing rumors around three way deals involving the Cubs, Angels, and Orioles. Names being noted include Prior and Javy Lopez to the Angels, Tejada to the Cubs, and a mix of major/minor league talent to the Orioles. Those are two teams with pretty decent young talent to combine for a deal; Santana, Kotchman, Hill, Pie. Maybe O.Cabrera would fit into the mix. Both teams seem like a good focal point for getting something done. The odd thing is that both seem like they would want Tejada, although getting Prior back into southern California would be a coup for the Angels.

by delbird on Dec 22, 2005 1:39 PM EST reply actions

Cubs/Bosox/Os

here's another angle (courtesy www.realgmbaseball.com):

The Cubs and Orioles also have engaged in three-way discussions with the Red Sox in which Tejada would go to the Cubs and Ramirez to the Orioles, according to another source. The package the Sox would receive is unclear, but conceivably could include Prior, shortstop Ronny Cedeno and center fielder Corey Patterson.

Whatever the details, a three-way deal would appear to be a longshot, and no other deal appears close. The Red Sox would need to give the Orioles pitching along with Ramirez if they wanted Tejada in a straight, two-team trade. The Angels' offers for Tejada have been insufficient, sources say.

The Orioles are concerned that they would be losing too much offense if Prior was their principal acquisition in a Tejada deal. The Red Sox share the same reservation about trading Ramirez for anything other than a hitter of Tejada's caliber.

The Orioles and Cubs have been talking for at least a week.

That's a bad deal. Ramirez without pitching is not going to help the team in the long run.

by zknower on Dec 22, 2005 3:10 PM EST up reply actions

I like

the proposals that include Cedeno, Pie, Kotchman, or Santana. Prior would be great, but honestly, I'd seriously consider trading Tejada in a 3 way deal for those four.

by therobotian on Dec 22, 2005 3:23 PM EST up reply actions

You know...

...if something happens (hopefully, something good), in the end Tejada's outburst will have actually helped the team.

There's no way the FO would have considered trading Tejada at the beginning of the offseason: they would have been attacked by a mob of Os fans. But now that word is out that Tejada is unhappy, the office can deal him whether he actually wants to go or not.

If the FO can make a good club for 2007 by dealing Tejada away, I'm all for it.

by zknower on Dec 22, 2005 2:52 PM EST reply actions

That's my sentiment

And I think that's what is appearing to be happening. The indication seems to be that the FO is trying to work out a deal that's going to bring us good young prospects and possibly a polished veteran. It will either be great for the club, or not happne at all.

by therobotian on Dec 22, 2005 3:04 PM EST up reply actions

Be Bold

I think its time the FO takes a bold step to get a resolution on this. I can't see it dragging into the new year. They need to do one of two things:

1. Step in front of the cameras/microphones and tell everyone that Tejada isn't going anywhere and that they will be building a competitive team around him. Put this talk to rest....

2. Put together a package with a couple teams that improves them now and in the future; the opportunity seems to be there (I don't see a fan revolt if it happens).

Here's a thought on a three team angle with the Cubs/Angels:

Cubs get: Tejada, Bedard, Kendrick

Angels get: Prior, Cedeno, Lopez

O's get: Santana, Cabrera, Kotchman, Hill, Pie

by delbird on Dec 22, 2005 3:50 PM EST reply actions

the talk

I really don't mind the speculation. Could you explain a bit more why either a public annoucement or a trade is absolutely necessary?

by birdman on Dec 22, 2005 4:39 PM EST up reply actions

Among many Tejada rumors on the web today....

are these tidbits from The Sun:

According to team and industry sources, the most serious discussions the Orioles are having about Tejada appear to be with the Chicago Cubs, who are dangling a package that includes standout right-handed pitcher Mark Prior.

According to industry sources, however, the Cubs want Orioles left-hander Erik Bedard included in the deal and don't want to trade top outfield prospect Felix Pie, whom the Orioles covet.

The Orioles also are slightly wary of Prior's recent history of elbow troubles and would prefer obtaining Carlos Zambrano, but the Cubs reportedly have no interest in trading him.

As of now, according to a source with knowledge of the trade talks, the two teams are not yet close to an agreement despite several proposals being sent back and forth. Cubs second baseman Todd Walker, center fielder Corey Patterson and 25-year-old left-handed pitching prospect Rich Hill have also been mentioned in a deal, but the Orioles aren't enthralled with Walker or Patterson.

Walker would essentially be a bench player with All-Star Brian Roberts entrenched at second base, and Patterson struggled mightily last season and would not seem to constitute that big of an upgrade over Luis Matos, whose status as the Orioles' everyday center fielder is in jeopardy.

The Orioles and Cubs have been in discussions for several weeks and have even gotten several teams involved in the trade talks. According to two industry sources, there was some preliminary discussion between the Orioles, Cubs and Oakland Athletics on a three-way deal that included Tejada, Bedard, Prior and Oakland ace Barry Zito among others heading to new homes. Prior and Zito were the centerpieces of the package coming to the Orioles in the early talks.

But at this point, the A's asking price for Zito appears to be sky-high, and the Orioles wouldn't be interested in obtaining the left-hander in a deal unless they can sign him - this is his contract year - to a long-term deal and that appears unlikely.

The Orioles are interested in White Sox right-hander Jon Garland, who is a free agent after this season, and had some talks with Chicago last week in a deal that didn't include Tejada, according to industry sources. However, the White Sox wanted Bedard, instead of pitching prospects in the deal, and the Orioles balked.

Things that seem good to me about these rumors:

We're trying to replace Matos
They're not just going to give Tejada away. Sounds like the asking price is high enough that we'd be happy with an eventual trade.

Most interesting to me is that last bit about Garland. Bedard plus someone for Garland? Make that deal, like, yesterday. What are they waiting for?

by zknower on Dec 23, 2005 9:08 AM EST reply actions

re:

Bedard plus someone for Garland? Make that deal, like, yesterday. What are they waiting for?

It appears as though they just want Bedard straight up. I dunno, though. Bedard is still young enough to turn into a really good pitcher, he's got a nice K-rate and most of his problems still center on injury. Garland has been a regular for years and just now put it together. He's a little younger than Bedard but not so much that I think that's a deal-maker. Chances are 2005 is the best Garland will ever do - not that I'm saying he won't have repeat years, because he could have a bunch of them around this level, but he's always going to be a 2/3 starter at his best I think (past control issues are a problem, his K-rate isn't good at all), his contract is up after this year, and...why would he want to stay in Baltimore? I'm a believer in what Garland did in 2005, but you have to think about that and consider that Bedard may have just as good of a season this year if he can stay healthy. Considering the 2006 team's place in the world, I think it might be a good idea to just give Bedard another chance this coming season. The White Sox were close to giving up on Garland and look what he did this year.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong. I really don't have a side on this one, but I do believe Bedard still has more upside.

"I don't see why you reporters keep confusing Brooks and me. Can't you see that we wear different numbers?" - Frank Robinson

by Scott Christ on Dec 23, 2005 10:36 AM EST up reply actions

hmm.

Bedard is still young enough to turn into a really good pitcher, he's got a nice K-rate and most of his problems still center on injury. Garland has been a regular for years and just now put it together. He's a little younger than Bedard but not so much that I think that's a deal-maker.

So he's younger than Bedard.; and he HAS put it together, whereas Bedard has only put it together for 1/3 of a season. What if we could get him to agree to an extension before the trade?

I believe hugely in Bedard's upside, actually. But Garland has, at a younger age than Bedard, had a dominant full season. Bedard could pan out beautifully, and that's the risk we take. But he could also be what he's always been....injury-prone with flashes of potential.

I guess it's a question of which horse you bet on? The one who has four straight years of 30+ starts and may have finally figured it out, or the one who has never pitched a full season and may have finally figured it out? I guess I like the odds with the former.

Two other things:

I like Garland's makeup.. He's a strapping 6'6 guy, he could be what Ponson should have been. And he chews up innings. I don't know if Bedard is really capable of ever pitching 200+ innings in a year.
Which one will respond better to Mazzone? There have been rumors of Bedard's stubbornness.

Like you, I'm a little on the fence. I'm absolutely against the deal for only a year. But if the O's could talk extension, they could do worse than to add Garland to the middle of their rotation.

by zknower on Dec 23, 2005 1:20 PM EST up reply actions

billy beane likes him

so i don't want to get rid of bedard. he's the guy that billy beane kept asking for when we were talking trades with the a's for hudson and zito. billy is a way better gm that flanagan, i trust his opinion of our guys a lot more than i trust our front office. and garland only won a bunch of games, all of his underlying stats point to a drop back to reality at some point.

by joet on Dec 23, 2005 1:48 PM EST up reply actions

Bedard's upside

What makes you think Bedard's ever gonna win 18 games in a season let alone next year. Cabrera maybe but Bedard? 15 games max if he can stay healthy. And I hate watching him pitch, he takes forever between each one. Nibble nibble nibble.

by el gordo on Dec 23, 2005 11:39 AM EST reply actions

re:

What would have made you think Garland would win 18 games in a season?

"I don't see why you reporters keep confusing Brooks and me. Can't you see that we wear different numbers?" - Frank Robinson

by Scott Christ on Dec 23, 2005 12:27 PM EST up reply actions

Exactly

Plus, the O's are looking to ADD pitchers to the rotation, not swap. If Bedard goes, it's going to be for much more than a rent-a-pitcher for one year.

by BleedingOrange on Dec 23, 2005 11:44 AM EST reply actions

Whoops

The above comment was a reply to SC's. I got excited and stuck it in the wrong place.

(Insert Kobe Bryant joke here)

by BleedingOrange on Dec 23, 2005 11:46 AM EST up reply actions

oh that's bad...

...and funny. :)

by zknower on Dec 23, 2005 12:58 PM EST up reply actions

I agree

If we trade Bedard, it better be for another pitcher who's not a one year rental. I doubt Garland would sign an extension this offseason given the escalating prices for pitchers. If the O's wait until next offseason, they could have both Bedard and Garland.

by birdman on Dec 23, 2005 5:08 PM EST up reply actions

differing perspective

I was talking to a guy at the gas station who is a Cubs fan and thinks the Cubs would be nuts to give up Prior even as good as Tejada is. Just a pointless note.

"I don't see why you reporters keep confusing Brooks and me. Can't you see that we wear different numbers?" - Frank Robinson

by Scott Christ on Dec 23, 2005 1:05 PM EST reply actions

he's thinking...

...of Mark prior in 2003, not 2005.

by zknower on Dec 23, 2005 1:21 PM EST up reply actions

Chicago Radio

I was listening to a Chicago radio station yesterday (ESPN 1000) and their guys thought Prior was too good to give up for Tejada. However, they indicated that Dan Patrick had been on earlier and seemed to think Prior shouldn't be enough for someone the caliber of Tejada. The local radio guys considered that the 'national' perspective (which is probably reality) while their high thoughts of Prior are probably the result of being local fans that over value their own players. I like the 'national' perspective, Prior isn't enough (but maybe I'm over valuing Tejada, my own local player......nah).

by delbird on Dec 23, 2005 2:04 PM EST reply actions

Prior for Tejada straight up....

...is a bad deal for us. The Cubs are out of their minds if they're asking for Tejada AND Bedard. Zambrano for Tejada straight up sounds fair. My concern is what the contracts the Cubs currently have on Prior and Zambrano are. Anybody know?

by Jonnypops on Dec 23, 2005 8:30 PM EST up reply actions

Prior and Zambrano

I think they both have 3 seasons (maybe 2) left until free agency. I believe Prior signed a major league contract right out of college so I think his salary is set for the next 3 years. I believe Zambrano, in contrast, is abritration eligible. He made 3.7 last year so he's due a healthy raise. I'm guessing he'll make around 6 to 7 million next year.

by birdman on Dec 24, 2005 12:23 AM EST up reply actions