How you feelin': Manny and Clement for Tejada

by Scott Christ on Dec 30, 2005 2:56 AM EST in News & Rumors

Just kind of thinking out loud (or on a keyboard) here...

SportsCenter is even talking about Manny/Clement for Tejada at this point, so maybe there's something to it. They usually stay out of the rumor mill. Or maybe they just had nothing to talk about right now.

However, I was just thinking about this idea and I think I really like it.

For one thing, Manny Ramirez is a tremendous hitter and a huge contributor with the bat. He's also a star's star having spent so much time in Boston with the spotlight on him. I'm not saying anything bad about Miguel Tejada's ability as a baseball player, but he's not Manny at the plate. Manny changes the lineup in a big way.

Matt Clement is a pitcher I do like despite his faults, and if we hired Leo Mazzone to try and help pitchers, I think Clement could be a prime candidate for Mazzone help. Clement obviously has ability and could be a frontline starter if he'd just not fall apart all the time. Maybe Mazzone can get something out of him. It's interesting to consider, especially if you're the sort that thinks Mazzone can help anyone. I don't think Leo can do a lot with a guy like Esteban Loaiza, but Clement is another story.

Clement is 31 years old, Manny is 34 this coming May. I think both of them will be at least as good as they are for a while longer. With Clement, I can still see him having a late prime. I could be wrong about that, of course.

I'd make the deal. Tejada obviously flat-out wants out of Baltimore. Manny Ramirez has said he's totally open to playing here. Manny and Tejada are most probably going to continue to be Manny and Tejada, Clement's the wild card.

It would make signing Burnitz even worse on some levels, but on the plus side you can DH Ramirez, play Burnitz in left and hope he's not really bad, and use Conine off the bench, which is the ideal role for him at this point. But then you've got Javy Lopez stuck in the lurch having to play first base, which is not something he's shown he can do. Mike Piazza was awful at it, but Scott Hatteberg turned out to be pretty damn good. So who knows?

I like Miguel Tejada and I'll harbor no ill will toward him if he's traded. In fact, I'll wish him luck. He's a guy that wants desperately to win, and he doesn't feel as though Baltimore is the place for him to do that. It's his right to feel that way and speak about it.

How about you? Would you make this deal?

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Comments

Of course...

...this is what I've BEEN talkin' about. A BETTER hitter (one of the best, no ifs ands or buts about it) and a decent starting pitcher in exchange for Mr. T? Bring it on....we'll be a much better team for it.

by Jonnypops on Dec 30, 2005 3:51 AM EST reply actions

Yep

It's just time. I love Tejada, he's a gamer with tremendous skill and heart, and he's a born clubhouse leader. BUT he's right that the team hasn't done enough to improve, sadly. And the great irony is that now we can do so by shipping him out.

I hope that money isn't really the stumbling block after we parted with cash for Conine and Burnitz... not to mention that Angelos is sitting on new money from XM, the Expos, Segui, Cordova, Daal, Sosa and Palmeiro, most of which really hasn't been reinvested.

Lastly, btw, I'm new here. Hi all.

by punkrawka on Dec 30, 2005 5:46 AM EST reply actions

A sequel

Manny is ... Joey Belle II!

Os fans are very understanding and supportive of players with personality problems. Look at how well the original Joey Belle was treated. And Alomar ... and Mr. Steroids last season.

I'm glad I'm a Rays fan now.

by 3RunHomer on Dec 30, 2005 7:39 AM EST reply actions

Yikes..this bad dream of a season won't go away...

Didn't Tejada and his people look at the situation before signing up for 6 yrs in Baltimore?
I think it was Albert Einstein that once said "the true definition of stupidity is repeating the same thing the same way and expecting different results"..or something like that.
Shame on him to think that the 6 years before he signed here were going to be any different than the last two have been.
He's the one that tanked on the team last year..and basically went up there swatting at flies from July 1 to the end of the year.
How many freakin people did he leave stranded in scoring position from the All Star break to the end of the year?
This is one of those TO or Ron Artest moments, where the spoiled little multi million dollar athlete, that has a huge guaranteed multi year contract that nobody held a gun to his head to sign, wants to go somewhere else because the big bad front office is not doing things his way. Can you imagine Cal or Brooks or Murray acting like this?
This guy is one of the biggest crybaby a-holes in sports right now.
They made a play for Konerko, but he was overpaid to stay in Chicago.
They made a serious play for Ryan, and offered him what he was worth, but Miggy's new fave in Toronto offered him about 25 million more than he was worth.
AJ- same thing.
Millwood....gimme a break. He's worth 12 miilion a year???? I think not.
Flanagan is not going to overspend for long term contracts. They are not going to give away players with potential to play everyday at this level just to pacifiy the Miggy Child.
I still say forget him.
Trade him to KC, or Colorado, or anywhere for that matter...and let him get buried there.
He was one of the main reasons behind the collapse last year..and now he's going to demand to be traded because he's unhappy? I hate MLB...that's what makes the NFL the dominant league that it is in this country. The players have to play..take salary reductions..no guaranteed money...and they have to keep their yaps shut.
Miggy, I got an idea for ya...
Why done't you just shut the hell up, do your freakin job, and knock in some runs. That's your job. Let the FO do theirs, and in time maybe you'll see that when everyone works together as a TEAM, then we succeed. But when primadonna millionaires are so unhappy that they have to run their mouths, and demand to be relocated because the boss isn't doing what I want to be done, then we all suffer.
He's a grade A ahole, and that's that.
Oh, and by the way, Manny? No thanks. That's like trading in your mother in law for a man eating shark.

"What's my secret for winning? That's easy. Pitching, defense, and three run homers" Earl Weaver

by elktonfan on Dec 30, 2005 8:35 AM EST reply actions

re:

Half the people on this website jumped ship on a daily basis the second half of the season. Give me a break.

by Awesome Mike Awesome on Dec 30, 2005 9:59 AM EST up reply actions

AMA...

Why don't you give me a break. You're going to compare fans with players? Pleeeeeeeeze!
I don't get paid 12 miilion a year to love my team, I do it because I want to. So what if fans are disgruntled..that's why they're called Fans!
By the way, that is short for fanatic, right?
Miggy is a whining crybay millionaire baseball player. Period. He shoots his team mates in the ass with B12..which came from God knows where. He blows for three straight months, effectively stealing his lofty paycheck. He bashes the front office in the press which I believe blindsided them in the media...and now he's ruinning around acting like poor pitiful Miggy saying that he only wants to play for a winner, and that we aren't worthy of his efforts or whatever because we're not making efforts to trade him, or improve the club.
Sometimes Mike you're just out of touch.
You think because FANS we're pissed about the losing that it's ok for the team's one true star to tank it, give up and play like shit for three months?
You had better find another hobby because you ain't got a clue.

"What's my secret for winning? That's easy. Pitching, defense, and three run homers" Earl Weaver

by elktonfan on Dec 30, 2005 11:12 AM EST up reply actions

re:

Do you not think when Tejada signed with the Orioles they made some assurances that they would be competitive? Instead they've signed sucky player after sucky player and surprised sucked and lost. Tejada is probably PO'd and said so. Of course, it can't just be that, it must be some major character flaw and self-righteous nonsense on the part of genius fans who never get PO'd and shoot their mouths off. Of course.

by Awesome Mike Awesome on Dec 30, 2005 11:44 AM EST up reply actions

OK, we'll try this one more time....

Fans can say whatever they want because we choose to be fans.
Players have the right to honor their contracts and support the team...and if they choose not to do so than they have the right to be traded to Kansas City or Colorado, or wherever.
He's a crybaby Mike..he didn't perform, and he helped the team suck. In fact, he led the league in GIDP, right?
I'd feel a little differently if he'd had a second half even close to his first half. But he didn't he mailed it in.
And I hate guys that get paid millions to play a GAME and they don't do as they are being paid to do.
Period.

"What's my secret for winning? That's easy. Pitching, defense, and three run homers" Earl Weaver

by elktonfan on Dec 30, 2005 11:52 AM EST up reply actions

re:

That's nice. I've read that same post about four hundred times already. However, over the summer and through the offseason I've also read a similar number of posts about so and so giving up on the Orioles and becoming a Nationals fan because the front office sucks so hard! And indeed, the front office does suck so hard, but being that Tejada actually like works for them, don't you think he has at least some credibility in saying hey I don't want to work for this sucky front office. Well, of course you don't because everything is black and white in your world. I doubt when he signed they told him "oh yeah we'll keep sucking for years!" Certainly he could've taken a look around and said hey, the Orioles have sucked for years, maybe I should go elsewhere, and certainly he had a terrible final three months, and he doesn't look all that good right now. Unfortunately it's not as cut and dry as you seem to believe it is, and frankly to believe such is ignorant and childish.

by Awesome Mike Awesome on Dec 30, 2005 11:59 AM EST up reply actions

Agreed...

It is the job of anyone who cares about a baseball team to demand that they do something to be better. Tejada wants to win, and that is a trait that all players should have. Everyone, right down to Joe Benchplayer should want to win. It is not a question of "did he suck?" Yeah, he didn't have as good of a year as you may have wanted him to have...But should he be happy with a bad team staying bad (or even getting worse)? No!

This is an all-star caliber player who wants to play winning ball. That ain't a personality flaw son...thats being competitive.

Wanting to trade him to a bad club out of spite is downright ignorant. Your first thought as a fan if you want him traded should be "where is the place we can send him that will give us the best players in return." So start thinking like a fan.

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 30, 2005 2:27 PM EST up reply actions

Re: elktonfan was blowing offf steam

At least that's how I read his comments. But anyhow...

Gee Dad, thanks for the advice. You and Eddie Haskell seem to be full of advice on how to be a fan! Me and Gilbert and Whitey were all confused as we discussed this in a zillion threads before this. Even Wally and Lumpy couldn't help us out too much. It sure is swell having you and Eddie to help us out.

"We are coming back strong next year ... I know you have heard that tune before, but this time it will literally come true." Peter Angelos 09/2005

by drj on Dec 31, 2005 10:20 AM EST up reply actions

talking past each other... somewhat

I've avoided getting involved because I thought AMA and elktonfan were kind of talking past each other. elktonfan was saying the level of commitment between fans and players aren't comparable because players have paid contracts, fans are not. AMA kind of dodged elktonfan's point by responding that players should be allowed to check out on a team, it's not a black and white world. It's not a black and white world, but contract are very black and white. Tejada should put in a trade clause to protect him if thought the O's wouldn't get better. This a team that has sucked for how many years in a row now. The team continuing to suck in the third year of contract should have at least been in a scenario in his mind that he could have addressed. The FO's office commitment is not issue, I think they're very committed to winning. Unfortunately, it's a question of talent level in the FO that's holding the O's back. Talent level in the FO is something his agent and himself should have evaluated when the O's made assurances they would be competitive. If the O's were holding a fire sale, then I could understand Tejada's committment complaint, but the FO is trying hard to field a winner. Tejada has a contract, the professional thing to is play it out without complaining even if the FO sucks. Like I said before, the world is not black and white but contracts are very black and white. Fans are not under the same professional obligation. I understand Tejada wants to win and I can very much understand his frustration, but he signed a contract that pays him boatloads of money. The professional thing to do is to be a team player.

by birdman on Dec 31, 2005 2:04 PM EST up reply actions

something over at baseballmusings.com

MT - "I am not asking for a team of superstars, I only want a good group that helps me to win,'' he said.

David Pinto - "Miguel, it's supposed to be "help us to win." You're a member of a team. Believe it or not, the Orioles don't exist to get you a championship."

I thought it was a good point. In the comments section, someone mentioned how Dontrelle Willis has kept his mouth shut despite the firesale. Although someone else pointed that the Marlins will be good soon with all their prospects whereas the O's will still suck. I don't know how certain it is that the Marlins will be good again quick but it's good to see that Willis is a team player.

by birdman on Dec 31, 2005 2:23 PM EST up reply actions

Help me win?

I was struck by that remark as well. That and the B12/phone card business has soured me on Miggy. I say take the Clement/Manny deal while he still has top value. I'm having my doubts about him next year regardless of where he plays.

by el gordo on Dec 31, 2005 5:25 PM EST up reply actions

me too.

I'm starting to wonder if Tejada's other side is starting to come out. And while I expect he'll continue to put up good numbers, I'm not sure he'll be viewed the same way in the future after his behavior this offseason.

I expect they will trade him in the next few weeks, just because sooner or later, you have to want to be sending out people who are excited to be playing for you. It would be hard to continue to "build around Tejada" if all of your additions and up-and-comings know that his mind is elsewhere.

by zknower on Jan 1, 2006 11:16 AM EST up reply actions

re:

Fans are not under the same professional obligation. I understand Tejada wants to win and I can very much understand his frustration, but he signed a contract that pays him boatloads of money. The professional thing to do is to be a team player.

And surely if Tejada started to suck the Orioles would never ever trade him to another team??? Ask Mike Lowell and a million billion other guys.

by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jan 1, 2006 12:10 PM EST up reply actions

trade

Why is it fair for a team to trade a sorry ass player but a good player on a losing team who requests a trade is a seen as a brat? Because the contract he signed allows the O's to trade him but says squat about what the O's must do if they don't win. Like I said before, Tejada had an opportunity to protect himself by installing a trade clause if the O's sucked. Mike Sweeney did it with Royals, Tejada could have done the same. Given the O's recent history, it would have been completely understandable and the O's were so desperate to sign Tejada, they would have agreed to it. Teams put in clauses in contracts to protect themselves (e.g. morality clauses, injury clauses, etc.) frequently, there was nothing stopping Tejada from doing the same.

by birdman on Jan 1, 2006 2:01 PM EST up reply actions

re

Well God I must have missed the part where Tejada didn't show up for spring training. Outstanding foresight on the part of the Bird Man. Spare me the contract business until Tejada breaches his, please.

by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jan 1, 2006 2:13 PM EST up reply actions

I agree

Please birdman, stop brining up germain points that run counter to AMA's points.

"We are coming back strong next year ... I know you have heard that tune before, but this time it will literally come true." Peter Angelos 09/2005

by drj on Jan 1, 2006 2:27 PM EST up reply actions

re:

Well until somebody here can do more than wave an unviolated contract in my face, I'm going to have to say maybe Tejada has a point somewhere and isn't a completely amoral dickbag. Call me crazy, but it was only six months ago when everyone here had a hard on for what a team player~! and team leader~! Tejada was, and as we know things in life always turn on a dime like that. But if everyone here is content to read everything in the simplest possible terms, then feel free. And please come back with another sanctimonious "retort" because those are always productive. Sorry to inject some reality into this sorry ass hater party you all have going on.

by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jan 1, 2006 2:32 PM EST up reply actions

AMA

First of all. Why are you so defensive? If somebody disagrees with your opinion, you insult them which is really annoying. We're all here because we love talking about baseball. People are going to disagree. You're posts always have a tone of.... bitterness, not quite sure what the right the word is. You definitely like to reply substantively and with a subtle insult (or sometimes not so subtle insult). Chill man.

Now that's out of the way. You're right that Tejada hasn't violated his contract yet but my point is that he doesn't want to honor it anymore which is lame. Yes, the team is losing but I don't think a player should be able to complain himself off a losing team. He understood that risk when he signed the contract.

by birdman on Jan 1, 2006 3:57 PM EST up reply actions

Agreed.

While Tejada isn't technically violating his contract, he is certainly acting is a way that's detrimental to the team right now. Yeah, we all thought he was a leader for the past year and a half. Turns out we were wrong.

Oh, and don't waste your time asking AMA to tone down. He's a troll. He lives for coming over here and hurling insults at people.

by zknower on Jan 2, 2006 12:24 AM EST up reply actions

Well

I just wanna squeeze this in some more to see what happnes so.... Tejada isn't a leader like we thought he was. He has every right to complain because we haven't done anything but a true leader on a team would keep their mouth shut and play out their contract and quietly suggest to the FO and manager making improvments. Not demanding a trade and refusing to respond to your manager. Sam seems like a nice man just return his phone call Miggy, for chrissakes your making the team better not worse, now someone respond to this! I want more mased up posts!

by Larry Bigbie3 on Jan 2, 2006 1:29 AM EST up reply actions

Whoops

worse not better.

by Larry Bigbie3 on Jan 2, 2006 1:30 AM EST up reply actions

Tejada...

has never once said he would not honor his contract. He asked to be traded. He hasn't made any noise about sitting out spring training if not traded or anything like that.

Yeah, he's been whiney and its unprofessional not to return his manager's phone calls, but the O's made plenty of promises to him about being competive before he signed here, and they haven't lived up to that. I understand why he's pissed, even if I don't agree with all of his tactics.

by rebop on Jan 1, 2006 6:05 PM EST up reply actions

Tejada

"Tejada has never once said he would not honor his contract."

I know but it's this, "if I HAVE to play for the Orioles, I guess I'll play for them" garbage that pisses me off. I'm sure Flanagan and Beattie made plenty of promises of being competitive but did Tejada think the O's would become competitive because Beattie and Flanagan said so. As I've said before, this is why Tejada should have asked for a trade clause connected to the number of club wins. Flanagan and Duquette (and Beattie before him) are trying their best to field a winning team. Unless, Tejada wants to take over the GM role for them, he needs to shut up and be glad that the O's are paying him $12-13 million to play baseball.

by birdman on Jan 1, 2006 8:27 PM EST up reply actions

I'm plenty PO'd at Tejada too...

don't get me wrong. But I do think Mike has a point that the whole situation is a bit more complex than this just being a case of Tejada being a whiney, millionaire superstar. Most of my anger is directed at Angelos, who IMO is the real villian in this story. After last season, I would want off this team too. I think it has finally sunk into Tejada that the Orioles are just never going to be a winner with Angelos as owner, and Tejada just doesn't like to lose.

I also see trading Tejada our best chance of making this team better in the long term, so I'd just say goodbye and good luck to him. No need for hard feelings.

by rebop on Jan 2, 2006 11:34 AM EST up reply actions

Bad Situation All Around

But Tejada is making it worse. In my mind it's two entirely separate issues between the incompetence of the organization and Tejada's PUBLIC behavior. Obviously Tejada has every right to be unhappy about the direction of the team and their recent moves, as we all are. But expressing it the way he's doing in public is completely unacceptable. It is immature, idiotic and frankly an insult to Orioles fans and the city. If we do get stuck with him for 2006 I for one am booing that crybaby at every game I attend for acting like such a jackass. We deserve better than this kinda crap.

Let's also bear in mind that Tejada was as responsible as anyone on the O's for their folding in the second half of 2005. His decreased production and GIDP had as devastating an effect on our chances as either the morbid pitching or even the Palmeiro morale killer. Have you once heard this crybaby accept any responsibility for his own shortcomings? Hell no.

I can't wait till we get rid of that bastard. I just hope we get something good.

by Jonnypops on Jan 2, 2006 12:14 PM EST up reply actions

I agree with you...

but, if I try to look at it from Tejada's point of view, I can understand why he's handled it this way. Looking at his actions I have concluded two things: #1 he really wants to be traded, #2 his preferred destination is Boston. Everything he has done has been smartly calculated to achieve those two goals.

Sure, if he had been more professional about it, he could have quietly gone to the front office and asked to be traded...and front office would likely have said "no." By doing this in public and refusing to talk to the front office, Tejada has maximized his chances of actually getting traded. And his public outbursts have been suspiciously timed to coincide with major Red Sox happenings.

I'm not saying I approve of what Tejada is doing. I won't even pretend he has the best interests of the Orioles at heart. And as an Orioles fan, his actions piss me off. But on a personal level I understand why he's handled it the way he has, even if I don't like it. And I can't pretend there isn't plenty of blame to be laid at the feet of the Oriole "brain trust." If a guy is standing on the deck of the Titanic, the honorable thing to do is say "Women and children first," but its hard to really judge a guy too harshly for trying to grab a seat on a lifeboat.

What really stinks is that our front office has a chance to turn this unfortunate turn of events into an opportunity to improve the club now and in the future, but they will likely make a deal that brings us nothing but mediocrities like Benson and Lugo.

by rebop on Jan 2, 2006 4:46 PM EST up reply actions

I said it before...

...I'll say it again. If we get that crap in exchange for a four year contract, which at $12 mil/year is a bargain by today's standards, on one of baseball's premier players; WE ARE MARCHING ON THE WAREHOUSE WITH TORCHES, TAR & FEATHERS. Old school style.

But on a more intellectual note, Tejada is not standing on the deck of the Titanic. True, the FO did not land a starter yet this offseason, but they have made some good moves to improve the young pitching in the organization. Mazzone & Hernandez are actually just about two of the best moves you could make for developing the young pitching. As for the not getting a starter the two "aces" that were out there, Burnett & Millwood, were both were flawed, and both went for way to damn much money. So I can't be too angry about it. And who knows, we could still hold our breath for The Weave! Not an ace, but he could fill that empty spot okay.

by Jonnypops on Jan 2, 2006 6:42 PM EST up reply actions

the boat is sinking

"But on a personal level I understand why he's handled it the way he has, even if I don't like it. And I can't pretend there isn't plenty of blame to be laid at the feet of the Oriole "brain trust." If a guy is standing on the deck of the Titanic, the honorable thing to do is say "Women and children first," but its hard to really judge a guy too harshly for trying to grab a seat on a lifeboat.
"

I think everyone can understand his frustration on a personal level. Last season was a nightmare beyond belief. And I think you make a good point about it's hard to judge a guy too harshly for trying to grab a seat on a lifeboat. But I don't think Tejada is just any ole passenger on this ship. The O's hired him to "captain" the ship (he signed a 6 year contract not some two year deal) and pay him handsomely to do so. When he got aboard the ship, he damn well knew it was in trouble. If he was planning on jumping ship when it more trouble, he should asked for his own lifeboat when his signed his contract but he didn't. Didn't the captain of the Titanic also go down with the ship? Obviously people can change their mind. Tejada doens't want to captain this ship no more. He's trying his best to piss off management to force a trade. OK, but I think I can fairly call you a me-first chump if you do this given the circumstances.

by birdman on Jan 2, 2006 6:43 PM EST up reply actions

re:

"Hey, by the way, we have zero plans to get any better. Yeah, we're pretty much just signing you so people can keep pointing at you and saying we did something for the remainder of your contract. Yeah, you sign here. Thank you."

"I don't see why you reporters keep confusing Brooks and me. Can't you see that we wear different numbers?" - Frank Robinson

by Scott Christ on Jan 3, 2006 4:13 AM EST up reply actions

Again, I agree, but...

if you look at Tejada's tenure here, I think he vastly over-estimated what he was going to be able to do for this organization. He came in here and announced to his new teammates "the losing is over," but by the end of his first year here he was crying to his agent "I am not a loser!" Then it looked like maybe things had turned around in 2005 before things got worse than he probably ever imagined, including being tied up in a steroid scandal.

I believe Tejada really thought that he would be able to single handedly turn this organization around when he got here, and after two years the realization that he can't has sunk in, and its depressing for him. When he signed his contract, I'm sure jumping ship was the furthest thing from his mind because it never occurred to him that he wouldn't be able to turn Baltimore into a winner. I bet the guy never played for a losing team in his life before 2004, and he figured that was because Miguel Tejada was a "winner." Now he has been on a losing team for two years, he takes the losses personally, and is starting to feel like maybe Miguel Tejada isn't the winner he thought he was. His ego has taken a big hit. Under those circumstances, I might be thinking a "change of scenery" would be the best thing for me as well.

All that said, I would rather him say, "I promised to bring a winner to the fans of Baltimore, and I plan to keep my promise." But the guy's a human being with faults just like the rest of us. I also believe that trading Tejada may actually be the best thing for this team right now (provided the front office doesn't screw up too badly, which is a big assumption), so I'm really not too pissed.

by rebop on Jan 3, 2006 10:15 AM EST up reply actions

Amen, I say to that Amen

This issue has been mentiond in these Tejada threads. Namely that he is saying what suffering O's fans have been saying for years, and there is no denying that Peter Angelos is at the heart of the issue.

My only recourse as a long time O's fan is to live through these bad times and hope better days are coming. It's not like this really affects my life, so it's a waste of energy to get too distraught. I can understand Tejada's frustration, as he's a lot closer to it all than me. But he still should have worked the trade issue quietly.

In the long run, I can only hope that Big Pete doesn't hang onto the team, a la Carl Pohad, until he's 90 something.

"We are coming back strong next year ... I know you have heard that tune before, but this time it will literally come true." Peter Angelos 09/2005

by drj on Jan 2, 2006 1:06 PM EST up reply actions

Miggy

I understand his frustration, but what I don't like is the example it sets to other players. Basically, if you sign a big long-term contract and your team isn't winning, you can demand a trade to a proven winner.

Do you think the majority of fans will boo him? I bought his jersey in the beginning of last season. If he's traded, that was a waste of $$.

by chilly721 on Dec 30, 2005 10:17 AM EST up reply actions

yeah, i'm burning my tejada jersey in the street

hey, does anyone know where i can get a brooks robinson jersey? i want the old school, baltimore on the front, road jersey, number 5 on the back, no name. i've been looking forever and i can't find one that isn't "authentic" and costs $275. i just want a replica jersey, maybe $80-100... i figure he probably won't get traded, so it's safe to buy.

by joet on Dec 30, 2005 10:26 AM EST up reply actions

Re: Thought on Manny?

Here's a guy who makes $20 million a year and whines about wanting out of a winning Boston team for the past three or four years. Why will we get anything different in Baltimore?

"We are coming back strong next year ... I know you have heard that tune before, but this time it will literally come true." Peter Angelos 09/2005

by drj on Dec 30, 2005 10:37 AM EST up reply actions

Redundancy

I just that figure if Manny gets his wish and is let out of Boston, then at some point he is going to have to shut up about being traded. This might be a little optimistic on my part...but how much crowing can a guy do?

However even if he does keep bitching if and when he's in Baltimore, he'll be a lot easier to tune out than Tejada...being that at this point he even has a catch phrase associated with his behavior. He'll also most likely be outperforming Tejada and therefore easier to let all that "being Manny" stuff slide.

Ramirez makes no claims to be the leader of any team. He is what he is...an incredible natural hitter, and doesn't seem to aspire to be much more, and why should he? With Tejada we had a supposed clubhouse leader who did a crappy job of holding morale together in an admittedly very tough season. However regardless of how tough it was, that is the hallmark of a leader...grace under pressure...and Tejada displayed none of it. His production went way south. He was implicated, fairly or unfairly, in a scandal. He got in publicized clubhouse arguments with other players on more than one occasion.

Although I like Tejada, I have always been skeptical of his leadership skills. Just knowing what I know about life, normally a good leader is not a guy who is always talking. Bosses, CEOs and Presidents are generally not known for being chatterboxes. For better or worse that sort of constantly talking, high energy personality often comes in for a lot scutiny and often ill will from the people around it, since chatterboxes draw too much attention to themslves and therefore often become lightning rods. I think a more slow, steady, measured leader like a Varitek or Konerko does better for a clubhouse than a Tejada, regardless of how entertaining a Tejada can be. The good news with Manny is he isn't pretending to be anyone's leader...he just hits, and hits, and hits.

by Jonnypops on Dec 30, 2005 11:17 AM EST up reply actions

Gotham Baseball 4 Way Rumor

A number of papers are referencing a 4 way trade involving the O's, Mets, Devil Rays, and Red Sox - which I found at Gotham Baseball: http://www.gothambaseball.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1945.

The net result is:

Mets would send Lastings Milledge, Anderson Hernandez, Aaron Heilman and Xavier Nady to Tampa Bay for Lugo, Huff and Baez. New York would then send Lugo, Huff, Kris Benson and Cliff Floyd to Baltimore for Tejada, and then send Tejada to the Red Sox for Manny Ramirez.

I'm not sure how this would make sense for the O's, giving them Floyd and Huff to go with Conine, Burnitz, and Gibbons (too many of the same time of players for too few positions). Plus, settling for Benson for the rotation when we could have had Prior, or even Clement, seems like a bad move as well. The good thing about this rumor and the Ramirez/Clement rumor is that we hold on to Bedard. That would allow us to still trade him for something useful if need be.

by delbird on Dec 30, 2005 9:21 AM EST reply actions

That site...

is never right. Good luck with this "trade" ever happening.

"What's my secret for winning? That's easy. Pitching, defense, and three run homers" Earl Weaver

by elktonfan on Dec 30, 2005 11:16 AM EST up reply actions

Makes no sense

The only winner in that trade is Boston.

TB is going to want more than that for all three of it's players.

Why on earth would the Mets do that- okay, Ramirez is a real nice bump up on Floyd, and (for 2006) I guess you want Baez over Heilman (without looking at the money)- but to get those two bumps, you are trading away your only elite prospect, a mid level guy in Hernandez, a solid starting pitcher in Benson, and Nady, who you just gave up Cameron to get and who is your starting RF). This would decimate the Mets system of prospects and their most tradeable young major leaguer, and leave them with the same holes in RF and 2B (actually, RF would be worse), with no way to fill those holes.

And, you've detailed why that doesn't work for Baltimore, unless they put other deals in place for two of those corner outfielder/DH's.

And why do you want to trade Bedard?

by johnnyc @ Camden Chat on Dec 30, 2005 11:50 AM EST up reply actions

Bedard

It's not that I want Bedard to be traded but that he seems to be the chip other teams are after. I'd trade him only if we were presented with a great offer that filled a hole or upgraded a current position significantly. If that doesn't happen, I'd sit back and watch him develop this year under Mazzone.

by delbird on Dec 30, 2005 12:21 PM EST up reply actions

i don't have a big problem with this deal,

but i don't like taking on another $17 million in salary. i know the orioles are making more money than most, if not all, teams out there, but manny and clement make like $30 million combined. i'd much rather take manny and either jon papelbon or jon lester from the red sox. they are two of the best young pitching prospects in the game, they cost next to nothing, and they are both going to be really good in 2007. i haven't seen lester pitch, but papelbon looks like a bulldog on the mound. anyway, since i don't think we're building for next year anyway, why not grab a young, cheap, stud pitcher instead of a guy like clement who has seen his best days, and frankly, they weren't all that good.

by joet on Dec 30, 2005 9:25 AM EST reply actions

I'd do it as well,

But I don't think I'd DH Ramirez. I'd put Gibbons at 1B, Burnitz in RF, Ramirez in LF, and keep DHing Javy. Conine on the bench.

by therobotian on Dec 30, 2005 10:16 AM EST reply actions

Problems

Who plays shortstop, and will the gap between that person and Tejada really be smaller than the gap between random average-ish OF (Conine/Burnitz, charitably) and Ramirez?

Can't this team do SOMETHING to build for the future? You've got to get at least one top prospect or young major leaguer with a relatively high ceiling if you deal Tejada, otherwise this is just a travesty.

by Joltin Joe Orsulak on Dec 30, 2005 10:17 AM EST reply actions

Re: Problems

I agree, trading Tejada for two players who are both older than he is makes little sense. Manny will be 34 this spring and Clement is already 31. I'm not saying he isn't one of the best hitters in baseball, or that Mazzone can't do something with Clement's "untapped potential," but seriously, how does this help us for the future at all? With or without Manny/Clement were probably going to struggle in '06 anyway, I'd almost rather keep the whiner and continue to build around him until we're ready to win ('08?) win and he shuts his mouth.

by Caymen on Dec 30, 2005 11:12 AM EST up reply actions

The only problem with that is....

He won't shut his mouth. If he was going to shut his mouth, he would have done so already. He's a cancer, and he's gotta go. Just send where he'll have minimal impact to a loser worse than us, and teach him that it's not OK to be a crybaby.

"What's my secret for winning? That's easy. Pitching, defense, and three run homers" Earl Weaver

by elktonfan on Dec 30, 2005 11:14 AM EST up reply actions

I hear the sentiment...

...but the FO has to do what's best for the team. And although I wouldn't mind seeing Miguel in Royal Blue after this month of BS, I just don't think those crappy (or crappier) teams have what we need. I mean, that's why they're crappy.

There's good stuff out there with the BoSox, ChiSox, Cubbies, Mets, Angels etc. And I do not agree with this sentiment of not trading within the division. If it's a good deal like this Manny/Clement thing, I say do it yesterday already. If I was a Red Sox fan and they did that trade I would be highly pissed off. And that should be the measure of an intradivisional trade.

It's a lopsided trade...and it makes us stronger and them weaker. The only real advantage I see out of it for them is that they get a happier Ortiz and a new face for their franchise. In other words it seems wholly a PR move, which they really need right now after losing Damon. Whereas we get their big gun cleanup hitter and arguably their best starter from last year (at least until he got bonked in the head by that line drive). I'll say it again...what the hell are we waiting for?

by Jonnypops on Dec 30, 2005 11:49 AM EST up reply actions

Nah

I like the trade for the O's, but it's a pretty good move for the Red Sox, when you consider the salary implications.

The Red Sox get the bump up from Alex Cora to Tejada- that's as big a jump as can be made at the major league level. It costs them the drop of Ramirez to whoever they get to fill his place (lot easier to get a mid level outfielder), and Clement, whom they clearly want to move. They can probably scratch together as good a lineup for this season with the trade, and next offseason they have that much more cash to work with (or, they can use it now or in season to get players off of teams that can't afford them).

by johnnyc @ Camden Chat on Dec 30, 2005 11:54 AM EST up reply actions

True...

...the salary discrepancy is nothing to sneeze at. But the O's also getting some cash has been thrown around in some of these rumors.

by Jonnypops on Dec 30, 2005 12:00 PM EST up reply actions

Well

depending on the cash, it's still a solid deal for Boston, especially if the cash is for this year- Boston can't really spend the savings on anyone else this year anyway (hello, Sosa in Boston!).

by johnnyc @ Camden Chat on Dec 30, 2005 12:35 PM EST up reply actions

Re:

Do you have details on the cash? I've heard that the RS are unwilling to pay a portion of the contracts because they are already in the hole with Renteria to the tune of $11 million. The RS want to unload Clement and his $19 million, because they don't think they'll solve the mental block. Here's an interesting chat on Clement: Would the Sox really deal him?.

"We are coming back strong next year ... I know you have heard that tune before, but this time it will literally come true." Peter Angelos 09/2005

by drj on Dec 30, 2005 11:11 PM EST up reply actions

Definitely do it

When Tejada first piped up a couple of weeks ago, my first reaction was that Baltimore should just trade him, Javy, and whoever else they have of value away for prospects and young major leaguers, forget about 2006 (which looks like a rough year anyway, between the inability to add anyone significant and what has been going on with the other teams in the division), and look to 2007 and beyond.

But, now I have a better idea- take this deal. See where you are at the end of June. If the year is going as badly as expected, you now have two more chits to throw on the mid-season market- and Manny won't have his 10 and 5 rights anymore. Clement and Manny might get a bigger return in July than Tejada will now, especially if teams like the Dodgers and the Angels are in contention- they have tons of young talent. Hell, at that point someone might take Burnitz and Lopez away as well- get a decent return for those four, maybe move Mora, Lugo, some other guys on the wrong side of 30- and suddenly, you have a young team to look forward to in 2007 (plus a lot of money for free agents).

by johnnyc @ Camden Chat on Dec 30, 2005 11:41 AM EST reply actions

Great point...

...we could get so much for Ramirez from one of those lots-o'-pitching/little offense teams in the middle of penant race.

by Jonnypops on Dec 30, 2005 11:53 AM EST up reply actions

it's so sad

that we're already discussing what high priced talent we're going to drop at the trade deadline next year, instead of what one or two pieces we might add to help in the penant race. i'm embarrassed to be an orioles fan right now. i can't believe how far we've fallen. this is the first season we're going into that i know we're going to suck. every other year i'm at least a little optimistic. this year, we're just going to be really bad, and everyone knows it. going to 20+ games next year wearing a bag on my head is going to be annoying.

by joet on Dec 30, 2005 12:09 PM EST up reply actions

For what it's worth

It's not all about how the organization sucks (which it does), the division is a killer. Put the O's in the NL West, and you would be thinking in terms of one or two more pieces. But, with NY and Boston, and suddenly Toronto flush with cash, and a Tampa team that is young and cheap and can hit with anyone and more young talent on the way, it's just hard to see what they really can do to make a huge differnce for this year.

That's why I say, make the trade, hold out a little hope for a miracle run, but be in a position to dramatically improve the organization for 2007 and 2008.

by johnnyc @ Camden Chat on Dec 30, 2005 12:38 PM EST up reply actions

Another Rumor

Here's a White Sox rumor: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2005/12/white_sox_make_.html#comments

I'm intrigued by the option that includes McCarthy. He seems like a younger, healthier version of Prior (potentially). Plus the White Sox have some young talent (J.Owens, J.Fields). Juan Uribe's stats were better than I expected when I looked them up. I don't see either deal happening but, again, McCarthy would be a good pick up.

by delbird on Dec 30, 2005 12:44 PM EST reply actions

The O's Suck?

Every body says the O's suck for next year so I guess they have to suck. But let me just play the Devil's advocate for a moment. Say the O's make the Clement/Manny trade. If Clement has a career average season next year thats 6 or 7 more wins which brings us to .500. Is it preposterous to expect another 5 more wins from Cabrera and the mighty(too valuable to trade) Bedard given Mazzone. Thats 85,86 wins and we haven't discussed Manny's effect. Manny being Manny has never seamed to bother his teamates just the front office. And it never seems to effect his production. The presence of him in the line up will bring Mora closer to his 2004 numbers and Gibbons if he stays healthy could have a career year. I remember the positive effect of a sub par year from Belle on 4 or 5 players around him. How many wins could this add. Boston will not be as good a team this year(even with Tejada) and the age and durabilty of the Yankee starters is suspect(as well as the size of Giambi's head). Toronto has indeed improved so that means it will require less wins to take the division, with every body knocking each other off. We may not make the playoffs but it's reasonable to expect us to be competitive. But they have to do something now! Other wise we're looking at less than 2 mill. in attendence next year and the only positive effect that could have might be to convince Angelos to get out while the getting's good.

by el gordo on Dec 30, 2005 1:47 PM EST reply actions

no, we're going to suck

we couldn't hit last year and we won't hit this year. we couldn't pitch last year and we lost our best arm. we're going to suck and suck hard. i hate to say it, but that's the way it's going to go. of course, i'll probably be saying just the opposite when we win 2 out of our first 3, but for now, it's sucksville.

by joet on Dec 30, 2005 2:24 PM EST up reply actions

Not to mention...

that you factor in the division getting better costing other teams wins...but not the O's.

by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 30, 2005 2:30 PM EST up reply actions

No one can say what will happen.

The Yanks should have run away last year and they didn't.

The Os had no right to blow away the division for half the year, and they did.

Ergo:

Toronto may "seem" to be the most improved team. The Yankees may "seem" to have it locked up on paper. But that's why they make the teams play the games. Because a paper team is nothing like the real thing.

While I think the Os have a long way to go, I hardly think we're going to fall behind TB in '06. and with Clement/Martinez, I think we could be comptetitive if a few breaks fall our way. Clement-Cabrera-Bedard-Chen-Rodriguez could be better, but it's not going to be a disaster, either. I certainly like that trade, if it could ever happen. And I have no problem with Miggy in Boston. They're in the midst of imploding, and they're hardly going to be the powerhouse they've been in the past.

*note: AMA will now comment on this last point and tell me several reasons why I'm wrong.

by zknower on Dec 30, 2005 2:49 PM EST up reply actions

Well

Manny is great no doubt but he'll be worth less w/o the incredible offense around him (he'll still be good and better than Tejada) And the FO isn't going to do this trade, to big and scary.

by Larry Bigbie3 on Dec 31, 2005 12:18 PM EST up reply actions

Stop pouting

Our team ERA last year was better than Boston's and just a tad behind the Yankees. Our offense was pretty good the first part of last year when opponants thought Sosa would hit. Manny will hit. Obviously we didn't hit as well as those two teams but we did finish 11th out of 30 and ahead of Toronto.

by el gordo on Dec 30, 2005 2:42 PM EST reply actions

re:

We scored 729 runs. Toronto scored 775. The only teams in the AL we scored more runs than were Detroit, Kansas City, Seattle and Minnesota.

"I don't see why you reporters keep confusing Brooks and me. Can't you see that we wear different numbers?" - Frank Robinson

by Scott Christ on Dec 30, 2005 4:34 PM EST up reply actions

why is everyone

dead set on Miggy being traded to teams like redSox, cubs. If the O's do anything right they'll look for a team with great prospects and try to get them. I like to see the O's try and get Upton from Tampa or even wait til Az signs his bother and get him. I'm not set on the O's getting an older player if we're rebuilding.. why? so we can waste money? Manny is the best player out there(ok Hitter) but he's not going to get the O's to the promise land alone, nor would adding clement. If Flanny does one thing right he'll great young players with promise.

PLay like you want it, Live like you need it

by merdon1332000 on Dec 30, 2005 9:38 PM EST reply actions