My growing concern with Leo Mazzone

by SC on Nov 12, 2006 7:39 PM EST in News Comment 14 comments

When we hired Leo Mazzone, I said that it was great news and to argue otherwise would be stretching for an argument. I stand by that, as it occured, for the time.

However, we're a season in, and there are two things Leo Mazzone has done.

Coached the second-worst pitching staff in baseball, ahead of only the Royals (5.35 team ERA, 1.54 team WHIP).
Repeatedly led to the acquisitions of crap pitchers that he's coached in the past.

With Jaret Wright added to Jim Brower and Russ Ortiz, what does this say about Leo's influence? Erik Bedard finally broke out, but many sources have attributed that success to Kris Benson working with Bedard on his changeup. Whether that's true or not is not for me to say, really, but it's what we've heard.

Cabrera regressed in 2006. So did Kris Benson. So did Rodrigo Lopez and Bruce Chen, who both imploded under Leo's watch.

Are we stuck in a position with a legendary pitching coach whose staffs usually contained Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz, and who isn't going to have much success without them?

It's no secret that those guys helped those teams, but Leo's reputation was heavy, and I've never been one to argue with it. He got some good years out of retreads and nobodies. But his first season in Baltimore was an unquestionable disaster. His pitching staff was an almost complete failure.

The talent wasn't there, but Atlanta staffs weren't always stocked with great pitchers beyond the big three, and they usually got along just fine.

Can he again rejuvenate Jaret Wright? Can he be the guy to straighten Cabrera out? Will he be able to piece together a bullpen? Are you really going to use the "Leo will have a full spring with the entire staff!" argument?

I don't know, man. The inexplicable usage of Jim Brower early last year, followed by Russ Ortiz continuing to exist through the end of the season, and now the acquisition of Jaret Wright, leads me to believe that Leo just might not be a great fit here.

Do not get me wrong right now: I want Leo to succeed. I want Jaret Wright to prove me wrong. He's an Oriole now, and I'll root for him. But this is something to consider.

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I think the whole reason we got Wright....

...was to teach a changeup to Cabrera.

Mama always told me not to look into the eyes of the sun
But mama, that's where the fun is...

by zknower on Nov 12, 2006 8:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

re:

Hey, if it works...

"I don't want any credit. I'm not looking for credit. You know what? I don't want any blame if we're horse shit, either." -- Jim Leyland

by SC on Nov 12, 2006 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Look at the bright side

The O's are dealing with other teams quickly, we might not like it but could this lead to other deals? could this lead to FA signings? seeing in the past how slow the O's are to make deals they knocked this one out fast, so other teams,players looking to complete a deal fast might say the O's aren't dragging their feet this year. I hope the deals get better and we get more to talk about.

As for Leo - well he's no saint and can't fix every thing however I do beleive this is his proven year, this year will define his success as a pitching coach. If can improve the the staff ERA to under 4.75 I will give him all the credit in the world, but to expect the man to do any better is crazy. I also feel his key guys should be Cabrera, Bedard, Loewan making them improve over last years numbers.

Wright might only be here for a little while to give these guys a little more veteran support, then dumped half way through June. Who knows we could have a Weaver on our hands.

Mama told me when I was young Come sit beside me, my only son And listen closely to what I say

by merdon1332000 on Nov 12, 2006 8:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

The NL

I think we may decide in a few years that a big part of the "Mazzone Effect" may have been due to the NL being far inferior to the AL. A lot of retreads become good again when they switch leagues. Look at Jeff Suppan, who was awful after boston got him a few years ago and is now going to get a monster contract. Something to consider. It does seem to be easier to pitch in the NL than in the AL (especially the East).

by pipkin on Nov 12, 2006 8:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yes

and having Maddox, Smoltz, and Glavine can help the team ERA as well.

by larry bigbie on Nov 12, 2006 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

"think we may decide in a few years that a big part of the "Mazzone Effect" may have been due to the NL being far inferior to the AL."

Leo's shit doesn't work in the AL.

"I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way." Jessica Rabbit

by birdman on Nov 12, 2006 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

re:

I've always viewed the Brower/Ortiz moves as shear desperation. Mazzone came in and realized the pitching staff was in bad shape. He probably made some recommendations and the FO went along. Recall that Mazzone did call out the pitching staff, while Millar questioned attitudes, and they were quickly quieted. We also heard grumblings that Mazzone wasn't endearing himself to the staff because he was "too tough".

Seems to me Mazzone has a no bullshit attitude that the losing culture on the Orioles didn't appreciate. Maybe he's not the right guy, but if things don't work out, I view the Orioles to be a big part of the problem. The FO, the players, and espcially the owner, can be content to f*** around on a losing team, or they can work hard and come around to Mazzone's no bullshit, hate losing attitude.

Mama! Mama! Someone said they made some noise. The cops have shot some girls and boys.

by drj on Nov 12, 2006 10:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

this is a good argument

Leo's too good for this franchise. And it might very well be true.

"I don't want any credit. I'm not looking for credit. You know what? I don't want any blame if we're horse shit, either." -- Jim Leyland

by SC on Nov 13, 2006 12:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Nooo

"Leo's too good for this franchise. And it might very well be true."

Earmuffs!

Birdman says, "Earmuffs!"

by birdman on Nov 13, 2006 12:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm just trying to make a point, Frank.

You don't have to celebrate it.

"I don't want any credit. I'm not looking for credit. You know what? I don't want any blame if we're horse shit, either." -- Jim Leyland

by SC on Nov 13, 2006 2:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

re:

I didn't mean Mazzone was completely above this mess. I believe he was the impetus behind the Brower/Ortiz signings. He probably advocated bringing his pinnochle buddies and give them a try. The FO went along, and we see how well that turned out. I just hope Wright is not the same type of acquisition and there is some sort of larger plan to bring in youth. Past history says I shouldn't hold my breath.

I wanted to say is we can't lay this all at Mazzone's feet. He was appalled that some pitchers couldn't locate a fastball. He was appalled at the work ethic and a culture that accepted losing. In a nutshell, he was appalled at the Peter Angelos induced culture that pervades the organization. He spoke out and was hushed up. My guess is he concentrated on the players who cared to improve and shared his attitude, and let the losers wallow.

At least Mazzone was one guy with some fire left in him. I'm curious to see if it has been doused. I don't see him as the kind of guy to hang around and ride out a contract for the pay.

Mama! Mama! Someone said they made some noise. The cops have shot some girls and boys.

by drj on Nov 13, 2006 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You might have something

But I think that last seasons pitching performed to its level of talent. The young arms stayed streaky and crap arms that stayed crappy. I imagine some culture shock pitchers might of had going from Ray Miller's fundamentals to Leo's which, initially, could've made some pitchers reluctant to change. This next coming season will be more of a tell tale sign Mazzone's ability....provided the FO doesn't bring in more Rodrigo type pitchers.
One other thing I worry about is that everyone seems so focused on the starting rotation when our bullpen is quite possibly in more need of work and/or upgrade. If the rotation does make good progress this coming season then it could be all for not if the bullpen giving the games away.

Of course I pee'd my pants! Everyone my age pee's their pants! It's the cooooolest!. - Billy Madison

by O face on Nov 15, 2006 9:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

bullpen v rotation

Hopefully, six-seven innings are routinely pitched by the starters, which we need help with first. If you can't get through the first six, the bullpen doesn't really matter.

If you CAN, then the bullpen does. But first things first is most peoples' approach to our pitching problems, I think.

"I don't want any credit. I'm not looking for credit. You know what? I don't want any blame if we're horse shit, either." -- Jim Leyland

by SC on Nov 15, 2006 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs