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Say it ain't so! Brian Roberts to be named in Mitchell Report

From SI.com:

Former American League MVP Miguel Tejada is mentioned in the Mitchell Report, due to be relased by 2 p.m. on Thursday afternoon, SI.com has learned.

Orioles second baseman Brian Roberts also is in the report, as are Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte and Chuck Knoblauch.

Wow. Just, wow. I didn't think he'd be there. Jay, Miggi, Raffy, sure, we KNEW they would be in there. But B-Rob?

I'm gonna go cry now...

Update: For the record... Brian Roberts' name is linked via Larry Bigbie's squealfest when he mentions that Roberts once said he had tried them "once or twice" several years ago. Quite frankly, even the outraged mainstream sportswriters are having trouble sticking it to Brian Roberts. I'm kind of in the same boat, as I think most of us are mature and sane enough to admit that probably 90% of all pro ballplayers have "tried" something "once or twice." -- SC

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His name has been tied to this crap for ages
It doesn't make me like him any less, and I don't think it'll affect his trade value.

by Stacey on Dec 13, 2007 1:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I always thought....
Grimsley named him a a FU to the feds - I mean, a 160 lb 2B? What's HE doing with steroids? I mean, WTF?
"If a bum like Aubrey Huff has that much fun, can you imagine how cool it must be to be a real baseball player?" - Rick Maese

by duck on Dec 13, 2007 1:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re:
That's exactly what he's doing with steroids, dude. People need to stop equating steroids with bodybuilders. This isn't 1983.

Thanks for the time that you've given me...

by SC on Dec 13, 2007 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Many predicted this
I mentioned it in this thread, as did a few others.

I'm not remotely surprised.


It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 13, 2007 1:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

See above
for the source of my surprise
"If a bum like Aubrey Huff has that much fun, can you imagine how cool it must be to be a real baseball player?" - Rick Maese

by duck on Dec 13, 2007 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing
shocks me anymore.  This will probably be explained away as trying to recover from that arm injury.  That doesn't make it right but whatever.  This whole thing seems pointless but I'm still anxious to see what all is in the report.
"Hating the Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income taxes." -Mike Royko

by BPinOK on Dec 13, 2007 1:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

SHOCKING
Not....seriously, most of these guys have been doing this stuff for years, anyone who thinks otherwise is childishly naive. Who really cares?

by GeronimoGil on Dec 13, 2007 1:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Geronimo Gil
cares.  
"Hating the Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income taxes." -Mike Royko

by BPinOK on Dec 13, 2007 1:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

haha
all I'm saying is, it doesn't even matter to me...B-Rob is still awesome, Barry Bonds is still the greatest baseball player I've ever seen, and I still like all the other guys I liked who are on the list...all the guys I thought were douches are still douches....I've just assumed for a LONG time that roids and HGH were rampant in baseball, even before it became a big thing publicly

by GeronimoGil on Dec 13, 2007 1:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It's still real to ME!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvTNyKIGXiI

Forgot how to embed, so sue me.

"If a bum like Aubrey Huff has that much fun, can you imagine how cool it must be to be a real baseball player?" - Rick Maese

by duck on Dec 13, 2007 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I suspected as much
Roberts has seemed too defensive about it in his public comments about steroids. BPinOK mentions that he might try to blame his recovery from the arm injury, but its very possible he was using in 2004 and 2005 before the injury.

by silverstadium on Dec 13, 2007 1:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ya THINK?
I guarantee you that half these guys are going to say, "it was a doctor prescription that I had for blah blah blah injury", the way Jay Gibbons did.

Sure fellas. It was that one injury and you just bad judgment just for a month or two, right?


It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 13, 2007 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Roberts
is also best friends with Jay Gibbons.
"If you're not practicing, somebody else is, somewhere, and he'll be ready to take your job." -Brooks Robinson

by exitfare on Dec 13, 2007 1:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was really hoping B-Rob wouldn't be on this list
But now that he is, we need to trade him. The team needs a clean break from this shit. He was my favorite player for a while, but thats over.

We probably won't get as much for him as we would have yesterday, but, thems the breaks....

"Baltimore? That's like being hit in the head with a crowbar once a day."

by spike2131 on Dec 13, 2007 1:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm not surprised
It explains his offensive surge in 2005.

Personally, I've always assumed that like football and the Olympics steriod use has been pretty common in baseball since the 1970's or 1980's.

by yurizanow on Dec 13, 2007 1:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

there is nothing surprising about this
Nothing whatsoever.

Thanks for the time that you've given me...

by SC on Dec 13, 2007 2:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

He actually comes off not that bad in the report!!
Brian Roberts is an infielder who has played for the Baltimore Orioles since 2001.
He has been selected to two All-Star teams.
Roberts and Larry Bigbie were both rookies in 2001. According to Bigbie, both
he and Roberts lived in Segui's house in the Baltimore area during the latter part of that season.
When Bigbie and Segui used steroids in the house, Roberts did not participate.
According to Bigbie, however, in 2004 Roberts admitted to him that he had
injected himself once or twice with steroids in 2003. Until this admission, Bigbie had never
suspected Roberts of using steroids.
In order to provide Roberts with information about these allegations and to give
him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined.

So he admitted to Bigbie that he did it once or twice.  

Here's the actual report: http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf

"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Dec 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
That is total hearsay.  Of all the players I've read so far, he comes off the best (well, for being on the list in the first place)

by Chanumas on Dec 13, 2007 2:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Greg Zaun

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 13, 2007 2:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bigbie
Bigbie is really coming across as a major bad guy here. He introduced, like, everyone to Kurt Radomski.

by pipkin on Dec 13, 2007 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re:
It's the shitty ones ya gotta watch.

Thanks for the time that you've given me...

by SC on Dec 13, 2007 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, I think it's more David Segui....
It said that Segui introduced Kurt Radomski to Bigbie, and that's when the dominoes fell....

by Chanumas on Dec 13, 2007 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough
All those roids and Bigbie still never made any money. Segui's a millionaire. Bigbie probably sells cars.

by pipkin on Dec 13, 2007 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

goddamn
If Jamie Walker is on steer-oids, I'm out.

Thanks for the time that you've given me...

by SC on Dec 13, 2007 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

just searched
he doesn't show up

by pipkin on Dec 13, 2007 2:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm hearing...
no current Red Sox showed up on the list (from Fox 25 in Boston). Anyone know if this is the case?

by rebop on Dec 13, 2007 2:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

RE:
Gagne is it.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Dec 13, 2007 2:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's not...
with the Red Sox anymore.

by rebop on Dec 13, 2007 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I cry foul!
The whole thing stinks. Mitchell had an obvious conflict of interest, and should never have been head of this commission. The fact that no Red Sox got thrown under the bus is highly suspicious given Mitchell's position with the team.

by rebop on Dec 13, 2007 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brendan Donnelly is on there
Granted, he spent most of '07 (his only year so far w/ the Sox) on the DL and was just non-tendered (but it's believed they'll be bringing him back next year anyway)

by GeronimoGil on Dec 13, 2007 3:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

off to the brew crew
like the o's with tejada, they dumped him just in time

by brooklynlovesorioles on Dec 13, 2007 2:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Looks like the biggest Red Sox
name on there is Mo Vaughn.

This isn't going to do any good for the conspiracy theorists.

by KenDixonFanClub on Dec 13, 2007 2:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

why did we suck?
If every oriole was using, why weren't we winning more?  I think it should only count if performance was actually enhanced.  If so, Gibbles' suspension would for sure be lifted.

by brooklynlovesorioles on Dec 13, 2007 2:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

re:
Three things:
  1. A lot of our users were/are marginal guys who were just trying to stay in the league. This refers to Bigbie, Hairston, Clark, The Turd, Jack Cust, etc.
  2. Tejada used back when he was with the A's (at least that's what the report says), not with the O's.
  3. The effectiveness of HGH for improving athletic performance is medically disputed. JC Bradbury has written a lot about this on his Sabernomics blog.

by pipkin on Dec 13, 2007 2:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

though...
reading the section on tejada/palmeiro, it sounds like dudes were running around the clubhouse just sticking each other w/ needles.  doesn't that reflect poorly on richie bancells & the training staff?
So, I said, uh, lama: how about a little something for the effort?

by jq higgins on Dec 13, 2007 2:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why would you choose a needle over a pill
I hate needles.  I'll take B12 in pill form any day of the week, but I don't want anything in a syringe unless my life depends on it.

by PhilR8 on Dec 13, 2007 2:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For those who don't want to pore through the repor

Marvin Benard
Barry Bonds
Bobby Estalella
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Benito Santiago
Gary Sheffield
Randy Velarde
Lenny Dysktra
David Segui
Larry Bigbie
Brian Roberts
Jack Cust
Tim Laker
Josias Manzanillo
Todd Hundley
Mark Carreon
Hal Morris
Matt Franco
Rondell White
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettite
Chuck Knoblauch
Jason Grimsley
Greg Zaun
David Justice
F.P. Santangello
Glenallen Hill
Mo Vaughn
Denny Neagle
Ron Villone
Ryan Franklin
Chris Donnels
Todd Williams
Phil Hiatt
Todd Pratt
Kevin Young
Mike Lansing
Cody Mckay
Kent Mercker
Andy Piatt
Miguel Tejada
Jason Christianson
Mike Stanton
Stephen Randolph
Jerry Hairston Jr.
Paul Lo Duca
Adam Riggs
Bart Miadich
Chad Allen
Fernando Vina
Kevin Brown
Eric Gagne
Mike Bell
Matt Herges
Gary Bennett Jr.
Jim Parque
Brandon Donnelly
Jeff Williams
Howie Clark
Nook Logan
Daniel Naulty
Rick Ankiel
Paul Byrd
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Jose Guillen
Gary Matthews, Jr.
Scott Schoeneweis
Jose Canseco
Jason Grimsley
Darren Holmes
John Rocker
Ismael Valdez
Matt Williams
Steve Woodard
David Bell

by Chanumas on Dec 13, 2007 2:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nope...
not a single current Red Sox player. Yet B-Rob gets in there solely on the basis of a second-hand account, and will have that stigma attached to him for the rest of his career.

I'm not saying B-Rob is necessarily innocent, but Mitchell couldn't find a single second-hand account or rumor to smear one of his own players?

by rebop on Dec 13, 2007 2:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought
Ortiz had admitted to taking steroids before.  Where the fuck is he on this list?
Friend of the Working Man

by Jonnypops on Dec 13, 2007 4:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No Pujols, either.
oriolesupdate.blogspot.com

by BrianS on Dec 13, 2007 4:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

more than the o's?
any team have more current and former players implicated than the O's?

by brooklynlovesorioles on Dec 13, 2007 2:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

he admitted that it was incomplete
Brady must have used a different dealer.  Mitchell straight up said that they only know who these couple of guys supplied.

The section on Clemens is just...wow.

by brooklynlovesorioles on Dec 13, 2007 2:55 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

So if it is admittedly incomplete
I don't fully understand why they released the names.

by PhilR8 on Dec 13, 2007 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

because you could never have a complete list.
and releasing that many names (nearly 80) makes it clear that this wasn't an isolated incident, and that many, many players, including marquee players, have lied through their teeth about the problem.

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 13, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, makes sense
The are also saying on mlb.tv that they think that the players named in the report will cooperate and implicate those who are not on the list.

"Why am I on the list and this guy isn't?" picks up telephone

by PhilR8 on Dec 13, 2007 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol
exactly.

"son-of-a-bitch!"


It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 13, 2007 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly
the report basically goes on the testimony of 3 guys, and almost no players, there could be a lot more that had no association with the any of those trainers.

by nesloq on Dec 13, 2007 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, if BRod was on steroids...
 he obviously wasn't taking the ones to make you alot bigger and stronger.
"Beauty is in the eye of the bill-folder." - Buck O'Neill

by Born Under a Bad Moon on Dec 13, 2007 3:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Anyone else disappointed...
by how anticlimactic this was? There weren't any big revelations....maybe I'm missing something, but I went over that list a few times and didn't really find any superstar types who weren't already presumed guilty a long time ago

by GeronimoGil on Dec 13, 2007 3:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Not really
Not so much disappointed as that I really don't care much about it to begin with. This report only makes me more tired of hearing about steriods in baseball.
I still save my disappointment for the front office.
 
Ahh, well, you know. Its a team effort and I guess it took every player working together to lose this one. - Doug Remer

by O face on Dec 13, 2007 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Orioles Win
I'm pretty sure this is a list of all the players from the list who at one time or another played for the Orioles. Yes folks, we beat them all.  WE'RE NUMBER 1!!!!!

Palmeiro
Gibbons
Jerry Hairston
Miggy
Roberts
Laker
Todd Williams
Gregg Zaun
Jack Cust
Larry Bigbie
David Segui
Jason Grimsley
Gary Matthews Jr.
Kevin Brown
Kent Merker
Manny Alexander

by brooklynlovesorioles on Dec 13, 2007 3:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The MFY have a bunch of players too
damn the Yankees, have to try and buy EVERY single championship!

Jason Giambi
Gary Sheffield
Randy Velarde
Hal Morris
Rondell White
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettite
Chuck Knoblauch
Jason Grimsley
David Justice
Glenallen Hill
Ron Villone
Mike Stanton
Kevin Brown
Josias Manzanillo
Denny Neagle
Todd Williams
Jose Canseco

16 O's vs 18 Skankees, ugh.

also, who knew that Jerry Hairston Jr. was actually with the O's for 7 seasons?

by nesloq on Dec 13, 2007 4:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Umm...
A lot of people I assume.  Considering the only reason B-Rob got in the lineup was b/c Hairston got hurt early in the season.
"Hating the Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income taxes." -Mike Royko

by BPinOK on Dec 13, 2007 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
Look at the names on their list vs. the names on our list. By how many runs would a team of thier 'roids users kick the ass of a team of our 'roids users?
"Baltimore? That's like being hit in the head with a crowbar once a day."

by spike2131 on Dec 13, 2007 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol! Nice one, spike. Let's get a charity game up!
I was going to contribute to the Alberto Gonzales Defense Fund, but I forgot.

by Titov on Dec 14, 2007 3:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Are you sure?
Even the Sox had 14 former players on the list (via the Boston Globe):

Roger Clemens, Mo Vaughn, Eric Gagne, Brendan Donnelly, Steve Woodard, Jose Canseco, Manny Alexander, Paxton Crawford, Jeremy Giambi, Josias Manzanillo, Chris Donnels, Mike Lansing, Kent Mercker, and Mike Stanton.

If the Sox had 14, I wouldn't be surprised if someone trumps our 16. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the Mets top us since one of the top informers came out of that organization.

by rebop on Dec 13, 2007 4:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brian
From ESPN:
Brian Roberts never used any time he roomed with the others. He confided to Bigbie he tried it once or twice on his own in 2003.  Bigbie was surprised to hear that.  ESPN feels this is not an infraction, it's nothing.  To me it's like your kid confiding that s/he tried pot once at a party.

I assumed it was when he rehabbed for his elbow. I don't know about other guys but he earned that 2006 All Star spot cleanly. My opinion.

by Montego76 on Dec 13, 2007 3:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Mitchell asked to talk to Brian
And he refused according to the report.

I'm not quite sure how to respond to that -- is there more than "he tried it once in 2003 on my own" going on here, or was just trying to stay out of it, or didn't want to rat out friends/teammates that he knew were more heavily into it?

oriolesupdate.blogspot.com

by BrianS on Dec 13, 2007 4:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Could be a lot of things
Roberts is far from the only player to decline an invitation to speak to the commission. Schilling said this morning on WEEI that he declined because he didn't want to go in there and "name names." But of course whatever hearsay they had on Schilling didn't make it into the report.

by rebop on Dec 13, 2007 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the real shame...
If they had enough evidence to want to talk to Schilling, I would have liked to see his name in the report, too.
oriolesupdate.blogspot.com

by BrianS on Dec 13, 2007 4:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know...
if they had any evidence or not. But they did want to talk to him.

by rebop on Dec 13, 2007 5:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, Brian had an opportunity to clear his name
In a case like this, when evidence is so impossible to come by, a player who takes the fifth is going to be presumed guilty of whatever they've got him on... and more.

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 13, 2007 4:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

giving him further benefit of the doubt
just like the fella up there said about schilling, maybe he knew by talking to mitchell he would be squealing on close friends, something he may not have wanted to do.

If he went out of his way to tell Bigbie he tried it only a couple of times, I'll assume that's all he did. Which isn't as bad as the other guys, right?

Furthermore... Just look at the guy, it's not like he ever inflated and then deflated. Remember how jacked Gibbons was? And how he thinned out recently? That's what I'm assuming most roiders look like...

I dunno, I'm still a BRob fan.

by dfleis on Dec 13, 2007 8:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re:
I'm not sure how he clears his name of an accusation by a third party who says Roberts told him he tried steroids a couple times.

What do you suggest? Should he have gone to the investigation and said "no I didn't". and then the committee keeps his name out of the report?

You keep talking about the chance everyone had to clear their names. I don't see how it could be done in this investigation. Seems to me players were presumed guilty via any accusation. I'm not sure how they "clear their name" in such circumstances.

by drj on Dec 13, 2007 9:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

presumed guilty by you perhaps
there's no evidence that they were presumed guilty by mitchell or the investigation.

You clear your name by answering questions when the panel convened to conduct an investigation gives you the oportunity to do so; instead of a blanket refusal to talk to them. That's exactly how to clear your name.

What do you suggest? Should he have gone to the investigation and said "no I didn't". and then the committee keeps his name out of the report?

Exactly. If it's not a true story, then deny it like any person with nothing to hide. "Sir, all due respect, that is an outright fabrication, and I resent the implication."

If it is a true story, well, then I guess I'm suggesting he take his medecine. If someone catches you doing something illegal, man up and admit it. It certainly would have quelled any rumors of further wrongdoing, i.e., "Roberts was one of the few players who met with the committee. He did not deny the Bigbie story, but rather said it was true and that's as far as it went and he regretted his actions. He elected not to answer questions about teammates, stating it was none of his business."

Done. And people respect you for it, I think. Right now, there's more suspicion because he refgused to answer questions: Did it stop with Bigbie and Segui, or did it go further than that?


It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 13, 2007 10:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re:
Presumed guilty be me? And not the report? Of course the report is implying guilt. Why else put out these peoples' name in a report as examples of steroids in baseball? You make absolutely no sense here.

As for "taking the medicine", Bud Selig is still making noise about punshing the offenders. And the players should go before the committe and admit guilt when the consequences are unknown, evidently by no one but Selig? I'm betting the players union advised against such a move. Should I wonder about all the players who refused to testify? You can speak in absolutes all you want, but it's not that easy.

by drj on Dec 14, 2007 12:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we're misunderstanding each other
"The report" does not presume anything. The report is pieces of paper.

Of course, once players are named in the report, people are assuming they're guilty.

My point was: if you are, in fact, not guilty, then you talk to the commission. The commission suspects you may have used steroids, but presumes you innocent; to clarify, they want to ask some questions. If you refuse to talk to them, then they presume you guilty, and this should come as no shock to anyone.

If you get pulled over for driving erratically, an officer suspects, but does not presume that you are DUI. If you then walk a straight line and touch your nose and tell him you nodded off for a moment, then he likely doesn't book you on DUI charges. If you refuse to speak to him or to take the sobriety test, then he presumes your guilt and writes you up as such.

Likewise, if Roberts interviews with the Committee and says, "that story is simply not true", his name does not go in the report. If he says, "that story is true, I tried them once, but not with those guys," his name maybe goes in as a footnote, but he gets major credibility from the public for answering questions.

But by not even interviewing with the committee, he is automatically a suspect, and rightly so. It implies, to me at least, that he didn't know what they had on him; and that implies that there may be more that he is hiding than just "I tried it once".


It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 14, 2007 11:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or...
he didn't talk to the commission, along with virtually every other current MLB player they asked to talk to, because his union told him not to. It's just a bad idea to cross your union, and by extension your teammates.

Anyway, I have no idea if the story Bigbie told is true. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I imagine Roberts will comment on it at some point. But I wouldn't presume guilt on the basis of the fact that he didn't agree to talk to the commission--Roberts had lots of other reasons not to talk to them, starting with the fact that his union instructed him not to.

And keep in mind, if he talks, they're not just going to ask him to confirm or deny what Bigbie said and leave it at that. They're going to ask him all kinds of questions about current and former teammates, and he would either have to either rat them out or lie.

Brian Roberts may or may not have used steroids, but the stigma of being named in the Mitchell report--based on nothing more than innuendo--will follow him for the rest of his career. He probably figured that was lesser stigma than being tagged as a rat by his current and future teammates. Can't say I blame him for that, guilty or not.

by rebop on Dec 14, 2007 11:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or
"he didn't talk to the commission, along with virtually every other current MLB player they asked to talk to, because his union told him not to. It's just a bad idea to cross your union, and by extension your teammates."

Roberts didn't want to rat out his fellow players.  Mitchell would undoubtedly ask what he has seen or heard about steriods.  That said, even if the union told not to talk to the commission, any named player in the report should have agreed to talk to the commission under the condition that he would only talk about his own use if he's interested in clearing his name.  

by birdman on Dec 14, 2007 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re:
there's no evidence that they were presumed guilty by mitchell or the investigation.

The above is your quote. You know I wasn't talking about pieces of paper. "The report" in my statement implicitly speaks about the authors, as we both realize that a piece of paper does not make an accusation (or in my case its an electronic version and no paper whatsoever is involved). The fact that Mitchell and the investigators put names in the report implies they presumed guilt.

You say that if guilty, the player should go before the committee express his guilt. No misunderstanding here, and I reiterate why do that in this atmosphere where future punishment is unknown. What's the penalty here? Anything from nothing to some sort of ban, or anything else Bud Selig dreams up? I can't imagine players lining up, no matter how noble you think it may be.

One other overriding fact each player had to contend with is the players union telling them not to cooperate. What about all the other guys who were asked to speak with the commission but declined. Who knows why Mitchell was interested.

If you want to impose some sort of "name clearing" for the innocent or at least an attempt to restore dignity for the guilty, why limit it to those who were fingered by whatever talker, facing criminal charges depending on their cooperation, Mitchell had at his disposal? Get every single player past and present up there to make a statement about their past use or non-use. It's not binding, but it would be a public statement. At least then your approach would be comprehensive and consistent. Why single out the few you feel should be compelled to do so for a report that the author himself stresses is not comprehensive?

by drj on Dec 14, 2007 11:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

whoa now
I'm not trying to be a dick and parse words. We are having a misunderstanding and I'm trying to clarify it. You wrote, "Presumed guilty be me? And not the report?", and I was trying to get after what you meant by that.

It sounds like you're saying these players were presumed guilty by Mitchell & co., and I have gone to great lengths to state that I don't believe this is true, and have laid out the reasons why. I think the committee had suspicions and gave players a fair chance to clear them up.

You say that if guilty, the player should go before the committee express his guilt. No misunderstanding here, and I reiterate why do that in this atmosphere where future punishment is unknown.

First of all, I don't say that. I say that a player, if guilty, cannot expect to leave the proceedings untarnished if he is unwilling to discuss his past actions. I say that remaining silent leaves people thinking the worst. So a player has to weigh those ramifications in deciding whether or not to appear.

Why appear when future punishment is unknown? I don't know, maybe because it's an Official MLB investigation and you want to get ahead of the curve? Maybe when they call you you decide to take an opportunity to give your side of a story? By the standards you're suggesting, any guilty person who is ever accused should plead innocent until they are convicted. A lot of folks, not knowing what punishment awaits them, choose to come clean and face the music. In criminal and civil courts, there is often an advantage to doing so. It sounds to me like you're defending the baseball players' near-universal silence on the matter. Personally, I think that's exactly the kind of behavior that led us to where we are.

One other overriding fact each player had to contend with is the players union telling them not to cooperate.

No one's union has control over their individual actions. MLBPA could advise players not to interview, but had no power to compel them not to do so. Frank Thomas is the one player I know of who agreed to interview. Last time I checked, no one was calling him a "rat", and I haven't heard of him getting any sanctions from the union. Know why? 'Cause they have no right to tell him how to act. Frankly, MLPBA is one of the entities most responsible for this mess. If players feel that following the union's advice was automatically better for them, they are being naive. MLBPA wants as much of this covered up as possible.

If you want to impose some sort of "name clearing" for the innocent or at least an attempt to restore dignity for the guilty, why limit it to those who were fingered by whatever talker, facing criminal charges depending on their cooperation, Mitchell had at his disposal? Get every single player past and present up there to make a statement about their past use or non-use. It's not binding, but it would be a public statement. At least then your approach would be comprehensive and consistent.

It would be neither comprehensive nor consistent. Baseball had different rules at different times, so consistency is well near impossible. And comprehensive? Ha. Many players who are clearly guilty have gotten up and given numerous "non-binding public statements" to the effect that they were completely clean. Do I really need to see Jay Gibbons lie to me one more time?

No, the scope of this investigation is what it is. A player wasn't called unless the committee felt they could shed some light on the matter. The union, feeling it was in the players' best inetersts, asked the players to maintain a "Wall of Silence". Most chose to do so. That's a gamble that the players and the union made together. Perhaps it didn't work out as well as they expected.

People have to be responsible for their individual actions. Saying "everyone else was doing it" is hiding behind an excuse. Saying the investigation was a "witchhunt" is bullshit: there is overwhelming circumstantial evidence of what the committee is investigating. Saying a player would afraid of being a "rat" is a straw-man: I am not saying players should have gone in and "named names"; I'm only saying theat each player was given an opportunity to clear his own name. To pass on that chance and then bitch about one's name being dragged through the mud is naive at best and posturing at worst.


It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 14, 2007 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re:
I'll never agree that including players names in a report outlining steroid use in baseball does not imply guilt. I guess we'll never get beyond this point. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could interpret it any other way.

As for "getting ahead of the curve" or whatever, this investigation had no ground rules. A player would have to go in on their own to face a fishing expedition with unknown consequences to their career. This is a legitimate complaint of the players union, and it turn out they were right to be wary as Selig is now talking about punishment. I know you are reasonable enough to understand why a player could be hesitant. In Robert's case, what recourse did he have? The argument is "He said A, I say not A." Does that clear his name from the report? I don't know. Again, there were no guidelines. Maybe Mitchell still prints the accusation and a footnote with Robert's denial. Is that satisfactory? Again, I know you are reasonable enough to understand that there were enough ambiguities here so that Roberts (or any player) would have reservations.

I'm not making a general statement about "any guilty person". I'm saying that the players had absolutely no knowledge of what might happen. There were no guidelines as to where the investigation could proceed or possible consequences. So I see little reason to walk into the investigation. This is particularly true for those you advocate come out and admit guilt.

My saying they should all make a statement was far fetched in the same vein as you thinking players should come forward to an investigation where they have no context or knowledge of possible consequences. You worry about lies, so what. They could just as easily lie to teh Mitchell investigation. At least a statement from everyone (yes, I know it is far fetched) would at least be a comment for the record from every player. Seems that's appropriate as Mitchell says PED use was rampant. Why do you require action by the few actually named when he says use was widespread?

As for different eras, who cares? You seem to have ignored them. The players mentioned here played under different periods and associated rules, yet you claim they had the opportunity to clear their names of things baseball may have said was OK at the time they played. (I don't have all players lined up with associated rules at the time. However a number of these guys played in the past when rules were much more lax.). Why should they apologize for behavior MLB and Bud Selig agreed to?

As for the "rat" or "witch hunt" statements. Are they directed at me? If so please point out where I said people feared being labeled a rat or talked about a witch hunt. I may have used the term witch hunt, but not any time recently, and certainly not in this thread.

Bottom line to this whole thread is you are espousing the George Mitchell line that players had ample opportunity to clear their names. It just doesn't ring true. Especially in Robert's case when the presumption is guilt (by being included in the report) based on hearsay.

If you think there was a clear way for players to redeem their name, be my guest. You just haven't convinced me one iota.

by drj on Dec 14, 2007 4:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"guilt"
"I'll never agree that including players names in a report outlining steroid use in baseball does not imply guilt. I guess we'll never get beyond this point. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could interpret it any other way."

I wouldn't use the "guilty" but I would certainly say the Mitchell report raised my suspicion quite a bit about steroid use for any player named in the report.  There were definitely quite a number of players that I didn't suspect before yesterday, but I now suspect either used regularly or dabbled a bit.  

"If you think there was a clear way for players to redeem their name, be my guest."

They should have testified under the condition that they would only talk about their usage but nobody else.  This would end all doubt.  For example, see here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/sports/baseball/15mitchell.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

by birdman on Dec 14, 2007 5:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and just to be clear
I'm posting that link as an example of a player who spoke to Mitchell, cleared his name, and didn't rat anyone out.  

by birdman on Dec 14, 2007 5:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

was away all weekend,
so i'll just fire off these quick points and leave it since this is last week's news...

I'll never agree that including players names in a report outlining steroid use in baseball does not imply guilt. I guess we'll never get beyond this point. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could interpret it any other way.

I totally agree that players' names IN THE FINAL REPORT implies guilt. My point all along was that the players were not assumed guilty by the commission while the report was being formulated, i.e., before they were questioned (or attempted to be questioned). I think that was our disconnect (yours and mine). Once again, I completely agree that anyone whose name is in the final report is implied as guilty. But not so when they are being asked to appear before the committee.

  • lack of ground rules in investigation:  and far fetched in the same vein as you thinking players should come forward to an investigation where they have no context or knowledge of possible consequences ... i addresses this above. life does not always give one an advance set of "ground rules" or possible consequences (what's the worst punishment I might receive?" "well, that depends on what you tell us."). when people ask you to tell the truth, you can elect to speak to them or not, and you can elect to be honest or not; but there's no reason anyone who is investigating misconduct should be obligated to tell you in advance all of the potential ways the situation would play out.
  • different eras: i haven't ignored anything, i'm the one who brought it up. just saying that there's NO WAY to get consistency in this process, and i am the first to admit that. and i never said any player should apologize for past behavior, either.
  • rat and/or witch hunt not directed at you personally. other commenters used these terms upthread, and i was trying to prevent them being brought up again
lastly, what birdman wrote below is exactly how i feel. any player could have agreed to appear and stipulated from the get-go that he would only discuss his own behavior (i.e., would not "name names".) the fact that Roberts declined to meet is his choice, not the union's. or as Rick Maese puts it:
None of this is to entirely excuse Roberts. Like I said, his case represents all that was wrong with the report, and Roberts deserves some culpability for his role -- or his lack thereof.

Again, from page 158 of the report: "In order to provide Roberts with information about the allegations and to give him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined."

This is where sympathy meets its limitations. No matter the outrage accused players surely will express in the coming days, remember that they had their opportunity. Based on the thoroughness and objectivity Mitchell exhibited throughout, if Roberts -- or any number of other players -- had chosen to participate, the reputations they care so passionately about presumably could have been spared immensely.

That's the part I never understood. If you have nothing to hide, then why hide? If you don't want to be wrongly fingered in the final report, then why not defend your name during the investigation rather than wait for the aftermath?

If Roberts did nothing wrong, he should have shared that with an investigator.

In addition to assisting the investigation, the players association could have helped its players. The union has resisted Mitchell and this investigation since it was announced 20 months ago. Rather than embrace the mission and the objective, union officials stamped their feet and warned players against cooperation.

Roberts' silence in the days since also speaks volumes. one would expect a person innocent of the accusations to denounce them in some way.

but enough of this. respond if you wish, i have no problems if you want to get the last word in. i think we both understand each other's POV.


It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 16, 2007 6:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Expect a flurry of trades tomorrow
Mandated by Bud to make the public forget this.

Speaking of which: According to the Cincy Enquirer, no Bedard trade unless they give us Bruce. Which they won't.


It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 13, 2007 4:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Until I actually see something more from
the report, I will remain thoroughly un-fucking-inpressed. Who's for a bit of early drinking, eh?
"True friends stab you in the front."-Oscar Wilde.

by NHZ on Dec 13, 2007 5:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Cliff Notes of the Mitchell Report
i just spend the better part of 3 hours reading the entire section discussing players past use and the almost useless section on internet purchasing, which is why i haven't commented yet.

here are some thoughts:

  1.  NO current player is gonna talk after what happened to Raffy.
  2.  It's ALL heresay, although the copies of checks for exact and similar amounts from different players is pretty damning circumstantial evidence.
  3.  B-Rob does come off particularly light, all things considered.
  4.  Almost all evidence (save for the BALCO evidence) is based upon the accounts of two clubhouse guys based in New York.
  5.  David Segui was the ringleader of the Baltimore connection.
  6.  Paul Lo Duca was the West Coast ringleader (again, save for BALCO).
  7.  MLB and Union officials conclusively had their heads in the sand (or, alternatively, up thier own asses) until 2005.
  8.  The only reason Jose Guillen and Jay Gibbons were suspended and not Ankiel, Glaus, Matthews, Hairston, et al. in the internet pharmacy fiasco is that THEY ADMITTED THEIR GUILT and the others didn't.
there you have it.  you don't have to read the whole thing now.  you have the Cliff Notes (tm).
FUCK MASCOT MILLAR and HORSESHIT HUFF

by Dave at Bottomfeeder Baseball on Dec 13, 2007 6:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

The Witch Hunt is just getting started folks.
Democrat Henry Waxman and Republican Tom Davis want House steroid hearings now. These clowns can't agree on anything that would help get us out of Iraq or hold the President to account, but they're going to make these baseball players pay! It's a stupid spectacle with no end in sight.

by rebop on Dec 13, 2007 6:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Politicians love this shit.
Meaningless distractions where they can get up on their soapboxes while the slew of corrupt shit they're really accomplishing goes unnoticed.
Friend of the Working Man

by Jonnypops on Dec 13, 2007 6:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A rousing no shit to that..
I sometimes think it's too bad the folks on that American flight crashed the plane into a field.  Had it been intended to hit the Capital, it might have done the whole country a lot of good.

Probably not, Congress is pretty good at finding excuses for not actually being physically present at work.

by timg56 on Dec 13, 2007 7:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re:
Good thing these assholes can find something to agree on, and that it winds up being fucking baseball players.

Thanks for the time that you've given me...

by SC on Dec 13, 2007 7:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh good
This will clear things up. And piss away even more taxpayer money.

by drj on Dec 13, 2007 7:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he only used it a couple of time back in 03
Im sure he will get off the hook, he still rocks
BE HAPPY DONT BE SAD THE ORIOLES CANT REALLY BE ALL THAT BAD!

by westcoastOfan on Dec 13, 2007 8:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I remember
a post by the idiot, Roch, where he wrote that Roberts had once taken him to task for mentioning on his blog that he had used a curse word, and a minor one, not one that started with S or F.  According to the post he was very concerned about how children would feel about it.  If that post was true, I cannot even imagine how B-Rob must feel about the Mitchell Report.
Friend of the Working Man

by Jonnypops on Dec 13, 2007 10:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

re:
I can't say as though I really care about how he feels about how the children are going to react. Maybe don't do it in the first place then, I don't know. And I'm about as not up-in-arms as it gets regarding this whole mess.

Thanks for the time that you've given me...

by SC on Dec 14, 2007 1:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well, personally
I believe the children are the future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess insiiiiiide
Give them a sense
Of pride
To make it easier
Let the children's laughter
Remind us how we used to be...
Friend of the Working Man

by Jonnypops on Dec 14, 2007 10:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Proof that 1) Steroids WORK! and 2) No they DON'T!
  1. Jose
  2. Ozzie
I was going to contribute to the Alberto Gonzales Defense Fund, but I forgot.

by Titov on Dec 14, 2007 4:04 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I have a hard time taking all this seriously
All of the rending of garments and gnashing of teeth over the Mitchell Report seems like a lot posturing in an attempt to come across as the most shocked or most outraged to me.  Are there really serious sports fans out there who are surprised by any of this?

The other thing that cracks me up are the people calling into radio talk shows who are saying they aren't going to watch baseball anymore because of this.  Yeah right.  Either you weren't much of fan to begin with, incredibly naive, or in complete and utter denial.  

You know, I'm going to stop listening to the Rolling Stones because I just learned they were all a bunch of dope fiends.

by yurizanow on Dec 14, 2007 8:57 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

re:
My other favorite (dumbass) reaction.

Our team is clean! No current players were implicated in Mitchell report.

In my case I had to witness it on the local Boston channels - both as lead stories and in the sports broadcasts. I'm keeping an eye on the storm reports and couldn't avoid the proclamations of relief that the 2004 and 2007 teams were deemed "clean".

by drj on Dec 14, 2007 9:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

RE:
Yeah, apparently Brady Anderson was completely clean!
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Dec 14, 2007 9:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

RE:
Just looks like a lot of spinach to me.  All natural!
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Dec 14, 2007 10:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cue the C&C Music Factory track....
...Every-body Dance Now!!!
Friend of the Working Man

by Jonnypops on Dec 14, 2007 10:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It seems...
Theo is taking some heat--and rightly so--for acquiring Gange despite the fact that he was warned by a scout  that the guy had a steroid problem. No team is totally clean--this is an industry wide problem--any fans that believe otherwise probably also believe in the tooth fairy.

I can understand why someone might feel relieved that their favorite player wasn't named in the report, but the fact that they weren't doesn't mean they're clean--not by a long shot.

by rebop on Dec 14, 2007 12:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They were?
Not the Stones!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

oriolesupdate.blogspot.com

by BrianS on Dec 14, 2007 9:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
but don't worry, the Beatles were totally clean.

by rebop on Dec 14, 2007 12:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have a hard problem taking seriously
an investigation that was focused on just a couple of people.  We're supposed to believe that all steroid use eminated from Balco or those two guys associated with the Mets? A report that does not include Mark McGuire's name?  Who believes that the 80 guys mentioned in the report represent the majority of users?  

In some ways it is an injustice to link a guy like Roberts, who apparently dabbled with the stuff a couple times, to this issue, yet leave a guy who was an obvious juicer with an untouched reputation.

by timg56 on Dec 14, 2007 9:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no
We're supposed to believe that all steroid use eminated from Balco or those two guys associated with the Mets? A report that does not include Mark McGuire's name?  Who believes that the 80 guys mentioned in the report represent the majority of users?

None of these are claims made by the committee. In fact, they have gone out their way to say:

  • there are likely many other suppliers
  • there are most certainly many users they did not uncover
  • the report in no way is supposed to be a comprehensive finding of all steroid use in baseball, but is (rather) a limited finding which documents in no uncertain terms how widespread the problem is withing the game.
Palmeiro is not mentioned in the report except in reference to his congressional testimony and his positive drug test. This means they had no evidence linking him to any of their sources. It doesn't mean that he never took steroids. And yes, Sosa and McGwire are also not mentioned. because what could they say? "We think these guys took steroids too, but we have absolutely nothing to connect them to it"?

This doesn't mean that these people's reputations remain "untouched". It simply means that this particular investigation, which had no legal powers (subpoena, etc) and had to rely solely on interviews and circumstantial evidence, could not find anything linking them to PEDs.


It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 14, 2007 11:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

though...
he is discussed pretty extensively wrt his congressional testimony and the implications of canseco's book and his own implication of miggy.  bigbie also claims to have discussed steroids w/ palmeiro, but palmeiro apparently said he had never taken them before.
So, I said, uh, lama: how about a little something for the effort?

by jq higgins on Dec 14, 2007 11:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So what's the point?
It's not like the league doesn't know it has a problem.  How does this report, outing only a percentage of names, do anything?  The league shouldn't need this to clean up it's act.

The only thing that comes to mind is that they needed it as a hammer to use against the players union.

by timg56 on Dec 14, 2007 2:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re
not being surpirsed by it and not wanting the status quo to continue are two different things.

It's just a question of arrogant self-entitlement against drunken limp-dicked self-loathing--DaBB

by zknower on Dec 14, 2007 11:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

larry the canary

accusation against roberts is WEEEAAAAAK.

by thewaywardO on Dec 14, 2007 10:11 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Bud Selig needs to go
If you take any random sampling of 1000 serious, competitive athletes, you're going to find an extraordinarily high percentage of them who are prepared to cheat to get a competitive edge.  It has been that way every since the ancient Olympics, and maybe earlier.  It is up to the people who regulate the conduct of the game to stop cheating.  In my opinion, that this scandal has happened says very little about major league baseball players but does say very much about the people who run the game of baseball

Lost in the sensationalization of the Mitchell Report is the only question which I think is germane to this whole discussion right now:  why in the hell did Bud Selig handle this situation in this way?  

I think anyone who knows anything about baseball would have to agree with the following:

  1.  The names that show up on the list are basically random, in the sense that it could just as easily have been 80 other MLB players whose names had shown up and these 80 who didn't.  The identity of who got outed has more to do with the identity of the people who agreed to talk to the investigators than it does with who the users actually are.
  2.  If you go behind the list of names and photographs, the evidence that implicates most of the guys on the list is both thin and anecdotal.  In many cases, it is a single source with knowledge of a single use of a substance.
  3.  Steroids did not change careers.  Clemens and Bonds were great players before and after; Pettitte et al were very good players before and after, and Chad Allen and Adam Piatt suck any way you slice the bread.
So why did Bud decide to give the sport of baseball such an enormous public black eye over this?  If he's concerned about forcing the Union's hand, why didn't he at least take the outline of a report, with the info and names that he had, to the Union privately and tell them that he had to clean the game up and if the only way to do it was to go public, he would, but by God, he sure as hell hoped that wouldn't be necessary?  

Bud has now given us a cancelled World Series and the biggest public scandal to hit the game in almost 90 years.  Isn't it time that the regulation of the game got turned over to someone who actually gives a fuck about it?

by leeotis on Dec 14, 2007 10:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

re:
Then Andy MacPhail steps in and Flanny takes control of the O's FO once again.

As for this being the biggest scandal. I pretty much take it for granted that all athletes look for an edge via PEDs. I personally find it more disconcerting that football and basketball players seem to be more involved in activities that lead to shootings and the occasional murder.

by drj on Dec 14, 2007 10:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know if it's the biggest
I fail to see how this is a bigger scandal than the cocaine scandal of the 1980's.

First, I don't think anyone really thought baseball was somehow different than every other sport and devoid of steroids, but it was huge shock of prevalent cocaine was throughout the Major Leagues.  Particularly in Pittsburgh and Kansas City.

Second, although I personally don't take the use of steriods lightly, I don't think any of us consider them in the same league as cocaine.  Steriods creates guys like Jose Canseco, while cocaine creates guys like Daryl Strawberry.

Third, the behavior of the players caught in the crosshairs during the the 1980's was just as shameful (particularly those who testified in the Pittsburgh drug trial) as Mark McGwire or Raphael Palmeiro during the Congressional hearings.

Fourth, the kinds of people the players were associating with were of a magnitude worse than the Balco guy or the clubhouse attendant for the Mets.  In the Pittsburgh case, those were the same drug dealers that Ray Liotta's character was doing business with in Goodfellas.  They were connected to actual gangsters, gamblers, etc.

Now this current brew-ha-ha is certainly more publicized scandal, so it's bigger in that sense, but personally I don't see how it's worse news for the big leagues than the cocaine scandal.

by yurizanow on Dec 14, 2007 10:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As a 25-year-old...
...the cocaine scandal is a minor footnote in baseball history to me.  In fact, before you mentioned Daryl Strawberry, I really didn't know what you were talking about.  So while you lived through it, I didn't (not really) and it doesn't really resonate for me.  I'm sure it's probably the same way for people my age and younger.

I gotta think though that the steroid scandal is gonna be something that goes down in history.  Of course I say that now, one day removed from the Mitchell Report, but there are several hallowed records that have been broken, ostensibly with the help of steroids.  We'll never know if Clemens could have gotten 300 wins without steroids (maybe?) and we'll never know if Bonds would have gotten as many home runs as he has without steroids (probably not).  So there is reasonable doubt in these cases, and this will be a footnote to history.

So while cocaine a helluva drug, and I'm sure it was a major scandal in its own right, does its use enhance performance? Was Daryl Strawberry a better player on coke?  Was it widely used as an agent to enhance performance?

Probably not.  So while it was a major criminal scandal, it won't resonate within the Hall of Fame and the annals of Baseball History in general.  The steroid scandal most likely will.

by PhilR8 on Dec 14, 2007 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

dude...
of course it was!  cocaine is a ped.  read your baseball history about the prevalence (and some may argue) necessity of speed (uh, the drug, not the physical attribute) to professionals.
So, I said, uh, lama: how about a little something for the effort?

by jq higgins on Dec 14, 2007 11:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Coke is it?
JQ, forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but I don't think speed is a form of cocaine.  

Isn't speed a name for amphetamines, the "greenies" that were supposedly everywhere in MLB clubhouses?

I can see how that would be a PED, but I didn't know coke was taken for performance-enhancing reasons.

But my knowledge of side effects and stuff is pretty limited to alcohol.  I played wiffleball drunk a few times, and it was definately not a performance-enhancer at the plate.  I was also a first basemen on the company softball team.  No beers:  first base is easy and fun.  Several beers: first base is a wild adventure filled with excitement and danger at every turn.    

oriolesupdate.blogspot.com

by BrianS on Dec 14, 2007 11:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you are correct...
cocaine is a form of speed.  speed is a generic term for drugs which provide a lift.  actually, i think amphetamines would be considered a gateway to coke.  
So, I said, uh, lama: how about a little something for the effort?

by jq higgins on Dec 14, 2007 11:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's still debatable...
to what extent steroids and especially HGH enhance performance in baseball. But in so far as cocaine is a stimulant, it is very possible it could lead to increased athletic performance--certainly many in baseball believed that it could and were taking it for that reason. These guys weren't doing a little recreational snorting on their own time, they were playing under the influence of the drug. I remember when the this scandal broke one of the busted players confessing that the drug made him feel like he was "Superman" out on the field. Whether it actually led to enhanced performance is debatable, but there is no doubt many players believed it did.

Alcohol is a depressant, and in no way comparable to the effect of cocaine on the central nervous system.

by rebop on Dec 14, 2007 12:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm reading about it on Wikipedia
"Despite the problem of cocaine use and abuse being a baseball-wide problem,[citation needed] it was perceived as just a "Pittsburgh problem" by the national media.[citation needed] Arguably, it led to the more widespread awareness of use of other drugs such as amphetamines ("greenies" in baseball vernacular) and marijuana[citation needed] in the game. Both have a long history in baseball; Milner (who had retired two years earlier due to recurring hamstring injuries), in fact, spoke of Willie Mays and Willie Stargell, both iconic figures and Baseball Hall of Famers, giving him "greenies". Milner died at age 50 in Atlanta, Georgia on January 4, 2000."

Wasn't cocaine use and abuse indicative of the 1980's in general?  I don't think you can say they same about steroids.

by PhilR8 on Dec 14, 2007 11:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My teammates
on my high school football team (Loch Raven Senior High) used steriods in the 1980's.  From what I understand that had been the case at my particular high school since the 1970's.

That's another thing about this whole phony drama that bothers me.  Steriods have been prevalent in sports on every level for at least 30 years and everyone in the newspapers and on TV is acting like this is some big revelation.

by yurizanow on Dec 14, 2007 4:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The cocaine scandal
It was a pretty big deal at the time, but it did not affect the integrity of the game the way this scandal does, because it wasn't "cheating" and didn't affect the way people perceived records.  It was bound to be a footnote in history, almost from the start.

This is the first scandal that I can think of which implicatest the integrity of the game since the Black Sox scandal.

by leeotis on Dec 14, 2007 11:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It should have been
Objectively speaking the cocaine scandal was a MUCH bigger threat to "the integrity of the game".  Those players were hooked up with and owed money to real, genuine gangster-types with connections to organized crime and organized gambling.  

Given how evenly steriod use seems to be distributed among Major League teams and the variations in the records of teams that had a lot of players that used steriods, I don't think that their use altered the natural outcome of individual seasons or even games all that much.  In my mind if every team juices (which seems to be the case), then no team gains an advantage from juicing (as the Baltimore Orioles show quite well).

Back in the 1980's there was a potential of guys deliberately throwing games to pay off people they owed money to which is far more serious in my mind than guys trying to get a competitive edge illegally.

by yurizanow on Dec 14, 2007 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

re:
Oh my, you have it ALL WRONG!

Can't you see that it is OK to be associated with genuine gangster-types (I present football and basketball as evidence).

The big scandal is that the baseball steroid era infringed upon sacred and hallow baseball records.

The public can deal with an occasional murder or two, but that 73 sans asterisk has them in a tizzy.

by drj on Dec 14, 2007 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that reflects your age
If you either don't know who Daryl Strawberry is or don't know that he is a massive and embarrassingly public cokehead, then I'm guessing that you might not be the best-versed person in baseball history.

Take my word for it.  The cocaine scandal was a really big deal in it's day.  It was viewed very much as part of the overall drug crisis in the United States during the 1980's, but people were really shocked by it.  The difference it that now there are far more media outlets and an even bigger tendency to exaggerate and hype things than there was was before.

Twenty years from now some other 25 year-old won't know what the big deal about the steriod report was.

by yurizanow on Dec 14, 2007 4:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Steroids...
can also make you like Ken Caminiti--dead. I don't want to minimize the impact of cocaine abuse, but steroid abuse can also have horrible long-term consequences, including death.

Of course things should also be kept in perspective--cocaine abuse was and is a much larger societal problem than steroid abuse. Still, it's not something you want to see your kid messing around with.

by rebop on Dec 14, 2007 12:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

RE:
Caminiti died from a cocaine overdose; not steroids.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Dec 14, 2007 12:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nevertheless...
abuse of steroids can also kill you and/or lead to many long-term health problems.

Technically, Caminiti died of a heart attack. While the heart attack was brought on primarily by excessive cocaine use, the coronary artery disease and enlarged heart he suffered from (which were likely the result of his past steroid abuse) were also likely contributing factors in his death.

by rebop on Dec 14, 2007 12:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think this is a great post
I pretty much agree on all counts.

by PhilR8 on Dec 14, 2007 10:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, Bud Selig needs to have been gone
for a very, very long time now. Bud, why do we loathe thee? Let us count the ways: you're a myopic, self-serving, clueless, venal, indecisive, hypocritical, disingenuous douchebag, that's why. What am I leaving out?

Perhaps worst of all, you're not even a good Pretend Commissioner, somebody who could at least consistently bluster in front of Congress and the media, giving the impression that there was some sort of central office in MLB which was at least trying to stay ahead of the curve and represent the sport's best interests for as many of its constituents as possible. But you don't. Never have.

Am I going too fast for you? You're a turd, Bud. A floater. Somebody's gotta flush you.

I was going to contribute to the Alberto Gonzales Defense Fund, but I forgot.

by Titov on Dec 14, 2007 11:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.
As to Bud Selig - he's making the owners tons of money.  Nothing else matters.

by timg56 on Dec 14, 2007 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

devastating
here is a small sampling of new york media reax.

strap it on, yankee fans!

by thewaywardO on Dec 14, 2007 12:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

RE:
Wow!  The Trentonian seems like a real class act there.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Dec 14, 2007 12:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

for what it's worth
Jayson Stark and Jerry Crasnick are really defending Roberts.  

Crasnick: "I was particularly struck by the flimsy reference to Brian Roberts: Larry Bigbie says that Roberts told him he tried steroids "once or twice'' several years ago? That hardly seems worth wrecking a guy's reputation."

by birdman on Dec 14, 2007 1:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

RE:
And stark when a little further:
And the Brian Roberts "evidence" is so flimsy, so disgraceful actually, that it wouldn't stop the Cubs from pursuing him.

"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Dec 14, 2007 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Clemens
Has anyone seen how "outraged" Clemens is that he was included in the report?  His pompous ass probably asked to be included in the report just b/c he knew he was washed up as a pitcher and the public/media might stop talking about him.  Now he can play like he is "outraged" and pretend that all his fans are "outraged."  I guess my personal dislike for him clouds my point of view but fuck this ass clown.
"Hating the Yankees is as American as apple pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income taxes." -Mike Royko

by BPinOK on Dec 14, 2007 3:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Roberts
If Roberts only dabbled in roids one or two times, as Larry Bigbie claims, he should come out and admit it.  I know he won't because it's politically untenable.  He could be retroactively punished, investigators might come after for names of dealers, public fallout and so on.  But dabbling in roids one or two times is hardly a massive offense.  Personally, I don't see it any worse than marijuana usage.  I don't advocate it but I hardly get pissed if I find out someone has done it.  If he comes out with his statement, he at least gets to control the damage of terms of public perception.  I can't remember the supreme court judge's name but whenever he was on the losing side of an upcoming vote, he would switch his vote at the last second so he could write the majority opinion.  Thus, while he might not agree with the ruling, he at least controlled how ruling will be perceived.  The same thing may apply here.  Just admit he tried it once or twice, control the damage, and hope the public will forgive him.  I know I already have.  The legal and political ramifications may prvent him from doing this but I thought I would throw this out there.  

by birdman on Dec 14, 2007 5:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Segui calls BULLSH!T
"By far that's the thing that's bothered me the most about the whole entire thing," Segui said today. "[Bigbie] threw Brian Roberts' name out on complete hearsay. Calling it hearsay would be giving it more credibility than it deserves. I'm at a loss as to why Brian Roberts' name would come out of his mouth."

From The (Baltimore) Sun.

David didn't have problems naming people. If HE says B-Rob has no connection, I'd say the evidence is starting to mouth that Bigbie's pulling sh!t out of his a$$ to make the Mitchell folks happy.

"If a bum like Aubrey Huff has that much fun, can you imagine how cool it must be to be a real baseball player?" - Rick Maese

by duck on Dec 14, 2007 9:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rasmus
Good point in link below.  The Cards trade of Edmonds could eliminate them from bedard trade because Rasmus - their best prospect - is now needed in CF.  

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/15/padres-acquire-jim-edmonds-from-cardinals/

oh well.  hey, how about macphail just keeps bedard?!?!?!

by em3 on Dec 15, 2007 12:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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