And another thing!
Look back at the 2006 Marlins. That team overachieved, had some great young players that pretty much all panned out (most of whom will wind up having played over their heads for a year), and they had this self-absorbed manager who took all the headlines and every bit of the credit -- and, to be fair, was followed around by a dump truck full of sportswriters drooling over the new hotness in managerial prowess, all of them more than happy to shovel the credit toward Girardi.
"Shovel" being the key word there, since it is so often connected with what I think of Girardi's one-year reputation.
Here's a question: If Sam Perlozzo is largely not to blame for the shortcomings of the Baltimore Orioles, which some are rushing to point out, why does Joe Girardi get so much credit for the relative success of the 78-84 Marlins of 2006?
Perlozzo doesn't pitch it or catch it or hit it. Did Girardi? This is pure, unapologetic Yankee lore bullshit applied to another situation. I'm not hating the Yankees with this statement, they're obviously the greatest franchise in the history of Major League Baseball, with no close second. But it's a fact of life that the media can easily fall in love with all that "Yankee way" crap. Girardi's main contributions to the 2006 Marlins, in my opinion:
1. Overworking pitchers for no good reason, causing them short-term damage that could very easily become long-term.
2. Yelling at Jeff Loria. Look, most of us would love to tell Jeff Loria where he can shove it, but it's a stupid thing to do. And this coming from a manager that preaches professionalism?
3. They couldn't have beards, because the Yankees don't have beards. My God.
I hate the idea of Joe Girardi because he does not fit this team. This is a team full of veteran players that is not going to take to him the same way the young, overmatched Florida Marlins did. Girardi's spring training and Opening Day speeches must have written themselves. "Guys, no one thinks you can do this. I think we can do this! Yaaah! Let's go get 'em!" And that team played their asses off for him, something for which he does deserve credit.
But it was also a team full of players who were trying to stay in the big leagues. They were hungry, they weren't millionaires, and they weren't really guaranteed anything. The Orioles are a veteran team unlikely to respond to a 43-year old manager with very little experience who is going to walk into whatever his next job is with a lot of expectations on his shoulders, and a lot of other people waiting for him to fail. Face it, professional athletes are spoiled. They're grown men playing a child's game for a lot of money, and they pretty much get to dictate everything they do. It's not the greatest thing in the world, it's just a fact of life. Can you imagine Miguel Tejada getting excited because Joe Girardi slaps him on the back real hard? Or Aubrey Huff hootin' and hollerin' after a Girardi rally cry?
Tony Pena managed the Royals for a few years. He took over early in the 2002 season, then won 83 games out of nowhere in 2003 with a team that played above their actual abilities. They were a great story, they contended for a while and finished up a year they could be proud of. When no one thought they could do anything, they at least made a little noise. Tony Pena was going to be the guy that brought a dead franchise back to life. He couldn't have gotten more praise if he wanted it. He was named the 2003 American League Manager of the Year.
The Royals lost 104 games in 2004, then started 8-25 in 2005, when Pena was canned. Hasn't managed since. And Tony Pena is the impression I get of Joe Girardi, except I don't find Pena to be wholly unlikable, and he never seemed to me like he was only out to make himself a famous manager.
I'm not saying Girardi's bad if the situation is right for him, but I don't think this one fits, and I think the results would be a disaster. If he gets hired, I'll hope I'm wrong, the same as every other time this franchise does something I wouldn't do if I were in a position to make the call.
This is also one of those situations where the team has no leverage in talking to Girardi. They clearly need a manager, because Dave Trembley sure as hell ain't gonna manage this team the rest of the year. Nobody goes from bullpen coach to manager and sticks. Tom Trebelhorn isn't really available for the extra duties, and I don't think he's on anyone's list, anyway. Mazzone has no desire to manage, thank God. And Crowley is incompetent enough trying to help people hit better.
So the Orioles hired Andy MacPhail, who made a habit of losing in Chicago already, to talk to Joe Girardi... and Girardi has every single ounce of leverage? Yeah, this all seems like a super idea. Just super.
Of course change is necessary. But they fired Sam Perlozzo without a successor lined up. It seems like they simply caved to the pressure and did something they could have waited another week to do while they got something lined up. What the hell were they going to do for the next week, not get back into contention?
The whole thing just doesn't feel good, even though I agree in principle with what went down with Perlozzo.
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actually...
And that's a good thing.
Sam even thinks a drill sergeant may be needed. BTW, Trembley is probably the most qualified guy on the current staff to be the Orioles' manager. While I agree he won't be there permanently, I think he's qualified.
by howie14 on Jun 19, 2007 9:24 AM EDT reply actions
I'm all for tearing some of them a new one, BUT
Look, I'm all for a good reaming when deserved. But this team won't respond to it. Hell, there are even reports of guys rolling their eyes when Millar's players-only meeting was announced.
This group doesn't care. This group must go. But until then, this group is what you've got. And Joe Girardi walking into town like a new sheriff with a big gun ain't solving anything.
-Michael Waltrip (NASCAR's equivalent of the O's)
RE:
I'm not sure that a this team won't respond to a good reaming; I can't think of a manager who has really tried this.
That being said, I would still rather have Davey; but I don't think Girardi would be a horrible choice either.
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jun 19, 2007 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Think like chess, not checkers
We get a ass-kicking screamer. Great. So, he kicks some ass and screams. Win a few games, but turns off the roster. Tejada tunes out, Mora never really tuned in, Roberts counts the days until he's a free agent, and Millar just plain quits after he sees the reaction of his teammates.
So NOW what? Wholesale trades and cuts? When, aside from the 1997 off-season when Florida had a true firesale, has it ever happened?
IF we hire Girardi, and I am NOT convinced it's the right play, where's the plan for long-term success? Without that, Girardi might as well be screaming at the wall and kicking the ass of clubhouse attendants for all the good it will do.
-Michael Waltrip (NASCAR's equivalent of the O's)
Plan
Hiring a manager who will work well with vets like Mora makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
RE:
I'm really tired of adding one or two guys every offseason with the glimmering hope that we may be able to get lucky and sneak into the wildcard; while in reality it's more likely that we beat out the Rays again.
But as for the manager and players getting pissed, if that happens and we distance Mora, Roberts, Tejada, Millar then so the fuck what? If that means they don't play as well, then I don't want them anyway.
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jun 19, 2007 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
by hiring Girardi
this team is not going to keep the vets, they can't. they eat up too much cash, and frankly, they fucking suck. this team needs to be blown up and the only survivors should be roberts, bedard, markakis, millar, hoey, guthrie and walker.
everyone else should be dumped -- we can get a good return for burres, traschel and tejada. fuck gibbons, i'll take a bag of balls for him and the same goes for mora. while i respect him for going to elrod's funeral, he whiny bullshit since then has pissed me off. baez can go work at taco bell, let's unload huff on whoever will take him and on and on. sorry, this is kind of rambling.
re:
The problem with this (although you are absolutely correct) is that the front office isn't aware.
by Scott Christ on Jun 19, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
A point of disagreement
You keep applying logic to an owner who doesn't use it in his decision-making.
-Michael Waltrip (NASCAR's equivalent of the O's)
Why Joe Girardi
he spent his career controlling the psyche of pitchers (the most mentally unstable baseball players out there). successful catchers understand the mechanics and ins and outs of pitching because they have to...its as simple as that.
also they spend their careers studying batters. theyre the guys tellin pitchers where to throw, who hits low and away, who swings on the first pitch, etc. Im sure this knowledge is transferable over to developing batters as well.
Joe Girardi is a monster, he's got nothing to lose and everything to prove. hes an outside guy, so if it doesnt work out nobody has to feel bad abt firing him. and what was that talk about "destroying his pitchers" in south florida...um, how about what our last 2 managers did with their bullpens? trust me, girardi's a risk worth taking. Besides, you guys all really think Davey Johnson wants anything to do with sad-sack organization with its hapless personnel? Gimme a break. He's a pipe dream and we all know it. Davey Johnson will return just like the orioles have the pieces to make a run at the division every April. Let's get joe girardi and get a hold of ray miller again and see what happens. Besides, even if Girardi loses 162 straight games, you can be sure on the way out he will tell Tejada, Mora, and Gibbons that they are jokes of athletes, products of steroids, and are entirely self absorbed in spite of their incessant failures.
Just imagine...a clubhouse with Joe Girardi AND Kevin Millar...
by southJerzey on Jun 19, 2007 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
If they hire
by Jonnypops on Jun 19, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd make the plunge
-Michael Waltrip (NASCAR's equivalent of the O's)
Girardi
Amen to that
right
by Scott Christ on Jun 19, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
re:
If you need to turn around a bunch of losers, yelling doesn't work. They need well-defined goals, a well-defined process that helps attain the goals, and it must be known that all will be held accountable. I haven't seen a "yelling prick" do anything but ultimately alienate everyone.
i just don't see...
we've talked ad infinitum about the chnages that need to made and although we definitely gave perlozzo a botload criticism, many issues w/ the club are driven by personnel.
whose responsibility is that?
by jq higgins on Jun 19, 2007 9:51 AM EDT reply actions
Missing the point
Brian Roberts
Corey Patterson
Nick Markakis
Freddie Bynum
Erik Bedard
Daniel Cabrera
Jeremy Guthrie
Chris Ray
Danys Baez
John Parrish
Brian Burres
Jim Hoey
Corey Doyne
With a couple notable exceptions (Patterson and Baez, maybe Ray) these are the players worth keeping. Oh sure, we'll have to probably keep Mora and Gibbons because of their contracts, but pretty much everybody else over 30 should be dealt. So in other words, I really don't give a fuck how Tejada, Millar, Huff, Payton, Bradford, Walker, Trachsel, and so forth feel about a 43 year-old manager. I want them gone by the trading deadline anyway. If going after Girardi indicates that the front office urgently wants to make this a younger team, that's a very, very good thing. How the current Orioles feel about Girardi is pretty much irrelevant.
by crawjo on Jun 19, 2007 11:00 AM EDT reply actions
I think the main objections to Girardi are...
- He's a shameless self-promoter
- He's an autocratic dick. (Yes, I like that phrase)
- He's getting love for ONE season of managing where he finished 6 games below .500
- There are, arguably, better options available.
- His use of young pitchers is questionable at best. I know, as we've been screaming for Brain Surgeon Sam to leave pitchers IN games, this may sound hypocritical, but I'll leave it to SC to provide the details.
- Joe Girardi represents the worst of this FO - the one-stop fix. "Now that we have the right manager, this very good team will start winning!" No, it won't. They are NOT a very good team, and if giving Girardi the reigns buy them 2 more years of spinning their wheels in self-delusion as they sign overpriced washed up vets, than he is yet another manifestation of the problem, not the solution.
-Michael Waltrip (NASCAR's equivalent of the O's)
Girardi
(a) so what, and (b) on what are you basing this comment?
He's an autocratic dick. (Yes, I like that phrase)
That's probably what the team needs. Perlozzo and Mazzilli were far too laid back. The team has terrible fundamentals, and is sloppy and lazy as a result.
Joe Girardi represents the worst of this FO - the one-stop fix. "Now that we have the right manager, this very good team will start winning!" No, it won't. They are NOT a very good team, and if giving Girardi the reigns buy them 2 more years of spinning their wheels in self-delusion as they sign overpriced washed up vets, than he is yet another manifestation of the problem, not the solution.
Assumes facts not in evidence. How do you know that hiring Girardi won't be a sign that the team is preparing to make other, far more significant changes?
re:
Past experience.
by Jonnypops on Jun 19, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah
by Scott Christ on Jun 19, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
True
I'm probably being too optimistic, but I think the MacPhail hiring is a far more positive sign than Perlozzo's firing. Say what you want about MacPhail, but he built a winner in Minn., and has a lot of baseball experience. I don't think he'd take a job like this without assurances that he'll have the authority to make his own decisions. I hope that his hiring means that Angelos recognizes that the problems are far deeper than Perlozzo, and that he's hired MacPhail to oversee and rebuild all of the baseball operations. IOW, we'll finally have a grownup in charge.
re:
Kruk-"Someone put this team together, and it wasn't the manager"
I don't really want either Girardi but . . .
What bugs me is that a lot of the complaints with Girardi seem to be centered around the fact he's connected to the Yankees and that he might be a jerk, neither of which are good reasons to immediately dismiss a candidate.
The best manager the Orioles ever had and the third or fourth greatest manager of all time was Earl Weaver and let me tell you, Earl Weaver was not a nice man. He was a self-centered egotist who took as much credit for the Orioles success as he could and stuck as much blame on his players when things went wrong as possible. He displayed almost no loyalty to his players whatsoever (which I think is a positive thing) and looked at literally everybody with an eye towards eventually replacing them. At times he was blisteringly abusive towards his guys and thought nothing about berating them in public, but had possibly even thinner skin than Peter Angelos when any criticism was sent his way. On top of this, he was vulgar little troll who chain-smoked and got into stupid arguments with little provocation.
Do want proof? Listen to this:
http://slacklalane.blogspot.com/2006/04/earl-weaver-awesome.html
or watch this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kl-4FSRYagc
But who cares? The guy knew what he was doing and won a ton of games. There is a reason people say nice guys finish last. A lot of people liked or felt bad for Sammy because they thought he was a nice guy. I could care less, he never showed he knew what he was doing or indicated that he deserved to run a Major League baseball team. Screw him, good riddance to bad rubbish.
If the next guy is a total dick and the current players don't like him, who cares? Most of them are lucky they're employed. If Aubrey Huff and Jay Gibbons don't respond to a pat on the back, maybe they'll respond to the fact that pretty much any AAA guy deserves their roster spots more than they do. If it takes a total dick to make that clear, so be it.
Well...
I for one wonder if all this is worth it. It seems to me like going from Perlozzo to Girardi is going to be quite a culture shock, and that we'd be way better off if the new manager was older and more experienced like Johnson. Baseball players will defer to an old hardass like Davey who's done it all. But Girardi? We might just end up with fistfights and more drama.
I don't want the manager to be everybody's buddy, or to even try to be like Mazzilli and Perlozzo did. But we need to be realistic too.
One note on Earl though. The man was certainly not nice for much of his tenure in Baltimore. That was his schtick, his trademark. That he was one tough son-of-a-bitch and you better think three times before crossing him. But I saw him, in his sunny retirement, at a ST game in Lauderdale last year and the man could not have been more generous with his time. He sat right next to the dugout and between every inning of the game he signed autographs for everyone who would come up to him. Now I'm sure we probably wouldn't have seen anything resembling this back in the day. But it was really nice to see.
by Jonnypops on Jun 19, 2007 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair to Girardi
Overall, though I don't know much about Girardi but I have a gut feeling he's another flavor of the month candidate. JC Bradbury had a good post about the Marlins and Girardi on his blog.
http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2007/06/how-not-to-run-a-baseball-franchise/
"Girardi won the award is that the Marlins were not expected to win many games, yet the team was competitive most of the season. The voters surmised Girardi must be the reason, but the voters missed that the Marlins success had much more to do with the front office than its manager. Without Girardi, the Marlins are on a pace to win about the same number of games they won last year. In my book, I find Florida to be the best managed organization in baseball before Girardi even showed up. The Marlins were happy to let Girardi go because they knew he had little to do with the team's success. Looks like the O's are going after the next hot thing without really thinking about it."
Managerial Temperment
Of the things I've heard about Girardi, the one that really bugs me is his overworking his his young pitchers. That's the kind of behavior that managers who don't "get it" like Dusty Baker display. I could care less that he didn't get along with his employer or was a self-promoter or whatever. If he knew what he was doing (which he may not) and got in, say, Jay Gibbons' or Aubrey Huff's (I love picking on them) face and waved his World Series rings around saying "what do you know about winning anything?" That's fine. Davey Johnson wasn't above doing that, you know. By the same token, if the key to winning is pulling a Connie Mack or a Joe Torre and being everybody's father/brother/priest/best friend, that's great too. Whatever works is OK with me as long as it works.
Not that this excuses such behavior
But the Marlins were in the playoff hunt so he wasn't engaging in such behavior senselessly. That said, the A's are always in the playoff hunt and they're excellent in keeping pitch counts down for young pitchers.
What the O's don't need...
"On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage," Baker said. "Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me."
this is not what the O's need as their new manager.
by Dave at Bottomfeeder Baseball on Jun 19, 2007 12:24 PM EDT reply actions
sc
Were are you Davey Johnson?
by westcoastOfan on Jun 19, 2007 12:59 PM EDT reply actions
By the way, not to state the obvious, but...
Marlins' 2007 winning percentage (so far) under Gonzales: .471
It would seem the Marlins FO assembled a group of guys that play just under .500 ball regardless of who is managing them.
Why does Girardi get an award for this again?
well...
by sportsman885 @ Camden Chat on Jun 19, 2007 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
the picture of Girardi with this diary...
have the O's EVER had a badass looking manager? was Frank still badass when he had the keys?
by Dave at Bottomfeeder Baseball on Jun 19, 2007 6:16 PM EDT reply actions
Girardi
re:
by Scott Christ on Jun 19, 2007 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
also
by Scott Christ on Jun 19, 2007 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly
by Scott Christ on Jun 20, 2007 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions

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