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A few thoughts on Mike Mussina

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Have I forgiven Mike Mussina?

I've rationalized on his behalf before, many times, right here on this blog. If you're bored enough, you can look up the umpteen Mussina discussions and find that I'm pretty consistent.

I hated that he went to New York. Why couldn't he have gone to the Dodgers or something? Or even the Mets? I don't give a damn about the New York Mets. Why the Yankees?

But I never blamed him for it. I blamed Peter Angelos for driving out a man that could have had a chance at going down as the greatest Orioles pitcher of them all, even better than Jim Palmer. (And, no, he didn't quite get to Palmer's level even with his whole career counted, but even still he remains the second-greatest starting pitcher in Baltimore Orioles history.)

So, again, have I forgiven him?

I think it's time I can say that I never truly hated him at all. Not once. Not for a single moment. It was easy to root against him when he was in my face; when he was hurling for the Yankees and against the Orioles. Maybe if the Orioles had been competitive during his time in New York, it would have been different, and I would have been a full-time Moose hater.

But I'm not trying to change reality here. I can only tell the truth, which is that when he wasn't on the hill against our Birds, I still rooted for Mike Mussina, and I didn't care what jersey he wore.

I rooted for Moose because he was one of my first "inspirations" as a Little League baseball player. I played lots of positions, but mainly, I pitched. I was OK. I didn't have a great fastball, and being a bit of a nerd, I decided it'd be best if I learned to change speeds and focus more on location. Mussina and Greg Maddux -- those were my guys. I wouldn't say I studied them, because I was just a kid playing ball, but those were the guys I tried to be like. Those were my pitching heroes.

It's pretty hard to start hating your heroes, even once you're too old to have hero ballplayers anymore, and when who's on what team starts mattering more and more to your level of "dedication" as a fan.

I was happy for Mike that he got 20 wins this year. Honestly, given how irrelevant our team has been since his departure (and a bit before that), I wouldn't have given much of a hoot if he had won the World Series one time or five times with the Yankees.

Sure, I revel in Yankee failure like any Yankee hater does. I could hate on Clemens, hate on Pettitte, hate on Jeter and Posada and Bernie and Ruben Sierra and Shane Spencer and all the rest of those jerks. But not Mike Mussina.

Because Mike Mussina was our guy long before he was theirs. And when time comes for really looking back, I think history is going to remember Mike Mussina as a Baltimore Oriole, and not a New York Yankee. I know I sure as hell will.

He gave us a lot. Management wasn't willing to give back. I hope he makes the Hall of Fame, which I think he's earned. I hope we see Mike Mussina donning an Orioles cap and jersey at least one more time. I hope he comes back to Camden Yards someday and gets the ovation he so richly deserves from this team's fans.

Enjoy your retirement, Mike.

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yup
"He gave us a lot. Management wasn’t willing to give back. I hope he makes the Hall of Fame, which I think he deserves. I hope we see Mike Mussina donning an Orioles cap and jersey at least one more time. I hope he comes back to Camden Yards someday and gets the ovation he so richly deserves from this team’s fans.

Enjoy your retirement, Mike."

In short…word.

"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again."

by 2632 on Nov 20, 2008 9:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I hope he comes back to Camden Yards someday and gets the ovation he so richly deserves from this team’s fans.

That would be quite interesting, but I just don’t see it happening. It would be extremely weird and awkward if he asked to be put in as a Yankee, ended up going in as an Oriole, and then had to return to Baltimore for all the nostalgic events. Mussina would initially get quite a few of boos at OPACY, and I can’t see him ever being a presence like Cal/Brooks/Palmer have been. It would be strange to say the least.

My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver

by Baltimo on Nov 20, 2008 10:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

he's not going to be Cal or Brooks or Jim or Boog

But he deserves to be given respect for what he did here. Eddie Murray had a nasty falling-out with the team, too, even though he did come back later. Mussina is part of this team’s history.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by SC on Nov 20, 2008 10:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Undoubtedly

I was merely remarking that it’d be strange. I think Moose would make as many appearances in Baltimore as Robinson.

My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver

by Baltimo on Nov 20, 2008 10:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well they have to put him in the O's hall of fame

They have to. And I doubt he’ll get booed.

[Guthrie's] president of my heart. ~PhilR8

by Stacey on Nov 20, 2008 10:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ignorant fans boo traded players

But the night Mussina goes in, I’m sure it’ll be mostly appreciative fans. But man, it seems like so long ago that the O’s when Oriole Park had just opened up and Moose/Cal were Gods on earth. Comparatively speaking, it seems like I don’t even get any enjoyment out of the Orioles anymore, yet I will always spend far too much time/money on this franchise.

My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver

by Baltimo on Nov 20, 2008 10:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice grammar

My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver

by Baltimo on Nov 20, 2008 10:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Last time I checked

he wasn’t traded.

Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.

by duck on Nov 21, 2008 6:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

?

My point was that if some people have the audacity to boo traded players, they’ll surely jeer at guys who left on a bad note via free agency.

My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver

by Baltimo on Nov 21, 2008 7:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

leaving on free agency

is a lot different than being traded.

But this was one was more on PA than Mussina

"This world extends way beyond this little field of dreams we're dancing in and I want to see that world"

by exitfare on Nov 21, 2008 10:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure I see what you're getting at

If a player leaves as a free agent, in many cases, it’s worse than being traded.

My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver

by Baltimo on Nov 21, 2008 11:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope he comes back to Camden Yards someday and gets the ovation he so richly deserves from this team’s fans.

I hope he throws the first pitch on opening day next season.

Zartan says, "Sign Dan Johnson."

by birdman on Nov 20, 2008 10:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'll miss that fbi_evan

[Guthrie's] president of my heart. ~PhilR8

by Stacey on Nov 20, 2008 11:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I used to idolize Mussina too.

He was the best pitcher to come up for the O’s during my lifetime. In his days with the team a Mussina start was like holiday coming every 5 days during the regular season. I loved watching the guy pitch.

But then he left..and that was that. For me it’s not about the players. It’s about the team. The players will leave. They come and go, as Mussina painfully demonstrated. The team is what’s constant.

Now you give me a player that loves the team as much as I do, like Cal or Brooks or Palmer or BJ Surhoff, or even Eddie, who went away but we know where his heart was, and that is something special. That is a player I can celebrate. But not Mussina. Sure we had some good times…like me and my ex-gf did. But now it’s over and I’m not getting hung up on it. The team is like a marriage however. It’s forever, and those special players who are in on that get my undying respect.

by Jonny Pops on Nov 21, 2008 9:44 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

We're rooting for laundry

I’m usually not a Seinfeld fan, but in this case, he was dead right. We’re rooting for laundry.

Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.

by duck on Nov 21, 2008 9:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I get that

And I agree about rooting for the team, not the player. That’s my philosophy too. But it doesn’t mean you can’t like players once they leave as well and respect their talent, and honor them when it’s appropriate.

I’m not sure what the ex-girlfriend equivalent to an old player retiring is…maybe dying? That’s sort of morbid. But just because she’s your ex doesn’t mean you don’t have fond memories of her and that you can’t remember the good times in your relationship.

And if you’re only going to love and respect players that stick with their teams forever then you have a tough road ahead of you, my friend. Baseball isn’t like that anymore.

[Guthrie's] president of my heart. ~PhilR8

by Stacey on Nov 21, 2008 10:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Now

not everybody feels this way with their exes, but for me, when it’s over, there’s been good and bad times in the past, it didn’t work out and I move on. I don’t sit around longingly thinking about the good times. That’s kind of unhealthy.

And let ‘s be honest. People don’t love their players. They love them when they’re doing good for the team. It’s a self serving affection, and once the player starts playing shitty people start cursing at him and turn their backs. My point is personally I can’t take this loving players too seriously given the dynamics at play, except in special circumstances. I do love the team though.

by Jonny Pops on Nov 21, 2008 10:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well I never used the word "longingly"

just to be clear. But if you have a long relationship with a person then you break up with them, that’s it? You just never think about them again? Are you a robot? I mean, not that it’s the same with athletes; it’s not. But I was just using your analogy.

[Guthrie's] president of my heart. ~PhilR8

by Stacey on Nov 21, 2008 10:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Uhhh...I'm not a robot...

…last time I checked. I just prefer to leave the past in the past. Works better for my wife too.

by Jonny Pops on Nov 21, 2008 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know you and I don't care for each other's opinions...

… but that was a great line.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Nov 21, 2008 12:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This...

…is an opinion I do care for!

by Jonny Pops on Nov 21, 2008 1:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rec'd

It’s a perfect counter to my feelings, I’d say.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by SC on Nov 21, 2008 12:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I never cared about Mussina and the Yankees. I guess that by that point in time, I didn’t take any of the sports allegiance stuff seriously. Plus, Angelos was then, and remains a baseball dolt. The guy went to work for someone who would pay more. I’d work for a rival company in similar circumstances.

I just hope that if he goes into the HOF, he at least wears a blank hat. Even if for some reason it is an O’s cap, I can’t see Baltimore fans making the trek to Cooperstown for Mussina.

by drj on Nov 21, 2008 10:02 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Folks.

I hate to burst all of your bubbles. But if he enters the Hall of Fame, I find it very unlikely he’d do so as an Oriole. He bears no affection for the team, owner or city and loved playing in New York. I mean stranger things have happened, but don’t get your hopes up.

by Jonny Pops on Nov 21, 2008 10:05 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

did he love playing in New York?

The media got up his ass almost as soon as he got there because he didn’t talk a lot and when he did he was a smartass, the (majority of the) fans never seemed to appreciate him until this year despite the fact that he gave them a lot of good years, and it always seemed like he was battling for acceptance. Maybe that was just my perception.

Anyway it’s not up to the player anymore what cap goes on his plaque. They put the kibosh on that shit when Wade Boggs was going to go in as a fuckin’ Devil Ray, and made him go in as a Red Sox, despite that his departure from Boston was not so friendly. Then he started wearing Yankee caps everywhere. Wade Boggs is a sellout.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by SC on Nov 21, 2008 12:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Anyway it’s not up to the player anymore what cap goes on his plaque. They put the kibosh on that shit when Wade Boggs was going to go in as a fuckin’ Devil Ray, and made him go in as a Red Sox, despite that his departure from Boston was not so friendly.

Yup, and Clemens wants to go in as a Yankee. Moose should

Zartan says, "Sign Dan Johnson."

by birdman on Nov 21, 2008 12:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oops, didn't finish typing

Moose should enter the Hall as an Oriole. His wishes don’t determine hat choice.

Zartan says, "Sign Dan Johnson."

by birdman on Nov 21, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The impression...

…I always got from the New York media (who admittedly are unaware how anyone could not love NY) was that he loved playing for NYY. One nugget that sticks out is Ken Singleton (who due to his O’s connections is slightly more reliable to me at least) telling how he asked Mussina, when his contract was up, if he had considered returning to Baltimore. He said Mussina laughed at him, then launched into a thing about how the stands are filled every night in New York and they have a shot at the World Series every year.

by Jonny Pops on Nov 21, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he asked Mussina, when his contract was up, if he had considered returning to Baltimore. He said Mussina laughed at him, then launched into a thing about how the stands are filled every night in New York and they have a shot at the World Series every year.

Yeah, that doesn’t suprise me, but I think it’s more of a reflection that the Orioles are a losing team at this moment (and the last 10 years of course) rather than his distaste for city of BAL or the franchise as a whole.

Zartan says, "Sign Dan Johnson."

by birdman on Nov 21, 2008 2:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It's not his choice

The HOF chooses the team. I’m sure the player can voice his opinion but the HOF picks. Hopefully, they’ll recognize that he spent more years as an Oriole and more prime years as well.

Zartan says, "Sign Dan Johnson."

by birdman on Nov 21, 2008 12:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah?

I did not know that was the case.

But honestly though, what faith do you have that MLB and the HoF would do Baltimore a solid and put him in in an Oriole uniform? Given the way things seem to work in this game, I don’t have much. If there’s any sort of specious argument that can be made that benefits NYY or Boston in this game, it generally comes to pass. See MVP: Pedroia, Dustin.

by Jonny Pops on Nov 21, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But honestly though, what faith do you have that MLB and the HoF would do Baltimore a solid and put him in in an Oriole uniform?

At this point, I’m not sure because the rule is relatively new and there hasn’t been a good test case yet. Piazza should be a good test case. He should go in as a Dodger for the same reason as Mussina, but maybe he’ll go in as a Met due to a NY bias (which I don’t know exists, we’ll see).

Zartan says, "Sign Dan Johnson."

by birdman on Nov 21, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

HoF plaques

I believe the HoF took over the decision-making after word got out that the Padres paid Dave Winfield to choose their cap. I can’t imagine what he would have chosen otherwise – he feuded with Steinbrenner, and only spent a year or two in one place after that. Maybe the Jays, since he won a WS there? Or the Twins, since he got his 3000th there and he was from Minnesota?

So yeah, they didn’t want teams bribing players to pick them. I’m not sure how often that would have come up, but there you go.

by Brotz13 on Nov 21, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also

Wade Boggs was talking about going in as a Ray. No way they wanted that to happen.

Clemens is another case. He should probably be a Sox. But if he makes it in it’ll be as a Yankee, right?

by pipkin on Nov 21, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Clemens

He’s not going in as a Yankee. Again, the HOF taking control of this decision was done to prevent this type of nonsense. He’s going in as a Red Sox. If he goes in as a Yankee, giving control of this decision to the HOF is a joke.

Zartan says, "Sign Dan Johnson."

by birdman on Nov 21, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The decision is made by both the player and the HOF committee

That is to say, both are involved. The HOF has final say, but they will ask the player for input.

Boggs did not go as a Devil Ray partially because the Rays were offering him incentives to choose them for his cap—and that’s when the HOF decided to change the rule. The same thing happened with Gary Carter and the Mets/Expos.

So Mussina will get to state a preference, for sure. The HOF will then decide if they want to honor it. My guess is that they will find the records and years for the teams comparable enough that it’s a wash and will go with his preference. As much as I want him to go in as an Oriole, as much as his stats are better as an Oriole, if Moose states unequivocally that he wants a Yankee cap, odds are the HOF will not have a strong reason to counter his wishes.

by zknower on Nov 21, 2008 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So Mussina will get to state a preference, for sure. The HOF will then decide if they want to honor it.

Yes, I believe the criteria in choosing which team is something like “most lasting impact” type of language. The player can state an opinion but the “most lasting impact” jazz is the first concern, sort of like how performance is the foremost concern in HOF voting over character. In Mussina’s case, I think fair argument could be made for the Orioles over the Yankees.

Zartan says, "Sign Dan Johnson."

by birdman on Nov 21, 2008 5:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't care

if Clemens went in as a Yankee or an Astro or whatever. Nor would I much care if Boggs had gone in as a Ray, or if Manny goes as an Indian. I would probably be disappointed if Pedro went in as something other than a Red Sox though. But in the end, what do I care? It ain’t my plaque.

by Awesome Mike Awesome on Nov 21, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I care about Moose’s case but my opinion, and fan opinion in general, shouldn’t matter. The HOF should be concerned about representing history “correctly” which shouldn’t be left to the fans.

Zartan says, "Sign Dan Johnson."

by birdman on Nov 21, 2008 5:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm guessing you haven't been to Cooperstown

You should care.

The Red Sox section is depressingly bare.

by dkdc on Nov 22, 2008 12:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have been to Cooperstown

and IIRC the plaques are not arranged according to team though perhaps something has changed. But that is beside the point — if I wanted to choose what hat went on the plaque, I should have gotten all the hits or won all the games. It is nice to know you are depressed by the dearth of Red Sox items in the HOF though. Perhaps write a letter?

by Awesome Mike Awesome on Nov 22, 2008 7:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He bears no affection for the team, owner or city and loved playing in New York.

Also, I may be missing something, but I agree that he bears no affection for the owner, but the city and team? And I don’t know if he loved playing in NY either, he was comfortable, but loved?

Zartan says, "Sign Dan Johnson."

by birdman on Nov 21, 2008 12:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Scott, my sentiments echo yours almost exactly.

I too root for the team. To the point that I will wish success to and root for a player I might otherwise have disliked when he wore a different uniform. But, at least in my opinion, rooting just for the team name on the jersey without getting caught up in the person filling that jersey is a one-dimensional approach.

The players are no more robots than Jonny Pops. They are not pieces of printed cardboard, or lines of print in a box score. They are people earning a living and providing us with enjoyment at the same time. It is natural to admire them, whether it be for the level of accomplishment in their profession, the quality of their character or just something in them that speaks to us as a person. Having reached that point of admiration, there is no logical reason to abandon it without the player doing something low enough to invalidate what created the sense of admiration in the first place. Going to another team hardly reaches that level. At least not in the last 20 years or so, when players switching teams has become the norm.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Nov 21, 2008 12:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I have to admit though

that this general disloyalty makes it hard for me to have the same love that I once did. Yes, I still follow the O’s passionately, but I fear the worst when it comes to things like player-team commitments.

Am I waisting my time and money on those Nick Markakis items that I purchase?

There was a day when a player like that would have been secured without second thought, yet the Orioles delay and are likely pissing him of more and more each day he isn’t getting the money he deserves. It’s not him being greedy, it’s the franchise being trying to squeeze all the production out of a player that they can get before they breakdown and offer an big-money extension. Get it done Andy!!!

by sickuvitall on Nov 22, 2008 3:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

By the way...

for those who do enjoy a good piece of O’s memorabilia, the Frederick Keys are giving away a Nick Markakis bobblehead on July 25 next season. I know it is far away, but I thought it deserved mention.

by sickuvitall on Nov 22, 2008 3:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was pretty indifferent to Johnny Oates until he said "I didn't talk to Moose about anything except baseball

‘cause I didn’t want him to think I was stupid"— then I really liked the guy.

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.

by Titov on Nov 22, 2008 6:18 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

jesus christ but you all are lost.

Yes, I should say that, which, I should say that.

by thewaywardO on Nov 22, 2008 10:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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