The state of the shortstop
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 3, 2008 5:15 PM EST
56 comments
Tom Verducci of SI.com posted a pretty fantastic commentary on the current state of shortstops in baseball.
What it really boils down to is that the day of the heavy hitting shortstop is over. It's rare that a shortstop will both hit and field at a high level.
Why does this relate to the Orioles? Well, the comments by Andy MacPhail and Dave Trembley to look for an offensively minded shortstop are unrealistic. They don't exist in any high numbers. In fact, if you're looking at the position purely by OPS, you'll find that the NL East is a total anomaly. Hanley Ramirez, Jose Reyes and Jimmy Rollins are the exception to the rule that shortstops, given that great defense is so necessary at their position, don't need to have an OPS over 100. Hell, somewhere in the 80s would be fantastic.
They need to change their tune. Finding a slick fielding SS with a BA around .270 would be perfect for this team, given the lineup of the future.
Sidebar:
The article also alludes to the necessary shift, for most shortstops (Omar Vizquel is the largest outlier in the game), to a different position as they age. Is it realistic to say this? I think so. The problem seems to be ego. Players like Tejada, clinging to past glory at shortstop, need to let go and move to a position better reflecting their abilities with the bat instead of inabilities with a glove.
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by OBP do you mean OPS+?
An OBP of .100 would be highly detrimental.
"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum
by SC on Dec 3, 2008 7:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
but it is surely
the OBP of our SS’s last season
"This world extends way beyond this little field of dreams we're dancing in and I want to see that world"
by exitfare on Dec 3, 2008 7:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for pointing this out
And yes, Louis Louis detrimental.
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 3, 2008 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My fave stat from 2007:
OPS from Oriole shortstops: 527
OPS from Cubs pitchers: 524
It’s a sad day when Cesar Izturis is a significant upgrade.
And as far as the days of the heavy hitting shortstops being over…I think it’s a little early to say that…
Librarians are hiding something
by dfa on Dec 3, 2008 7:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Zambrano and Marquis can swing the bat, man
Which is why I think Marquis should stay in the NL…or simply away from the Os.
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 3, 2008 10:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They probably were better with the glove too
This will be my signature until the Orioles get a real SS.
by CoachOfEarl on Dec 4, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this just in
khalil greene is heading to St. Louis.. so rule him out, darn, i know right? http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/khalil-greene-d.html
What up?
by snakethejake on Dec 4, 2008 12:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I like Greene a lot,
but it’s going to be hard rooting for him in Cardinal red…I loathe that team.
Also, I’m pretty happy he won’t be the Orioles shortstop next season.
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 4, 2008 1:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No offense to Khalil Greene
but what is there to like about Khalil Greene besides looking like Spicolli.
Also, heres a fun game. Matt Ryan Khalil Greene. See how long you can go.
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
by jobe on Dec 4, 2008 3:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
He is the first member of the Baha’i Faith to play professional baseball. I root for him because we share a common Faith.
His numbers have fallen off over the last few years but I root for him as a player. There are a few players I feel that kind of affinity towards.
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 4, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i remember you saying you lived in chicago
Do you go to the Bahai temple in wilmette. i got family all over that area.
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
by jobe on Dec 4, 2008 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whenever I get the chance, yeah
Sweet! Yeah, I live on the border of Chicago and Evanston right now.
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 4, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This has
zero to do with the Faith thing but he’s always been on my short list (along with Pat Burrell and JD Drew) of players I can’t stand for no apparent reason. Sorry.
Always trust your cape. -Guy Clark
by BPinOK on Dec 4, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mind
There are a few guys that just rub me the wrong way too.
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 4, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also just in
Wilson to DET http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/12/tigers-acquire.html …dammit.
Quick, snag Izturis!
Curt never met a buttered roll he didn't like.
by CoachOfEarl on Dec 4, 2008 1:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This was immediately rescinded
Doesn’t seem like this rumor is true…yet, but it could be soon.
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 4, 2008 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
Well I’d rather have Izzy anyway
This will be my signature until the Orioles get a real SS.
by CoachOfEarl on Dec 4, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Likewise
The players it would take to get him, plus the addition of his salary would be too much.
Izturis is fine for two seasons. However, in those two seasons a shortstop must be harvested.
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 4, 2008 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I could go longer
Iz will be 29 next year, and we’ll probably need more than that to develop a replacement.
Yeah, I don’t see Mac putting a timely trade for Wilson together, although we must have someone disposable that the Bucs could use.
This will be my signature until the Orioles get a real SS.
by CoachOfEarl on Dec 5, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never liked the hitting middle infielder thing
It’s fine if they can field, but once they started putting 2B/SS guys in for their bats, things went downhill imho.
2B is the new SS as far as that goes…Uggla, Utley (who can field), Kinsler, A-Ram.
Curt never met a buttered roll he didn't like.
by CoachOfEarl on Dec 4, 2008 1:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I could care less about a shortstop/catcher at the plate. As long as they can do their jobs defensively then they should have spots on the team.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Dec 5, 2008 7:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And yet, we get to watch Ramon next year
not block balls or throw out baserunners.
This will be my signature until the Orioles get a real SS.
by CoachOfEarl on Dec 5, 2008 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll be pushing this until June
Grant Green is the answer at this point.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Dec 4, 2008 11:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I heard keith law say he's the best position prospect at this point
And he’ll be gone by the time the O’s pick.
by birdman on Dec 5, 2008 3:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
1.) The Nats are undoubtedly going to get Strasburg after their Crow fiasco.
2.) Seattle may actually bite on Green, but in all likelihood they’ll look to add pitching with Yuniskey being a pretty solid SS.
3.) The Padres pose the biggest threat; I was hoping against hope that they’d keep Greene and Khalil would light it up going into June. However, now that they’ve dumped him, I see them going for Grant Green at third overall. San Diego actually tried to draft this guy coming out of high school, but they were too cheap and he ended up enrolling at USC. Hopefully they make the same mistake twice, I’ll outline some possible risks below.
4.) I don’t believe the Pirates would draft Green even if he falls this low. Although Bixler is far from a standout, they have dire needs to address elsewhere. It would be outrageously comical, though, if Huntington did end up passing on another stand out positional prospect, represented by Boras, to the Orioles.
Basically, the only thing we have going for us right now is that Green is represented by Scott Boras. Boras is going to set the bar for his own clients by pushing Strasburg’s contract so high that guys like Green are able to ride the coattails for higher salaries. I think that he’ll be able to do this because there would be actual riots by both Nationals fans should Washington somehow lose Strasburg.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Dec 5, 2008 7:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's way to early
especially since Green’s stock may fell between now and draft day. If he’s still the best position prospect next June, he’s not falling to number 5 because teams don’t draft for need, they draft best talent available… even the Pirates.
by birdman on Dec 5, 2008 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if Huntington did end up passing on another stand out positional prospect, represented by Boras, to the Orioles.
Also Huntington did not pass on Wieters. That was Dave Littlefield.
by birdman on Dec 5, 2008 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
huntington/boras
I do wonder if the Alvarez experience has soured Huntington on Boras clients, or if it has no affect whatsoever.
Librarians are hiding something
by dfa on Dec 5, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Green will be gone, though for the next six months I will be doing everything I can to make him slide to #5.
Librarians are hiding something
by dfa on Dec 5, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NO Dunn or Burnett! We need to be able to draft the Grant Greens in future drafts.
by birdman on Dec 5, 2008 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
if i’m not mistaken, picks 1-15 are excluded from the free agent compensation rule and, in any case, dunn wouldn’t cost a draft pick.
"When people ask me what my motivation is, I have a simple answer: Money."
--Jerry Reed, on acting
by j.q. higgins on Dec 5, 2008 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but what I’m talking about is chasing after 4-6 meaningless wins by picking up Dunn or Burnett. This team will suck w/ or w/o these guys. Let the team’s suckiness take its natural course next season and take the higher draft pick in 2010 so we’re in a position take the next Grant Green.
by birdman on Dec 5, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure why you guys are pushing this so hard
Grant Green isn’t a Matt Wieters type prospect, rather he is just a very good hitter at the shortstop position, which goes a long way. If Green has a less than spectacular year, he has an exceedingly good chance to drop below Dustin Ackley. Even before the Greene trade, the Padres may have taken Ackley; this is a very deep draft pitching wise and the positional players are very flimsy. If a team is drafting in terms of pure talent instead of need, they’ll pick up Ackley. The reason the Padres are considering Green is because he could be rushed up in 2010, much like Gordon Beckham.
Although the Padres have Adrian Gonzalez at first, Ackley is apparently flexible and can play 3B/OF. It’s kind of similar to the Crow/Matusz comparison; even though Crow went into the year as the best pitcher, it was close, and Matusz had a better year which propelled him forward. Furthermore, neither was a standout prospect; actually this is a very good juxtaposition. 2008 was very hitter intensive with a Matusz/Crow as interchangeable pitchers; 2009 is very pitcher intensive with Green/Ackley as interchangeable hitters. That was an oversimplified summarization, but it suffices.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Dec 5, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure why you guys are pushing this so hard
I’m just saying that IF he’s the best position prospect on the board (as KLaw mentioned), he’ll be gone by the 5th pick (it doens’t matter if he isn’t a Wieter type prospect). Teams draft by talent not needs when it comes to the top picks. Unless there are 4 uber pitching prospects in the 09 draft, the best position prospect will not last until the 5ht pick. As you say though, his stock may drop a bit due to a poor year and/or another prospect may have a bust year so it’s certainly possible he might fall. But that’s not way things stand today.
by birdman on Dec 5, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
June is a long way away
But as of right now, there is one ace type prospect in Strasburg and about 6-8 other pitchers who could go in the top 14-15. I’m not sure how to read the Huntington/Boras situation that dfa outlined above. I’m inclined to say that Huntington has shown that the Pirates will spend money, but I really have no insight into the Pittsburgh organization. I’m not going to go into this right now, but White/Strasburg look like locks for the top five and from there it’s a toss up. There is a decent chance that Green drops down to us, but all of this is terribly preliminary.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Dec 5, 2008 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
perfect storm
I’m certainly by no means an expert…but from what I’ve read Green is way ahead of a guy like Gordan Beckham. And no, he’s not a Matt Wieters type prospect, but he definitely has a good chance at being a good SS. (USS Mariner had a draft series a few weeks ago if you are interested.) All I can do is hope that Boras’ presence scares off a few teams and the M’s pick a pitcher (the Mariners have no problems dealing with Boras fwiw).
I’m a big believer in drafting talent over need but I think this could be a situation where they both work together. Of course, if Jordan has Ackley higher than Green, then you go with Ackley.
Librarians are hiding something
by dfa on Dec 5, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I havent researched this that well
but just to be a bit contrarion what is the difference between say Khalil Green and Grant Green if your a scout evaluating them? I dont know Grant at all. He does seem like a logical pick for the O’s.
by sanders833 on Dec 5, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
some stuff on grant
Here is USSMariner on him. Here is another one that I found too.
Librarians are hiding something
by dfa on Dec 5, 2008 5:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great links, thank
Sounds like a good player but there are flags. Lead the Cape League in errors and talk of moving him to third. So I guess in our case since we have needs at both SS and 3b I guess we can over look that a bit. Plus we get to see him one more year in college to fully evaluate him.
Am I off to say Steven Drew would be a good comparision?
Maybe San Diego will still be under the gun financially and pass on Green.
by sanders833 on Dec 5, 2008 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Ackley is there
Which I suspect he won’t be, the O’s should take him. I like Smoak a lot more, but Ackley hits for average, which is good for prolonging innings, and he gets on base. At this point, the O’s are going to have to choose between a few pitchers in Crow/Purke/Scheppers. Although I’d like to add some more positional depth, the pitching in our system is starting to get me overly excited.
Furthermore, when you think about it, we only lack a cornerstone at second, first and short. That seems like a lot, but on a contending team, a first baseman is an easy pick up via free agency, and a defensive shortstop will suffice. The real problem I see right now is second base; not an easy acquisition nor do we have anything on the farm, hopefully one of Miclat/Avery pan out. Although Reimold/Snyder won’t necessarily be studs like AJ/Nick/Matt, they should be able to hold down the starting spots for a while. It’s an overused cliche, but you can never have too many pitchers.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Dec 5, 2008 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The real problem I see right now is second base; not an easy acquisition nor do we have anything on the farm, hopefully one of Miclat/Avery pan out.
We definitely have some big problems at second, and I would submit that the entire infield is a major problem. Although I tried to look at it from a lineup construction viewpoint and it didn’t see that bad:
1.
2. A. Jones – CF
3. N. Markakis – RF
4.
5. M. Wieters – C
6. N. Reimold – LF
7. L. Scott – DH
8.
9.
So while we have problems in the infield, at least most of the key slots in the order are addressed. I don’t hold out a lot of hope for Snyder (BB rate is a concern), but he may be a league average 3B. My hope would be that we trade Roberts for 2 middle infield prospects and sign Teixeira. With a few breaks then we could have a pretty impressive lineup to go along with all that good young pitching in Bowie. If we can get anything positive out of Snyder, Rowell, Adams, etc. we might not be that far from relevance.
Librarians are hiding something
by dfa on Dec 5, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Snyder at third
Although I don’t see Scott as a long term answer, DH shouldn’t be a problem. That leaves three empty slots. Additionally, we haven’t even mentioned Rowell, who still has time on his side.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Dec 5, 2008 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Having seen Rowell play at Frederick last year
I can tell you he still has a chance to develop. His fielding is AWFUL, so I am hoping he can shorten his long swing and become primarily a power-hitting DH.
As far as 3rd base, we still have some shots with the Tyler’s…Henson and Kolodny. Neither one of them exactly tore it up last year, but we’ll see what happens.
I also would like to enter Zach Britton into the discussion. I think he is being slightly overlooked in our system. Impressive stuff and left handed.
by sickuvitall on Dec 6, 2008 2:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you have
Tillman/Arrieta/Matusz
————————————————————
Erbe/Britton
————————————————————
Spoone/Patton/Hernandez
I could easily move Patton and Spoone up, but I have yet to see how they bounce back from the injuries. All reports are good from the Patton camp, which bodes well for Spoone, but I need to see him throw before I believe it.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Dec 6, 2008 6:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No Brad Bergesen??
I at least think he deserves a look…
Also, its a shame we cant put Pedro Beato on that list. I really thought he had nice potential a few years ago, but thats baseball I guess.
by sickuvitall on Dec 6, 2008 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone noticed the connection between
the disappearance of power hitting shortstops and the tougher standards on steroids…hhhmmm, interesting!
by sickuvitall on Dec 5, 2008 11:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think its some of it
but if Arod hadnt moved to third he would still be the model. Nomar I suspect might have been a product of the juice. Jeter is just getting older.
Still in 2008 you had some noticeable dips in Jimmy Rollins, Tejada, K Greene, Michael Young and Troy Tulowitski for various reasons. I suspect age and the B-12 might be Tejada’s culprit. The others all had injuries of some kind although Young’s power has been trending down for sometime.
But Rollins and Troy should bounce back as both have injuries and Greene should do better in St Louis. Drew, Hardy and Peralta also did well and of course you still have Hanley Ramirez.
by sanders833 on Dec 5, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone
familiar with what the White Sox could possible offer for Brian Roberts? I just read a rumor about Kenny Williams perhaps being interested.
Always trust your cape. -Guy Clark
by BPinOK on Dec 5, 2008 4:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
well
Javy Vazquez and Clayton Richard would have been nice.
Alexei Ramirez isnt available.
That leaves Aaron Poreda, Bobby Jenks and Clayton Richard and I guess if you want to throw in Marquez who was just acquired. That is really about it. Maybe Josh Fields if you believe that Ozzie was down on him like the rumours were this summer.
I think the O’s could throw in Daniel Cabrera just to give Williams a pitcher back if the O’s want to get pitching. Both Roberts and Cabrera would only be one year investments and Williams would get back picks for Brian or could trade him again if he isnt in contention.
Clayton Richard looked really nice in the playoff series and needs a home. Poreda is the horse. Jenks is now arb eligible and I think given the escalation in closer salaries thanks to the Yanks giving Marianno 15 million a year, Kenny Williams doesnt see that as a good use of his remaining payroll.
Kenny Williams has been aggressive. Sometimes good (Floyd and Gio for Garcia), got good mileage out of Dye, stole Quentin from Arizona, stole Danks from Texas, signed Alexei Ramirez for nothing, sometimes bad (Swisher in, Swisher out), Thome and Konerko seem like boat anchors given his current strategy, Linebrook for four years??.
But he never said I am rebuilding, its always been transition. Which is why he occasionally gets caught reaching with a Thome or a Linebrook. But he is trying to win and his owner supports him. Its also why their farm system is a bit thin. Poreda and Beckham are the last two picks.
by sanders833 on Dec 5, 2008 5:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Emmanuel Burriss?
In Roch’s latest blog he mentions that the Giants might be fielding offers for Emmanuel Burriss now that they’ve signed Renteria.
The guy hit pretty well and would definitely be worth checking out, depending on the price.
Based on Roch’s comments, he might be better suited for second, but still. Put him at short for a season or two, and see if he works out. If not and the Os trade Brian Roberts, put him at second and sign a guy like Izturis as a stop gap. Either way, dude has upside.
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 7, 2008 12:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
First question
If so much upside why dont the Giants just play him? Just asking the question. They just spent 19 million to replace him.
by sanders833 on Dec 7, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just looked at their other infield options...
…and they needed any kind of upgrade offensively. Seems that way. They wanted some pop and went after the “best” offensive shortstop on the market.
It would make sense for them to move Burriss to second though. The guy hit pretty well. Can’t tell on the defense…
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 8, 2008 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
so if they traded a young player I would be suspicious although I guess maybe for Scott or Huff since the Giants need offense.
That is one I would have to leave to each teams scouts as I dont know Burriss well enough and I would want to pursue pitching first. I keep hearing Sanchez, he is spotty but has stuff. I know I would gamble Huff or Scott for him. You could argue Burriss and Sanchez for Roberts might be an option.
by sanders833 on Dec 8, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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