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Mariners 4, O's 2: That was stupid, Dave.

I said the same thing (more harshly and with more "f-words") in the comments of the game thread, but let me say it now.

Of all the times for Dave Trembley to not go to the bullpen, he chooses a 2-2 game with the bases loaded in the eighth inning with Jeremy Guthrie clearly well out of gas, having nearly hit Adrian Beltre to walk him and load the bases in the first place.

It's not really Guts' fault. Guthrie is a pitcher. Pitchers don't want to be taken out. He looked over at the dugout and said, "I've got him," in regard to Vidro. Vidro hit a two-run single. That was it, as the Orioles couldn't score on JJ Putz.

Now, listen. There's another reason it's not Guthrie's fault, and that's because he should've been pulled when Raul Ibanez came up BEFORE Beltre. Trembley wastes 37 guys an outing sometimes, but when there's a tight ballgame and a totally rested bullpen, he sticks with Guthrie? Is his excuse going to be something as asinine as "Well, we wanted to get him the win"?

Dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Ibanez can't hit lefties. Jamie Walker was just hangin' out in the bullpen. He walked Beltre. HE WAS DONE. Of course he said he wants to stay in!!! So did Pedro that one time!!!!!!!!!

GOD. CAN IT BE ALL SO SIMPLE?

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Trembley sucks at managing his BP

Always has, always will.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Apr 23, 2008 1:26 AM EDT   0 recs

damned if you do, damned if you don't

I guess it comes with the territory of being a manager.

Our pathetic offense wouldn’t have won us a game anyway. Meanwhile, Boston and New York pull off their victories…

by Y Not on Apr 23, 2008 6:10 AM EDT   0 recs

re: "uncivilized time zones"

Titov is gonna be pissed

by punkrawka on Apr 23, 2008 7:21 AM EDT   0 recs

I missed a typical Guthrie outing

He pitches well enough to get a W, but doesn’t. Usually it’s a combination of anemic offensive support (check), and a bullpen that can’t hold on. So now an unearned run leads to a tie until the crucial point when the bullpen wasn’t called. The O’s find plenty of ways to pick up L’s for the guy.

10 PM EST games are the pits. I’ll likely be missing much of the slide back to the bottom during this west coast swing.

by drj on Apr 23, 2008 9:01 AM EDT   0 recs

I'm still mad about this

I woke up mad about this.

by Stacey on Apr 23, 2008 9:13 AM EDT   0 recs

I guess I'm glad I fell asleep in the 6th.

"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again."

by 2632 on Apr 23, 2008 9:17 AM EDT   0 recs

I stand by...

That mo’erfucker and his posse are B-I-R-D-L-A-N-D!!!

However,

is decidedly NOT Birdland.

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 9:22 AM EDT   0 recs

monday morning quarterbacking..

Guthrie wanted to stay in, was glad he was let to stay in…

Trembley could just have easily called up a guy from the bullpen .. and he could have blown it as well. If that happened, everyone would be on trembs for removing guthrie… And to hell with the possible matchups and statistics for last night, they rarely work in our favor anyway.

I think if you want to be upset about something – have at our offense. Felix was vulnerable last night and we couldn’t do a damn thing off of him.

by Y Not on Apr 23, 2008 9:59 AM EDT   0 recs

I disagree

Sorry, I don’t buy it. There’s a whole lot of chance in baseball. Yeah, just because a manager makes the right move doesn’t mean it’s going to work. But the manager should still make the right move. I don’t think anyone would have been on Trembley for pulling Guts in that situation. He was deep in the game and his pitch count was getting up. SC is right. You go by the numbers and put Walker in for Ibanez.

by silverstadium on Apr 23, 2008 10:07 AM EDT to parent up   1 recs

OF COURSE HE WANTED TO STAY IN

HE’S THE PITCHER

I could go on. I will not. Like, seriously—how hard is this for some of you? It was a clearly awful non-decision. Did you SEE it happening? Because Guthrie was no doubt about it running on fumes. It was stupid, stupid, stupid, and stupid some more.

by SC on Apr 23, 2008 11:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It's the MANAGER'S job to know when to pull the pitcher

Like any decent picher (aside from Bedard) is going to beg out of a game that’s on the line. “Nah, Skip, I know there’s a guy on 1st I put there and there’s only 1 out and we’re tied, but I’m pretty sure I’m done for the night. Tell the guys I said ‘Good luck!’ “

It’s the manager’s job to know when to get the pen ready and when to pull the starter. And while I didn’t see the end of the game, it’s been prettyy well the consensus on this forum that it was obvious to the entire free world Guthrie was running on fumes.

It’s Trembley’s job to pry the ball from his hands when it’s time, not Guthrie’s job to ask out.

"I win! I think I'm better at chess than you, Dad." - My 7 year old, after he beat me for the first (and not last) time.

by duck on Apr 23, 2008 11:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Recent bullpen highlights:

Jamie Walker giving up back-breaking home runs two times in a row to Tampa.

Dennis Sarfate melting down.

George Sherril getting knocked around.

Chad Bradford giving up a rare home run.

I realize none of the above would have happened if all the champs from camdenchat.com were manager. But those events did happen… and if the manager would rather stick with the guy who had pitched a pretty good game up til that inning than throw the dice and call the bullpen – I won’t fault him for that.

Then again, I apparently lack prophetic or logical reasoning abilities…

by Y Not on Apr 23, 2008 2:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

other bullpen "highlights."

Baltimore bullpen is 8th in BASEBALL in ERA (3.55), T1st in W-L (6-2), T4th in Saves-Blown Saves (7-2), T2nd in BAA (.215).

So apparently it makes much more sense to stay with the guy who is obviously out of gas rather than “throw the dice” with a bullpen with numbers like that.

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 2:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll highlight the word "recent" because that's a bit more important..

the bullpen had a miniscule ERA for a while.. especially during that 6 game win streak which was a while ago. Something had to have happened …recently… for it to get to the 3+.

Gotta love the usage of stats on an internet forum…

Yay! #8 in BASEBALL! We’re set for the year.

by Y Not on Apr 23, 2008 2:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

recent

“Jamie Walker giving up back-breaking home runs two times in a row to Tampa”
I can only assume you’re talking about the last series against the Rays, over a week ago, in which he gave up a 3-run homerun and the next night a solo shot both of which tied the games… I don’t really consider those back-breakers, but I suppose that’s a judgement call.

“George Sherril getting knocked around.”
True as it is, and this is by no means a real excuse because I believe that no matter what the situation a ball player should be able to do his job, he did come in a non-save situation and there MAY be something to be said about some closers in non-save situations not performing “up to par.”

“Chad Bradford giving up a rare home run”
RARE

The only recent highlight that may hold water is the fact that Sarfate melted down. That was the real back-breaker in the TB game, almost two weeks ago.

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 3:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That Safarte meltdown...

... was actually another example of crappy bullpen management on Trembly’s part. They brought Safarte out in the 7th, and he struggled, had lousy control, and was obviously off, but he manage to get out of it. Off nights happen some times – Trembly should have gotten the hint that Safarte was having one.

But then Trembly brought Sararte out in the 8th anyway, in spite of the fresh options in the bullpen. Safarte loaded the bases before Trembly pulled him for, I beileve, Aquino. And then it was game over.

I think Trembly is a good manager in many respects, but his bullpen management has been pretty awful.

MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC

by spike2131 on Apr 23, 2008 4:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

monday morning quarterbacking..

well, this excuses any stupid decision the manager makes then.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Apr 23, 2008 12:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Someone flips a coin, you call tails... it lands heads.

“Moron. It was obviously going to be heads.”

by Y Not on Apr 23, 2008 2:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Is Dave Trembley your dad? Are you Dave Trembley?

by SC on Apr 23, 2008 2:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

ahahahah

sorry.. i’ve been a unimpressed with our bullpen lately. I remember how we began to melt down last year. Our bullpen was supposedly amazing.. everyone grew mustaches… and then bam.. sucked horribly. Just feelin a little bit of deja vu…

Anyway, I think I personally will drop this issue, because I got a feeling most of you want to wring my neck…

by Y Not on Apr 23, 2008 2:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

nah, dude

I’m the rare blogsman that does not mind disagreements and won’t, like, ban you or outright yell at you for it. (And if it does seem like I’m ever, like, “yelling at you,” I’m totally not.)

I was gonna drop it, too. We have a mild disagreement. I don’t love the bullpen right now either, but I think it’s worth it to show trust in them in April. If this was June and the bullpen was crapping out at the rate they have lately, I’d probably say, “Well, what the fuck was he gonna do, bring Sarfate in?”

by SC on Apr 23, 2008 3:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No,

“Anyway, I think I personally will drop this issue, because I got a feeling most of you want to wring my neck…”

I just don’t buy this, “I’ll excuse a bad decision because hindsight is perfect” line of reasoning because it excuses every bad decision…. it doesn’t say anything substantive about the logic and justification for a particular decision.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Apr 23, 2008 3:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

bah.. i'll bite again..

I suppose it was a bad analogy, but this is what I mean:

Option 1: Stick with pitcher who is tiring, but pitched a good game and DID get 2 outs prior to this walk…

vs.

Option 2: Bullpen has not been very good lately.

Yes, I realize we disagree on the value of the options … I still see last night’s scenario as 50/50 based on those two options.

I’m not a lemming, promise.

by Y Not on Apr 23, 2008 3:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

BP usage

“I suppose it was a bad analogy,:”

Yeah, sorry I didn’t understand the coin analogy. Flipping a coin is pure chance, making a BP decision can be based on evidence and fact.

“Option 2: Bullpen has not been very good lately.”

I don’t think it’s wise to base decisions on a small sample. Certain relievers have struggled lately. Fine. But unless there’s a health issue involved, I don’t think it’s fair to not trust them because they had a bad outing or two recently. In other words, I don’t agree with staying with a tired pitcher just because your BP has been in the last 1-3 outings. And not that I think 3 weeks worth of data is good, but I would rather base a decision based on 3 weeks worth of data than 1-3 (bad) recent outings. So I really don’t think the evidence suggests it was a 50/50 chance… certainly a Guthrie nearing 120 pitches versus Dennis Sarfate to face Vidro wasn’t a 50/50 chance. Dennis has 9 outings and botched two of them, which given the youth of season inflates his ERA. Maybe Guthrie facing Beltre versus Sarfate or Walker facing Ibanez is closer to 50/50 (and I even doubt that especially since Ibanez struggles against lefties and Walker’s weak point has been Pena this season). Certainly, Gut’s ability to get out batters diminishes with each passing batter. Once he reaches Vidro, I don’t buy a 50/50 scenario at all.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Apr 23, 2008 4:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

re

I get pissed when Trembley yanks a guy in the 5th or 6th with 85 pitch, pitch-count. Not in the freaking 8th after he’s already pitched what appeared to be a pretty solid game (didn’t get home from softball until the 6th). I actually thought he could have went to the pen to start the 8th but again I didn’t get to watch the entire game.

One other thing…I thought that hit and run with Markakis and Huff sucked balls in the 8th. Of course had that ball been slightly higher I guess Markakis is standing on third…whatever…my co-ed softball team dominated. Two run-rules.

I've got two nickels and a paradigm. - RWH

by BPinOK on Apr 23, 2008 10:09 AM EDT   0 recs

lol

in retrospect sure…. bring in walker.

in real-time …. either call was OK.

ppl who kill the manager the next day are a dime a dozen.

it’s just a lot of hot air …....... remember when “somebody” who now “coaches third base” for mariners pulled guts last may 23rd ….. everyone was mad about that, too.

in that case they were right, the manager was clueless. in this case it’s just sour grapes.

by thewaywardO on Apr 23, 2008 10:29 AM EDT   0 recs

If I recall...

In that situation Guts was pulled after his 91st pitch. There was only one man on and he had reached via error. And Guts was truly lights out that day. Yesterday he pitched a decent game but nothing spectacular. Last May 13th, he pitched 8 1/3 shutout innings and only gave up 3 hits.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270513102

It’s not sour grapes. We’re not running Trembley out on a rail. We just think he made a bad bullpen move and it may have cost us the game. I think it’s hard to disagree with that.

by silverstadium on Apr 23, 2008 10:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

ha

keep telling yourself that.

if roberts throws out vidro you don’t make the criticism at all.

by thewaywardO on Apr 23, 2008 10:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

maybe

But if you check out the game thread, you will note that the sentiment to pull Guts at the time was pretty much universal.

MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC

by spike2131 on Apr 23, 2008 11:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

"if roberts throws out vidro you don’t make the criticism at all."

What does that have to do with anything? It’s still a stupid decision.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Apr 23, 2008 12:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

no

Perlozzo did something I didn’t like, but he was also doing it trying to win the game. With that one I can say, “Should’ve left him in, he was at 91 pitches, blah blah blah.”

Trembley let Guthrie stay in well past his expiration date last night for no reason at all. Aw we were tryin to get him a W. In this one the correct response is, “He was 116 pitches in, just walked Adrian Beltre to load the bases, shouldn’t have faced Ibanez anyway, and is having trouble simply getting the baseball over the plate.”

There isn’t even an argument here. This whole thing is plain as day. It’s some sort of fruit.

by SC on Apr 23, 2008 11:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

even so...

Perlozzo was right in saying the damned bullpen should be able to hold a 5 run lead in the 9th. Guts was pitching well, but I still have a bit of sympathy for Perlozzo on this (just a bit).

I didn’t see the game last night, so I can’t comment on how gassed he may have been. Seems consensus on the boards is he was pretty gassed.

by drj on Apr 23, 2008 11:33 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

and while i'm at it

where’s all the criticism for markakis?

it’s his shitty at bats all night long that cost the team, esp. in 2nd inning with bases loaded.

he watched a fast ball right down the middle for strike three WTF is that?

by thewaywardO on Apr 23, 2008 10:34 AM EDT   0 recs

You are right!

Markakis sucks. We should get rid of him.

I've got two nickels and a paradigm. - RWH

by BPinOK on Apr 23, 2008 11:20 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yup

More Huff, less Markakis

MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC

by spike2131 on Apr 23, 2008 11:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

God I fucking hate Nick Markakis

Let’s jump him. I’m serious, man. Parking lot.

He did have some bad ABs last night. If he becomes the rest of the team then I’ll probably say stuff about him, too. As it is nobody else can hit.

by SC on Apr 23, 2008 11:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

ok so

i point out how nick’s at bat cost team the game and you all talk past me and sarcastically say “he sucks” and “get rid of him” and what not.

awesome! really furthering the discussion!

ps. aubrey hit a home run so don’t blame him.

by thewaywardO on Apr 23, 2008 11:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah

We’re sarcastic assholes like that….

MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC

by spike2131 on Apr 23, 2008 11:55 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I will readily admit to being more likely to give Nick Markakis some leash to have a bad game than I will Dave Trembley. One of them will still be here in five years, for one thing. One of them has a future in baseball that I care about.

I also only talked “past” you to make a joke. Then I talked about what you brought up. He had a shitty game. I said that. If he has shitty games all the time I’ll probably be annoyed with that. I said that. So what’s your point? Is it that Aubrey Huff having one good game per week is awesome? I disagree.

This whole Guthrie/Trembley situation from last night is so 100% not a good example of Dave Trembley’s managing that it boggles my mind that, what, two of you are seriously trying to skip over it. I’m not telling anyone to fire him or burn him at the stake or cast him out of baseball but would it kill you to admit he did something that actively blew the game when it was on the line? I wonder if he was getting up, but Guts said, “I’ve got him,” and then Dave sat back down and said, “Oh, it’s OK. He says he’s got him. Rick, did you see that? He says he’s got him. Don’t worry.”

by SC on Apr 23, 2008 11:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Nick's AB didn't single handedly cost the game...

There were other players who had other similar oppurtunities. Whereas, you can pretty much say that Dave’s decision not to pull Guthrie at Ibanez had a worse effect at that point in the game than Markakis’s golden sombrero. That’s not to downplay 3 strikeouts, one being in a critical situation, there’s just more to it, offensively, than Markakis sucking last night. Also, players have bad games. With Markakis, bad games are more the exception than the rule. With Trembley, bad bullpen management, unfortunately, seems to be the rule more than the exception. Besides, Markakis was just listening to Thorne, or was it Uncle Jim, (I don’t remember which d-bag said it) about how the #3 batter should definitely go down swinging over wasting time taking walks.

The point in all the sarcasm is that Huff, generally sucks, and Markakis generally is much better than Huff. Last night they seem to have swapped roles. It happens.

All in all, I think it’s pretty safe to say that this was a team loss (offensively, defensively-ahem, Ramone, management(ly?) )with the exception actually being on Guthrie himself. He’s a gamer.

And one more thing… it’s blastphemous to down-talk Nick, he’s our savior.

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 11:57 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

my bad...

thought it was 3… would silver sombrero work?

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 11:59 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I once saw Darryl Strawberry strike out 5 times

Is that a platinum sombrero?

MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC

by spike2131 on Apr 23, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

that's probably right...

and TERRIBLY impressive. I would think one of those AB’s he would have at least accidentally put the ball in play.

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 12:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He was pretty washed up by that time

And Mussina was pitching a gem.

MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC

by spike2131 on Apr 23, 2008 12:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ah

From WikiPedia:

“The term derives from “hat trick” and since four is bigger than three, the rationale was that a four-strikeout performance should be referred to by a bigger hat, such as a sombrero. The “Olympic Rings” or platinum sombrero applies to a player striking out five times in a game, while a horn (after Sam Horn of the Baltimore Orioles who accomplished the feat in an extra-inning game in 1991) or titanium sombrero is bestowed upon a player who strikes out six times in a single game.”

MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC MAGIC

by spike2131 on Apr 23, 2008 12:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

More Orioles Magic.

I love being in the record books.

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 12:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

thewaywardO, I understand you're trying to point out that any number of circumstances

could have changed the game, particularly when it’s a close game in the bottom of the 8th. But we’re talking about managerial strategy. From a strategy viewpoint, it’s clearly the best move to leave Markakis in the game even if he has a 2 or 3 crappy ABs in a particular game. Yes, if he had better ABs (or anyone for that matter), the outcome of the game might have changed. But from a strategy viewpoint, that’s irrelevant. In contrast, leaving in a gassed pitcher is a fair criticism.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Apr 23, 2008 12:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Trembley costs the team the game

when you manage for the players and not the team, you’re not doing your job. Trembley, once again, did not manage for the team last night but for the individual.

and, once again, Rick Dempsey showed his ignorance on tv saying Guthire “deserved” a chance to win the game. there are two things wrong with that statement:

1) putting the pitcher over the team, and;

2) THEY WEREN’T WINNING. the game was tied so it wasn’t even Guthrie’s game to win at that point, for fuck’s sake.

Trembley had two different opportunities to make the correct move last night, and failed in both instances.

THIS is Birdland?!?

by Dave at Bottomfeeder Baseball on Apr 23, 2008 10:58 AM EDT   0 recs

From Lookout Landing

“I don’t have any problem with opposing teams’ managers doing us favors, but I have to wonder what Dave Trembley was thinking when he stuck with Jeremy Guthrie there in the eighth. His career average is ~96 pitches per start, so today’s 116 were uncharacteristic, and while I’m not going to pretend that I can say with any confidence that he was wearing down, that inning could’ve been handled a lot differently. For one thing, with a man on second, two down, and Ibanez at the plate with Guthrie having thrown 103 pitches, I think it would’ve been prudent to go to Jamie Walker (or even George Sherrill) to get the third out. This is why teams have lefty specialists. Trembley decided instead to walk Raul to get to the right-handed Beltre, but then Guthrie walked him too, and with a switch-hitting Vidro coming up I again think it would’ve been prudent to go get someone else. Dennis Sarfate’s fastball is pretty much unhittable, and even if Trembley didn’t trust his control with the bases loaded, he still had an entire bullpen of rested arms to choose from. He stuck with Guthrie, though, and a changeup caught too much of the plate and decided the game. Prior to the at bat Guthrie looked into the Baltimore dugout and said something to the extent of “I’ve got him,” but Trembley needs to make decisions in the best interests of the team, not the pitcher, and now he’s going to get justifiably second-guessed for failing to make a move.”

by silverstadium on Apr 23, 2008 11:07 AM EDT   0 recs

I think there’s some merit to the idea that Guthrie will be better off in the long term if he learns to work out of those jams himself.

Nick Markakis: The Actual Greek God of Walks

by wickedwitch on Apr 23, 2008 1:19 PM EDT   0 recs

It wasn't a matter of him working out of a jam

Pitchers get tired. Guthrie clearly had nothing left. He pitched 8 2/3 innings, deeper into the game and more pitches thrown than ever this season. Sometimes you have nothing left. The only learning experience here hopefully belongs to Dave Trembley.

by Stacey on Apr 23, 2008 1:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

7 2/3, no?

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 1:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

not that that matters

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 1:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

not that that matters.

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 1:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

right

typo. But the principle remains the same.

by Stacey on Apr 23, 2008 2:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

absolutely

I do agree. But this wasn’t a jam in the sixth inning when he had some gas in the tank. It was the eighth inning, 116 pitches in (he very rarely goes this deep into a pitch count), and he was all over the place. It’s not me blaming Guthrie. And in a manly, let’s let him do his job sort of a way, I get what Dave did. But it was a very foolish risk that clearly did not pay off. Pedro Martinez once wanted to stay in a game, too.

by SC on Apr 23, 2008 2:49 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

that he should have been taken out. I’m just playing devil’s advocate a bit in pointing out what Trembley might have been thinking.

Nick Markakis: The Actual Greek God of Walks

by wickedwitch on Apr 23, 2008 4:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I would have left Guts in

Possibly not the right choice in winning the game but I think it pays off in the long run. Guthrie clearly said I got it as you mentioned above and even after he gave up the run he patted Dave and was happy that he left him in. I’d rather our “ace” be content and know that manager has confidence in him than just win this one game.

by Baltimo on Apr 23, 2008 2:49 PM EDT   0 recs

Every pitcher will say he’s OK. Pitchers don’t like to come out of games. I appreciate Guthrie’s manliness. He was cooked and should’ve been removed. That’s what managers do. The guy goes, “Skip, I got it, let’s do this,” and the manager says, “Nawww, we’re gonna go with Walker/Bradford/Sarfate/Aquino/Sherrill/Albers/Bierd/Johnson here. Great job, Jeremy, we’ll win this for you.”

by SC on Apr 23, 2008 2:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

WaBrafatequiShAlbBiernson

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah I agree to an extent

But it is probably reassuring to guthrie as he feels that the skipper has confidence in him. Call it bullshit but you don’t see many pitchers be openly friendly with their managers, let alone after they have given up the two go ahead runs.

by Baltimo on Apr 23, 2008 3:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I can excuse Dave

for not bringing in Walker to face Ibanez. I can even excuse him for letting Guts face Beltre. But letting him face Vidro doesn’t make sense.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Apr 23, 2008 3:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The whole thing about Vidro is that

Isn’t that when he said “I got it.” My whole point is that it may have given the pitcher the knowledge that his manager was willing to stand by him. He is young, he is the ace of our staff, and there are a lot more important games than a 2-2 game in april against the Mariners that he will have to face. The whole point of visits to the mound and a pitching coach coming out are to give the pitcher confidence in what he has. There is nothing that will probably be more reassuring than knowing that there are a few in the bullpen ready and your manager leaves you in. I am not saying I agree I am just explaining part of the reasoning.

by Baltimo on Apr 23, 2008 3:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

"there are a lot more important games than a 2-2 game in april"

In the event that we find ourselves in some kind of a race at the end of this year (whether it be for a playoff spot, or to stay out of the cellar) what makes any one game more important than another. If we find ourselves in last and 1 game behind the Rays we sure as hell can look to this game, or any of the other 90+ losses. All we would have had to do was win one or two of them. They ALL are worth .617283950% of our record.

Improving the ballclub: Not one of Peter Angelos' concerns.-SC Wed Jan 30, 2008

by dayzd toe on Apr 23, 2008 3:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Dave

There is nothing that will probably be more reassuring than knowing that there are a few in the bullpen ready and your manager leaves you in. I am not saying I agree I am just explaining part of the reasoning.

Dave is definitely a big believer in showing your players confidence and I think that’s great. It’s a good way to get players to play hard for you. But he can go too far with this at times. He stuck by Hoey too long last summer for this same reason. And now last night.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Apr 23, 2008 4:19 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs