Oh glory day, the Sox fans "forgive" Buckner
by SC on Apr 9, 2008 1:51 PM EDT
in Commentary
70 comments
I try to just ignore "Red Sox Nation" and "Yankee Universe" as best I can, but the Bill Buckner thing is sticking in my craw a little bit.
And I know I shouldn't say any of this, really, because the decent fans in "Red Sox Nation" will be offended. But it's not about them.
If you hadn't heard, Buckner returned to Fenway Park and was given a long standing ovation. Everyone is getting misty-eyed hard-ons for this "forgiveness" from Boston fans that Buckner has received.
Get out of here with that nonsense.
These are the same fans media that gave Buckner and his family hell for 20 years over a ground ball. I'm not saying that fans shouldn't be passionate, but they made him miserable. We had to put up with story after story from these poor, poor people about how Bill Buckner had caused so much awful pain to their lives and the city, and so on and so forth.
So now everyone's supposed to be thrilled that Bill Buckner has been "forgiven"?
It's long been noted by everyone except the most absolutely ridiculous that blame for the '86 collapse could be put squarely on the shoulders of Calvin Schiraldi and manager John McNamara. Buckner was a physical mess at that point; there was no reason for him to be on the field at that point of Game Six. Whether he insisted or not, McNamara was the manager. He should've known better. And let's not even forget that they grabbed a 3-0 lead in Game Seven before choking that away, too.
Bill Buckner has had to put up with this shit for decades. And, still, there are Red Sox fans media that won't grow up about this thing.
Take this, for instance:
It's been 21 years since the ball went through Bill Buckner's legs. That one moment erased everything else he did in his baseball career. There was no forgiving Bill Buckner for years and years by Red Sox fans.
...I guess I am willing to forgive Bill Buckner. But, and I bet a lot of you feel this same way, if the Sox had not won two World Series Championships in recent years, and we were still hearing chants of "1918," we wouldn't be so forgiving of Bill Buckner. And he sure as hell (no pun intended) wouldn't be throwing out any opening day pitches. ... It's a new winning century in Red Sox nation, and we are all in a forgiving mood.
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Having lived in Boston...
I don't know too many real, hardcore Red Sox fans who actually needed to "forgive" Bill Buckner or really held him responsible for losing that game anyway. As Buckner himself acknowledged, he was already given a standing ovation when he returned to the Red Sox as a player in 1990. The media are more to blame for this than Sox fans, which Buckner also acknowledged yesterday.
by oriolez on Apr 9, 2008 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Having lived in Boston...
The fans are split, and plenty still don't like him.
As for the article, I'm glad you said it. LOTS of hypocrisy here in Pink Hat Nation now that the team is winning. The true test of compassion is forgiving when you are hurt and down. It's all too easy to do so when you are on top and in control.
The fans and press should be asking for forgiveness. It's beyond hypocritical to be bestowing it.
by drj on Apr 9, 2008 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sox fans who still hold any bitterness toward Buckner, or felt that they needed to forgive him, are in the minority. Of course there are idiots who are probably still pissed at him, or were until yesterday, but there are retards in EVERY fan base. Again, the man was already given a standing ovation at Fenway 18 years ago.
Maybe I'm taking this post the wrong way, but it just seems to me like an excuse to bitch about Red Sox fans. I don't get into animosity between fanbases, it's just silly to me....and I wonder what people who talk about "Pink Hat Nation" and bandwagon Sox fans will say about all the people filling the previously empty seats at OPACY if the Orioles are ever good again
by oriolez on Apr 9, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I took it more as..
...a shot at the "media" and "fans" who are feeling the need to point out how great they are for forgiving him.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 9, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's mostly the media, and always has been. If we're taking a standing O as a sign of "forgiveness", then Buckner already got that from fans in Fenway in 1990.
by oriolez on Apr 9, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you don't get it
It's not the fans place to bestow forgiveness via a standing O or any other way. They were in the wrong fault for decades. They should be asking for forgiveness.
by drj on Apr 9, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're taking it the wrong way
It's not an excuse. It's a reason.
by SC on Apr 9, 2008 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is, how do we know that by cheering for Buckner yesterday, these people were saying "It's OK, Bill...we forgive you now!" Maybe it was more like "We're glad you came back, it was never that big of a deal to most of us, and we're glad to have the opportunity (again) to let you know it".
Of course it's being protrayed in the media as the fans forgiving him, but that's just the media putting their spin on it. The Boston media are pigs.
by oriolez on Apr 9, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I endorse the above post
Whole-heartedly.
"Yeah, I mean - Cal was much more important to me growing up than Jesus. And frankly, set just as good an example. Loyalty, discipline, hard work, humility, generosity, charity, AND 3,184 career hits. Is JESUS in the 3,000 hit club? I don't think so." - 2632
by Kristen on Apr 9, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, because this situation just screams, "We're glad you came back, it was never that big of a deal to most of us, and we're glad to have the opportunity to let you know it."
That's why Buckner has been bitter for years. Because they're all so wonderful, understanding, and respectful.
by SC on Apr 9, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buckner himself said he blamed the media, not the fans.
"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again."
by 2632 on Apr 9, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know
I don't quite expect anyone to say that they blame the fans.
Maybe Huff in the same situation.
by SC on Apr 9, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huff has himself to blame
"Baltimore? That's like being hit in the head with a crowbar once a day."
by spike2131 on Apr 9, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you're better than me at hearing people cheer and deciphering what it means. I guess it's possible. Based on my experience with baseball fans in that city, plus the fact that most of the fans in attendance didn't even know he was going to be there, and seemed pleasantly surprised to see him come out, I'm going to stick with my assumption that they were genuinely glad the dude showed up, and were happy to give him the ovation he deserves for what was a pretty great career.
For what it's worth, Buckner said in the press conference afterward that most of his bitterness was at the media, not the fans.
by oriolez on Apr 9, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure many of them were just glad to see him
You know what? You guys are right. Never let it be said that I can't be swayed, and that I can't admit that I'm perhaps wrong.
This is more about the Boston media.
by SC on Apr 9, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buckner was a secret
No one knew who it was gonna be throwing out the first pitch. A lot of people thought Dave Roberts, some thought Dom DiMaggio, some even thought Tom Brady. Buckner was a very well-kept secret.
"Yeah, I mean - Cal was much more important to me growing up than Jesus. And frankly, set just as good an example. Loyalty, discipline, hard work, humility, generosity, charity, AND 3,184 career hits. Is JESUS in the 3,000 hit club? I don't think so." - 2632
by Kristen on Apr 9, 2008 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
?????
Yup, Dave Roberts.
Love. Sorry, I love the dude.
"Yeah, I mean - Cal was much more important to me growing up than Jesus. And frankly, set just as good an example. Loyalty, discipline, hard work, humility, generosity, charity, AND 3,184 career hits. Is JESUS in the 3,000 hit club? I don't think so." - 2632
by Kristen on Apr 9, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey man
I got nothin' against Dave Bob at all. But isn't he maybe busy with his career and stuff?
I'm also not tryin' to front. I rooted my balls off for the 2004 Red Sox. I didn't know what kind of monster was going to be created after they won, but c'est la vie.
They still, on their best/worst day, can't bother me as much as the Yankees do when I actually watch a YES broadcast.
by SC on Apr 9, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah, I'm sure he's got shit to do.
But, I mean, I might've named my cat after him. And also Nick. He's a hybrid cat, you see. Sox/Os love in one fatass feline.
And you and me both with the monster, brother. Christ.
"Yeah, I mean - Cal was much more important to me growing up than Jesus. And frankly, set just as good an example. Loyalty, discipline, hard work, humility, generosity, charity, AND 3,184 career hits. Is JESUS in the 3,000 hit club? I don't think so." - 2632
by Kristen on Apr 9, 2008 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right on.
99% of the Boston media can suck a dick. Starting with the morons on WEEI. And the CHB, of course.
"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again."
by 2632 on Apr 9, 2008 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
SO MUCH RAGE AND HATE
There are a few good sportswriters around here. Sadly, most of them are leaving. But most of the Boston sports media starting hating sports sometime around 1974 and have been trying to convince the fans to hate them ever since.
"Yeah, I mean - Cal was much more important to me growing up than Jesus. And frankly, set just as good an example. Loyalty, discipline, hard work, humility, generosity, charity, AND 3,184 career hits. Is JESUS in the 3,000 hit club? I don't think so." - 2632
by Kristen on Apr 9, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't listen to WEEI
I lose brain cells just by turning my radio dial past that station.
"If you know how to cheat, start now." - Earl Weaver
by rebop on Apr 9, 2008 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you know diehard Sox fans who like the douchebag bandwagon fans that give them all a bad name? I don't know any. I know diehard Sox fans.
by SC on Apr 9, 2008 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theirein lies the rub...
If you ask them, they're ALL diehard Sox fans. Especially Tina Pinkhat Rottencrotch who's daddy bought her a "Damon Throws Like a Girl" t-shirt on his annual business trip to Boston so she could wear it when they drove up to OP@CY from Northern Virginia. Nothing awesomer than hearing a bunch of teenybopper assholes shout "Let's Go, SAWX!" in fake Boston accents on their way into the stadium when the closest any of them have ever gotten to Boston proper is heating up a can of Bush's Baked Beans while camping in Shenandoah National Park.
Why the f*ck is Boston called "Beantown" anway? I don't know a single g*ddamned Bostoner who can tell me this. I married one, for Christ's sake. Still no answer!
From the Land of Pleasant Living...
by OEutaw on Apr 9, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
an excuse to bitch about Red Sox fans
That would be the title of drj's autobiography.
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Apr 9, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for us Orioles fans...
Should we forgive Jeffrey Maier?
by alizarian on Apr 9, 2008 2:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
of course not
In seriousness, Jeffrey Maier was a little kid. The moron of an umpire that got the call wrong deserves the scorn.
by SC on Apr 9, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Giuliani for hailing him as a damn hero. Prick.
"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again."
by 2632 on Apr 9, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rich Garcia
May he burn in hell. Signing autographs the next day!!! What a cock.
by KenDixonFanClub on Apr 9, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The umps had it out for the Orioles
for Robbie Alomar spitting on the ump.
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
by jobe on Apr 9, 2008 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Par for the course.
They hailed Jason Roidambi as a conquering hero. Cheating's part of the mystique & aura bullsh*t they sell on DVD.
From the Land of Pleasant Living...
by OEutaw on Apr 9, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That damn kid
should have been PROSECUTED for TRUANCY! It was a day game, people...
"I'd just like to point out that every newspaper in the country has picked us to finish last. The local press seems to think that we'd save everyone the time and trouble if we just went out and shot ourselves." - Major League
by duck on Apr 9, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the interest of fairness
It was a Jewish holiday of some sort, which means all the kids in the NYC schools got the day off.
However, having watched Rudy G's 8 years as mayor up close (well, 25 miles to the east), I can confirm that yes indeed, his is a prick.
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Apr 9, 2008 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never think about the kid
I've always said the O's were a bunch of pansies for folding up alike a cheap tent in that series.
by drj on Apr 9, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
We probably would have lost that series anyway - that team absolutely limped into the playoffs while the MFY's were storming up the standings behind us.
From the Land of Pleasant Living...
by OEutaw on Apr 9, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Got the split in NY
and did absolutely NOTHING with those 3 home games
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Apr 9, 2008 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a Sox fan...
...I just saw the ring ceremony at the gym (missed it yesterday because of work) and I can tell you that crying on a treadmill sure makes running harder.
And no, I don't think Sox fans needed to "forgive" Buckner anything. The fans I know don't hold him accountable for anything. We know he shouldn't have been out there, balky ankle and all. The fans I know and the ones who have lasting memories of the Buckner thing don't blame him for 1986 anymore than we blame Tim Wakefield for 2003.
What was important to me was that it seemed like the Red Sox and the fans were acknowledging that Buckner was a hell of a ballplayer, a borderline Hall of Famer. And that's been overshadowed. To me it was about acknowledging what he did for the team when he was on it, not that we "forgive" him for anything.
Of course there will always be fans who "blame" Buckner. But they're new and they know nothing of baseball history.
"Yeah, I mean - Cal was much more important to me growing up than Jesus. And frankly, set just as good an example. Loyalty, discipline, hard work, humility, generosity, charity, AND 3,184 career hits. Is JESUS in the 3,000 hit club? I don't think so." - 2632
by Kristen on Apr 9, 2008 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Boston fans should be thanking Buckner for forgiving them, not the way other way around.
Agreed. I perceived it more as Buckner "forgiving" (his word) the various and sundry morons who irritated him for years -- and he specifically called out the media on that front, since they are the ultimate purveyors of this stupidity, which in turn leads a small but vocal subset of idiot fans to carry that same stupid water. I can't take the self-important mouthbreathers who feel they need to bring signs saying "WE FORGIVE YOU, BILL" to the park like he ran over their grandmas. Give me a break.
That said, it was pretty cool!
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Apr 9, 2008 2:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A tip of the Rasputin fedora for your final paragraph, SC. Just right.
Rah Rah Rasputin / Lover of the Russian queen
There was a cat that / Really loved Birds. -- Boney M
by Titov on Apr 9, 2008 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post.
Should be rec'd up so all on SBNation read it.
Those of you who are saying it was all the media's fault....don't kid yourselves. Buckner didn't move because of the media. He moved because he couldn't take his kids to the beach without people yelling at them. He moved because people were leaving flaming baseball gloves on his front lawn.
Do these sorry excuses for human beings represent ALL RS fans? Of course not. But talk to any RS fan who followed the team before this decade and mention Buckner's name, and their face will twist up like a corkscrew. Regardless of what he says now, at the time Buckner was quoted as saying his day-to-day interactions with New Englanders were why he had to move. (to Idaho, by the way).
by zknower on Apr 9, 2008 3:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
my mind changing
The media did add fuel to all of this stuff. It was the papers and the TV and the radio that kept egging people on. Of course it was going to be a rough winter for Buckner. But it didn't have to be the way it was. The man shouldn't have had to move to Idaho.
It seems Buckner blames the media for making it the disastrous circus it was. The asshole fans didn't have to be assholes, but, well, people are assholes, especially if pressed to be.
by SC on Apr 9, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the asshole are always going to be more noticeable than the non-assholes.
"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again."
by 2632 on Apr 9, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like how you're always going to notice the jerkoff in the Giambi jersey with the cowbell
over the dude who sits there and cheers respectfully for his team.
"Yeah, I mean - Cal was much more important to me growing up than Jesus. And frankly, set just as good an example. Loyalty, discipline, hard work, humility, generosity, charity, AND 3,184 career hits. Is JESUS in the 3,000 hit club? I don't think so." - 2632
by Kristen on Apr 9, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and that guy got what was coming to him, too.
"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again."
by 2632 on Apr 9, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He abso-fucking-lutely did. $300 beer shower and all.
My momma raised me right. Don't go into someone else's house and be disrespectful. You're a guest there.
"Yeah, I mean - Cal was much more important to me growing up than Jesus. And frankly, set just as good an example. Loyalty, discipline, hard work, humility, generosity, charity, AND 3,184 career hits. Is JESUS in the 3,000 hit club? I don't think so." - 2632
by Kristen on Apr 9, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Greta and I went to a Sox/Yankees game last year and sat in the bleachers
The Yankees were winning by like six runs or something and some dude in a Giambi jersey was beating on a cowbell all night and freakin' Woo girls in rhinestone, pink "Mrs. Jeter" shirts got showered with like $300 of Fenway beer.
By the end of the game, Greta, me and like four 7-year-olds were the only people left in the bleachers. They kicked out the Dunkin' Dugout!
"Yeah, I mean - Cal was much more important to me growing up than Jesus. And frankly, set just as good an example. Loyalty, discipline, hard work, humility, generosity, charity, AND 3,184 career hits. Is JESUS in the 3,000 hit club? I don't think so." - 2632
by Kristen on Apr 9, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
mmmmmm.
Woo girls + beer shower = righteous and smug baseball fan satisfaction.
by zknower on Apr 9, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It remains one of my fondest baseball memories.
"The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It has been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game: it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds of us of all that once was good and it could be again."
by 2632 on Apr 9, 2008 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
I have followed the Sox for 20 years, and my face will not nor would have ever twisted up like a corkscrew at the mention of Bill Buckner.
And apparently, according to you, Buckner himself should stop kidding himself.
"I had to ... " he began, and then he stopped while choking up. "I had to forgive, not the fans of Boston. In my heart, I had to forgive the media for what they put me and my family through. I've done that, gotten over that, and just thought of the positives, the happy things."
Is this to say he was never hassled but rude and ignorant fans? No, obviously not -- but the simple truth is that those idiots wouldn't have the first clue if Fox and ESPN and everyone else hadn't shown the play every chance they got for 20 years. The fact that he returned to the team and was well-received in 1990 should indicate that much at any rate. And I can tell you that is the tone of the discussion here -- that it was, just like the joke of a "curse," a complete media creation. Scott is absolutely right.
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Apr 9, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No back at you.
I am not saying it is one or the other. I am saying it is both.
It's nice that you've followed baseball for 20 years. That means you started two years after the game in question. So shame-on-me for saying "before this decade" when I should have been more specific and said "at the time".
And you left out a couple of words in your misquote of Buckner. He actually said, according to the official site and other outlets,
"I really had to forgive, not the fans of Boston, per se, but in my heart, I had to forgive the media for what they put me and my family through,"
"Per se." Meaning, "by itself". Meaning, he did not just need to forgive the fans, he also needed to forgive the media.
Even if you read it differently (and I don't see how you can, since that's what he actually said), it's hard to picture Buckner saying he had to forgive the fans in the pressure of a press conference right after what was clearly an emotional event for him. But again, at the time of his departure from New England, the indefensible behavior of random people he ran into in his day-to-day life was what he cited as his reason for leaving. Again, obviously not saying that all people were like this, just some.
Finally, please spare me with this "complete media creation" BS. The only way for anyone to know about that moment, aside from the fans actually at the game, was to read about it or see it on TV. That doesn't mean the people who saw or read about it afterwards then abdicated all culpability for how they chose respond to the event. I can watch some joker on an aircraft carrier proclaiming the end of a war over and over and over again and read about it in every paper the next day. That doesn't mean I have to extract my brain and accept the event on faith, that I have to make it part of my personal knowledge of the world.
Are you telling me that nobody in New England is a critical thinker? The very fact you state that you learned about the Buckner play and bore no hard feelings towards him makes my point for me. Would that all fans at the time had been as enlightened as you.
by zknower on Apr 9, 2008 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't get your point
You want to blame it all on the fans collectively, which is not unusual and good for you. He himself mentions the media as who he had to forgive, and you're choosing to override that in your infinite wisdom. Again, good for you.
And do you think critical thinkers are apt to harass baseball players? No, the only people who would do that are morons to begin with, and thus more likely to buy into the swill the media sells, like say made up curses. 95% of people can realize that that game was lost for a variety of reasons, and furthermore that harassing Bill Buckner or, like, anyone else is simply wrong behavior. That brainless 5% is not only ignorant enough to think sending death threats to another person is wise, but also to buy into years of hype by the media until they believe that Buckner is some kind of evil goat. Nobody forced Fox to show the Buckner clip EVERY time the Sox were on TV, but they did and so did everyone else and it became an icon. Does this excuse the scumbags who gave him a hard time? Obviously not, as I've said repeatedly. But it was the media who blew it out of proportion, and I have no idea why you are so unwilling to believe that.
If the media doesn't create the curse and all that other BS, Bill Buckner is left alone. If Fox doesn't decide to train their cameras on Steve Bartman after that play, people remember how badly Alex Gonzalez and Mark Prior tanked that game -- and the media sure didn't help by releasing his freakin name the next day. That's the way it is. Alex Gonzalez and Mark Prior and Bob Stanley and Calvin Schiraldi didn't have to go into hiding (though you could hardly tell). That's because their highlights weren't the touchstones that got shown on TV for years and years. Again, it doesn't forgive the behavior of the lowest common denominator, but the media gets the ball rolling.
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Apr 9, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you just make shit up when the facts run out, don't you
Fortunately, rather than relying on your "interpretation" of what I said, people can merely scroll up the page....
You want to blame it all on the fans collectively, which is not unusual and good for you.
Nope, I made it a point to say, "Again, obviously not saying that all people were like this, just some." My point is that some of the fans are culpable. Not all fans, no. And not JUST the media either. I am saying it is both some fans and the media.
He himself mentions the media as who he had to forgive, and you're choosing to override that in your infinite wisdom. Again, good for you.
Nope. He himself mentions both. Did you not even read what I wrote? That was what that whole "per se" thing was about. Did you see that you misquoted him? Have you intentionally chosen to ignore what I wrote and your own misquote? And I am not "overriding" the media as culpable in this; as the first paragraph of my post reads, I am saying it is both fans and the media.
That brainless 5% is not only ignorant enough to think sending death threats to another person is wise, but also to buy into years of hype by the media until they believe that Buckner is some kind of evil goat. ... But it was the media who blew it out of proportion, and I have no idea why you are so unwilling to believe that.
The media blows shit out of proportion every day. That's how they get ratings. That doesn't make them responsible for people's behavior. Again, you're saying that 95% of RS fans were not sucked into what the media "blew out of proportion", so by your own admission, there are many, many people whom the media did not cause to become assholes, which means that the media are solely responsible. The other 5% of RS fans bought the narrative. That means that some fans are responsible too. I have no idea why you are unwilling to believe that. I am saying it is both fans and the media.
If Fox doesn't decide to train their cameras on Steve Bartman after that play, people remember how badly Alex Gonzalez and Mark Prior tanked that game....etc.
Yes, yes, the media chooses their storylines, their heroes and their goats. They have to print something about the game and that means, someone, somewhere, has to express an opinion. And then someone else expresses the same opinion. And then a story snowballs. Mmmm hmm. I get it. But a story snowballing neither creates, nor is an excuse for, death threats and harassment. That's on the 5% of RS fans who are brainless asswipes who, as you put it, "buy into the hype of the media". So look! We are in agreement! Except that somehow, you keep trying to place all the blame on the media, when in fact it takes real human beings to make life so unbearable a guy has to move. So MY POINT IS, I am saying it is both some fans and the media.
Is my point clear now?
by zknower on Apr 9, 2008 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as my mother-in-law would say
You are wasting gas.
by drj on Apr 9, 2008 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
forgot to mention
The reason that is a bit humorous is she really means "wasting breath". She thinks first in her native language, and the the literal translation sometimes results in awkward phrases. In this instance the accidental English could be an apt metaphor.
by drj on Apr 9, 2008 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That means that some fans are responsible too.
Good heavens, did I not say that ten times?
Is this to say he was never hassled but rude and ignorant fans? No, obviously not
Does this excuse the scumbags who gave him a hard time? Obviously not
Again, it doesn't forgive the behavior of the lowest common denominator, but the media gets the ball rolling.
Are you going to argue the media is not at the root of this? And it seems you are deluded into thinking I or anyone else is excusing the harassment of Buckner?
And you can keep harping on "per se," which, you know, I'd bet good money Buckner doesn't know the literal translation of, but he CLEARLY emphasizes forgiveness of the media over the fans.
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Apr 9, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
John McNamara
wasn't he Secretary of Defense before his managing days?
Drinkin' the Kool-Aid!!!
by BPinOK on Apr 9, 2008 3:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You mean Robert
and I have no relation to either (good thing too)
by Steve. on Apr 9, 2008 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
rehashing
Here's a good post over at Shysterball on how Buckner came back and played his last games for the Red Sox before retiring. He got standing ovations then too.
Commenters over there are saying that this more recent standing ovation stuff is just about Red Sox fans/media patting themselves on the back for forgiving Buck...even though they already did it publicly years ago.
I don't know if that fact changes anything for me. I just get sick of talking about the Sox and Yanks when we're in first place.
It's Birdland!
by silverstadium on Apr 9, 2008 3:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good point
Its the Red Sox. Why the fuck should we care?
"Baltimore? That's like being hit in the head with a crowbar once a day."
by spike2131 on Apr 9, 2008 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only Red Sox fan I like
Is the one who calls those sports call in shows and identifies himself as "Dick Hertz, from Holden."
by Lothar on Apr 9, 2008 5:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm just glad it wasn't Millar throwing out that pitch this time
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Apr 9, 2008 5:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Spot on, SC
I don't forgive Buckner...I never had anything against him. I am good he got a standing ovation, though. I thought that was cool.
A mind without purpose will walk in dark places.
by NHZ on Apr 9, 2008 11:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Welcome!
I go up with Buckner! I am his hardcore, recently just got an autographed Photograph by him , then he came back to Boston. I think it was never his fault. Very simple to blame so much frustration on one person, let alone one play. Why not blame the players before Buckner, Stanley (who threw a wild pitch), or the '86 Red Sox for blowing the last game of the series. It's pitiful how two championships now validates Buckners presence in Boston now, nevermind the abuse he endured within the 1986-2004 time frame.
by vityhg on Apr 10, 2008 4:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The papers (and fans) are still patting themselves on the back today with stories of forgiveness and how they didn't boo him in '87 or '90 The conveniently forget the fact that the fans (and it did begin with fans) began turning vicious in 1993 at a 4th of July celebration. I guess the '86 lost had to fester a while until it exploded in all it's ugliness.
by drj on Apr 10, 2008 8:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Keep trying
Way to characterize the 1993 incident as, like, a mass harassment of Buckner.
What happened? The wrath of Boston fans happened. On a day of celebration for our country, July 4, 1993, Buckner wasn't celebrating. Instead, the then-43-year-old Buckner had a confrontation with an 18-year-old fan, who knew Buckner only as the man who ruined the Red Sox fortunes in '86.
And if you can find anyone anywhere excusing the behavior of individual idiots, please be my guest.
From the same article:
On April 9 [1990], the baseball season started at Fenway Park: "Opening Day I got a great ovation. Fans in Boston are really good. They really are. They liked me and they were always good to me, and I think they just got caught up in the media. Overall, they were good. That was probably why tears came to my eyes, and it was pretty emotional."
You can continue to trot out the anecdotal evidence that supposedly proves the fans collectively harassed Buckner all the way to Idaho (where he had owned land for 20 years), but it's simply not true. I have no doubt you firmly wish it were, however.
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Apr 10, 2008 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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