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"Mainstream" Media's Take On Lack of O's Fans at the Yard

A story over at Yahoo! talks about the lack of O's fans at this weekend's Sox series. Me being me, I had to throw in my two cents, which takes up the space of several comments. I'll recite my opinion (as contained in the comments to the original story) about the article's thesis here:

"O's fan here. I go to 10 or so games per year, and the decline in attendance by orioles fans has been consistent over the last few losing seasons. Let's be clear that it is utterly demoralizing to sit in your home stadium and be outnumbered by the swarm of locusts that might otherwise be described as Yankees fans or the red sea of Sox fans. More importantly, however, it's defeating to watch your team struggle to keep its neck above .500.

As a rule, fair weather or steadfast, fans don't stick behind a losing team. No one will describe themselves as a fair weather fan, but ask the capacity crowd of 1993 or 1994 why they aren't in attendance now, and the answer will be "The owner doesn't care about his team" or "How can we stay behind a team that hasn't won in ten years?" So, up to this point, i agree with the comment from 'mariner in exile' above [see the Yahoo post's comments].

No one seems to be considering the addition of the Nationals to Washington as an attendance crusher. The O's enjoyed 30 years of being the only team in the mid-atlantic, but now must compete with the Nats.

All of this attendance business behind me, as a true fan of the game (and not just winning teams), I see the O's as a tenacious bunch who struggle in the hardest (or, at least the wealthiest) division in baseball and consistently challenge the high payroll of the Evil Empire. O's/Yanks games tend to be great opportunities for situational baseball.

Winning seasons or not, I cannot get enough of players like Jeremy Guthrie, who, with run support, could put up numbers better than many of the pitchers in his division. I even like Ramon Hernandez, who just needs to learn how to pick off would-be base stealers. And Dave Trembley has proven himself as a skipper with the heart this team needs. I'll stand behind this team whether they win or not as long as they play their hearts out."

. . . I anticipate some lambasting from people here on Camden Chat, but wanted to share the story and my take on it.

FanPosts are user-created content and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Camden Chat or SB Nation. They might, though.

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I dunno

I’d agree with the Nats thing if they could draw anyone, either.

Probably a little late in life for Ramon to learn how to throw, too. But his batting line has been some hard-luck stuff. Dude has hit the ball hard most of the year.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by Scott Christ on Jun 3, 2008 11:27 AM EDT reply actions  

Good Point

... on the Nats not drawing a crowd, either. But consider that even if the Nats crowd averages 15K a night (I have no idea what their numbers are for the Nats, but we’re pulling just over 18K average), and 1/3 of that (5,000) came to O’s games regularly, we’d have almost a 25% increase in our attendance! At least then we’d be at almost half capacity.

Just trying to add some perspective. Regardless, I think you’re absolutely right that both teams have dismal attendance and the net effect of the Washington team on the O’s is probably not that considerate … until one team starts winning and the bandwagon runs in that direction.

by blawk359 on Jun 3, 2008 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think . . .

They don’t draw because the Orioles suck, the owner doesn’t show any interest in making them better, and Baltimore is primarily a football town with a baseball team they’ve been interested in on occasions when they’re good.

Personally, I hate “fan favorite” type of players: semi-decent-to-good players that loser franchises build their teams around who cearly aren’t in the same category as the stars on good teams. Not so much because of the players themselves, who can sometimes be quite good, but I hate the mentality a lot of losing teams have that assumes those kind of players will be good enough as if there is some shortcut to being an elite team. Nick Markakis, Brian Roberts, and Jeremy Guthrie (and even Daniel Cabrera) are terrific players, but they aren’t enough if the Orioles want to win. At some point the O’s are going to need to get some Manny Ramirez-type of players to win the division and it bugs the hell out of me when you hear fans and columnists contest otherwise.

by yurizanow on Jun 3, 2008 11:56 AM EDT reply actions  

yeah

I mean, come on. You need a couple mercenaries. How often do you walk into Cal Ripken and Eddie Murray, you know?

The old Oriole Way with the farm system is not coming back. The same as the Yankees aren’t pulling Mickey Mantle II out of Bumfuck, Oklahoma any time soon.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by Scott Christ on Jun 3, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

who are these people that argue this?
Nick Markakis, Brian Roberts, and Jeremy Guthrie (and even Daniel Cabrera) are terrific players, but they aren’t enough if the Orioles want to win. At some point the O’s are going to need to get some Manny Ramirez-type of players to win the division and it bugs the hell out of me when you hear fans and columnists contest otherwise.

I think people are very aware of this.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Jun 3, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not in my experience

You don’t hear it so much on this site because most of us have a similar outlook, but I’ve read that from Oriole fans on other blogs and bulletin boards. I’ve heard Jeff Zrebiec say this on his podcasts and Peter Schmuck seems to think things are so great in the Orioleland that Barry Bonds has no place.

I’m a pretty big Green Bay Packers fan and I used to hear that kind of crap in the pre-Favre era. “We can win with Don Majkowski and Sterling Sharpe”. I’m convinced that fans and reporters for lousy teams lose perspective and tend to overvalue players that stand slightly above the rest.

by yurizanow on Jun 3, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

probably true to some degree

I remember when I said the Red Sox probably have (I don’t know how many) players as good as Nick Markakis, and a couple folks were like, “Say what!”

Right now Markakis has a 125 OPS+ (adj.). That’s good. He’s a good player. The Red Sox have Manny (142), Youkilis (139), Ortiz (123 and climbing), Lowell (120), Drew (119), Varitek (116), and Ellsbury (115).

Actually Luke Scott is at 126, best on the team, though that comes in 40 or so less ABs.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by Scott Christ on Jun 3, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

come on, everybody knows you need 1 or 2 superstars

Or a ALOT of very good players. Just because people say we don’t need Barry Bonds doesn’t mean people believe we don’t need superstars. If somebody wants to give us Pujols, Ryan Howard, Justin Upton, or Jay Bruce, I very much doubt Zrebiec and fans would react with indifference.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Jun 3, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you might be missing what I mean

I think there are a lot of Orioles fans who think that Nick Markakis (who I feel bad about constantly picking on because he doesn’t deserve it) IS a superstar or that Jeremy Guthrie (ditto) IS a superstar. That’s what I mean when I said that fans of crappy teams overvalue their team’s better players. It’s like they think the rest of the players are so lousy that they pull those that they think are great down or that the years of losing is just bad luck and Brian Roberts (ditto once more) IS more than good enough to build a team around.

Fans of losing teams frequently don’t realize that things like that simply aren’t the case. I’m not saying you do or other people on this site do (unless they say otherwise), but go to a bar and talk Orioles or go another blogsite. It’ll make your hair stand on end.

by yurizanow on Jun 3, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think there are a lot of Orioles fans who think that Nick Markakis (who I feel bad about constantly picking on because he doesn’t deserve it) IS a superstar or that Jeremy Guthrie (ditto) IS a superstar.

Oh, well yeah, that’s wrong. If Zrebiac or whoever believe that Markakis is at the same level of Ortiz or Pujols, they’re fooling themselves.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Jun 3, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

old-timey prospector O's fans

Gotta watch out fer kye-oats! In my day the entire club was scouted by Snuffy Thompson!

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by Scott Christ on Jun 3, 2008 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

football town

Robert Irsay proved you can kill just about any fan spirit. Frank Deford said “A man who could screw up professional football in Baltimore would foul the water at Lourdes or flatten the beer in Munich.”

by drj on Jun 3, 2008 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

W-I-N

I don’t know why boards are so full of BS musing about why people don’t come to the stadium. Sustained losing turns away fans. That doesn’t include just the “casual” fan. I know plenty of good baseball fans who have just given up out of frustration. That doesn’t make them fair weather fans. There comes a point where you just decide that the franchise just isn’t worth your hard earned dollar. You may decide to give up on the season tickets, buy a lesser package deal, or just go to a few single games.

It happens everywhere. The Celtics were dead for about two decades, now fans are crawling out from under every rock to watch them. When the Red Sox truly sucked in mid century, the fandom was as moribund as the team. Same story everywhere else.

by drj on Jun 3, 2008 12:36 PM EDT reply actions  

secrets of sports!

The Cubs not only sucked for 100 f’n years, but outside of a few years around ‘68 and since ‘84, no one wanted to go see them play!!

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by Scott Christ on Jun 3, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Understood

I get that the fans have just gotten fed up about losing, but is there no truth to the old saw, “It’s not whether you win or lose, it’s how you play the game?” Granted, this is MLB, not tee ball, but if you’re a fan of the sport itself, you’ve gotta give the O’s credit at some level (O’s 10, Yankees 9 after 11, anyone?) for how they play.

Of course you can retort that Mora and Bynum keep killing us with slow and wild throws to Millar at first (Friday night, top of the 13th), but I’m still confident that the O’s play good ball. When you play 1/4 of your season against powerhouses with deep pockets like NY and Boston, though, you’re fighting a hard battle.

Maybe I’m too forgiving of my team, but I can’t beat up on the players for having lackluster ownership. These guys are motivated to succeed on a personal level (if only, however unfortunate for fans, to get traded to a team that has better ownership) and hopefully that motivation meets up to try to win games, too. They’ve made a career of baseball, like we’ve all chosen our own careers. Assuming we all like our jobs and want to do well both financially and in terms of how good our output is, try to see the relation between liking your job but hating your boss. It sucks the motivation right out from underneath you, and that’s probably a large part of what we’re seeing with the O’s.

Even with all that, I still like the team. I’ll continue to like the team. But you got me on the decision that the franchise isn’t worth my dollars. I’ve been going to less games and watching on TV instead. But I think that might have a little to do with loving Gary Thorne, Jim Palmer, and yes, even Amber Theoharis.

by blawk359 on Jun 3, 2008 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh Amber

She’s a doll. A peach. I love her insanity, because she probably thinks I’m insane, too.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by Scott Christ on Jun 3, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

HA

Yeah, I’m sure you are in her thoughts!

by drj on Jun 4, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh I know I am. I’m outside her window.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by Scott Christ on Jun 4, 2008 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, just win!

There will always be a bunch of Yankees and Red Sox fans in the stands (especially since tour groups buy up a crapload of tickets every year), but just winning will even it out so that’s not so embarrassing. It’ll also hopefully give the O’s fans a little more backbone. As a whole, they tend to just lay down and take it (even me on occasion).

I like comment #8, though. “If I wanted to be surrounded by douche bags, I’d go to the pharmacy.”

"We’re not concerned about what other teams think. I know teams come in here thinking we’re playing the Orioles. And then 9 innings later, they got the loss, they know what we’re about." ~Adam Jones

by Stacey on Jun 3, 2008 1:08 PM EDT reply actions  

two quick comments

1) As people have said, attendance is down because the team sucks. If you want to indict O’s fans for not supporting a losing team, you have to make this same accusation to every sports base except maybe the Cubs. I went to a game at Fenway Park in 1997 and the place was close to empty. I haven’t check the data so maybe I just went a poorly attended game but even a rabid sports base like PHN will attend games less during down years.

2) If you want to point a finger at a fan base, how about the Marlins? I understand Loria is hated, but the team won a WS recently and they’re playing very well this year, but I believe attendance is down (correct me if I’m wrong). If the O’s would have enjoyed the same level of success as the Marlins, Camden Yards would have been packed, particularly the year after a WS win.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Jun 3, 2008 2:00 PM EDT reply actions  

just a note...

PHN is not a RABID sports base.

"Chickens are hard to catch." Jennifer Scott (Luuuuuuuke's Mom)

by dayzd toe on Jun 3, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pink Hat Nation

is the very definition of BANDWAGON fans.

"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby

by duck on Jun 3, 2008 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

PHN=$$$

To borrow (that is to say, steal) a line from a post I saw on a Sox blog:

“Pink hats=$$$=Manny=ring. “

Just sayin’.

by blawk359 on Jun 3, 2008 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

so...

we do agree, right?

"Chickens are hard to catch." Jennifer Scott (Luuuuuuuke's Mom)

by dayzd toe on Jun 3, 2008 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re:

If you want to indict O’s fans for not supporting a losing team, you have to make this same accusation to every sports base except maybe the Cubs.

No no no no no. Well I mean yes. I don’t care to indict Orioles fans for not filling up a ballpark when the team sucks, because as you say nobody fills anything up for a sucky team. This is only grating when certain self-righteous Orioles fans bitch and moan about out-of-town fans (gasp) buying tickets. And this has nothing to do with the mook so and so saw in such and such a section being a jackass; that is about as tiresome an angle as it gets.

Orioles fans, or any fans for that matter, simply cannot be both a) defensive about the fact that they don’t fill up the stadium because the Orioles suck and b) angry that other fans actually do buy the available tickets, many of whom are bandwagon jumpers (and since when was that a crime? and whatever will we call the people who fill up Camden Yards if and when the Orioles are ever good again?) but also many of whom have gone out of their way to support their team. You can’t have it both ways. Either you fill up the park even when the team is bad, or you deal with the fact that, on certain nights, other people do. So probably the best rationale is to get the hell over it until the Orioles can win some damn games.

by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jun 3, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

yyyup

Gotta agree. I mean I’m sick of hearing Sox and Yanks fans cheer those nights, too, but what REALLY bothers me is that they have a lot to cheer about and we do not.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by Scott Christ on Jun 3, 2008 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

yyup X2

That puts it about as succinctly as possible.

by blawk359 on Jun 3, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

And 1

Let’s add that people come from out of town because the Yard is absolutely the best stadium in baseball. Who cares about a high wall in left field when you’ve got that warehouse in right and the Bromo Seltzer Tower in center?

... wait, no more seltzer tower. How about that beautiful hotel in center?

by blawk359 on Jun 3, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

PHN

“This is only grating when certain self-righteous Orioles fans bitch and moan about out-of-town fans (gasp) buying tickets.”

I don’t have a problem with RS or Yankee fans buy tickets at Camden Yards. It annoys the hell out of me when RS or Yanks cheer for their team in our stadium but hey, it’s a free country. They should be able to do whatever hell they want. I think that’s what people around here are bitching about… maybe there have been a bunch of complaints here about PHN buying tickets, but I get the impression that’s not really the beef. It’s the behavior of PHN at Camden Yards that annoy us NOT the act of purchasing a ticket. Look, I’m not saying it’s wrong for PHN to cheer for their team at our stadium, like I said, they have that right, just like I have the right to find that crap annoying.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Jun 3, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah...

it’s not the buying tickets, or even the “regular” cheering that bothers me. It’s the complete disrespect that those fans show Baltimore the city, the fans, and Camden Yards (oh wait, apparently it’s Fenway South).

"Chickens are hard to catch." Jennifer Scott (Luuuuuuuke's Mom)

by dayzd toe on Jun 3, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I thought the "Fenway South" signs were a bit too far.

I’m not saying Angelos should do something to ban that type of stuff, but I find that stuff disrespectful. I go to O’s games outside of Camden Yards. I cheer for my team, it annoys other home fans, which I’m sympathic towards but tough shit. At the same time, I have boundaries in policing my own behavior at visiting stadiums and I personally wouldn’t go that far.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Jun 3, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Buy the tickets, cheer for your team, enjoy yourselves in our beautiful ballpark, but remember that you’re a guest. That’s all I ask, really. Be a good guest.

Once at a Yankees game some dude got up in my friend’s face all, “Get out of here, go back to New York! This place is for O’s fans!” and my friend said very calmly, “But I beat up an Orioles fan and stole his ticket to get in here!” The guy, taken aback, said, “WHAT?” and she said, “Oh right, I bought it at the box office. If an Orioles fan HAD bought it, I wouldn’t have had the opportunity.”

"We’re not concerned about what other teams think. I know teams come in here thinking we’re playing the Orioles. And then 9 innings later, they got the loss, they know what we’re about." ~Adam Jones

by Stacey on Jun 3, 2008 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Was the guy wearing gang colors?

He’s going to make some woman verrrrrry happy someday.

From the Land of Pleasant Living...

by OEutaw on Jun 3, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually....

part of me is just fine with confiscating Fenway South signs. And beating their owners into unconsciousness with them.

But that part of me just had a really bad day, so I think we’re safe for the long-term.

"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby

by duck on Jun 3, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm fine with that

I’m actually part of the problem because I tend to avoid YankeeSox games because of the opposing teams fans. They make my experience unpleasant. Sure, I go to some YankeeSox games, but if its a choice between going to a Red Sox game, or waiting a week to see, say, the Twins, I’ll hold out to see the Twins and have a more pleasant baseball experience.

If I’m only going to go to 8 or 10 games a year, I want to make sure the other team’s fans don’t piss me off. Plus, if I’m bringing my two year old, I don’t want to expose him to that atmosphere….

"Whether your name is Gehrig or Ripken, DiMaggio or Robinson, or that of some youngster who picks up his bat or puts on his glove, you are challenged by the game of baseball to do your very best day in and day out. That's all I've ever tried to do."

by spike2131 on Jun 3, 2008 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

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