The '08 Orioles: Briefly looking back, and moving forward
The 2008 Orioles have thus far surpassed almost all expectations for their season, coming out of the first "half" with a competitive 45-48 record, though that is still good for just fifth place in the AL East. To lose 100 games, as some of us thought they would this year, they would have to go 17-52 the rest of the way. Unlikely. Not outright impossible, but highly unlikely.
Take out Ian Kinsler, and Brian Roberts is the best second baseman in the American League. (Even if you factor in Kinsler's brick glove, he wins, so don't start.)
Without Roberts and his .296/.375/.489 line at the top of this lineup, what do you really have? You've got two and a half guys that can hit (Markakis, Huff, and the super streaky Luke Scott) and a bunch of schmucks, only one of whom (Jones) has any real promise of getting any better than he currently is.
Who hits leadoff without Roberts? Trembley has shown a slight fear of pressing too hard on Jones. Is it Mora? Is it the shortstop du jour? The only other truly viable option in the lineup is Markakis (.401 OBP), and then who do you hit AFTER him? Mora (a recent hot spell has bolstered his OBP to a robust .302)?
Without Brian Roberts, this team is a lot worse, because the fact is that Freddie Bynum or Luis Hernandez or Brandon Fahey would be playing second base, with Cintron at short. And with Cintron hurt, that means two of those three is playing out there every day. Roberts is so massively ahead of any potential replacement that it makes Markakis-to-say, Tike Redman, look like a present for all of us.
First Half Cy Young: Jeremy Guthrie
129 innings of a 3.49 ERA and 1.19 WHIP? Sure, I'll take this scrapheap pickup that paid off in spades last season and has only continued his excellent contributions this year. 3.49/1.19 is the sort of line that has made an ace of Chien-Ming Wang, except in fact a little bit better. Guthrie is a pitcher whose repertoire and style seem to me like they forecast a long period of effective big league starting, and he is good enough to carry a staff, especially if his team would ever hit for him. For those of you oldsters with your prospector outfits, setting to head out for a hard day's mine (watch out fer chiggers!) who think win-loss records reflect a pitcher's ability, please explain his 5-7 mark. Sit down, Joe Morgan. He hasn't been "outpitched" in 3-2 games.
The real truth is that you could probably get a fairly pretty penny for the 29-year old Guthrie, whose arm hasn't been beaten on and has now shown in two straight seasons that the hype he had coming out of Stanford really did have some reasoning.
Personally, I wouldn't trade Guthrie. I wouldn't trade Roberts, either. Both of them would require packages better than you're going to get out of anyone at the trade deadline. If something massive comes up this winter, think about it. But not until then.
Should They Stay or Should They Go Now?
Who to trade? Who to keep?
I say keep Roberts, keep Guthrie (whose name hasn't come up but you have to realize he's one of our most valuable pieces), and even keep Daniel Cabrera. If nothing else, Cabrera has value in throwing 200 innings a year, which is not the easiest thing to replace. Keep obvious guys like Jones and Markakis.
Everyone else? Find a suitor. Find a dance partner. See what they've got, hear them out, decide if it's enough.
The Clash's last album (well, I wouldn't REALLY call them The Clash) was titled Cut the Crap. That's the general idea here. Millar's clubhouse prankery and general feel-good attitude is great and all, but he's become a detriment at the plate. When your first baseman is hitting .239/.331/.391, it's a problem that can't be made up for with funny novelty hats or impassioned pleas for another team to win the ALCS. Millar's a great dude, an underrated glove at first base, and I'll remember his time in Baltimore fondly when all is said and done. But I'd like all to be done soon.
Aubrey Huff is on the other side of the teeter-totter. He's hitting a healthy .284/.349/.526 with 18 homers, and had an argument for inclusion into the All-Star Game. (He was one of several more deserving Orioles than the guy who made it in.)
But Huff seems just so fluke-y this year. Look at his WARP3 totals for previous seasons (2005-2007): 3.8, 4.0, 3.7. This year? He's at 5.9, the third-best number of his career and his best since 2004 (6.4, which was preceded by 7.7). Huff's having a dynamite season.
If the Orioles cannot find a contender that wouldn't like to have a power-hitting veteran lefty bat who is comfortable DHing and can also fill either corner infield spot (and in a pinch, either corner outfield spot), then they're doing something wrong. The way he's hit, the rest of his contract looks like a bargain. I'd rather someone else take the chance that it actually will be one. The cute stories of him going out and just not thinking are great and all, but not a lot of guys have long-lasting bouncebacks starting at his age.
All-Star George Sherrill should be traded. Yeah, he's affordable, and for a little while longer. But saves are a silly stat that have overrated his real value. By VORP totals, he's the team's fourth-best reliever. He could be replaced by Jim Johnson at a moment's notice, probably, and believe it or not, Chris Ray's health doesn't much matter to me when it comes to trading Sherrill. Someone on this team will find at least a momentary home in the closer's role (believe me, it happens), and if no one really does...boo hoo? Y'all plan on going to the playoffs? A closer will happen. We'll find one. Sherrill was a non-closer that turned into a closer. Joe Borowski has racked up saves before, too. Todd Jones has done it. It's not the great art some make it out to be (though it's not the easy job some have before made it out to be, either).
The affordable part assumes Sherrill keeps on being good. Relievers are a volatile bunch, man. A guy like Sherrill has no guarantees. You can probably sell high right now -- maximum value. That might mean one troubled prospect who has stalled, or it might mean a couple fringe guys. Fine! Brian Roberts was a fringe prospect. Sometimes those guys pan out. And if they don't, then I just don't think George Sherrill is too good of a bet to factor into the next contending Orioles club to not take the risk.
I don't dislike Sherrill. In fact, I think the guy's just super. He's a fan favorite, like a lot of these guys are. But it's not like we're talking about B.J. Ryan or anything. And despite some of the Sun's more, erm, knowledgable readers/commenters, this is not the best Orioles closer since Randy Myers. Sherrill has probably pitched a little over his head in this role, and it's not been anything too special to begin with. Find a GM that cares about the number under SV on the media guide and go to town.
Or at least try. That's really all I ask.
I ain't speakin' for nobody else, just me. You're free to think George Sherrill is a hot potato, Kevin Millar's leadership is TOO INVALUABLE to trade away, and that Aubrey Huff surely will be hitting 30 homers a year for the rest of his contract. I just do not.
But whatever -- let's hope the second "half" can be as downright fun as the first one was.
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This is the reason I don't think Roberts shoud be traded
He is so good that I immediately don’t believe that we’re gonna get enough value for him. It’s old baseball wisdom, that you can’t replace a GOOD LEADOFF HITTER. A good leadoff hitter who hits doubles (and triples), is smart on the basepaths (well, most of the time), and can steal a base or two… B-Rob is so good, I’d want an entire farm for him.
Plus, he looks like he’s going to age gracefully. If he doesn’t get traded this summer or in the winter, I think he’s an O for life, and that should make any fan of the team happy.
Any team that would really want or need him this summer don’t really excite me as far as their prospects go.
I’m with you again for wanting to trade Sherrill. Georgie is nice to have around, and that said, I don’t really want to see him go, unless someone overstates his value. But someone will. Always happens with closers. If we’re going to trade him though, ith as to be SOON. The All-Star game made him hot again, and I think it won’t last….
The stock market will never recover, our armies will never again be #1, and our children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives - HST
by the fix is in on Jul 17, 2008 8:25 AM EDT 0 recs
O for life?
Isn’t his deal up at the end of the year? Whether it’s this year or next, given the insane rate contenders pay for lead off guys, is there any real chance he’ll be here beyond the current contract? I’ve been taking his O’s days being numbered as a given.
You won't see a worse play than the one you just saw from the Yankee captain... 3DG 5/27/08
by 33 on
Jul 17, 2008 10:54 AM EDT
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End of next year
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
by duck on
Jul 17, 2008 2:19 PM EDT
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Trade Roberts!
If we could get a package from the Cubbies that would include the guys previously mentioned (Ronnie Cedeno, Sean Marshall) and get them to also put Mike Fontenot in the deal, we would have a decent lefty starter/reliever, as well as our 2B/SS combination for years to come. The critical need of a SS and a replacement for Roberts would be well worth the loss of Roberts, not to mention the addition of another good pitcher. Roberts is one of our best players, but just like Tejada, he’s not leading us to the playoffs, as we need to continue to load up on players. The only other choice for this team to contend in the future (yeah, right!) is to overpay on the free agent market for guys who, league-wide, just do not want to come to Baltimore.
Rexx
by Rexx on Jul 17, 2008 9:25 AM EDT 0 recs
We’re not getting anything from the Cubs for him. Their situation is pretty OK and they just traded Gallagher, so I don’t know how hard they want to dent their system when the team they have right now is absolutely good enough to win a World Series.
Roberts is also a better player than Tejada. And younger. And will probably age more gracefully, as speed players-and-walks players tend to.
There’s a fair question of whether or not Cedeno is actually any better than Alex Cintron, too.
"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum
by SC on
Jul 17, 2008 3:09 PM EDT
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The problem with Roberts is that he's underrated
So it’s tough to get fair value for him in the trade market.
At last year’s deadline, player A was a year and a half away from free agency and had the following VORP resume:
2004 42.3
2005 62.0
2006 37.4
2007 26.0 (before trade)
3.5YR Avg: 47.91
Roberts is now a year and a half away from free agency, and has the following VORP:
2005 62.0
2006 31.3
2007 48.6
2008 32.1 (so far)
3.5YR Avg: 49.71
Player A was Mark Teixeira, and he was traded for a HUGE package of Salty, Andrus, Feliz, and two other prospects.
Salty is one of the best catching prospects in the game (although he’s struggled this year), Andrus is a 19-yo shortstop holding his own at AA (top 25 prospect easily), and Feliz throws triple digits, is 4th in the minors in K’s, and just took the youngest pitcher in AA crown from Chris Tillman (top 50 prospect easily).
I think you’d be lucky to get one of those guys for Roberts, even though he’s probably as valuable as Tex is.
When the market isn’t valuing your assets properly, don’t sell.
by dkdc on Jul 17, 2008 10:59 AM EDT 0 recs
I agree with the sentiment that Roberts has been undervalued. It hurts him that he plays for a crappy team.
VORP is purely an offensive measure and is adjusted for position. I’m not entirely clear how to directly compare different positions by VORP.
For example, here’s the 2007 league averages (not replacement player averages), with each player’s 2007 stats.
AVG OBP SLG
1B .267 .348 .443 Tex (.306/.400/.563) for an OPS+ of 150
2B .284 .339 .416 Roberts(.290/.377/.432) for an OPS+ of 112
I’ll take Teixeira’s offensive pop over a guy who excels when compared against a replacement level 2B.
by drj on
Jul 17, 2008 12:00 PM EDT
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Grr. that didn't come out.
(BA/OBP/SLG)
1B Avg (.267/.348/.443) – Teixeira(.306/.400/.563) for an OPS+ of 150
2B Avg (.284/.339/.416) – Roberts(.290/.377/.432) for an OPS+ of 112
by drj on
Jul 17, 2008 12:07 PM EDT
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Roberts still looks better when you compare to averages
Last year the average ML 1B hit 276/357/463. Teixeira was traded with a 297/397/524 line. That’s a 124 OPS+ compared to position.
This year, the average ML 2B hit 275/337/409. Roberts has a 296/375/489 line, which is a 131 OPS+ compared to position.
That’s without going into park factors or baserunning, which would shift it even further in Roberts’ favor.
Over the last 4 years, OPS+ compared to position:
Teix
2005 129
2006 108
2007 134
2008 114
Roberts
2005 141
2006 104
2007 114
2008 131
As stated below, it really boils down to the long ball. Teix is a far more glamorous acquisition than Roberts.
by dkdc on
Jul 17, 2008 4:37 PM EDT
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You can’t normalize to position and then make the argument Roberts offensive output is just as good as Teixeira’s.
last several years OPS+ 2005 through 2008 (to date)
Teixeira 144, 126, 150, 141
Roberts: 139, 96, 112, 130
I’m not sure where you pulled the OPS+ compared to position. But that would also have the same problem as VORP. We all agree Roberts is much better than the average 2B in generating offense. But the two are not equal players in terms of generating offense with one just happening to hit more home runs.
by drj on
Jul 17, 2008 5:30 PM EDT
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Sounds like we're talking past each other
I didn’t say Roberts is as valuable with the bat as Teixeira. Obviously Teixeira’s a better hitter than Roberts (ignoring this year).
However, if we assume there is a team with an average 2B and an average 1B that is looking to improve their team, they should be essentially indifferent between adding Roberts and adding Teixeira because they provide about the same production above an average player at their respective position.
Adding either Roberts or Teixeira would improve their chances of making the playoffs by about the same amount.
But we know teams aren’t indifferent between those two, so that’s the reality we have to work with. Keep the undervalued asset, unless someone is willing to pony up.
by dkdc on
Jul 17, 2008 5:53 PM EDT
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Ok, I see what you are saying
I still think a guy like Tex is legitimately valued more.
Assume the entire team is average (or replacement level) and you could choose Tex at 1B or Roberts at 2B. Would one team be more likely to score runs? I think Tex’s team would score more. Just more total bases.
by drj on
Jul 18, 2008 1:32 PM EDT
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Nope
I’ll use runs created as a simple measure of offensive production.
Since 2005:
The average 2B has 84 runs created per 650 PAs.
Brian Roberts has 104 runs created per 650 PAs, so he’s created 20 runs above average.
The average 1B has 99 runs created per 650 PAs.
Mark Teixeira has 117 runs created per 650 PAs, so he’s created 18 runs above average.
by dkdc on
Jul 18, 2008 3:30 PM EDT
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(I’d like to know where you are pulling the stats, particularly for the position average. I’m always looking for sites).
I’ll say Roberts is having a better 2008. I don’t have the avg RC by position. But I’ll use Win shares (above average) for the past few years (2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008). I know this pulls defensive measures in (which I believe would give Roberts the edge).
Roberts: 4, 17, 3, 12, 7
Tex: 13, 20, 8, 16, 4
Just a note. Roberts does have more total bases than Tex (179 to 168).
by drj on
Jul 18, 2008 5:43 PM EDT
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"Chicks dig the long ball"
...I believe is what that boils down to.
by punkrawka on
Jul 17, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
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If the Diamondbacks are willing to trade for Tony Clark
and the MFY are preparing to sign Richie Sexson, you would have to imagine someone would be willing to sign Aubrey Huff. Even when he sucks, Aubrey is better than Clark and Sexson.
by math_geek on Jul 17, 2008 2:32 PM EDT 0 recs
If Brian Roberts doesn't get traded
It’s because there is no market. You could looks at maybe the Cards or even the Brewers but neither one of them is going to give what Roberts is worth and it is quite a shame as he is going to be of minimal use in Baltimore.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Jul 17, 2008 5:45 PM EDT 0 recs
George Sherrill
I read a chat of Rob Neyer where he was unimpressed by George Sherril and said that the O’s should trade him to anybody who offers prospects.
by yurizanow on Jul 17, 2008 7:45 PM EDT 0 recs
I'm guessing that because
Rob Neyer reads more stat columns than the one labeled SV. Thankfully, not all GMs do when it comes to closers.
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
by duck on
Jul 17, 2008 10:51 PM EDT
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After Thursday's game and three outs on crappy base running
I hope MacPhail can find some players who aren’t so f’ing stupid on the basepaths. These guys are ridiculous. They look like idiots f’ing around out there.
Dear Andy. Brains are also important.
by drj on Jul 17, 2008 11:09 PM EDT 0 recs













