Wieters Check (It's True!)
by OEutaw on Jul 18, 2008 3:36 PM EDT
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He's that freaking good.
.345AVG .448OBP .576SLG in 229ABs at single-A Frederick.
.368AVG .449OBP .588SLG in 68ABs at double-A Bowie.
He's actually improved on what everyone agrees was a flat-out domination of single-A ball even as the level of his competition increased. So do you leave him at Bowie as long as he stayed in Frederick? Or do you actually try to challenge him prior to bringing him up to the big show?
I don't doubt he could match/beat Ramon's production this year already.
The question in my mind, honestly, is how quickly will he rival Joe Mauer for the best C in the game? The similarities are all there - he's got Mauer's potential, with more power.
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Honestly
The best thing for the organization would be for Ramon to have a monster second half to boost his trade value, allowing us to deal him for some prospects this December. The only way that happens is if Ramon is getting ABs, which means Wieters stays in the minors this year. I’m all for giving him a shot at AAA pitching in August though.
I’m not worried at all about Wieters potentially being rushed, the word is that his mental makeup is through the roof (sort of like Markakis) and that he wouldnt be fazed by struggles at a higher level, just like Nick wasn’t the first few months of his rookie year.
I think our best bet is to let Wieters play out the season in the minors, and let him take the reins next spring.
The only thing that worries me about my plan is that trading Ramon puts pressure on Wieters right away, but I’m banking on the fact that his supposed mental makeup and maturity trump that.
What a beast
Ramon will be gone in the offseason. It’ll be situation where the O’s will simply take whatever they can for him. I would prefer that the O’s start Q at catcher to start the year and delay Wieters service time. But I imagine if Wieters dominates in ST, he’ll make the opening day roster, sort of like Markakis did a few years ago.
Wolf, wolf, wolf.
It's funny that you said that
because I’ve been thinking that he’s gonna be the next Joe Mauer for a while. It’s scary how close they are in comparison. I definitely think we should get rid of Razor soon. Hopefully he has a good second half and we can get something worth while for him.
Wieters is a freakin man beast!
Geaux Eaux's
opening day 2009
they should bring him up in September to get some meaningful at bats in an otherwise usual meaning-less month of baseball and anoint him the starter for opening day.
Hernendez has zero trade value. none. we have to get over this.
by Dave at Bottomfeeder Baseball on Jul 18, 2008 4:57 PM EDT reply actions
0% chance
That’d he’d be better than Hernandez this year. If you brought him up right now he would not only have to adjust to pitching that is out of this world compared to AA, but he would be weighed down by the catching duties. Although I think it is too late now, I wish they would have just moved him to another position, I understand that some guys can both hit and catch a game, but I would much rather have this guy be a plus infielder and tear it up offensively with another catcher who cannot hit, but can call a game and block the plate.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
So, in your world...
Mike Piazza would have been a 1b from the get go?
"We're excited about the future, but we also want to be excited about now." - Brian Roberts, 07/17/08
Help me here....
Although I think it is too late now, I wish they would have just moved him to another position, I understand that some guys can both hit and catch a game, but I would much rather have this guy be a plus infielder and tear it up offensively with another catcher who cannot hit, but can call a game and block the plate.
Uh, huh? When did Joe Mauer’s defense go to crap? Wieters is the real deal from all reports – I’d say he’s a C until proven otherwise.
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
I was so close
I actually typed it and then erased, but I was going to thank everyone for the Joe Mauer and Mike Piazza refrences in advance because I have know nothing about either of those players. Wieters is the real deal against 20 year olds. This is his first time ever calling games and in the minors it isn’t all that difficult with all the trash that you have to weed through to come upon a decent hitters. Not to mention the fact that both Frederick and Bowie have great pitchers in the ranks and A and AA are probably more pitcher friendly than the international league.
I am not saying that Wieters won’t be able to play at an all star level offensively as a catcher, but there is little doubt that most guys do better at the plate if they aren’t crouching down for hours on end five days a week. This is just a baseball philosolophy disagreement on my part, but I am a believer in having a quick, light hitting shortstop and a catcher who can jack one once every 20 at bats if they can play they are plus defenders. It is not acceptable to have weak hitting corner outfielders or offensively challenged 1B and/or 3B, but I have no problem with having the throw away outs be catcher and shortstop. Case and point is Ryan Adams who is in Delmarva right now, he is doing great at the plate but has committed something like 45 errors, driving in a ton of runs and slugging the ball means shit if you are giving up runs on every slow dribbler and line drive. I understand Wieters would probably be an average catcher worst case scenario, but when you have someone with so much pop in the bat why waste it. 8 and 9 are throw aways most of the time anyways, unless you have a stacked lineup, 70s Reds or 30s Yankees, so why not get superb defenders in the two most important positions and make sure the rest of your lineup makes up for it.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
you are so wrong I can't even decide how wrong you are
an above-average hitting catcher is the single most difficult thing to find in the entirety of the major leagues.
Wieters is a catcher, and unless he can’t stay healthy leave him there. please.
nonono
i just have a visceral reaction to how wrong you are.
Under that thinking....
Cal should have been moved to LF somewhere around 1983.
I completely disagree with your suggestion about moving Wieters. WHEN the physical tool dictates he moves, probably around age 32 or so, then move him. Until then, why? We have 2/3 of a MLB OF now for the next 10 years, and a satisfactory LF is a hell of a lot easier to find than a satisfactory C. He’s never played 3B or 1B, so he would be a defensive liability there.
I just don’t see enough upside to justify any move from C that isn’t tied to an injury.
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
i agree so much
though my one quibble is that we have a ML OF for four more years. Beyond that there’s no guarantee.
Still. There’s no way you give up a potential best bat at the hardest position for a good bat at an easier position.
In my dreams....
Nick signs a lifetime extenstion and is elected Mayor for Life. Let me dream….
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
Mayor Markakis
Not sure what value a hard throwin right fielder will provide solve the education problems in the city, but it prolly won’t hurt. I think it’s fun to imagine Nicking throwing oranges at every kid who can’t read at grade level by 9th grade…
I think he lives in Monkton now fwiw.
Librarians are hiding something
One positive sign for Baltimore City
The new city schools chief is housing the latest attempt at alternative ed for expelled students in the Board of Ed office. Same complex as the supervisors, et. al. Said those staff needed to remind themselves they work for ALL of the students in the city.
That’s one way to do it…
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
Board of Ed
The education problems are so vast…between the parents, No Child Left Behind, the bureacracy within the schools and kids being kids, what a mess! I recently heard of some school districts having their unions go favor accountability over seniority, but that is delicate if the kids are around awful influences most of the day…
Librarians are hiding something
Oh, No
This is like the racism screed the other day after the HR Derby….more baseball, less social policy!
I'm seriously liking...
Adam Jones hitting 2nd. Just sayin’.
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
Except not
Cal Ripken hit over .300 something like three times in his entire career, and he got 1500+ RBI’s because he played twenty years with a ton of good guys around him. He is my favorite player of all time, but don’t act like he is showing half of what Wieters is. Plus by 1983 Cal had been called up and played his whole minor league career as a shortstop, and had played an entire year at that position…I said it is too late for Wieters to move to 1B after less than half a year at A and AA….He had an above average minor league career and was dismal in his call up, he was always noted for his durability and defensive prowess. I also noted that the catcher is the one whose offensive production dips and should be moved, not the shortstop. I merely noted that it is acceptable to have a .240 line shortstop if they are quick and plus defenders, but it is much easier for a SS to hold his own at the plate than it is a catcher.
He is too big to be a LF if you ask me, but moving him to first is not that hard. Because first base looks like such an easy position to play, commentators and analysts love to act like it really is complicated and has a ton of intracicies but it is not. If you can play catcher, you can play first. It sounds really simple, but it is just that; 34 year olds would not be moving to first after they fail to be able to crouch down if it was a tough position to field. I would rather this guy be a .300/.390/.500 guy year in and year out than be a slightly above average catcher who has a line of .280/.360/.500. He has the capability offensively to hit the first line, and I just don’t get why you detract from it. I guess it is natural to want to have a guy like Wieters planted behind the plate because it ensures security for a long time at that position, but 99% of the time a really good hitting catcher is not a really good defensive catcher. Add that to the fact that putting him behind the plate detracts a full season or two from his career. I understand that he is not going to be moved, but a guy his size cannot even stand up in time to throw the ball he is so big and I cannot even imagine how that is going to impact him.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
My original point was
by your logic, Cal should have been moved to protect his bat from a position more likely to induce a physical toll and move him to one with less physical risk to keep his bat.
You seem to assume Wieters will not be able to be a great hitting catcher. Either his defense will suffer or his offense will.
I say let that be proven, not assumed. WHEN his physical tools diminish, then move him. Not until.
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
Maybe it came off that way
But to clarify, I meant that I don’t mind, and even favor, a light hitting SS. It is one thing when you have Cal Ripken, certainly an above average hitter, who plays a tough but manageable positon, and another when you have a guy who is a messiah offensively that plays the far and away most taxing position on the field. I would not move many shortstops just because they hit well, but I would move most catcher, that is the diffrence between the two.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
I can see
Wieters following a timeline of B.J. Surhoff or Craig Biggio – start as a C in the majors, and move when it makes sense, and it may be after 3-4 years. Although I certainly don’t see him migrating to 2B as Biggio did….
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
Jay Bruce
I’m just using him as an example of a guy who dominated in his first 50 – 100 ABs after going up a level. I expect Weiters to still be great at AA, but we’ll see where he levels out.
If Ramon is moved, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Weiters up for some late season duty, if only to get a taste.
I wonder if the O’s will play contract games and try to delay the service time clock, as Liriano is claiming with the Twins. I wouldn’t surprise me, although the Twins are ultra-conservative that way as they ASSUME they will lose their players.
If the O's were contenders next year
then I would say bring up Wieters immediately. For example, the Rays should have brought up Longoria immediately but didn’t for contract reasons. But the O’s can’t compete next year. What’s the point of burning up a service year? Is the extra month in AAA really going to hurt him?
Wolf, wolf, wolf.
I would say building ill will
but then again, the Rays kinda avoided that with Longorio by throwing 2 Brinks trucks at him, huh?
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
His agent is Boras
Building good or bad will is irrelevant. Once his six years are up, he’ll go to the highest bidder.
Wolf, wolf, wolf.
That too
No 1st team discount, no nothing. We’ve got him for 6, no more, so we’d better use it wisely.
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
Sweet Swing
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FcEWpLjxNuU
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
Wrong Response
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
It's very good.
I haven’t seen him much, but he’s always looked solid behind the plate. And he led hi-A in caught stealing %.
Nick Markakis: The Actual Greek God of Walks
by wickedwitch on Jul 18, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Wieters
This kid is awesome w/bigtime power .How long will it take for
these wanna be G/M,s to want to talk trade?Every good player
the Orioles have some Bozo wants to trade him before he gets
his feety wet.?
Like who?
What good young player have we traded away recently that ended up being a huge mistake? John Maine? He wasn’t that highly touted when we traded him and was pretty much a throw-in in that trade. Jack Cust? Not even sure how good he is and everyone let him go.
Orioles problem has seemed to me to have been less us trading away quality prospects; but not having any quality prospects.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jul 19, 2008 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
matty
Wieters is THE BEST prospect in baseball. Jay Bruce was tearing it up in the minors, but he had some red flags, he wasn’t walking at all, and had a terrible BB/K ratio.
It is way way way way better to have catcher who can hit .280/.370/.480 with solid defense, than it is to have a 1B who hits….300/.400/.520 with solid defense
Bruce
Jay Bruce was still the top prospect in baseball the day he was called up. Judging a guy after 100 at bats is idiotic. Dont get me wrong, Wieters is a beast, but so is Bruce. Personally I would like to keep him in AA ball through the end of the season. Give him time to work with the pitchers and develop that part of the game with less pressure. Plus, since he is catching more games this year then he ever has before as an amateur, I would be hesitant to bring him up just for a couple dozen meaningless at bats.
And the idea of moving him? Foolish. While having him get 600 at bats as a 1b rather then 540 or so at a C might be appealing, a decent defensive catcher with +Power is incredibly rare.
Look at Soto this year. OPS of .883 with 16 HR is spectacular for a catcher, let alone a rookie. He has pretty much clinched the ROY and started the ASG. There are maybe 4 other starting catchers with numbers like that, McCann, Doumit, Martin and Ianietta (Coors Field). Mauer might make it half a dozen but he hasnt shown the power.
Meanwhile at 1B there are at least dozen guys with similar numbers, Youk, Pujols, Tex, Morneau, Berkman, Lee, Cabrera, Gonzales and Giambi (And dont forget Fielder and Howard who started slow, and the young guys like Jackson, Votto, Kotchman and Loney, who could wind up in that range).
Put it this way, as a corner infielder with 400 HR and a lifetime .305 (not looking this up) BA does Mike Piazza even get into the Hall of Fame discussion?
David Price
An argument can be made that the Rays’ David Price is better…
Librarians are hiding something
Price may not be a prospect much longer.....
there’s been more than one writer (fwiw) saying he will be in the rotation by late August.
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
Price...
...is like the Rays’ big deadline acquisition. Price should be very good, but I thought Dewon Brazleton would be awesome too. We need the Rays to run into some bad luck, because David Price seems to be really frickin good!
Librarians are hiding something
Take that quo!
Why do we want the Rays to run into some bad luck? I’m rooting for them to win the AL East and disrupt the status quo.
It will be more exciting
To have to contend against three of the best teams every year if we can contend in 2010. We have a good shot at taking the division over the Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
Why do I want the Rays to run into some bad luck?
Because I’d like to think the Orioles could compete in a few years. In a lot of ways I’m jealous, but the Rays have been picking in the top 5 for what seems like forever. I wish them well as I like young baseball teams, but I don’t want them to be too good!
Librarians are hiding something
I want the Rays, the Blow Jays, the PHN, and the MFY
too all run into a collective brick wall at the same time. But that’s just me.
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
The only time I've seen him play
Three strike outs, and a meaningless single. I don’t follow the minors, but I have a feeling that there is a reason we’re talking a lot about the “hit streak” and “reached on base every game” simply because he’s having a hard time scoring and a hard time driving in runs. Two of the K’s, he left a few people on base.
I don’t know the official scoring, but on my scorecard, I also had him down for two errors. A throwing one to second base, which allowed the runner to advance to third (I think officially, that was on the second baseman though), and then an immediate passed ball to let the guy score.
The dude is BIG though. I never saw him standing near anyone who could even compare, he just looked huge next to the people he was with…
I’m just saying to take everything with a grain of salt. Wieters, I think is gonna be great one day, but he doesn’t need to go to Baltimore this summer, and I’d be reluctant to put him in next year, even though he’ll get his first taste next year hopefully.
The stock market will never recover, our armies will never again be #1, and our children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives - HST
what I'd do...
I would be reluctant to call him up anytime soon. It’s worth noting that this is by far the longest season that Wieters has ever played, so I think Matt will be wearing down very soon. Plus we should consider the service time issue, like the Reds did with Jay Bruce. If I were asked, I would say that Wieters should not be promoted this year, rather he should go to the Arizona Fall League and then start off 2009 in Norfolk where he actually gets to catch former major leaguers, so he can work on his game calling ability in the middle of nowhere. Then, after he does that for a few months and the arbitration deadline passes (May 25?), call him up for good. Quiroz is adequate until that time imo.
Librarians are hiding something
Does he need AFL?
At this point, like you said, it’s by far his longest season ever. Does he need it prolonged? What value would there be in him going to the AFL if he continues to hit the way he has?
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
the AFL
I just like the AFL…I figure with a month between the end of Bowie’s season and the start of the AFL, Wieters would be able to get some rest. IIRC, they play like thirty odd games, so hopefully Matt could DH half the games and catch the other half. The real reason I want him to go is to continue to work on his game calling and being around other top prospects. Essentially more at bats…
Librarians are hiding something
I think that is going to happen
Maybe not the Arizona fall league, but some kind of fall/winter league. I think that the front office committed to methodically easing this guy through the minors the second they drafted him, and that is what they are going to do. The same thought process of calling him up now becuase he is so good is the same as wanting the O’s to be buyers because they were near .500 at the break. There is no rush to bring him up, and taking a guy through six or seven leagues in a year is a bit much. I think MacPhail and co. will keep him at Bowie the rest of the year and then put him in a fall or winter league not being in Hawaii(hopefully).
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
Why do I say fall/winter
I mean winter.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
He's waiting for the Nats pitching draftee below him
to sign to make sure he gets at least as much, according to BP.
"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby
I hope the Nats sign that kid soon...
and send him to Hagerstown, so I can see some more decent players around here.
"We're excited about the future, but we also want to be excited about now." - Brian Roberts, 07/17/08
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