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Rotation for 2009

Roch is posing this question, but I think it will get more quality responses here at Camden Chat.  I will put my 2 cents worth on it and see how everyone else puts their rotation out there.

My Rotation:

  • Jeremy Guthrie - He is our ace and he is pitching like it.  Guts may be the only lock for the rotation for 2009 if you base it on performance alone.  Prediction: 15-6, 3.50 ERA, 150K
  • Daniel Cabrera - There is speculation he could be traded, but the O's front office likes his potential (there's that word again) to get rid of him.  While I don't believe he is a #2 by any means, he does eat innings and is potentially dominant.  He is our old veteran.  Prediction: 10-10, 4.35 ERA, 120K
  • Garrett Olson - AAA is too easy for him and the majors are a challenge.  He pitched a gem in his last outting, but he needs to work on his consistency (of course, they all do).  As a lefty, he really needs to step up and take over this role because we need it.  Prediction: 13-8, 3.95 ERA, 145K
  • Hayden Penn - I would normally put him as the number 5 starter, but I don't like lefties pitching back to back.  He will be up with the major league ball club as soon as they figure out that Sarfate can't make the transition to starter.  While he has struggled some in AAA, it is time for him to come to the majors and start learning in the big leagues.  Liz may be a candidate, but he needs more time in the minors and the Orioles need to realize he may be better suited for the bullpen.  Prediction: 8-12, 4.75 ERA, 145K
  • Chris Waters - Knee-jerk reaction to a gem!  No, not really.  Hear me out before you write your bash.  I checked some of his box scores to see what kind of pitch count he had at the 6th inning when he was being taken out of his AAA games, and it generally was no more than 90 pitches.  He has the ability to eat innings, and he is left handed.  Brian Burres is not a starter, and, barring Chris throwing softballs in there for the hitters to mash in his next few starts, I see him getting this opportunity.  I have been following him since the beginning of the year in AA ball and have been waiting to see what he can do.  Take a look at his last month or so in AAA to see what he does before dismissing him on his overalls.  Prediction: 9-11, 4.50 ERA, 130K

Here are the other candidates and why I feel they are not going to be in the rotation or what role they may be filling in 2009:

  • Rhadames Liz - It is very apparent that he needs more time at AAA before he comes up to the bigs again.  A firm handle on 3 pitches with consistency is required, and he might want to do this sooner rather than later or he will be jumped over by the other men in our system.  I think he has the stuff to a quality reliever, but it would take, again, consistency.
  • Brian Burres - He's a swingman, and he always will be.  I give it up to him because every year he pitches better than anyone expects, at least for an extended period of time.  He does not belong in the rotation for any more than a spot start, ever.
  • Matt Albers & Troy Patton - They have the exact same reasoning though I believe they will end up in different places.  Torn labrum recovery.  Patton will be in AAA working on his stuff while Albers will probably still be recovering.  If he returns to the bigs, it would be as a reliever.  There are too many guys with too much talent getting close to the bigs to be messing with Albers in the rotation again.  Let him fight for a spot in 2010 if his arm is fully healthy and he has some more games underneath of him.
  • Jim Johnson - A lot of people are clammoring to put JJ in the rotation.  My question is why?  He has accelled in his role as setup man, and he is a candidate for the closer's role next season.  Even if Chris Ray returns strong and healthy next year, JJ should challenge him for the closer's spot.  George Sherrill should be put in the setup role next year.  Chris Ray, JJ, Flat Brim at the back end of the bullpen.  I like that.  A lot.
  • Brad Bergeson - I followed the kid in A ball.  I am following him in AA ball.  I will follow him next year in AAA ball.  He has to prove this year is the real deal and is young enough that he can prove himself at Norfolk next year. 
  • Chris Tillman - Not next year, but I would look for him in 2010.  At 20 years old, he should see AAA before he sees the majors.  The last thing we need is another Hayden Penn type of situtation.
  • Jason Berken - I would put him in the same class as Brad Bergeson.  His success seems to be a learning curve and he is 25 in November.  He, along with Brad and others, will be a constant reminder to Daniel Cabrera that we don't necessarily need his services much longer if he doesn't figure things out.
  • David Hernandez - I look at him like I do Rhadames Liz.  A future reliever.  I could be wrong as this guy can rack up K's.  I am salivating to see how the AAA rotation is going to perform.  I realize it is mainly just the AA ball rotation with another A in it, but it is refreshing to know this many guys are doing well.
  • Jake Arrietta/Brian Matusz/Tim Bascom/Any Other 2007/2008 Draft Pick as a Pitcher - No.  Plain and simply just no.  If you think they are ready or will be ready please see your neurologist as soon as possible as you have probably suffered a heavy blow to the head.

Going over this list makes me that much happier to be an Orioles fan.  The young guys are progressing, and we are starting to put together a nice young group of pitchers.  I figure this is a good place to start to debating 2009.  Let me know what you think (and I am prepared to get trounced for including Waters).

FanPosts are user-created content and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Camden Chat or SB Nation. They might, though.

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Guts, Danny & Olson are just about locks

This FO will never give up on Daniel Cabrera – never.

As for the other two slots? A parade of never-lasting interchangable parts, just like this year. Liz seems suited to the ‘pen, as does Sarfate. I’d like to see Penn get a shot. As for the 5th slot? Won’t be Albers – why depend on that should to start and go deep? Wouldn’t a smarter move be to use him situationally from the ‘pen until it’s clear all is well? Maybe Burres, maybe Johnson, maybe a cheap signing in the off-season. There’s no clear answer. And I’d want to see about 4 more decent-to-good starts from Waters before I’m buying he belongs in the rotation for good.

"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby

by duck on Aug 6, 2008 1:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I could definately see a Kyle Loshe type FA signing.

To “protect the young kids”

I wouldn’t mind seeing the 5th spot go to an innings eater and no more Safarte like experiments.

by Reddrummer9187 on Aug 6, 2008 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those are some optimistic projections for Penn, Olson, and Waters. Hasn’t Waters’ overall numbers been pretty bad this year? I wouldn’t put too much stock into a month’s worth of starts.

A lot of people are clammoring to put JJ in the rotation. My question is why?

For the same reason why the Yanks put Joba into the rotation, a starter is more valuable than a reliever. He may not be able to throw as hard in the rotation but as long as he keeps the sinking action on his fastball, he’ll be fine.

There’s some good pitching depth in the O’s system but there’s not a lot of pitchers with a lot upside. Maybe Liz and Arrieta, but that’s it. Matusz and Tillman, the O’s best pitching prospects, project more as middle of the rotation guys.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Aug 6, 2008 2:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Jim Johnson Argument

I agree that we don’t have the ace prospects which makes the 4th and 5th spots (and even 3rd if Olson can’t hammer it down) fluid next year. His overall numbers this year combined in the minors is 4.67 ERA and a 1.37 whip. It’s nothing to get excited about, but I feel he could replicate that in the majors given his decent K:BB ratios. Besides, 5th starters, on average, have a 5.50+ ERA in the majors, so he would be better than average if he could put up those types of numbers.

Jim Johnson as a starter in the minors:
2007 (AAA): 6-12, 4.07 ERA, 1.43 WHIP, 109/48 K/BB, 148IP
2006 (AA): (Record Missing), 4.44 ERA, 1.42 WHIP, 124/57 K/BB, 156IP

If you put him in the rotation, you should expect nothing more than a #4 or #5 starter. This is why I am saying he is more valuable in the pen. He has established himself as a late innings guy and a dependable one. Why put him in the circus that is going to be our rotation with all the people vying for those last 2 or 3 spots? I would rather have him anchoring a bullpen. Besides, the last time I checked he was not in the same class as Joba Chamberlin and Joba is hurt.

by PWubbs on Aug 6, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For the same reason why the Yanks put Joba into the rotation, a starter is more valuable than a reliever.

Man, any other time I would agree with that… but this year is a perfect example of how valuable bullpen is. The difference between us being horrible like last year and now only 4 games below .500 is a pretty decent bullpen.

by Y Not on Aug 6, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think I

fall on the side that you should get them in the rotation…of course Joba just went on the DL so what do I know.

Always trust your cape. -Guy Clark

by BPinOK on Aug 6, 2008 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The difference between us being horrible like last year and now only 4 games below .500 is a pretty decent bullpen

August isn’t over yet! Plus, I suspect there other factors in play like defense efficiency and the suprising Aubrey Huff.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Aug 6, 2008 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tillman

It’s my understanding that Tillman has the potential to be a 1/2. I’m pretty sure Keith Law said as much in one of his chats, at least. He’s super-young and doing super-well in AA.

by pipkin on Aug 6, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's my recollection...

i think matusz also has a top of the rotation (though not ace) ceiling.

foghat goes with everything--birdman, 5/16/08

by j.q. higgins on Aug 6, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think...

law has tillman at 3, with possible 2, but high projectibility, which is also a desirable quality. he could be in the majors in a couple years or less.

also, waters is nothing. I expect him to tank his next four starts and to head down to norfolk.

by pipkin on Aug 6, 2008 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jim Callis

has said Matusz is the best of our prospects and he thinks that he has the ceiling of an ace. The comp i’ve seen tossed around for him is Tom Glavine.

by Reddrummer9187 on Aug 6, 2008 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i assume this is pitching prospects only?

Because Wieters is probably our best prospect. Hell, he might be the best positional prospect in the minors.

by pipkin on Aug 7, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yea

I just forgot to say pitching prospects, and Wieters just may be the best prospect in baseball.

by Reddrummer9187 on Aug 7, 2008 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you put him in the rotation, you should expect nothing more than a #4 or #5 starter. This is why I am saying he is more valuable in the pen. He has established himself as a late innings guy and a dependable one. Why put him in the circus that is going to be our rotation with all the people vying for those last 2 or 3 spots?

JJ has been a completely different pitcher since adding a sinking fastball to his arsenal this year. Before this year, I would have same thing: JJ’s a 4th or 5th starter at best. Joba was certainly a better prospect than JJ, by a mile, but the underlying concept still holds, a starter is more valuable than a reliever.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Aug 6, 2008 2:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yes

A starter is far more valuable than a reliever. But is an ace reliever more valuable than a #5 starter? That is more debatable. I think I would take 70 incredible innings over 200 so-so ones. Quality over quantity.

Also some pitchers aren’t good enough to be starting pitchers. Your velocity is lower and you have to face hitters 2 and 3 times so they figure you out. I don’t think JJ could work in the rotation, but i’ve been wrong before.

by Reddrummer9187 on Aug 6, 2008 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think I would take 70 incredible innings over 200 so-so ones.

Sure, I agree but, as I said before, I don’t see why JJ wouldn’t work in the rotation. His velocity may go down a bit but as long as his fastball sinks, he’ll be fine.

Wolf, wolf, wolf.

by birdman on Aug 6, 2008 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Liz as a reliever

I still have faith in Liz as a starter; middle of the rotation, sure, but still a starter. He has the arm strength, can throw a crap ton of pitches, and has a lot of upside. So, a lot of what I’ve read suggests that the main difference between relievers and starters is that ability to go deep into ball games. If Liz can do that he’s a starter. More then likely, you put him in the bullpen and he does what he’s done all along: walk people and have poor mechanics. The whole argument behind putting him in the bullpen hinges on his ability to throw the ball hard, but how does that help when he can’t get the ball across the plate. So, the arguing whether he’ll be a starter or a reliever is pointless as he needs to learn to pitch before any decisions can be made. (Also, let me note that starters can get away with more walks then relievers. If Liz is going to walk three guys per appearance, I’d rather have him starting.)

As far as next seasons rotation:
Guthrie
Olson
Cabrera
Hernandez
FA

The idea that Penn is going to make it into a major league rotation is laughable. He’s a #5 at best. If you’re having problems with the way Burres has pitched this season, just give that spot to Penn and see what happens. He’s not good. He can’t go deep into games, doesn’t have the stamina you need in a starter, and it’s become obvious the FO isn’t all that interested in dealing with him any more. And for good reason. If he makes it as a starter this year or next, it’ll be because more then one starter got hurt next season or if Waters gets hurt this season. Remember all the headlines about him throwing a shut out? Five innings. Hooray! Five innings of shut out ball? Man! Last time I checked, Liz threw a no hitter two years ago, and has, more then once, pitched shut outs in the minors. Only with those he made it passed 5 innings! Actually, Penn could make it in the bullpen. After all, he has, what, three pitches? Make him a middle reliever.

by Dr Orpheus on Aug 6, 2008 8:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed with Birdman, very optimistic projections, including for Cabrera. I think Bergesen has to be a strong candidate; I don’t necessarily think he needs to prove that this year isn’t a fluke, last year between Delmarva and Frederick he had a 3.52 ERA w/ more K/9 and even fewer BB/9. (He did struggle at Frederick a little in 07 in limited action, but still had a 4-1 K-BB ratio.) What a miracle it would be to have someone (other than Guthrie) who could pitch deep into games and get the ball over the plate.

by U2boy417 on Aug 6, 2008 8:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Jim Johnson – A lot of people are clammoring to put JJ in the rotation. My question is why? He has accelled in his role as setup man, and he is a candidate for the closer’s role next season.

Because six innings a night is a lot more valuable than one? A lot a lot a lot? It’s not even close, no matter how good a reliever he is, if he can be a decent starter.

Guthrie
Cabrera, unfortunately
Olson

Then a big battle between Liz and Penn and whatever other scrubs come along (Waters is a scrub), and I really think Arrieta could move his way up by the end of next year, too.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by SC on Aug 6, 2008 9:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Arrieta by the end of NEXT year?

As a September call-up or sooner? That seems a bit early…

"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby

by duck on Aug 6, 2008 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He’s a college dude and has some polish. I know it’s optimistic at the nicest, but hey.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by SC on Aug 7, 2008 5:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is anyone else disappointed with Bascom?

Last season he came in after being signed and destroyed. This year, he’s been hurt, then shelled. I’m hoping he figures things out. Guy always looked like he had some talent.

by Dr Orpheus on Aug 7, 2008 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bascom and Beato

Both have been huge disappointments, but there are plenty of other arms to pick up the slack.

by dkdc on Aug 7, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

erbe, too

spoone’s kind of been a disappointment, too, though.

foghat goes with everything--birdman, 5/16/08

by j.q. higgins on Aug 7, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hasn't Spoone been hurt?

Or am I thinking of another prospect?

by Dr Orpheus on Aug 7, 2008 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep...

doesn’t make it any less disappointing.

sickels referred to bascom and beato as having a contest to see who could suck more this year w/ bascom winning.

foghat goes with everything--birdman, 5/16/08

by j.q. higgins on Aug 8, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've given up on Beato

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by SC on Aug 10, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bascom was always a longshot

But yeah I’m disappointed.

"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum

Camden Chat
Bad Left Hook

by SC on Aug 10, 2008 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've heard

That right now he has a great fastball and an inconsistent slider. He’ll have to work on consistency and a third pitch in order to get a call-up.

by Reddrummer9187 on Aug 7, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Scrubs
Then a big battle between Liz and Penn and whatever other scrubs come along (Waters is a scrub), and I really think Arrieta could move his way up by the end of next year, too.

I have to agree. I simply put who I thought would get the nod. I favor Waters more because he is left handed and no one else is other than Burres (correct me if I am wrong on that one). Penn I gave the nod to as well because he was heavily considered this year, and I can’t see them not giving him the same consideration.

by PWubbs on Aug 7, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

penn

will probably be up next turn. i think dennis sarfate’s reign of terror is over.

foghat goes with everything--birdman, 5/16/08

by j.q. higgins on Aug 7, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hope

I hope his reign of terror is over.

by PWubbs on Aug 8, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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