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Repeat Last Offseason?

Last offseason, we traded away our best pitcher and best pitcher for a boatload of prospects to help us down the road.  Should we take that even further this winter?

Star-divide

Supposedly, under Andy Mac's master plan, we're supposed to show signs of a pulse in '09 and contend for real in 2010.  Let's examine the likelihood of this.  What's the supposed strength of our franchise?  Our pitching prospects in AA and A.  Do we really think they're going to be keeping their ERAs under 4 in 2010?  Our rotation is an outright catastrophe right now.  Do we really think that Chris Tillman, at age 22, will be lights out in 2010, that two pitchers in A ball (Arrieta and Erbe, who will also be just 22) will successfully jump two more leagues by then, that Hernandez will cut down on the walks enough by then to be successful? 

It's not unfathomable, and yes, there are pitchers (Lincecum, Hamels, Liriano, etc) who come into the bigs and perform well from a young age without growing pains.  But there are also a lot of guys like Bedard who take years to develop once they've reached the show, sort of like how Adam Jones is doing.  There's also no guarantee that Wieters will come in and rake right away.  We can't have Jeremy Guthrie and 4 pitchers under 24 in our rotation in 2010 and expect to win, even if we had A-Rod and Hanley Ramirez on the left side of our infield.

That said, given that our minor league strength may very well not be able to help us contend (not be .500, but be able to win in October) within a year or two, you could make a strong argument that we should continue the rebuilding.  I'm not the first to advocate this, but there's one name people don't often bring up in trade scenarios: Jeremy Guthrie.

I love Guthrie, and trading a starter of his caliber is always a dicey proposition.  But there's a good chance his '07 and '08 seasons will compare favorably to Bedard's in 06 and 07, which netted us a massive return.  He doesn't have the strikeouts, but he's far more durable (and he's also not a pansy) and farther from FA.  If we could get back an Adam Jones-type player or slightly less (in the infield, preferably) and a Chris Tillman-type pitching prospect, with one or two Sherill/Butler/Mickolio types, I'd strongly consider making that deal.

Obviously, if you do this, you must trade Roberts and Huff too.  Emphasize position players (in the infield, especially) and pitchers in the deals.  This pushes back the contending calendar another year or two, but that may be the best way to go, especially considering that you can't half-ass anything in the AL East.  Otherwise, we're hoping that by 2010, Wieters and Jones are flat-out mashing the ball, Huff's current year isn't a fluke, and Roberts, who can't seem to finish off a season strong, will still be playing well into his 30s--and then there's the pitching problem.  That's a lot of hoping.

I'm not married to this way of thinking.  A pitcher like Guthrie is just the kind of player we want coming back in deals.  A potential line-up of Roberts-Jones-Markakis-Teixeira-Wieters (if he hits like a 5)-Huff-Scott makes me swoon...if Matusz is as polished as they say (and we sign him), maybe he can indeed help very soon...and maybe Arrieta or Hernandez strike out guys and control the walks from day one and Bergesen becomes our version of Chien-Ming Wang.   

But let's not forget that our best pitcher could help us augment an already promising stash of young players who could form the nucleus of a very good team in a few years.

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Interesting

I agree, I think the road to playoff contention is a lot bumpier than most believe it is, and I think you have to explore any option puts the club closer to the playoffs. That being said I do love Guthrie.

by Birdfan01 on Aug 9, 2008 5:32 PM EDT   0 recs

The problem

with this line of thinking, as I see it, is you can get into a habit of always trading off your best guys every year. Suppose we trade Roberts, Guthrie, and Huff so next year we’re stuck with a crappy team again, but our farm system looks great. Then the following year you say “Well, we’ve got a ton f young guys coming up that are going to take a few years, by that time Markakis will be gone, we better trade him now for maximum value.” and then if those pitchers don’t pan out as quickly as you’d like, or if you get 1 guthrie and few roddy lopez’s out of our farm system in the next 3-4 years, you say “well, this next crop is coming up, but how long will they take? Better trade Matusz and Jones now to get maximum value.”

Hey, it works – look at the Twins and A’s. They do this for a living, and they compete every year (except this year when the A’s gave up suddenly). But I always thought that it wouldn’t be fun to be a fan of those teams, which act as a turnstile for players. And when you’re constantly trading off your best players, you don’t sign the big free agents, when exactly are you supposed to compete and not just be .500?

Not that that would happen if we trade off Huff and Roberts. Not at all – but it certainly opens up a slippery slope. I wouldn’t want to get rid of Guthrie, because he is exactly the kind of player we need to anchor a staff of rookies like Matusz and Arrieta and whoever.

Some say he never blinks, and that he roams around the woods at night foraging for wolves... all we know is, he's called Luke Scott.

by elk on Aug 9, 2008 6:33 PM EDT   0 recs

I see what you're saying

but I have a couple of responses. First, I think the O’s were long overdue for a serious rebuild, and while trading away Tejada and Bedard last year was a good start, you could argue that it wasn’t a complete job. We never really got all the way there, in part because the Bedard deal took so long.

I’d prefer that we’d done what we should have years ago to put us in a position where Teixeira would be the one guy to get us over the hump. We may just need to do that now and look for FAs in a couple years.

Second, I understand the frustration that would result from constantly trading off your best players, but if
your minor leagues are more promising than the big ballclub, that’s probably what you should be doing.

A lot of this depends on prediction, which is why it’s so hard. Is Huff going to hit like this the next couple years, or will he revert back to 06-07 levels? Will Roberts age well or not? Not easy to say.

In the winter, I’ll be near the top of the line of people clamoring for Teixeira. And if we get him, I’ll just pray that our pitchers develop very quickly. I was just thinking about the kind of return we could get for Guthrie, and how it might be more beneficial for a last-place team to make that trade.

(Sorry about the typo in the first sentence. Obviously meant “our best hitter and best pitcher.”)

by U2boy417 on Aug 9, 2008 9:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think you make a lot of great points

However, the difference between the Orioles and teams like the Twins and As is that the Os have more money to spend. The owner of the Twins is kind of a jerk and refuses to give the team any money to sign big name guys, but Angelos has. With Tejada, Huff, and Javy Lopez he’s proven that he’s willing to spend money; albeit not a lot, but still some. So, this team could be a lot like the Twins, only they’d have the funds to sign the big time free agents like the Twins and As always want to.

by Dr Orpheus on Aug 10, 2008 2:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

There is a very big difference between Guthrie and Bedard

Going into this year Guthrie only had 1.130 years of service. That means he’s under team control for a long time, unlike Erik Bedard. Guthrie will very likely be on the next good Orioles team, while all indications were that Bedard was going to fly the coop after 2009. Guts is also going to be relatively cheap for all the time he’s with us, and he’s a solid member of the clubhouse.

Obviously if some team offers a boatload of crap for him that makes the team better, that’s one thing. But for now I think he, along with Markakis and Jones, should generally be considered off limits.

"There is a value to breaking the string of losing seasons as an organization or as a franchise. But breaking that streak can’t come at the expense of doing what you need to do to get your franchise to the point where it can reach the postseason." ~Andy MacPhail

by Stacey on Aug 10, 2008 8:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree with this

How often is it that your ace—and Guthrie is a legitimate ace this year—is cheap and under control for four+ more years?

That’s a pitcher you build around. You’re not going to get anything in return for Guthrie that’s as sure a thing as Guthrie himself. One of the only reasons MacPhail could deal Bedard last year was that he knew Guthrie would pick up the slack. Deal the kid, and suddenly you’ve got a year with 100 losses and a general perception of “things going the wrong way”.

And at some point, you have to establish some level of continuity. There are very few perennial contenders who haven’t had the same beast at the front of their rotation for several years in a row.

Plus, the AL East dynamics are changing. While the Yankees and Red Sox both have excellent farm systems, their ML rosters are old and starting to crumble. And they’ve shown a reluctance to return to the free-wheeling mega-contract ways of the early 2000s. No real splashes at the trade deadline this year, and a general unwillingness on the parts of Epstein and Cashman to raid the farm for a quick fix. And the rise of the Rays means that there is no whipping boy in the division anymore. Not like NY and BOS are going to collapse or anything, but they are coming back to the pack.

Take this as an example: I know there are still 7 weeks of baseball left (sad, ain’t it?) but as of today’s standings are projected to the end of the season, you’ve got the Rays winning the division with 97 games and Boston getting the wild card with 92. You have Baltimore bringing up the rear with 78 games. The disparity between first and last place will be 18 games.

Compare this to the past six years: NY and Boston routinely BOTH finished with upper 90s/lower 100s victory totals. And the last two teams in the division routinely finished with fewer than 140 combined. The GB figure for the last place team was 30-40 games.

Combined 1st/2nd place victories and 4th/5th place victories by year:
2002—196/122
2003—196/134
2004—199/137
2005—190/141
2006—184/131
2007—190/135
Projected 2008—189/160(!)

Of course the numbers may slip a little in the next six weeks, but as of right now, we’re looking only the second year in the last seven where the top two don’t even break 190, and also the first year since the Rays came into the division where every team wins at least 70 games.

I’m all for trading Roberts as our last high-return veteran, and absolutely for trading Huff if he clears waivers this month (in the offseason, I think we’ll get a lot less bang for the trade). But I think in two years we will be close enough, in a more balanced division, to plug some holes with FAs when necessary.

And lastly, I don’t give a fig about Teixeira . If he’s really looking for a 10-year contract, screw it. 10-year deals are always going to be a bad idea in my mind. Too many things can happen. If halfway through the contract the team has to rebuild, you’ve got an albatross. If the player stops producing, you have a poor investment and an angry fan base. And I don’t like what it does to the dynamics of a team, because these mega-deals always elevate one player over all the others. 1B/DH is not that a difficult position to fill. Maybe we won’t get the best guy, but I’m sure we can get someone above average after the 2009 season who wants to play for a rising contender.

by zknower on Aug 10, 2008 11:28 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Think about this

The FIFTH place team in the division is projected to be 78-84 – just 3 wins away from being a .500 team and in last place. And it’s VERY possible that record will be only a few games out of what will WIN the NL West. That’s how good the division is this year. Wow.

"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby

by duck on Aug 10, 2008 12:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And the ONLY player's I'd sign for 10+ years

signed a 13-year deal this fall – Alex Ovechkin.

There ain’t a ball player I’d sign for 10 years.

"I wasn't here for the losing years. But it feels a little like the days with Earl in charge and John Lowenstein smashing birthday cakes in the middle of the clubhouse with a bat." - John "T-Bone" Shelby

by duck on Aug 10, 2008 12:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

Stacey is 100% right. Guthrie’s value to this team in service time and salary makes him much harder to trade than Bedard.

No player should be off-limits, but I can’t see how any team could offer the Orioles enough to make losing Guthrie worth it.

by dkdc on Aug 10, 2008 2:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m not sure that the fact that the AL East is more bunched than usual tells us anything, except that, as duck said, it’s still a ridiculously hard division, now with 3 monsters instead of 2, which is why you can’t go half-way on anything. I agree with Orpheus that we have the resources and occasionally the will-power to spend big on FAs, but we’re not really in a position where that would be wise. I’ll repeat, our rotation is a train wreck. People have been mostly pleased with the way this season’s gone, we’ve gotten strong years out of a lot of our hitters as well as Guthrie and a couple relievers, and we’re still under .500 and in last place.

Thus, we’ll need massive improvement from our pitching staff to be able to win in October. Many people think that can come with our crop of young arms in the minors, but all I’m saying is I don’t think we can possibly compete in 2010 or even 2011 unless multiple of them come out blazing from day one. It’s either that or sign a crazy number of FAs and get lucky with them.

One last note: yes, Guthrie is under control longer than Bedard was-and a better guy to have around-but he’s 29, the same age as Bedard. Less wear and tear on the arm, perhaps, but not as young as some might think.

by U2boy417 on Aug 10, 2008 1:16 PM EDT   0 recs

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