Hall of Fame Inductees
by Baltimo on Jan 12, 2009 2:46 PM EST
128 comments
Rickey Henderson and Jim Rice were elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame today, with Rickey making the cut easily, and Rice just barely squeezing his way in. I'm sure Jim only got in because he was in his final year of eligibility, but the guy is still deserving nonetheless.
It is, however, astounding that five percent of the writers had the nerve to not vote for a guy who had a CAREER OBP of .401, stole the most bases of all time, and scored the most runs ever. I'm not sure how you could possibly make an argument against Henderson, as he also won multiple rings as well.
I like this quote from another sports blog,
Each year when the Baseball Hall of Fame inductees are announced, there is an inevitable shake of the head when a no-brainer selection fails to get in with 100% of the vote. In fact, it has never happened for a player on his first ballot. Tom Seaver, the great New York Mets pitcher, continues to hold the record at 98.8%. Yet he was five short of unanimity. Cal Ripken Jr., the Orioles shortstop who is a paragon of the game, could not sway eight hard-hearted baseball writers in 2007.
Or perhaps it is just inattention. As reporter Jeremy Sandler mentioned in his Rickey Henderson story on this site, Arizona sportswriter Corky Simpson failed to include Henderson on his ballot in a year in which he is the obvious, and perhaps, only choice. A deeper look at Simpson’s piece about his selections reveals a ballot stuffed with eight — eight! — candidates he believes are worthy of induction, none of whom are Henderson.
In other news, Mark McGwire's vote total actually went down. The numbers should probably put the guy in, but people clearly want to get past the steroid era.
FanPosts are user-created content and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Camden Chat or SB Nation. They might, though.
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Good for Rice
Never understood why he didn’t make it long ago, great guy, great player. remeber watching him as a kid
Ricky had his ticket punched a long time ago, who else was eligible for the first time?
by merdon1332000 on Jan 12, 2009 2:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Rickey, Mark Grace, Matt Williams, Mo Vaughn, Jay Bell, Jesse Orosco, Ron Gant, Dan Plesac, and Greg Vaughn were all first timers who were included on the ballot. Besides Henderson, none came close.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Jan 12, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The others...
None of the other players, though all fine in their prime, really should come close to getting in. Matt Williams, eh, Orosco’s longevity, ok, some power hitters, whatever. Slim pickins for sure.
There is no way in hell that the blind can lead the blind...someone has to be the dog.
by sickuvitall on Jan 12, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
IF I had a ballot....
Henderson, Rice, Blyleven, McGwire
Hard (in my mind) to argue the others….
How could he be doing his job when he didn't throw me out of the game after the things I called him?
On arguing with ump Russ Goetz.
Mark Henry Belanger
by Birdland in NC on Jan 12, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tim Raines
I had Rickey, Raines, McGwire and Blyleven. I could easily be persuaded into Trammell as well.
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jan 12, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the crazy part
As ultra-picky as I am about the HoF, I think Trammell should get in. Nothing stats-based, he just always struck me as the kind of player who gets in. Just consistently very productive for a long stretch of time. Kinda like Jim Rice.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 12, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trammell was a much better player than Jim Rice
I’d have voted for Trammell, Raines, Blyleven, McGwire, and Rickey
by pipkin on Jan 12, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trammell absolutely deserves it.
As does Raines.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 7:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rock
It disgusts me that Tim Raines can’t crack 25% of the vote. Dude hit .294, OBP’d .384 (over 23 seasons!), stole 808 bases…oh, but he did coke in the 80s. You know who else did coke in the 80s?
EVERYONE.
It drives me insane that baseball writers appoint themselves as a moral compass when violent, racist Ty Cobb and whoremongering alcoholic Babe Ruth are two of the earliest inductees and biggest names in Cooperstown.
Okay, I feel better now.
by Brotz13 on Jan 13, 2009 9:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it would also be kind of cool...
if they could just go ahead and induct trammell AND lou whitaker. i mean, really.
"When people ask me what my motivation is, I have a simple answer: Money."
--Jerry Reed, on acting
by j.q. higgins on Jan 13, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Blyleven's Chances
I’ve heard his wins should get him in, but his losses total are at 250, too many for the hall, BUT Cy Young had 500 wins and over 300 losses, which means who knows in or out. It is not for us, but the writers and eventuly the veteran commitee after that. I think Blyleven should get in, but if he does, what about Tommy John and Jim Kaat……….both just shy of that 300 “shoe in”.
by Gentile4 on Jan 14, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Blyleven was a better pitcher than John or Kaat
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 15, 2009 7:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I cannot wait
for Rickey Henderson’s speech.
[Guthrie's] president of my heart. ~PhilR8
by Stacey on Jan 12, 2009 5:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Instead of using the standard first person pronoun “I”, I hope he refers to himself as “Rickey” throughout his speech.
by birdman on Jan 12, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rickey Henderson cannot wait for Rickey Henderson’s speech either, sweetheart.
-Rickey Henderson
"AY STRANG, AT BOY MARLO SCOOPIN UP ALL THE FREE AGENTS"
by 2632 on Jan 12, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps
Jim Rice was only elected so that ALL the attention would not be on Rickey. There are already folks in Cooperstown quivering at the thought of his arrival. Too bad he deserves to be there suckers! Brace urselves for the Greatest!
There is no way in hell that the blind can lead the blind...someone has to be the dog.
by sickuvitall on Jan 13, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I love this pic
Today, I am the greatest of all time.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 13, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jim Rice
How the hell did he sneak into the hall?
Are they going to induct Magglio Ordonez and Moises Alou also?
by dkdc on Jan 12, 2009 6:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Steroids era players will be judged differently. Otherwise, Juan Gone will be HOF bound.
by birdman on Jan 12, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or Nick Markakis
If Nicky puts together a career pretty similar to what he is on track to actually do, then he’ll have comparable, if not better, numbers.
I wasn’t going to trash the guy, but after last year, it was pretty obvious that Rice was going to get in. He was so close the last time around that you just knew the writers would vote him in for sentimental purposes. Furthermore, when put next to Mark McGwire, Jim Rice looks like a Saint.
I’m not the kind of guy that only wants baseball Gods in the Hall, but Jim Rice is pushing it.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on Jan 12, 2009 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I don’t see why people think that he belongs. Rice is an outfielder with less than 2500 hits, 400 HR’s, 1500 RBI, and 100 SB. He was a very good player who didn’t really play for an exceptionaly long time.
Very good player, but doesn’t seem hall worth to me.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 13, 2009 8:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PHN
there’s your answer.
Actually, he was never great, but he WAS very good for a very long time.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 13, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a nice pat little answer
but it didn’t do a whole hell of a lot for Dwight Evans or Luis Tiant.
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jan 13, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or worthy
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 13, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So you're saying
Rice is worthy?
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jan 14, 2009 5:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, actually, I am
based on the length of time he was able to keep those stats.
Now you’ll show me how my previous arguments have been logically inconsistent.
I will respond with
So What?
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 14, 2009 7:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But not Randy Johnson, huh?
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jan 14, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still saying no
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 14, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude...
I don’t even know what to say. How can you deny the Big Unit?
Unless you’re doing it just to piss off jerkwads, in which case, I understand implicitly.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 14, 2009 8:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like pissing off AMA
:)
and I’m too lazy to look up stats.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 14, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So if Rice is in
Do you also put guys like Bobby Abreu, Ellis Burks, Chili Davis, and Will Clark in the HOF?
If you’re going to be consistent, and you want to be lower the bar to allow Rice in, there is going to be whole slew of other very good corner OF’ers that you’d have to put in.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 14, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you read my stuff
you know CONSISTENT is one word never used to describe me. ADD is my friend…
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 14, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would not have voted for Jim Rice
But his inclusion is not really a bad thing.
I would have voted for Rickey, Raines, Trammell, McGwire and Blyleven. As Bill James once said, you cut split Rickey in half and have two Hall of Famers.
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 12, 2009 10:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Rickey was maddeningly good
I remember years ago sitting down with my six pack of Tuborg to watch a West Coast O’s game vs. the A’s. I’d been looking forward to it all day. I was feeling pretty good. Rickey led off with a walk. He stole second, stole third and scored on a passed ball. I decided to go to bed.
by Fred Sanford on Jan 12, 2009 11:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I kind of feel like it is becoming the Hall of Pretty Damn Good.
There is no way in hell that the blind can lead the blind...someone has to be the dog.
by sickuvitall on Jan 12, 2009 11:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This argument is tired
It’s not even called “Hall of Great” or “Hall of Amazing.” You can earn “Fame” by being “Pretty Damn Good.” If you want to argue that they should have higher standards than they do, that’s fine — and I wouldn’t have voted for Rice either. But that’s just personal opinion. This “Hall of Pretty Good” stuff is dead.
by punkrawka on Jan 13, 2009 5:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Alternative
I would like to see the vote go to members of the Hall, sort of like the Grammys where if you’ve won you get to vote. But having sportswriters do it beats the hell out of fans voting. I hate that the fans vote for the all-star game, even. If it’s the fans, it becomes the hall of yankees/redsox
by blawk359 on Jan 13, 2009 9:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If my argument is tired
than I would like to thank you for supporting it by stating that you would not have voted for Jim Rice.
There is no way in hell that the blind can lead the blind...someone has to be the dog.
by sickuvitall on Jan 13, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't mean to sound antagonistic
I wasn’t attacking you, I just don’t buy the “Hall of the Very Good” issue. I agree with your conclusion and disagree with your reasoning. It’s allowed :)
by punkrawka on Jan 13, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Always fun
to agree to disagree.
I guess the issue behind my statement is this: Does the Fame get you into the Hall, or does the Hall give you the Fame? If it is the Hall for those who are already famous, then yes, I suppose players like a Jim Rice deserve entry. If it is the Hall that is supposed to bestow upon you Fame, then the standards should be higher. I guess in this respect I am in favor of higher standards for the inductees.
There is no way in hell that the blind can lead the blind...someone has to be the dog.
by sickuvitall on Jan 13, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I already think
That the MLB hall of fame is the most restrictive of all the major sports (NFL, NBA, and NHL). You are judged by a longer history, and aren’t even considered if you don’t make some major numeric milestones… I feel like anyone voted in deserves to be so.
How could he be doing his job when he didn't throw me out of the game after the things I called him?
On arguing with ump Russ Goetz.
Mark Henry Belanger
by Birdland in NC on Jan 13, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone else feel ambivalent about Dawson?
When I was a kid, I would never have believed that Andre Dawson was anything but a first-ballot guy. Now, I just can’t get past that .323 OBP…but at the same time, when I look at the total package I see a player who was, all around, probably better than Jim Rice.
I also think Dale Murphy has just as strong a case as Rice did, and so does Dwight Evans.
But these guys don’t have Buster Olney and company talking about how “feared” they were.
The writers who didn’t vote for Henderson ought to have their vote taken away.
Anybody who didn’t vote for Henderson but has in the past voted or will vote for Jack Morris should be shot.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 7:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I bet the writers who didn't vote for Henderson and Cal are the same
Crotchety old men who didn’t drink their prune juice and just don’t want anyone to be unanimous.
by punkrawka on Jan 13, 2009 7:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jim Rice and fear
I’ve always wanted to create a universe where Jim Rice could come to bat against Bob Gibson, so the fucking earth could cave in and only the area from the mound to the plate would still exist.
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 13, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With Chuck Norris as catcher
and Mills Lanes as the ump.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 13, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe people are actually proposing Raines and Trammell...
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 9:59 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
and why is that?
They were great players. Certainly better than Jim Rice and Andre Dawson.
by pipkin on Jan 13, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Raines, Blyleven and Morris
belong in.
Rice’s vote is just like his career. For a period of time he was as feared as any player as a hitter. For some reason though he tailed off completely and that opened the doubts. Ultimately, voters decided the period of dominance was long enough for him to get in. Barely.
Morris was like Catfish Hunter. He just beat you. I know you can argue about both of them with the numbers but I am ok with them being in. But that is the most subjective argument and ultimately the voters decide.
The thing about Bly is if he just wins the 13 more games we dont even have a discussion. Throw in his fifth (as in just four other pitchers) highest strikeouts all time, sixty damn shut outs-yeah 60 and dominance in two decades and some playoff success, how is he not in?
If you study Raines numbers you know why he should be in.
Wouldnt the voting be more interesting if if was one year and done? I mean isnt it yes or no? The voting process is like some living entity that grows over time for Rice, next it will be Blyleven, etc. I do love some of the debates but its interesting how all these voters can become swayed just as we can pro or con.
And I will throw out one more thing. Raffy, McGwire, Sammy and Clemens should be in. Its going to have to happen or many of the votes going forward are going to be shams as you cant tell me some “unnamed” players arent getting in.
by sanders833 on Jan 13, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Morris isn't even close
His numbers aren’t there, he’s just got this nonsense “big game” mystique because of one great WS game he pitched. He pitched for good teams which is why he racked up 254 wins.
As far as “just beating you,” the following pitchers all have/had a better chance over their career of “just beating you”
Andy Pettite
Dave McNally
Mark Mulder
Jimmy Key
Bartolo Colon
Ramon Martinez
David Wells
Orlando Hernandez
Brandon Webb
Kenny Rogers
Mark Buehrle
Kirk Reuter
Jack McDowell
Freddy Garcia
Okay, I’ve made my point and winning % is fairly useless anyway, since a guy like Steve Carlton is actually BELOW Jack Morris. Jack Morris managed to be really good for a few years, but not oustandingly good, maybe more than 1 year (1979, 133 ERA+) with some really nice years (1981, 124 ERA+, 1982, 117 ERA+, 85, 86, 87, between 122, 126, 127 ERA+). But honestly you’re talking about a guy who, at his best, was about as good as Jeremy Guthrie has been for the past two years (125 ERA+). I like Guts, but come on. He’d need 5 more years like that to match Morris’ best years, and then several mediocre years to match him. Would that make Guts a Hall of Famer? Hell no. Neither is Morris.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
btw, sanders I don't
mean to sound like I’m coming at you because we disagreed over Dunn on another thread or something. I’m just really, really sick of hearing that Jack Morris is a Hall of Famer. No personal anything intended. And you DID admit it was your most subjective argument.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we actually agree on everything
I support your points on Morris. I just grew up watching Morris and when he took the mound it was like you knew he was going to win. In the end, I didnt need to see his stats.
So to me he felt like a HOF. Purely subjective on my part.
Dunn is just a question of assigning value. Who doesnt want .381 obp and 40 homers? I just think the O’s dont see him shortterm because of salary and longer term because of a number of factors which I dont want to go into here.
I enjoy the discussions with everyone, pro and con.
by sanders833 on Jan 13, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
BUt Jack Morris WAS
one scary muthafucka on the mound. So he’s got that going for him. Which is nice.
But then again, so was Jack McDowell when he was at his way-too-short prime.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 13, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yes, the "Yankee Flipper"
That’s my main memory of him. Giving the Stadium crowd the double bird when he was booed while being taken out of a game.
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Jan 13, 2009 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
because
Trammell – only an all-star in 6 out of his 20 season, only top 10 in MVP twice, only 4 gold gloves, only 3 SS, and only top 10 in batting 5 times. Never led the league in anything. Never 2nd in anything. 3rd in hits once! His career cumulative numbers are nice, but not great. Doesn’t feel like HOF to me.
Raines – only an all-star 7 times (all consecutively), one SS, no gold gloves, only top 10 in MVP twice, one batting title, 4 top tens in hitting, led the league in OBP once, runs twice. Basically he was an awesome player for 7 years. He was an amazing base stealer, and a good hitter.
Jim Rice – 8 time all-star (in a shorter career than either of the above), MVP WINNER, top 10 in MVP 6 times, 2 silver sluggers, top 10 in batting average 6 times, led the league in slugging twice, top 10 in slugging 8 times, led the league in OPS once/top 10 6 times, led the league in hits once/top 10 8 times, led the league in total bases 4 times/top 10 9 times, led the league in triples once, HRs 3 times/top 10 7 times, led the league in RBI twice/top 10 9 times. He has better (dramatically so) black ink, gray ink, HOF standards, and HOF monitor rankings than either of the above.
Dawson – 8 time all-star, ROY, MVP, 8 time GG winner, 4 time SS winner, top 10 MVP 4 times, top 10 AVG 5 times, slugging 8 times, OPS 6 times, led the league in hits, led the league in total bases twice and top 10 10 times, led the league in HRs once and top 10 9 times, led the league in RBI and top 10 8 times. Much better gray ink, HOF standards, and HOF monitor rankings than Raines/Trammell.
So – in a sense that’s why. Maybe I’m biased towards guys with power, but Dawson was also an 8-time gold glove winner. I just think Dawson and Jim Rice were much more dynamic, more dominant players over the course of their careers than either Trammell or Raines and I don’t even think it’s very close.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
You’re using Gold Gloves and All-Star Games as a measure of excellence? Rafael Palmeiro won a GG for playing 22 games at first base in 1999. Michael Young just won one at short, and he’s such a great SS that Texas is trying to move him to 3B. Scott Cooper went to as many ASGs as Brian Roberts. These things are often popularity contests.
Dawson had a .323 career OBP. That’s ugly. You admit that Raines was an “amazing” base stealer. Combined with his good hitting, that doesn’t win you over? I’m probably not smart enough to make a solid case for Raines, but if you have time to kill give Keith Law a read.
by Brotz13 on Jan 13, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there is definite inertia...
to some of the awards and all star status (like did tony fernandez deserve ALL those GGs over cal? pretty sure the anser is no), but what in the fuck are writers backing their votes on if they have a disdain for stats and the degree to which a player is “decorated” is not taken into account?
i dunno. there’s a lot of bullshit once you get past consensus guys.
"When people ask me what my motivation is, I have a simple answer: Money."
--Jerry Reed, on acting
by j.q. higgins on Jan 13, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll check ou tthe Keith Law article.
I agree that all-star games and ggs are not great indicators, and maybe I shouldn’t have led off with those. I pay much more attention to the number of times that a player appeared in the top-10 in a lot of statistical categories or led the league in various statistical categories, both of which Dawson and Rice did a lot more often than either Trammell or Raines.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gold Gloves mean nothing when they’re given to guys like Derek Jeter and 23 games at first base Rafael Palmeiro.
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 13, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again I shouldn't have listed them first, but I don't think they mean nothing.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well that's stupid. Sorry, but it is. They obviously aren't meaningless.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 14, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
gold gloves?
I wouldn’t say GGs are meaningless because it’s not uncommon to deserved winners. But they are very unreliable. Managers/coaches usually take hitting into account, they favor established players, and they typically don’t look beyond errors. On scale of 1 to 10, I would give GGs a 3 in terms of value when assessing a player’s defensive skills. So basically they’re next to meaningless.
by birdman on Jan 14, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How can they have meaning when one of the worst defensive player wins one? Or a guy that was pretty much for the entire year?
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 14, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doh
Meant to say: Or a guy that was pretty much a DH for the entire year?
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 14, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How can they have meaning when one of the worst defensive player wins one? Or a guy that was pretty much for the entire year?
There are screw-ups, no doubt, but they get things right as well. The screw-ups though get a lot of attention. Andruw Jones won a bunch of GGs. Those were well deserved. The 2008 GGs included controversial picks like Michael Young and the CF from Pittsburgh (his names escapes me right now) but there were also winners who actually played well.
by birdman on Jan 14, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Being right sometimes isn't much of a defense
If the slipups were somewhat minor like picking the second or third best player over a player who was obviously the best; then I could probably agree. But when you get guys voted in that didn’t play the field or were probably among the worst at their opinion, then it pretty much devalues the entire award for me.
They could occasionally get it right by throwing darts too.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 14, 2009 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone say it with me...
“A stopped clock…”
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 14, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If the slipups were somewhat minor like picking the second or third best player over a player who was obviously the best; then I could probably agree. But when you get guys voted in that didn’t play the field or were probably among the worst at their opinion, then it pretty much devalues the entire award for me.
Right, I’m not disagreeing with anything you’re saying. GGs have value but it’s very small. Like I said, on scale of 1 to 10, I’ll give them a three. If I was stop following baseball for 10 years and then all of sudden became interested again and I wanted to find out who are good defenders, I would take a look at latest GG winners as a starting point. But I would take them with a heavy grain of salt.
by birdman on Jan 14, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If somebody wins 8 GGs in a row it's saying something about his defensive abilities.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 14, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but Andruw’s defense started to slip in those later years but he kept winning the GG because he’s Andruw.
by birdman on Jan 14, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or the laziness of voters
See Ripken, Cal defensive stats vs Fernandez, Tony. You REALLY think Tony earned that award over Cal THAT many years in a row?
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 14, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
kind of
It also can easily say something about the laziness of sportswriters handing out the awards to the same guy every year. I mean did Greg Maddux really field bunts better than everyone all those times? Is Omar Vizquel really the best shortstop every year?
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 15, 2009 8:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not writers
Coaches. Coaches. Coaches.
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 15, 2009 8:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Says more about his reputation
Which may or may may not reflect his abilities
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 15, 2009 8:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
right
and don’t you think that reputation is at least partially reflective of reality however imperfect?
by birdman on Jan 15, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not reliably enough to make it of much value to use in my opinion.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 15, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 15, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that CF from Pittsburgh
is Nate McLouth…and he may very well have been the worst defender in baseball last year. On the +/- system he’s at a -40.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 14, 2009 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of irrational voting...
I know this is slightly off topic, but who are the 5 knuckleheads who voted for Mark Hendrickson in the CC poll regarding who will be the second-best starter this year?? I know we are all entitled to our own opinions, but really…I hope you were just playing around or meant to click someone else and stumbled upon Hendrickson’s check box.
There is no way in hell that the blind can lead the blind...someone has to be the dog.
by sickuvitall on Jan 13, 2009 1:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't even vote in that poll
I honestly had no idea what to put.
[Guthrie's] president of my heart. ~PhilR8
by Stacey on Jan 13, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I went with other
have my fingers crossed that Patton will be good, we sign or trade for someone yet or someone pulls a Jeremy Guthrie and justs comes from nowhere.
Of course, I hope Koji and Garrett are right there as well.
by sanders833 on Jan 13, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn’t feel like HOF to me.
that is a great line that I think everyone mentally uses regardless of the numbers. You make some great points.
by sanders833 on Jan 13, 2009 2:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Was that supposed to be a reply to me?
I was saying the statistics don’t feel like HOF to me – not that the player didn’t feel like HOF to me.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes
Ok.
I twisted it to my sentiment then. Like if someone asked me off the top of my head is Jack Morris a HOF I would have said yes. Then someone does the leg work and they have me thinking I was wrong. But in my head I would still believe it. And if you would have asked me about Trammell I would have said no off the top of my head.
by sanders833 on Jan 13, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Raines > Dawson every single day of every single week
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 13, 2009 4:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Can you elaborate a bit? (not asking to be a dick)
When I look at the stats I just don’t see it.
Dawson had more finishes in the top 10 in batting average (although never led the league like Raines), 8 times as many top 10 finishes in slugging, more top 10 finishes in OPS (6-4), same number of top 10 finishes in hits and led the league in hits which Raines never did, many more top 10 finishes in total bases – led the league twice in that (10 top 10s to Raines’ 4), same number of top 10s in 2bs, and then destroys him in HR and RBI, while being destroyed SBs and OBP. When you throw in the fact that he won an MVP, a ROY, 8 SS (to Raines’ 7 which is probably negligible), 8 gold gloves (to Raines’ zero which is not negligible – even if you think GGs are BS), 4 silver sluggers (to Raines’ 1 – again not negligible), it’s just hard for me to see where the argument is…
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's all in the OBP
Dawson’s career OBP is .323, which would be the lowest of any OF in the Hall.
Raines career OBP was something like .383? Sixty points of OBP over careers that long is a HUGE difference.
Raines should’ve won at least one MVP at some point. He’s also one of the best base stealers of all time; by success rate measured against number of attempts he IS the best. No, he didn’t get as many as Rickey, but he got a whole damn lot and he did it at a better success rate.
808 steals, only caught 146 times. Yes, Rickey has hundreds more steals (but he has hundreds more steals than anyone else; you almost can’t compare ANY other base-stealer to Rickey because he’s so far ahead of the rest; Raines is #5, #4 on the non Rickey list, and has a better percentage than those nearest him).
The problems for Raines are the inevitable comparisons to Rickey. Raines is on the short list of “greatest leadoff hitters of all time,” it’s just that Rickey is SO FAR ahead of him that he doesn’t look all that impressive now.
Also RE: Dawson’s MVP season…ehhhh. There were a lot of better players that year. I’ve read good arguments for Ozzie Smith, and I think Raines, Strawberry, Will Clark and ESPECIALLY Jack Clark all had better years than Dawson did then.
I loved Andre Dawson as a kid, I really did; if you’d told me when I was 10 that he wouldn’t be a Hall of Famer when I was 30, I would’ve punched you. Now, I say…he’ll probably get in, I think he deserves it at least as much as Rice (more, perhaps) but he wasn’t as good as Raines.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So it's a single stat that makes up your mind?
I’m not finding that very convincing when I look at all the other stats that Dawson was better than him in compared to the rest of the league. Dawson just seems like a much more productive hitter to me when I look at all the stats.
As far as his MVP year being debatable – that may be, but Raines wasn’t even in the top 5 of MVP voting that year. So…not sure your argument there really holds much water. Also he had 57 more hits, 15 more HRs, 31 more RBI, and 10 more SBs than Jack Clark. The fact that the guy had a lot more walks and a higher OBP don’t really make up for those gaps in my mind. Will Clark and Stawberry were closer (with Strawberry probably being the closest), but he still had pretty dramatically better HR/RBI numbers.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
RBI are a function of who is in front of you in the lineup
more than what kind of hitter you are. Sure, getting lots of RBI is impressive.
And yes, when the “single stat” in question is OBP, which is the single most important offensive stat in the game…yes.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah - I keep forgetting that defense doesn't matter at all...
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not like Tim Raines was out there falling down and not catching fly balls. Dawson was a better outfielder in that he certainly had a better arm, but Raines didn’t suck.
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 13, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I find it hard to ingore 8 gold gloves to zero gold gloves.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gold Gloves don't mean anything in and of themselves
because they are voted on by media with all the attendant biases and shortcomings. Yes, Dawson was an outstanding OF but to reiterate SC’s point, Tim Raines was no Dave Kingman or Adam Dunn out there.
Gold Gloves do not show defensive value. They show that a lot of reporters THINK somebody has defensive value. Look at Derek Jeter; any number of independently conducted sabermetric studies have shown he is an absolutely brutal, brutal defender. But he has 3 gold gloves.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 7:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And like I said - I'm not using them on their own.
I’m combining the fact that he was a very good offensive player. If you give Raines the edge offensively, even if I agree to accept that argument based on OBP and SBs (which I don’t really…although I’m not positive), then the fact that Dawson (in the eyes of the people that count – since I can’t watch most guys play 162 games a year to judge for myself) was a better fielder to the tun of 8 GGs to zero pushes him ahead of Raines in my mind. Then throw in the MVP and the ROY and it’s a pretty easy decision.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well, also...
with the GG thing…it’s not as though the guys voting on the GGs or MVPs actually see the guy in 162 games, either. Maybe his local guys do…but the guy with a GG vote in NY, covering the Yankees…or even the Mets…didn’t see Dawson play 162 games, or 60, or even more than 10 to 12, I’d think. When it comes to the MVP…and I think history tends to bear this out…lots of old-school reporter types look at who has the most HR or RBI or combination of both, more often nowadays on a playoff team. (I don’t buy the ‘has to be a playoff team to be MVP’ nonsense, that’s a whole other issue). And in Dawson’s case his team did finish last.
I think Dawson is a great player and he probably will get in in spite of his .323 OBP; I don’t know that he “truly” deserves but it is hard to say. But I’d take Raines over him and vote for Raines over him, and yes, lots of that is based on OBP; 60 points is too hard for me to ignore. Especially considering that .323 is not just “not elite,” it’s below average, and would be the lowest of any OF in the Hall.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can respect that.
I’ve got a new respect for Raines as a player in the course of this discussion. I’m not POSITIVE that either of them deserves the HOF, and if forced to choose one of the two I still lean towards Dawson, but it’s not as immediate a reaction as it first was.
As far as the GG voting – I would hope that they see the guy more than I do, but maybe that’s naive.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm betting you do
since you most likely watch games every night.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 13, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
gold gloves are voted by coaches and the managers not the media
by birdman on Jan 13, 2009 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
d'oh.
a nagging voice kept telling me to check on that, but I ignored it. since that IS the case…the dudes definitely don’t see the guy 162 times.
With the MVP vote I’d say the point I made above still stands, though.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 8:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cal Ripken had a year when
he made THREE errors at SS. Didn’t win the Gold Glove. Tony Fernandez did. What’s that tell you about Gold Gloves? And Raffy’s 23-game performance at 1B has been beaten death like a horse with the plague….
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 13, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I said "offensive stat."
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Raines’ career OPS+ (park-adjusted) was 123. Dawson’s was 119, even with a lot more home runs and RBIs.
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 13, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it is the one single most important stat
so yes
by pipkin on Jan 13, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're input to this discussion is so interesting!
I’m glad you bothered to stop by…
by O'sFan21 on Jan 14, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For my own personal edification
I used “The Musinator” as dubbed by Posnanski; used the lineup analysis tool by David Pinto over at baseballmusings.com. I ran through it a lineup composed solely of Tim Raines in 1987.
The All Raineses score 7.450 runs a game, resulting in 1260 runs in a year.
The All Dawsons score 6.04 runs a game, resulting in 978.48 runs a year.
Most runs ever scored by a modern era team: ’31 Yankees, 1,067. All Raines 87 team outpaces that handily.
Now, the Dawson team comes pretty darn close; less than a hundred runs away. That All Dawson team wins a lot of games. But the All Raines win more. That year, Raines had a 101 point advantage in OBP over Dawson, yet Dawson won the MVP, which was silly.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm confused.
You used Tim Raines’ 1987 season to create the lineup and then used Dawson’s career numbers to create the lineup? Or you used Dawson’s 1987 season as well?
Again 49 HRs and 137 RBI speak pretty loudly regardless of who’s in front of you.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I used the 1987 seasons from BOTH of them.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 7:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sorry, my post definitely omitted that it was the 87 season for both. my bad.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a lot of good Rock Raines stuff here, which is all Bill James stuff that sort of explains my stance. He was a better player than Dawson and if I’m in a weird all-time draft and Raines and Dawson are my two choices, I take Raines every time without thinking.
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 13, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Despite the fact that a lot of smart people (who count...) don't agree with you.
Given that 67% of people think Dawson is HOF worthy and only 23% think the same about Raines…
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the day I believe that somebody like Roch or Schmucker
is smarter than I am, or smarter than SC, is the day I die, and both of them have HoF votes (Schmuck can’t b/c the Sun hates fun stuff)
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Schmuck can't vote, that is.
Dunno if Roch did. Difficult to type around cats.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 7:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Walking on the keyboard again, huh?
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
by duck on Jan 13, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or at least trying
to get between me and the laptop.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on Jan 13, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say smarter - just smart. But maybe that's not even true. lol.
You make a good point here.
by O'sFan21 on Jan 13, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They only count if you really care about the Hall of Fame. I genuinely don’t. I find it fun to debate and discuss this stuff, but at the end of the day if they had put Jim Deshaies in, I wouldn’t really care. Their opinions don’t really color mine in any way. I think they’re wrong about Dawson and Raines, if only slightly sort of wrong about Dawson (and if Dawson gets in, whatever, he was a good player). I think they’re horribly wrong about Raines. I also think they’re mildly wrong on Jim Rice, but I think the voters COMPLETELY IGNORING the career of Lou Whitaker is a worse offense.
So in summary:
Regarding Dawson as good enough doesn’t bother me
Regarding Raines as somehow not close to good enough does
Regarding Rice as good enough doesn’t bother me
Ignoring the fact that Lou Whitaker is one of the ten or twelve best second basemen to ever play does
and so on with stuff like that
There’s really no one IN the Hall of Fame (as a player) that, like, gets my blood boiling.
"I decided to become a basketball fan this year and it’s not working out so well because the Wizards SUUUCK. So then I shifted to hockey. That’s pretty fun except there are a lot of flashing lights and horns and shit at the game."
by SC on Jan 13, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
On one hand I agree with you
But on the other hand I really don’t. Because this isn’t about one or the other player. I think Rice and Dawson weren’t that great, but many others do. I really am pissed that the baseball writers, the (partially) self-appointed interpreters of this game that we love, can’t be bothered to learn how it actually works. They ignore important stats while promoting useless ones. still. This leads to dumb arguments about “fear,” which is not something that anyone can measure. Henry Chadwick is dead, fellas. Move on.
by pipkin on Jan 13, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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