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Wieters Hype Train

 I've spent all winter trying to temper my expectations for Wieters, and then Kevin Goldstein goes and writes this article:

 http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8453

What did I learn this winter? I learned that Baltimore catching prospect Matt Wieters is good. Well, wait a second, I already knew that, so how about, "really good"? Nope, the extra modifier just doesn't do it justice.

How about this: after looking at the performance, talking to the scouts, and seeing what our numbers people were able to uncover over the offseason, Matt Wieters is the best prospect in baseball, the best player on the Orioles right now, and quite possibly the best catcher in the game. And he's yet to play an inning in the big leagues.

 So we know he's great, but work done by our team of researchers and statisticians during the offseason suggests that he might just be historic. One essential measurement here at Baseball Prospectus is Clay Davenport's Equivalent Average (abbreviated as EqA),s a single figure that measures total offense and adjusts for a number of factors, including the league's offensive environment, park factors, and team pitching, while providing further balances to allow for accurate comparisons across different eras.

Applying these complex formulas to Wieters' minor league season gives him a .301 EqA for his High-A stint and a .349 mark at Double-A. EqA is scaled like batting average, so those are good numbers to be sure, but further research reveals that those are the highest marks achieved in both leagues in the last 40 years, which is as far back as our data goes. Matt Wieters wasn't just great last year, he put together one of the best single seasons in modern minor league history.

If that isn't an enthusiastic-enough endorsement, then there's PECOTA, our projection system, and the most accurate one in the business. PECOTA is a system that does what it does based on comparisons

— finding similar players with similar physical tools and baseball skill sets. According to PECOTA, with a full slate of at-bats, Wieters should hit .311 with a .395 on-base percentage and a .544 slugging mark this year. That's good for a .319 EqA. How good is that? Historically great, because it would easily be the highest mark of any catcher in 2009, and only 17 catchers have exceeded that mark in the history of baseball.

Now, when ranking prospects, simply going by the numbers is a fool's choice. Knowing what a player is doing is one thing, but knowing how that player is doing it is just as vital. Scouts are great people to talk to, often giving you in-depth breakdowns on every aspect of a player's game. Those were a little harder to come by on Wieters following his season; one scout presented with the name simply laughed, stating, "What can I say? The guy is just a stud." Even beyond the simple dominance reflected in the stats, that's what he is on a scouting level as well. We're talking about a massive physical specimen who combines plus power from both sides of the plate, the strike-zone discipline of a sharp-eyed veteran, above-average defensive skills behind the plate, and a cannon for an arm, proven by the 96 mph fastballs he'd throw during his days when he did double duty as Georgia Tech's closer in college.

He can't really be THAT good, can he?

FanPosts are user-created content and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Camden Chat or SB Nation. They might, though.

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Seriously, the hype is out of control

At this point, if he’s not the greatest player in history within two months of his callup, I’m gonna be a little disappointed.

by Joltin Joe Orsulak on Jan 30, 2009 12:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Just put him in the HOF right now

"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 30, 2009 1:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

.311/.395/.544

Never mind how good that is for catchers, how would that rank historically for a rookie?
If he hits like that in his rookie season I will sh*t a proverbial brick.

From the Land of Pleasant Living...

by OEutaw on Jan 30, 2009 1:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I’ll be ecstatic with 270/350/450. That would still be ROY territory. If he puts up a 940 OPS, I’ll rename my dog.

"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 30, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll BUY a dog, name it, then rename it Wieters

if he puts up a 900+ OPS

Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.

by duck on Jan 30, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I hear Wieters can bend metal by merely looking at it.

"fuck the Yankees and fuck the Red Sox and all their players and fans and former players and fans and their loved ones and pets as well!" sickuvitall

by birdman on Jan 30, 2009 1:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Let's start it now

Matt Wieters won a poker game in college with a 3 of spades, a 2 of clubs, a Reverse Uno card, a Sorry Start card and a Get Out of Jail Free Monopoly card. And didn’t even need the river cards.

Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.

by duck on Jan 30, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Some people call the A-Team when in trouble. When the A-Team is in trouble, they call Wieters.

"fuck the Yankees and fuck the Red Sox and all their players and fans and former players and fans and their loved ones and pets as well!" sickuvitall

by birdman on Jan 30, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Matt Wieters had an illicit affair with Brian Roberts’ wife. Nine months later, she gave birth to a Ford Expedition.

by blawk359 on Jan 30, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wieters finds wearing a cup when catching “unnecessary.”

"fuck the Yankees and fuck the Red Sox and all their players and fans and former players and fans and their loved ones and pets as well!" sickuvitall

by birdman on Jan 30, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Abraham Lincoln’s money has Matt Wieters’ picture on it.

by Brotz13 on Jan 31, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wieters can make Jack Bauer talk just by glancing in his direction

You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.

by sluggo 2.0 on Jan 31, 2009 9:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Now that's just ridiculous.

Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.

by duck on Feb 2, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mr. wieter would like to speak to you.

"fuck the Yankees and fuck the Red Sox and all their players and fans and former players and fans and their loved ones and pets as well!" sickuvitall

by birdman on Feb 2, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Now, if it had said

’11 I would have agreed completely.

Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.

by duck on Feb 2, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I meant to say

Weiters is so good,

the league awards the 2008 division crown to Baltimore and makes them play the playoffs all over.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Feb 2, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's better

See, that’s totally possible with Wieters.

Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.

by duck on Feb 3, 2009 6:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wow

always good to be reminded how truly great he was, is, and will be

by pipkin on Jan 30, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Glenallen Hill

had all of this hype in the minors, and what happened to him?

I just want to temper the hype until I see some actual results.

"This world extends way beyond this little field of dreams we're dancing in and I want to see that world"

by exitfare on Jan 30, 2009 2:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your point

But Glenallen Hill was nowhere near the prospect that Wieters is. Hill was a 9th round pick, spent 7 years in the minors and put up a 768 OPS in the minors.

"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle

by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 30, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Glenallen HIll also

looked like some sort of terminator robot.

by O'sFan21 on Jan 30, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What I am saying is that I am sure the guy is going to be good

but I run away from hype — I hate it because, especially in the music industry, it never amounts to what you thought it would.

I know this kid is going to be good, but I don’t use to get ahead of ourselves. Let’s have this conversation in September. If he’s mashing then, I’ll be glad to hop on the hype train.

"This world extends way beyond this little field of dreams we're dancing in and I want to see that world"

by exitfare on Jan 30, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey

by jobe on Jan 30, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No ....

… but if it will ensure Weiters plays well in the bigs, I’ll contribute to the fund for making sure you do.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Feb 2, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hype

He has been hyped so much it is almost like he can’t possibly meet the hype. It’s almost like he’ll be a disappointment if he can’t walk on water. I also worry about injury and the sort.

Librarians are hiding something

by dfa on Jan 30, 2009 2:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

In fairness

Evan Longoria went through much the same last year, altough maybe to a slight lesser degree. One minor injury aside, that worked out pretty well for everyone involved, didn’t it?

Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.

by duck on Jan 30, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

totally

I just worry that the hype will lead to the expecation that he will singlehandedly lead us to the promised land. Or at least a 500 record. Big shoes for anyone to fill considering the organization he is a part of.

Librarians are hiding something

by dfa on Jan 30, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that's the expectation for 2009

Now, 2011? Oh yeah. He’s on notice.

Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.

by duck on Jan 30, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember

thinking the exact same thing about Lebron when he was in Weiters’ position. Just putting it out there.

by VB O's Guy on Jan 30, 2009 11:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wait

is this a positive or a negative?

by pipkin on Jan 30, 2009 11:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well

Considering Lebron is the most ridiculously amazing player this side of Michael Jordan, I’d say a positive.

Bad Left Hook
Camden Chat

"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."

"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."

by SC on Jan 31, 2009 1:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

melo

I’d even take a Melo-esque type player. I just hope we don’t end up with Darko.

Librarians are hiding something

by dfa on Jan 31, 2009 2:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can here that momo

Stephen A. Smith groaning in his voice of disdain saying “Darko Milicic”. You know you have hit bottom when Stephen does that to you!

"...that our flag was still there...OOOOOO say does that star spangled..."

by sickuvitall on Jan 31, 2009 3:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i guess

When I posted this I had forgotten how much LeBron has stepped it up this year (and last). When he first came out people thought he was underwhelming, or something.

I think my other problem is that most of my NBA knowledge comes from Simmons, who is biased as hell.

by pipkin on Jan 31, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's already done that.

While at Tech he regularly won bets by walking across the Chattahouchie river without getting wet.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Feb 2, 2009 6:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly

People will give him a year, but if Matt isn’t undoubtedly the best catcher in 2010, then there will be huge cries of disappointment.

My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver

by Baltimo on Jan 30, 2009 3:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Zaun better get off to a hot start

or he will be getting booed every time…

by sanders833 on Jan 30, 2009 3:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Zaun will need an OPS

Around 1.000 if he hopes to fend Wieters off. He’s pretty much been a career backup, and he signed with us realizing that his main role was to serve as a stopgap and then mentor.

My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver

by Baltimo on Jan 30, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

but when you are Jimmy Olsen and your keeping Superman from playing, Metropolis will wonder why.

If Zaun hits .200 for the first two weeks of the season, who you gonna call…..

by sanders833 on Jan 30, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

It's ZAUN!

Get the spelling right! ALL CAPS, PEOPLE!

Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.

by duck on Jan 30, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

could Zaun change his name to

ZAUN Z. ZAUN?

"This world extends way beyond this little field of dreams we're dancing in and I want to see that world"

by exitfare on Jan 30, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Some additional stuff from Fangraphs
However, I’m not sure people realize just how special the season that Wieters just had in Double-A really was. Here is the list of players who have hit had comparable offensive seasons in Double-A at age 22 or younger in the last 30 years.

Jose Canseco, 1985, age 20: .318/.406/.739 in 211 AB
Bob Hamelin, 1989, age 21: .308/.454/.640 in 211 AB
David Wright, 2004, age 21: .363/.467/.719 in 223 AB
Pat Burrell, 1999, age 22: .333/.438/.631 in 417 AB
Doug Jennings, 1987, age 22: .338/.459/.608 in 464 AB
Ben Grieve, 1997, age 21: .328/.455/.610 in 372 AB
Vladimir Guerrero, 1996, age 20: .360/.438/.612 in 417 AB
Miguel Cabrera, 2003, age 20: .365/.429/.609 in 266 AB
Eric Chavez, 1998, age 20: .328/.402/.612 in 335 AB

Okay, so, Hamelin and Jennings are around to remind us that he’s not a 100% mortal lock for stardom, but even including those guys, they totaled 33,620 major league at-bats and combined for a .283/.377/.501 mark. That’s an .878 OPS as a group. You know how many major league catchers have posted a career OPS of .878 or higher? Two – Mike Piazza and Mickey Cochrane.

I’m not saying that we should just enrhine Wieters in the Hall of Fame right now. There’s some chance that he’s going to be this generation’s Doug Jennings, after all. But it’s far, far more likely that Wieters is the best position prospect we’ve seen in quite a while – a catcher who hits like a DH and has the glove to be an asset behind the plate. That’s a remarkable player. Maybe we should start bronzing his plaque after all.

Link

[Guthrie's] president of my heart. ~PhilR8

by Stacey on Jan 30, 2009 7:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Okay, so, Hamelin and Jennings are around to remind us that he’s not a 100% mortal lock for stardom

Grieve or Chavez don’t inspire much confidence either, although the later has been derailed more by injuries.

"fuck the Yankees and fuck the Red Sox and all their players and fans and former players and fans and their loved ones and pets as well!" sickuvitall

by birdman on Jan 30, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Chavez's body failed him more than anything

Bad Left Hook
Camden Chat

"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."

"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."

by SC on Jan 30, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but i actually believe in matt

like tom cruise believes in thetans

by pipkin on Jan 30, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Most recently

the Germans.

Always trust your cape. -Guy Clark

by BPinOK on Feb 3, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I heard they were good once...

… but pretty much suck these days.

Sort of like the O’s, when you think about it.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Feb 3, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He can’t really be THAT good, can he?

Yes.

Bad Left Hook
Camden Chat

"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."

"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."

by SC on Jan 30, 2009 10:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I imagine he'll be this year's Evan Longoria. Hype and all.

...Snoop Doggy-Dogg... Ya need to get yourself a jobby-job.

by oc on Jan 31, 2009 1:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

probably won't make the playoffs though

Bad Left Hook
Camden Chat

"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."

"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."

by SC on Jan 31, 2009 2:28 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

CRASH!!

"...that our flag was still there...OOOOOO say does that star spangled..."

by sickuvitall on Jan 31, 2009 2:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not when he is being compared to Tex

and has the same agent…still if it werent for Boras the Pirates would have him.

by sanders833 on Jan 31, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

very true

good with the bad. at least we get him for 6 years.

by pipkin on Jan 31, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

7 years

If he stays in the minors for a few weeks.

by dkdc on Jan 31, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

really?

that’s how that works? weird.

by pipkin on Feb 1, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

A player needs to accumulate 6 full years of major league service time to become a free agent.

In any major league season, if a player earns spends 172 or more days on the Major League roster, he is credited with a year of service time.

If Wieters is called up on say, April 16th, he will only accrue 171 days of service time this year. Assuming he stays in the majors for good, he will have 5 years, 171 days of service time after the 2014 season, so he won’t be eiligible for free agency until after the 2015 season.

by dkdc on Feb 1, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ok gotcha

but as a counterweight that’s what “super-two” comes from, right? Wieters is gonna hit the arbitration big bucks after that third year anyway.

But, I mean, it’s not like the Orioles are going to non-tender the man, so whatever.

by pipkin on Feb 1, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

Super-two’s qualify for arbitration after 2 years and ~130 days (the exact cutoff varies every year).

If the O’s go really cheap, they can keep Wieters down until June 1 or so and they get him for 7 years at lower salaries.

That 7th year is a no-brainer, andI wouldn’t be shocked if Andy plays it safe and lets Wieters sit at AAA for 2 months to save some coin.

by dkdc on Feb 1, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

supplemental info

The super 2 thing is why a lot of top prospects get called up in late May/early June. Last year Jay Bruce and Clayton Kershaw were two examples that I recall that were called up in that time frame. I’m certain that the super 2 thing was a factor with Bruce, less so with Kershaw.

An example of the Orioles wasting service time is Nick Markakis. Based on his solid spring training in 06, despite only having a month above Frederick, Nick made the team. And of course he struggled mightily for two months. (It’s worth noting that he did well in the AFL, so it’s not he totally wasn’t ready, but it was a pretty dumb move that theoretically could’ve cost the Orioles a lot of money.) Given that Boras is Wieters’ agent, I’ll be kind of pissed if Matt makes the OD roster.

Librarians are hiding something

by dfa on Feb 1, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Matt Wieters will stink up the Yard. Thank Cripes we'll have ZAUN to lead us into the playoffs.

And to settle our No. 2 starter once we re-sign Sid.

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.

by Titov on Jan 31, 2009 5:06 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wieters will arrive at the Warehouse for a photo op. Petey will shake his hand for the cameras, breaking Wieters' thumb.

Rushing Wieters to the hospital for x-rays, the ambulance will swerve to avoid a fat drunk wearing an I Heart Aruba t-shirt and hit Guts riding his bike to work.

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.

by Titov on Feb 2, 2009 1:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

lets hope

Hayden Penn and Wieters arent roommates…

by sanders833 on Feb 2, 2009 9:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

n/t

Librarians are hiding something

by dfa on Feb 2, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

would it be safe to say that the wieters hype train...

is crazy?

i know, i know…i’ve tried to hold back this long and just couldn’t do it.

"When people ask me what my motivation is, I have a simple answer: Money."

--Jerry Reed, on acting

by j.q. higgins on Feb 3, 2009 4:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You should have posted a pic of Randy Rhodes rather than Ozzy since it’s his riff that really makes that song.

"fuck the Yankees and fuck the Red Sox and all their players and fans and former players and fans and their loved ones and pets as well!" sickuvitall

by birdman on Feb 3, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your wish...

Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.

by duck on Feb 3, 2009 9:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well...

i was really thinking about ozzy’s manic “all aboooaaarrrrrrd…MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!” that precedes the riff.

"When people ask me what my motivation is, I have a simple answer: Money."

--Jerry Reed, on acting

by j.q. higgins on Feb 4, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Crazy train, love train, peace train

The decade of the teens will be the Matt Wieters decade

The teens just doesnt have the same ring as the SIXTIES….shit nobody on this board as lived through such a decade….

Long live Wieters…

dont screw this up Matt….lol

by sanders833 on Feb 3, 2009 10:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

In honor

of sir sid…Gravy Train

Always trust your cape. -Guy Clark

by BPinOK on Feb 3, 2009 11:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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