Camden Chat: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Sean Keeley's Week 12 College Football Buffet

Fun Facts About Earl Weaver

In the past week or so, it has come to my attention that some of the Camden Chat community are not familiar with why exactly Earl Weaver is probably one of the 5 greatest managers of all time and how far he was ahead of his time.  Below is an excellent starting point, Earl Weaver's 10 Laws.

 

Star-divide

Weaver's First Law: No one's going to give a damn in July if you lost a game in March

Weaver's Second Law: If you don't make any promises to your players you won't have to break them

Weaver's Third Law: The easiest way around the bases is with one swing of the bat

Weaver's Fourth Law: Your most precious possessions on offense are your twenty-seven outs

Weaver's Fifth Law: If you play for one run, that's all you'll get

Weaver's Sixth Law: Don't play for one run unless you know that run will win a ballgame

Weaver's Seventh Law: It's easier to find four good starters than five

Weaver's Eighth Law: The best place for a rookie pitcher is in long relief


Weaver's Ninth Law: The key step for an infielder is the first one - left or right - but before the ball is hit


Weaver's Tenth Law: The job of arguing with the umpire belongs to the manager, because it won't hurt the team if he gets thrown out of the game

FanPosts are user-created content and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Camden Chat or SB Nation. They might, though.

3 recs  |  Comment 70 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Bill James On Earl Weaver

This is a liberal quotation from section on Earl Weaver in Bill James Book on baseball managers. I think it does a nice job of summing up why he was so good at what he did. When you read it, think about whether any Oriole managers in recent years were so thoughtful about what they were doing. Also, remember that during his first run with the Orioles, this guy never finished a full season with less than 80 wins and during that stretch his second-worst season was 88 wins – that’s one more win than the Why Not? ‘89 Orioles and the same record as the 1996 Orioles, two of the three best teams most people in the Camden Chat community remember. That’s just remarkable, in my opinion, especially when you think about the turnover his teams had.

Did He Favor a Set Lineup or a Rotation System? His first team, the 1969-1971 Orioles, had essentially a settled lineup. IN later hears he used a bewildering rotation system which involved not only platooning at four or more positions, but also three-man and four-man platoons, offensive and defensive specialists, and curveball/fastball platoons.

Did he Try to Solve His Problems with Proven Players or with Youngsters who Still may Have Had Something to Learn? What he liked to do was take two or three veteran minor leaguers, each of whom was one tool or two tools short of a whole package, and try to find some way to use them that would hide their weaknesses and make maximum use of what they did well. He had great success with guys like Pat Kelly, Larry Harlow, Andes Mora, Terry Crowley, John Lowenstein, and Benny Ayala, who for the most part would have never gotten more than a cup of coffee with other teams.
He also did a good job developing some young players, and he did look several years down the road, but only when he had a player with ability. He brought along Bobby Grich, Doug DeCinces, Don Baylor, and Eddie Murray. In 1982 he was the only man in the world who thought that Cal Ripken could be a major league shortstop.

Did He Pefer to Go with Good Offensive Players or Did He Like the Glove Men? Most of his players were clearly one or the other. There were many defensive specialists who played regularly for him, including Dempsey, Belanger, Larry Harlow, Etchebarren, Hendricks, Dauer, Paul Blair, and the aging Brooks Robinson. His teams always played outstanding defense. He also found room for some players who were slow and didn’t play great defense including Boog Powell, Ken Singleton, and a boatload of pinching-hitting outfielders.
What Weaver never used were the guys who didn’t do anything specific, but looked good in the uniform, the .260 hitters with 10 to 15 homers, a little speed, and so-so defense. (Acquiring these kinds of players seems to have be the guiding philosophy of the Baltimore Orioles for much of the past 12 years)

Did He Use the Entire Roster or Did He keep People Sitting on the Bench? He used everybody. Probably more than any other manager in history, Weaver had carefully defined roles for every player on his roster – not because he cared about the players (that’s for sure), but because he cared about the games. It was important to Weaver to have a player matched up in his mind with every possible game situation. If I’m down two runs in the eighth inning and the other guy switches from a left-handed starter to a right-handed reliever and back to a left-hander, will I have a pinch hitter to hit for my second baseman? If the pinch hitter hits a three-run homer, will I have someone who can go in at second base?
To Weaver, it was all but impossible to get every situation covered with just 25 men on the roster. It wasn’t a question of having 25 players and only 18 of them playing; if he had 30 men, he’d have started pinch-hitting in the fourth inning, and he’d used all 30.

Did He Go for the Big-Inning Offense, or Did He Like to Use One-Run Strategies? He is the most outspoken advocate of the big inning in baseball history.

Did He Pinch Hit Much, and If So, When? There is a considerable difference between what left fielders hit and first basemen hit, and what middle infielders hit. This difference is such that players who might not hit enough to be major league left fielders or first basemen, particularly if their defense is poor, will still hit more than some middle infielders.
Weaver exploited that differential by putting three or even four defensive specialists in the lineup, then pinch hitting for them with outfielders who were considered rejects by other teams. Of course, managers have done this for a hundred years, but Weaver did more of it than any other manager in his time, maybe more than any other manager of all time. Many managers simply put their eight best hitters in the field, or structure their roster in such a way that they have few opportunities to pinch-hit for the frontline players.
When the designated hitter rule was adopted in 1973, and Weaver no longer had to pinch-hit for his pitchers, he realized immediately that this in effect had expanded his roster, giving him more maneuverability with the bench. With the passage of time, the effect of the DH rule has been to allow managers to carry more pitchers, thus making more pitching changes. Weaver didn’t do that. Weaver used nine pitchers, which meant that he had room for eight starters and eight bench players, one of whom would be the DH. He needed to have two catchers, and he liked to have a third catcher who could actually hit. He needed a defensive backup for the outfield and a defensive backup for the infield. That left room for four extra outfielders an first basemen, all of whom could reach the seats. He used them to pinch-hit for guys, like Mark Belanger, Rick Dempsey, Rich Dauer, and Larry Harlow, whose job it was to catch everything and keep the starting pitcher in the game for the first seven innings.

Did He Use the Sac Bunt Often? He hated the bunt. In his early years he bunted 60 to 85 times a season, normal totals. As he got more settled into the job he began to bunt less and less. By the end of his career he was down to about 30 bunts a season.

Did He Like To Use the Running Game? He did not.

In What Circumstances Would He Issue an Intentional Walk? Whenever there was a blizzard in hell.

Did he Hit and Run Very Often? He did not.

How Did He Change the Game? Weaver was an outspoken advocate of the big inning, and an outspoken opponent of the bunt. His willingness to challenge orthodoxy on this subject combined with his success, helped push the sacrifice bunt towards extinction.
Weaver was somewhat out of step with baseball of the 1970’s, which featured new stolen base records every year, but might be considered one of the architects of the baseball of the 1990’s, which involves a lot of crowding the plate and trying to line the outside pitch into the opposite-field seats

Did He Like Power pitchers, or Did He Prefer to Go with the People Who Put the Ball In Play? He liked veteran pitchers who threw strikes. None of his teams ever led the league in strikeouts or walks allowed. Four of his teams led the league in fewest walks allowed.

Did he Stay With His Starters or Go To the Bullpen Quickly? He stayed with his starters. In 1979, for example, he used only 167 relievers in 159 games, the fewest of any team in baseball. The other American League teams averaged 219.

Did he used the Entire Staff, or did he Try to Get Five or Six People to Do Most of the Work? He always had a small staff and tried to get as many innings as he reasonably could out of his front four.

Was There Anything Unique About His Handling of His Pitchers? The most amazing thing about Earl Weaver’s record is his phenomenal ability to keep his starting pitchers healthy, while pitching them 260 innings a year.
His defense was outstanding; that reduced the pressure on his starting pitchers. Weaver believed in simplifying the work. He didn’t want pitchers out there trying to throw five or six pitches; he wanted to help them find their best stuff and use it.
He was religious about not pushing his pitchers to do too much early in the season. For many years the Baltimore Orioles were well stocked with pitchers who had good fastballs and absolutely refused to throw them to you. Weaver was able to get 270 innings a year out of Mike Cuellar , when all of his previous managers found that he would break down after 180.

What Were His Strongest Points As a Manager? Intelligence, intensity, patience. Understanding how an offense works.
Weaver managed within himself. Weaver believed if you understood and you respected the limitations of [an] athlete, then you could focus on the things that [he] could do.
Managers spend a lot of time talking about what a player can’t do, Weaver wasn’t interested in what a player couldn’t do. He was interested in what the player could do. If he can’t hit a breaking pitch, you don’t play him against Bert Blyleven. If he can’t run, you pinch-run for him – but you don’t let that stop you from developing what the player can do. It’s the things that players can do that will win games for you.

by yurizanow on Oct 18, 2009 2:08 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

One point

As much as you made about Earl’s brilliance in managing the roster after the introduction of the DH, he only won one playoff series after it was introduced – the 1979 ALCS. I’d argue he had more success before the DH was introduced.

"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK

by duck on Oct 18, 2009 8:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's Bill James, not me

I didn’t write anything other than the first paragraph in my second post.

What I would say in his defense is that the talent level he had to work with after 1971 was much lower than it was before. The 1969-1971 team routinely gets talked about as one of the greatest baseball teams of all time, so saying “well, he was a lot more successful before the DH” might not be the fairest thing on earth. The 1973 team, for example, was filled with mostly aging players who were not as good as they used to be and newer players who weren’t as good as the guys they replaced. The only positional improvement on that team was second base and catcher, but they still won 97 and led the league in pitching with only 12 different pitchers (holy shit!). Also, it’s not exactly shameful to lose to an A’s team that went on to win three World Series in a row. I think the fact that Weaver helped keep the O’s in contention year after year without the kind of star position players he had before speaks volumes for him. Moneyball makes a big deal out of the A’s replacing Jason Giambi with Scott Hatteburg and some other spare parts players, that was Oriole baseball for most of the 1970’s.

by yurizanow on Oct 18, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK, as much as Bill James made about Earl's brilliance in managing the roster...

"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK

by duck on Oct 18, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Man, you really want to teach us something....

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap."

by birdman on Oct 18, 2009 2:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think his best "law" is his last.

That the manager just doesn’t matter that much.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 18, 2009 3:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I would disagree with that

Laws three through six are substantially more important and ones where the manager can make a difference.

by yurizanow on Oct 18, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah 5 and 6 are my two favorites

They back up my complete loathing for bunts, along with 4.

Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts

by Stacey on Oct 18, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh

Ones where the manager can make a difference once in a while IF the players execute and put him in a position to matter. Talking about a handful of games throughout the course of a season.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 18, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good habits breed good results

I get the impression that you’re fairly dismissive of Weaver, which I think is a serious mistake. The Orioles have never been as good in your lifetime as they were while he was manager. If you have 15 straight years of legitimate contention, especially with the talent he had available to him some of those years compared with his competition, then some of that has to be at least partially attributed to the guy who ran the show, and make no mistake that when it came to the product on the field Weaver did run the show. This guy was not some Art Howe that was a prop for the general manager.

The Orioles were unique in their time in that they had “the Oriole Way”. If you have a guy like Weaver implementing it by making sure that the players who are on the Orioles show plate discipline, play defense properly, preserve their outs, throw strikes, and avoid giving up walks, it has positive consequences and lets a thrifty, small-market team compete in a division with some big-money teams. Harry Dalton, Frank Cashen, and Hank Peters were legitimately great GMs, but Weaver was ultimately the guy who maintained the continuity on the Orioles during their heyday. Once he was gone and Harry Dalton was fired and replaced by an outsider, “the Oriole Way” was lost and it’s never really come back, which is a real shame. We’re all hoping that Andy MacPhail is a man with a plan that will lead the O’s back to success, well the irony is that they had a terrific plan that lasted a long time and probably would work just as well today.

by yurizanow on Oct 19, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good habbits breed good results? I think good players breed good results.

I’m not being dismissive of Earl Weaver, but like I said earlier, I think when a team is good people give the manager too much credit and when a team is bad they assign too much blame to the manager.

If you’re saying that he had some intangible skills (like Jeter? or Veritek?) that allowed him to win with subpar talent then I’ll just have to take your word for it, but I tend not to believe in intangibles too much.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 19, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've been meaning to re-read Weaver's book

as it’s been forever, but one thing that I remember from it is a story about fundamentals. Weaver said something about how everyone always talked about how all of his teams had good fundamentals, and that’s the trademark of the team. He agreed with that, but he said that it was really less of a team practicing, practicing, practicing and more of just having good players to start with. He told a story about Mark Belanger making some play and everyone being like, “Look at those fundamentals, that’s just like an Earl Weaver team.” but Earl said, “Nobody could have made that play but Mark Belanger. He has good fundamentals because he’s a good player.”

I think that Earl would agree with you that people make too much of the manager. The fact that he knew that was part of what made him so amazing. In fact, if you look at a lot of his rules, they’re basically things that result from the manager staying out of the players way. When I think of Weaver the thing I most often think of is his line about the 27 outs being precious. Because he realized that he didn’t go out of his way to try and make things happened, and that combined with good players made him brilliant. That and using the stats to know when to play which players.

He couldn’t have made a subpar team good, and he would have been the first to tell you that. Look at the 1986 team for proof.

Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts

by Stacey on Oct 19, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He told a story about Mark Belanger making some play and everyone being like, "Look at those fundamentals, that’s just like an Earl Weaver team." but Earl said, "Nobody could have made that play but Mark Belanger. He has good fundamentals because he’s a good player."

I think that Earl would agree with you that people make too much of the manager.

Couldn’t agree more. Look, I love Earl,. Great manager. Waaaay ahead of his time. But he couldn’t prevent the 2009 O’s from producing a terrible season because they’re not a good team. And in fact, I’m not sure if he’s the right manager for a team trying to develop young players. For example, rule 8 doesn’t really fly with the current team. Not that I’m against breaking in young pitchers in long relief. The Twins often do this. But on a developing team, we should have Tillman, Matusz, 3E, and Arrieta learn in the rotation rather than pen.* And he’s always had a prickly, in your face personality which is fine for a contending team. But the current team needs someone who can be more nurturing. I’ve said this tons of times before, but I’m OK with Dave for now because he’s good with developing the confidence of the young guys. But he’s a horrible tactician for all of the reasons that Y points out. Once we start winning, Dave will need to go and we’ll need a Earl Weaver like manager at that point. Or we if want to find someone who’s good at developing young talent AND a good tactician now, that’s fine as well. But great tactical manager isn’t going to prevent another rough season.

  • It might be a good idea start off some of the young guys in the pen next year in order to manage their innings. I’m not sure why the Yanks didn’t do this with Joba this year in order to prevent the mess they created with him down the stretch.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap."

by birdman on Oct 19, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but if you read the James quote above

You realize that one of the reasons those players succeeded was because Earl put them in the right place to start with. His nearly obsessive platooning allowed guys who normally wouldn’t have seen regular major league time to play at a time and in a way that suited their strength.

Yes, some of his teams just flat out had better talent than anyone else (I’m looking at 1969/1970) but especially on some of those later teams he made a tangible difference. I don’t think there’s anything intangible about it.

"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008

Adam Jones is the tits.

by KenDixonFanClub on Oct 19, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can you provide examples of the tangible differences he made? Who did he platoon that performed better for him than for other managers?

by O'sFan21 on Oct 19, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The famous example

Probably the best-known platooning job Weaver did was at the end of his career when he didn’t have a left-fielder. He did have John Lowenstein, a left-handed schlub who played on the Indians for most of his career and had literally no ability to hit left-handed pitching and Gary Roenicke, a right-handed hitter with no ability to hit right-handed hitting.

Both of those guys were pretty limited players, but Weaver successfully platooned them for about 4 years, with the apex being 1982 when Lowenstein hit .320/.415/.602 with 24 home runs and Roenicke hitting .270/.392/.499 with 21 home runs making them the . The two of them split left-field duties on the 1983 team that won the World Series, but Roenicke became increasingly less effective and Lowenstein retired after 1985. Lowenstein did pretty much nothing to distinguish himself prior to playing on the Orioles and Roenicke never played quite as well as he did those four years under Weaver.

I want to be clear. Weaver didn’t “make” them play better by teaching them how to hit or inspiring them or anything like that. He just figured out what they could do and put them in a position where they could effectively do it. Lots of managers would’ve either discarded them altogether or tried to used them in roles that ill-suited them with less desirable results.

by yurizanow on Oct 19, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I meant to type

making them the best-hitting position on the team.

by yurizanow on Oct 19, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here are some others

These are cribbed from these links:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/great-platoons-1966-1978/
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/great-platoons-1979-1989/

In addition to the Lowenstein-Roenicke left field, they also mention the catcher platoon from 1968-1971 and 1980 and left field-right field platoon in 1973 as examples of great platoons.

What Weaver mostly did combine offensively limited but defensively gifted players with defensively limited pinch-hitters who had one or two things they did well offensively. Once again, he didn’t make them play better or use strategy to outwit his opponents, he just used the guys he had on his roster in the most effective manner possible.

by yurizanow on Oct 19, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a very useful ability.

I just don’t know how much was really him versus just having the guys on his roster and making the logical decision to platoon them. Would another manager NOT have done that?

by O'sFan21 on Oct 19, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't have a dog in this fight...

sorry Vick…but that’s what it seems like they are arguing…that in fact other managers did NOT do this at that time. Which is what made Earl unique.

Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt

by BPinOK on Oct 19, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that in fact other managers did NOT do this at that time. Which is what made Earl unique.

Yeah, I that’s Y’s point although I’m not sure how much platooning went on during the late 1970s and 1980s. May be it was something that Earl invented and popularized like how LaRussa popularized specialized bullpens. Today, of course, platooning is pretty common.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap."

by birdman on Oct 19, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Platooning was around, but Weaver was it's biggest proponent in the 1970's

The king of all platooners before Weaver was Casey Stengel. It was done off and on before him.

by yurizanow on Oct 19, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

platooning?

I thought platooning was really common throughout the sixties and seventies? I would think what made Earl unique was his aversion to putting runners in motion and playing small ball. I could be totally wrong tho…

Librarians are hiding something

by dfa on Oct 19, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's get to the heart of the matter

From the time that they moved from St. Louis in 1954 until 1985 they had only seven losing seasons and enjoyed a string of 18 straight winning seasons from 1968 to 1985. Since 1985 they’ve had only five winning season. Why is that?

Whether you mean to or not, you sort of come across as dismissive of both their past success and current failure as if it’s all a result of random chance, which I don’t think it is. The Orioles really were a remarkable franchise back then in that they were a low payroll, small market team with high turnover competing in a division league with other big-money teams while still managing to compete year in and year out.

Personally, I don’t think Earl Weaver is the reason for their success, but I think he’s a product of their success. You say you aren’t convinced that other managers weren’t any different than Weaver was during his era or wouldn’t have done the same with those players. Just on the former point, you have any examples of ones who were? I can’t come up with any.

by yurizanow on Oct 19, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huhhh????

I’m not dismissive of ANY of the results of the team. What I am dismissive of is that any manager has ALL THAT MUCH to do with it as opposed to having good players.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 19, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also where did the O's rank in payroll those years?

Previously I was able to find historical payroll rankings, but can’t seem to find the site again right now.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 19, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure either

I read a story a few years that Jerry Hoffberger expected them to win on a limited payroll and that he wasn’t willing to for over big bucks when free agency came around.

by yurizanow on Oct 19, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I found this

1976 – 13th
1977 – 13th
1978 – 17th
1979 – 15th
1980 – 19th
1981 – 7th
1982 – 13th
1983 – 11th
1984 – 13th
1985 – 4th

That’s an awful lot of victories for not a ton of dough. The Yankees and Red Sox outspent them almost every year during that span.

Edward Bennett Williams bought the team in 1979, which probably accounts for their two top ten finishes, since he was richer than shit.

http://www.baseballchronology.com/Baseball/Teams/Background/Payroll/default.asp

by yurizanow on Oct 20, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

It is impressive. Just still don’t think it’s all that attributable to the manager.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 20, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How about "overall philosophy" of which the manager was an embodiment?

Does that work for you?

Just to figure out where you’re coming from, when you say the manager makes no difference, does that mean that you don’t think that doing things like preserving your outs, playing for big innings, etc. makes a difference? For example, do you think that some guy could’ve come along bunted and hit and run his way to the same record with the same players?

by yurizanow on Oct 20, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

EVERYBODY wants to preserve outs and play for big innings. I don’t know where all this anger over “small ball” and the O’s comes from since THEY DON’T PLAY SMALL BALL. Almost nobody does anymore. It’s a matter of having the players on the field to ACTUALLY preserve outs and HAVE big innings rather than just having a philosophy that you’re going to aim for them.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 20, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If EVERYBODY

wants to preserve outs and play for big innings, then EVERYBODY learned from Earl Weaver, because they sure as hell didn’t do it then, and I would argue that the Os don’t do it now, and they certainly don’t pursue platooning with the vigor or acumen that Earl did. And since I’m starting to think you’re being deliberately obtuse, I’m not going to post in here anymore. You can keep arguing it out with whoever feels like it.

"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008

Adam Jones is the tits.

by KenDixonFanClub on Oct 20, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The O's don't do it now because they don't have the players to do it.

They had the least sacrifice bunts in the American League – how much less small ball do you want them to play?

No idea what you’re talking about as far as being obtuse. If you don’t think that everybody in the league wants to preserve outs I don’t know what to tell you.

Maybe they did all learn it from Earl – I have no knowledge of that, but regardless I stand by my opinion that the manager just doesn’t matter that much and you’re kidding yourself if you think that some modern-day Earl Weaver would make a winner out of the O’s in their current state. Players make winners.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 20, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By the way

I can’t stand these people who get into a debate/discussion and then get all high and mighty saying things like

I’m not going to post in here anymore. You can keep arguing it out with whoever feels like it
. It’s a fucking blog – people argue and have debates. Don’t post in the first place if that’s not your cup of tea, but don’t try to act all high and mighty like you’re too good for this when you’re already posting.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 20, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

prove it :)

Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt

by BPinOK on Oct 20, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's that in response to?

Hard to tell when there are so many comments.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 20, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everytime I update myself on this conversation you are using a different variation of “prove it” on something that obviously can’t be proven 100%. I found it funny. You like arguing, no doubt.

Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt

by BPinOK on Oct 20, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

He said there were tangible examples of differences that Weaver made, so I asked for the examples.

When else did I ask for proof about something?

by O'sFan21 on Oct 20, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh, i know

it’s not ALL the time. I quickly counted six different posts that alluded to you not believing something about the manager. I’m not saying you are wrong. Just making an observation.

Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt

by BPinOK on Oct 20, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ehh

I don’t know if I’d agree with that.

Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt

by BPinOK on Oct 20, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

What else are we arguing about if not whether a manager has much of an impact?

by O'sFan21 on Oct 20, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Weaver’s Eleventh Law: The key to conflict resolution is alcohol… preferably tequila.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap."

by birdman on Oct 20, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Best one yet!

I can deal with tequila.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 20, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'

Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt

by BPinOK on Oct 20, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

oops

I’m just messing around. Not to get all high and mighty but I gotta get some work done this last hour.

Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt

by BPinOK on Oct 20, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have you

tried that Wild Turkey Honey Whiskey? Shit is delicious. Maybe a little on the girly side, but whatever.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 20, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, hang on now

For half of Earl’s tenure, including the majority of his first-place teams, free-agency didn’t exist. So it’s not like in those years the Orioles were a “small market team with high turnover competing in a division league with other big-money teams”. Any turnover came from trades, which the club control over. And those 1970s teams had success precisely because they did not have high turnover, but had many players (brooks, dempsey, dauer, etc, etc) playing their positions for nearly a decade.

Once free agency was established, Earl’s teams started finishing in second place, usually behind the Yankees. The Yankees were not the ridiculous spenders they are now, but in the first few years of free agency, just as an example, they signed Catfish Hunter (the contract that started free-agency, and the highest ever contract of the time), Goose Gossage, Reggie Jackson, Tommy John, and Luis Tiant.

Earl’s methods worked because the playing field was level, and he could get Hank Bauer and Frank Cashen to draft and trade for the types of players he wanted. He didn’t have to worry about players leaving after five years to go get money stuffed down their pants by other teams.

I appreciate the Earl Love out there, and it’s well-founded. But there’s nothing to indicate that the Orioles would be more successful in the modern era with him as manager. It starts with the players, and if the Yankees had swooped down to steal Brooks or Palmer, Weaver would have finished out of the running more often than not.

"I think my motivation is to see the other guys in the clubhouse. They’re contending for the playoffs, and when I see that it gets into my body. I play like it’s the playoffs too" —Memlo

by zknower on Oct 20, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Platooning players is not all that uncommon today… particularly in the NL.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap."

by birdman on Oct 19, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

true

But with the advent of the multiple OOGYs courtesy of TLR, there are fewer and fewer opportunities to platoon…it’s odd that a manager would view a one out guy (however effective) more valuable than a guy who might have 200 at bats against lefties (or whatever).

Librarians are hiding something

by dfa on Oct 19, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm using one of these as my new sig

Ray Rice is so agile. He's a whole new breed for agile you need a new word to describe his agility... UBER-AGILITY!

by BaltimoreSportsFan on Oct 18, 2009 4:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i chose the first one

"No one's going to give a damn in July if you lost a game in March." Earl Weaver on Spring Training

by BaltimoreSportsFan on Oct 18, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the Orioles of the 1970's played under the playoff scheme today . . .

They would’ve been the Wild Card team in 1975, 1976, 1977, and 1980 and won the AL East in 1968 and 1982.

The 1981 strike season used a weird playoff format based on how teams finished in the part of the season before the strike and after the strike. Four teams went to the playoffs that year and although the Orioles weren’t one of then, they still finished with the third-best overall record in the American League.

by yurizanow on Oct 18, 2009 8:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

split seasons are weird

"No one's going to give a damn in July if you lost a game in March." Earl Weaver on Spring Training

by BaltimoreSportsFan on Oct 18, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn

there is really just nobody even close to Weaver managing the game anymore. And there never will be…

"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"

by Andrew @ TLC on Oct 19, 2009 10:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

there is really just nobody even close to Weaver managing the game anymore.

In terms of baseball philosophy? Yeah there is. All of SABER oriented teams like the Red Sox and A’s manage like the laws above. The one area where they might deviate a bit is rule 8.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap."

by birdman on Oct 19, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But its easy now

Weaver was all of that when it wasn’t accepted. He broke the mold with out of the box thinking. Francona, Geren, et al. aren’t changing the game – they’re mostly following orders from their front offices. And meanwhile you still have a billion managers who are stuck on such easy questions as “who should bat second”. I’m looking at you Torre, Hillman, Baker, Bochy, Gardenhire, Scoscia, and so on and so on.

"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"

by Andrew @ TLC on Oct 19, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, I said above Weaver was ahead of his time. I was just commenting on your remark about how there’s nobody managing like Weaver today when in fact there is. Maybe you mean that there’s nobody who’s breaking conventions today like Weaver did 25 years ago. That’s true.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap."

by birdman on Oct 19, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just think

when you consider the current way baseball is run and played today, you have to thank like 5 guys total:

Earl Weaver, Bill James, Branch Rickey, Curt Flood, and unfortunately George Steinbrenner

"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"

by Andrew @ TLC on Oct 19, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

My faves

These two laws should be put on a sign above the entrance to the home dugout:

Weaver’s Fourth Law: Your most precious possessions on offense are your twenty-seven outs

Weaver’s Fifth Law: If you play for one run, that’s all you’ll get

Another good law: championships are won in the off-season.

Librarians are hiding something

by dfa on Oct 19, 2009 5:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The SB Nation blog covering the Baltimore Orioles.

Please read our Community Guidelines
Start posting about the Orioles »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Which players have you met?
Small
Reunite the "Why Not?" Orioles on RBI Baseball 2
0207_large_small
Oriole Park Rated #1
Brad-bergesen_away_small
A Long-Term Deal for Dr. Jones?
Small
Project Prospect report on Josh Bell
Small
2010 CHONE projections for BAL Hitters
11405642_small
Trading for a True Ace?
11405642_small
Dan Uggla at 3B/DH
Ritm_small
Dr. Jones is a Gold Glover
Millardetydings_small
Way Nerdy Question

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS

GAMETHREAD SPONSOR

Masn_medium