Saturday Bird Droppings
O's give Trembley another season - baltimoresun.com
"The Orioles announced Friday night that they will pick up Trembley's option for the 2010 season, a surprising development that ends weeks of speculation that heightened with each Orioles loss." I'm sure there will be a difference of opinion on this. Feel free to use this space. - duck
Orioles batter Blue Jays, give Trembley added bonus - baltimoresun.com
"With the victory, the Orioles (62-98) need one more win in their final two games against Toronto to avoid the third 100-loss season in their history." Michael Aubrey had 6 RBI, Matt Wieters added a 3-run HR of his own, and except for a certain pitcher who shall not be named aside from Soccer Mom Butt, it was a good night all around. - duck
Orioles applaud Trembley news -- baltimoresun.com
"I like it. He has been put in a tough situation with injuries," right fielder Nick Markakis said of the decision to pick up Trembley's option. "This is the most young guys we have had come up at one time in a while. He has managed them well. Protected them well. Did his job. And next year, we will try to make the team better and go from there." I'm sure Dave thanks you for the vote of confidence, Nick, but if you ever write your autobiography, hire a ghost writer. - duck
Really cool promotions to close out 2009 - MASNsports.com
"The last series of the 2009 season is filled with promos and giveaways for fans who come out to the Yard for the last three games of O's baseball this weekend." Free tankards, random fans getting player uniform shirts, random fans take the field with an Orioles player for the National Anthem, and more cool stuff. - duck
Jim Johnson really, really needs to fix his fastball - MASNsports.com
"From Roch: "On this date, the Orioles can't count on him to close in 2010. He'll be in the mix if they don't sign or trade for a proven veteran, but he'll have a heavy responsibility no matter his role. And he'll need a fastball to match it." Yup, he sure will, Roch. He sure will. - duck
O's on Deck: O's minor leaguers in '09 -- Second basemen
"With (Ryan) Adams out of the picture, Tides second baseman Justin Turner earns the top spot in my rankings following his first year with the organization." - duck
Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against an Open Thread when death is on the line!
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108 comments
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Comments
trembley in 2010?!!
inconceiveable!
"you know what the orioles could use right now? a day off." - joe angel
by swilhelmross on Oct 3, 2009 8:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why did they give that guy an extension?
I’m sure there will be people on this site who line up to defend and make excuses for Dave Trembley, but I find it disturbing that the Orioles have chosen to keep a manager who led them to the second-worst record in baseball this year at least the third-worst season they’ve had as a franchise. The Orioles pathetic second-half performance and September finish makes it obvious to me that he doesn’t know what he’s doing and that his player don’t respond to him. Why they want to make someone so obviously incompetent their public face is beyond me.
This is the first thing Andy McPhail has done that give me a genuine reason to question the direction the Orioles are going in.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 8:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What players are supposed to be responding to him?
He’s had a AAAA lineup at best for the 2+ years he’s managed. The last month, I’d argue they’d have trouble winning games as the Norfolk Tides.
Andy said next year is based on wins and losses. If he doesn’t get it done then, Adios! But at least give the guy a MLB lineup to lose with before you fire him.
I’m off to a swim meet with my kid, so sorry to hit and run, but…
Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "
by duck on Oct 3, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, yeah, yeah
“It’s not his fault, he’s had injuries, his players are young, his players are bad, give him a chance next year . . .” Fill in the excuse blank with your favorite.
Whatever.
The Orioles have been making excuses for their poor performace and planning for next year this entire decade and in all likelihood be doing so for another decade.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Show me a manager that could have won with this lineup
And I swear, if you type JOHN GIBBONS!, I’ll ban you myself.
Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "
by duck on Oct 3, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Show me a manager that could have won with this bullpen
Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "
by duck on Oct 3, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trebmley is at least partially responsible for the bullpen
I acknowledge that the Orioles have lousy relief pitchers, but Trembley has not managed them in a way that is going to make anyone think he has a magic touch.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me the manager...
that could have done a better job with THIS bullpen:
34 Matt Albers
28 Danys Baez
25 Brian Bass
24 Alberto Castillo
27 Mark Hendrickson
43 Jim Johnson
26 Cla Meredith
37 Chris Ray
45 Dennis Sarfate
Tell me – WHO could have won with THAT crew?
Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "
by duck on Oct 3, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, I’m not a Trembely fan but this losing streak would have happened with Earl Weaver at the helm.
"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."
by birdman on Oct 3, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt taht
He would’ve probably gotten even these lousy players to play better. I don’t think Trembley does a very good job of motivating his players. He puts on this old-school hardass act, but I seems to be pretty indulgent with them.
Weaver was great at getting loser players to play well. See Steve Stone.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He would’ve probably gotten even these lousy players to play better.
It’ s hard to win with “lousy players”. If they’re lousy, I doubt they’ll play better because they are afterall lousy, which suggests the manager isn’t the problem.
"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."
by birdman on Oct 3, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weaver had a lot of lousy players that he figured out how to use
Steve Stone was one. So were a lot of guys on the ’79 team.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the differences in roster talent made it easier to “use” lousy players.
"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."
by birdman on Oct 3, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Eddie Murray and Ken Singleton certainly helped, but . . .
Weaver was good at figuring out what a guy could do and putting him in a position to do it.
I think Dave is poor at both of those things.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe… but do you really think this explains the massive losing slide? Sure, maybe Albers works best as a ROOGY or Hernandez as a reliever. There’s certainly merit in taking a player and then finding him the best role. But Dave really isn’t in a position to find out at this point. Somebody has to take up innings but because of the lack of talent, lousy players are taking roles that maybe they shouldn’t. That’s NOT the manager’s fault. Like I said, Earl Weaver couldn’t have stopped this losing streak.
"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."
by birdman on Oct 3, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's such a unusually long one . . .
that I’m hesitant to to give him some of the credit.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Random chance would would typically result in at least one win
I didn’t watch any of the games, but I have to admit, but when it goes on for that long I think it’s reasonable that the manager might’ve snatched defeat from the jaws of victory once or twice.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
might’ve snatched defeat from the jaws of victory once or twice.
So then the massive losing slide in Sept isn’t Dave’s fault then.
"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."
by birdman on Oct 3, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again, why do you stick up for the guy
You’re obviously a smart guy. Why do want to keep him around? Do you think there really is a happy ending to the Dave Trembley story on the Orioles?
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you have this righteous indignation is what I’m curious about. It’s like UNimagineable to you that a reasonable person could defend Trembley. And I don’t know if I’m really sticking up for the guy. I already said that I’m not a Trembley fan.
Why do want to keep him around?
I’m fine with his coming back next year. I’ve already this before but I’ll say it again. For a team that’s rebuilding, Trembley is fine. I heard this said about Ned Yost and I think the same thing applies to Trembley. Ned Yost was hired because the Brewers had a stacked farm system of future stars (e.g., Fielder, Hardy, Weeks, Braun, etc.) and the Brewers wanted someone could nurture that talent. But as soon as the Brewers started to win, Ned Yost simply wasn’t right man anymore. His strength was communicating with and motivating young talent, not in-game strategy or roster management. I think the same applies to Dave. He’s good guy to keep around for the young players. He know how to nurture their confidence and movitate them. But once the O’s start winning, he needs to go. That’s why I think the 1 year option is perfect. It’ll give the young guys another year of Trembley in another development year but no long term committment for presumably the winning years.
"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."
by birdman on Oct 3, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think there really is a happy ending to the Dave Trembley story on the Orioles?
Um no. What I think is similar to what I see in comments in 1 and 6 in the this link from BBTF upon Yost’s firing. I agree with number 6. As the needs of this team changes, so will the manager. I’ve quoted comment 6 because it’s good.
I remain baffled that such a large number of people can be so incredibly UNAWARE of something so OBVIOUS. That as a department, an organization evolves management must EVOLVE as well.
Bill James made this same point, talking about Billy Gardner and the Twins in one of the Abstracts (1986, obviously). When Gardner took over the Twins, they were in the dumper, trying to rebuild a team whose pitching staff had all gotten old at the same time, and whose hitting prospects hadn’t developed under Gene Mauch. Gardner took over for John Goryl with the Twins at 11-25, and they improved markedly in the second half of the season. In 1982, Gardner handed full-time jobs to Kent Hrbek and Gary Gaetti, moved prior ROY John Castino from 3B to 2B to make room for Gaetti, inserted 22-YOs Brad Havens and Frank Viola into the rotation, rode the storm for a year (60-102), and then saw improvement over the next three years. By 1984, the Twins spent 52 days in first place and finished second, three games behind the Royals (in a season that was in many ways similar to the Brewers’ 2007 campaign). The lineup was young, the rotation was young, and the Twins looked positioned to compete for a long time. Then came 1985. The Twins won their first two games, then lost nine in a row. They straightened out for about a month, got within a game of the top, then dropped 10 in a row and 19 of 25 before Gardner was fired, replaced by Ray Miller, whose primary advantage was that he wasn’t Billy Gardner.
James argued that once the Twins moved from developing team to contender, the needs of the team changed – and Gardner didn’t change with them. James wrote something about the way that Gardner handled Ron Davis, IIRC, vs what Miller did, and looking at Davis before and after there was a dramatic improvement in his performance.
"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."
by birdman on Oct 3, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, I'm not convinced that the O's view him as an interim manager
Given the recent history of the organization, I don’t think he’s there to develop the young talent of the Orioles, (which I don’t think he’s done a very good job of doing anyway), I think he’s there because he’s a reliable company man who has a bullshit act they like and does what he’s told. He’s basically the anti-Davey Johnson.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, I’m not convinced that the O’s view him as an interim manager
Well, I’m almost positive they don’t view him as an interim manager because it’s sort of degrading. I think the O’s view Dave as their manager for 2010 with 2011 and beyond up for grabs depending on the Ws.
I
don’t think he’s there to develop the young talent of the Orioles, (which I don’t think he’s done a very good job of doing anyway),
And I don’t know if he should be responsible for the development of the young players. He should be responsible motivating them and trying to put them in a position to succeed but if they suck, they suck, it’s not Dave’s fault, it’s the player’s fault. But luckily, we have some good developmental stories in terms of actual performance. Wieters made some strong improvements. Jones took a step forward. Tillman held his own until the his last start. Matusz did well for his first taste of the majors. Reimold and 3E did great jobs. There are some real positive stories in terms of the development of young talent.
I think he’s there because he’s a reliable company man who has a bullshit act they like and does what he’s told.
Shit, I hope he’s a damn company man! No organization wants a renegade who doesn’t listen.
"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."
by birdman on Oct 3, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Time will tell
I think that Dave Trembley will be an affirmative sign that the Orioles are a pathetic organization that rewards failure.
You think otherwise. There will be no way to resolve this anytime soon, so we’ll have to see how things play out next year.
My suspicion is that the Orioles will finish with a similar record next year, they’ll still keep Trembley, and people on Camden Chat will still be saying none of this is fault.
Since I like the Orioles and want them to win, I hope I’m wrong about everything.
by yurizanow on Oct 4, 2009 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Their September finish wasn't destiny
I bet lots of managers wouldn’t have done better than Trembley did during the last month. It’s actually pretty hard to lose or even threaten to lose 100 games. Trembley has managed to do it.
You act like there’s something normal about he kinds of finishes the Orioles have had over the past few years, like every team experiences it. That isn’t the case. They could do better. In fact, the end of the season is the time for lousy teams to do better since the better teams are typically phoning it in.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't realize
that teams in a pennant race phone it in.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Oct 3, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Rockies Called about Hendrickson Im pretty sure
For all the Orioles' prospect information and scouting, check out
www.oriolesprospects.com
by ravensfan3 on Oct 3, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there weren't many real pennant races
I agree with yuriza. trembley is a terrible manager and should not have been retained.
by pipkin on Oct 3, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With the rosters we've had
The results are far from unexpected. Ear Weaver was once asked how many games a manager won over the season. His answer? ZERO. Players win games.
Obviously, he was exaggerating. But managers are much likely to lose games than win them with their moves. I could count 6 games off the top of my head in the first half of 2007 before Brain Surgeon Sam got the ax that his actions would be the main cause for the loss.
I can’t count more than maybe two this year for Trembley. This team, as constituted, wasn’t going to win 70 games. The talent isn’t there. Yet.
Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "
by duck on Oct 3, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You say making excuses
but it’s pretty clear to me that “worthless manager” is just another excuse.
At this point the Orioles are a downright shitty organization from the top down and are trying to rebuild from the bottom up. Pulling out some guy in the middle of the ladder and replacing him with some clone is not going to make anything better. When there are players on the field who have a chance to actually be better than the players on the other team, then it is fair to place expectations on the manager to get the best he can out of them. Our players are not better than other teams’ players. Simple as that.
You said it yourself, poor performance and planning. What is Dave Trembley supposed to do about that?
by Steve. on Oct 3, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
For the 100th time
How do you expect a team to do when they lose their best starting pitcher, their 2nd best starting pitcher, their 4th best starting pitcher, their closer, their cleanup hitter, their 2nd hitter, their 5th hitter, and their now starting CF/2nd hitter? It’s really not that complicated.
Joe Torre could have managed this team and it wouldn’t have made a shit of difference in the 2nd half.
by O'sFan21 on Oct 4, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the first time that MacPhail has succumbed to the mentality that has dominated the Orioles of the last 12 years that there is value in keeping the familiar around regardless of obviously ineffective the familiar may be.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 8:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Please
If there is one thing the Orioles don’t do, it’s keep the manager around because he’s familiar. Mike Hargrove was here four years. Other than him, no manager has been here longer than three since Earl Weaver. Only Johnny Oates made it more than 2.5.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Oct 3, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
I dont know what team you’ve been watching, but keeping a manager around for more than 2 years is NOT typical Orioles.
by daveh873 on Oct 3, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And it’s not just the manager, it’s the whole damn organization. Although I’ll say things have been better recently. But constant changes in the GM position leads to constant changes in other parts of the organization. Keeping around familarity is hardly a trait of the O’s.
"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."
by birdman on Oct 3, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is a good day
the players are on notice
the manager is on notice
the free agents are on notice
mr. andy macphail just told MLB the Os are in business for business
i think 2010 is going to be fun
by thewaywardO on Oct 3, 2009 9:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OOOOOO! Everybody's On Notice!
Look out AL East! The Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays are shaking in their cleats.
The Orioles are a joke and everybody knows it.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough. maybe they should fire the manager every year and quit...
by thewaywardO on Oct 3, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What would be the downside of doing that
Routinely losing 90 games?
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah because firing out managers every 2 years has been helping us avoid that...
Seriously, you should try paying attention sometimes. It makes the game much more interesting!
by O'sFan21 on Oct 4, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also "on notice"
Grizzly bears
The Toronto Raptors
The British Empire
The black hole at the centre of the galaxy…
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Oct 3, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be Chris Ray
although he has actually slimmed down a bit since his injury. Maybe that’s his problem. Maybe all his talent was in his booty.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Oct 3, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My opinion and 50 cents....
Can get you a cup of coffee…. But I really wanted him outta there. He yanked our young guys every time they got in a jam and I can’t watch him truck out Albers in anymore one run ballgames. I know Torre has always had more talent but he coaches to win every single night. Whether it be pinch hitting three guys in a row that were supposed to be resting or bringing the very best out of his pen in close games. Captainhook doesn’t do that. There is a reason he was a career minor league rah rah coach.
by Wieters Wieners on Oct 3, 2009 10:08 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
See
I am torn between agreeing with all you just said (about Trembley’s questionable in-game decisions) but also knowing full well the lineup and bullpen he’s had to work with, especially after the injuries (and trades). In the end, I think this team needs consistency. Our players have been all over the damn place over the last several years, and the pieces are finally starting to fall into place… as long as the rebuilding is still in its crucial stages, I think it will help the team to have the same manager next year, rather than totally uproot Trembley and throw a new guy in.
by O Nina on Oct 3, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just throwing it out there
I don’t think all of yanking of young guys was necessarily his decision. I’m guessing he had pretty strict instructions what kind of kid gloves to use with them. And the fact that he brought in Albers a good chunk of the time…i mean it’s not like the bullpen was filled with better options…
by O'sFan21 on Oct 4, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UGH
Trembley again. That just really sucks.
And let’s be clear. The whole… team sucks so Trembley should get another chance is just silly. Just because many of the players on the team are bad doesn’t mean Trembley was good at his job.
He made a bunch of reactionary and boneheaded decisions, and does not appear to understand the tools that actually are in a baseball managers arsenal. Cesar Izturis second? Are you kidding. He was doing this long before we had a bunch of AAAA players starting every day. Hit and runs with slow players and other small-ball silliness. Sure the stuff isn’t that big of a deal, but it’s the tools that a manager has to improve or hurt his team tactically. Most decisions a manager makes are unimportant relevant to player quality. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to find a manager that makes the best decisions.
by math_geek on Oct 3, 2009 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I dunno....
Cesar and folks like him batting second meant that Weiters could bat 8th for most of the season.
I’d say that one has paid off pretty well.
"I think my motivation is to see the other guys in the clubhouse. They’re contending for the playoffs, and when I see that it gets into my body. I play like it’s the playoffs too" —Memlo
by zknower on Oct 3, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a quick question
Were did the FanPosts widget go?
Ray Rice is so agile. He's a whole new breed for agile you need a new word to describe his agility... UBER-AGILITY!
by BaltimoreSportsFan on Oct 3, 2009 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe you guys are standing up for Dave Trembley
I’m a Green Bay Packers fan (there was no football team when I was in Baltimore and my Dad is from Milwaukee) and I vividly remember what was like in the pre-Favre era. The Packers were the most pathetic franchise in the NFL, but the fans were always convinced that they were just a few years away from turning it around. Every loser coach deserved another year to turn it around. Every player that didn’t embarrass himself on Sunday was either one of the best players at his position or a future star. Needless to say, none of this panned out.
Just change the names and it’s the same with the 2009 Orioles. Rather Bart Starr or Forrest Gregg or Lindy Infante who deserves to show what he can do with a good team and no injuries, it’s Dave Trembley. Rather than Don Majkowski, Ken Ruettgers, and Brian Noble being players who will take them to the promised land, it’s Brian Roberts, Nick Markakis, and Adam Jones.
This team is lousy and will remain lousy. It’s bad enough that they’re in a division with the Yankees and the Red Sox, but they’re in a division with the Rays who are even younger than the Orioles. There are problems up and down the organization. Keeping Dave Trembley is just the most obvious manifestation.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 10:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who is standing up for Trembley?
Swilhelmross: “Inconceivable”
Wieters Wieners: “I really wanted him outta there”
math_geek: “Trembley again. That just really sucks”
The only argument that people are attempting to make to justify bringing him back is one that is true: THIS TEAM SUCKED! Call it an excuse if you will, but it is the flat out truth.
With that said, and with your opinion obviously stated, who would be the best candidate to replace Dave? I have no idea who we could get, but apparently you think it needs to be someone…so who?
by sickuvitall on Oct 3, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Find someone from a successful organization who has an impressive resume
Some loser who was a minor league manager for the Pirates and Orioles shouldn’t have been consideration to begin with.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
like someone who won multiple minor league manager of the year awards.
by kba26 on Oct 3, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has that unsuccessful organization problem
Do you want to hire a guy from the Royals? What if he has some manager of the year awards? Does that pique your interest?
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've got just the guy
He was a World Series MVP and led the AAA team of a current playoff team to the playoffs ands his players loved him.
Fits your criteria, right?
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you…
Ruck Dempsey.
Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "
by duck on Oct 3, 2009 12:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Rick Dempsey
I hate trying to reply on my phone…
And he did have a good records one year as the manager of the Dodgers AAA team.
Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "
by duck on Oct 3, 2009 12:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea about Rick Dempsey
What would happen if he were manager? The Orioles would finish with (at least) their third-worst record ever. How low to they have to sink before they’re allowed to change their precious manager?
Also, explain to me again why you think they should keep him around. You know he does stupid shit that makes it less likely they’ll win even with the limited talent they have. What is so important about having him at the helm? Since when continuity in the manager’s seat a virtue in itself? Earl Weaver, Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, Casey Stengle, Joe McCarthy, Walter Alston, etc. all worked out because their teams won. There are plenty of teams that did OK with a quick hook to serve as counter-examples. I can’t think of any teams that were rewarded by sticking with an unsuccessful (and I mean really unsuccessful) manager.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude.
It’s not about why it’s “so important to keep him around” because quite frankly we don’t really know whether he’s a good manager. The point is that bringing a new manager in is NOT going to solve our problems, so what’s the point? It would just be another discontinuity for a team that has had almost no continuity at all for the last 12 years.
What exactly do you think would happen if the O’s fired Trembley and brought in the Joe Torre?
by O'sFan21 on Oct 4, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Diamond Dave
A few random thoughts. Having a managerial revolving door is more of an indictment of team management than it is of the managers chosen and fired. It means that management, given 7 tries could not pick a competent man.
A base ball manager is relatively insignificant in comparison with a football head coach. In football, there are so many more strategy options. Weaver was good because he insisted that the players learn and practice the fundamentals. He was also tough and controlled the team. That is about all one can expect of a manager.
Trembley is pathetic at interviews. He is boring, inarticulate, and never strays from the obvious. But, this good. He does not have a big ego or the need to be the center of attention. He realizes that interviews can only backfire on him, so he says as little as possible. A sign of maturity.
I was disappointed by the police officer’s comment in the Sun. He gert to the park early, and he said that the team is lazy and listless during practice. If this is true, DD is letting down in one area he can control. A manager should plan up tempo and efficient practices. I suspect that AF would have noticed if the practices were humdrum, however.
The key to next year is Guthrie. If he can rebound, we will have 4 solid startersj 5 if one of Arietta, Patton, Erbe or Britton is readym
In the meantime, root for the Bucs.
by BaltoBen on Oct 3, 2009 11:35 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
"The key to next year is Guthrie"
That may be the most depressing sentence I’ve read all season.
About Trembley, I wanted him gone and I’ll happily admit I was wrong if he can do anything next season. But based on his CAREER, not just this season, he is not a winner. Outside of one or two seasons in the minor leagues, his teams have routinely finished out of the running.
I don’t want to get all ballistic about it, but it just seems to me that the MESSAGE the rehiring of Trembley sends (whether it’s valid or not) is: We reward failure.
by Fred Sanford on Oct 3, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is such a tired argument
they’re not rewarding failure, because trembley DIDN’T FAIL.
he was told to develop the young kids this year. in case you hadn’t notice, that’s been a smashing success. the team failed, mainly because the team had no pitching.
the message of rehiring Trembley is: “we’re not impatient idiots who say a year is a rebuilding year and then somehow act like it wasn’t. We have a plan and we’re sticking to it instead of going out and cherrypicking sammy sosa and the like.”
"I think my motivation is to see the other guys in the clubhouse. They’re contending for the playoffs, and when I see that it gets into my body. I play like it’s the playoffs too" —Memlo
by zknower on Oct 3, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did fail
I’m sorry Z, but I don’t see a smashing success developing any young kids. I see a bunch of mediocre players middling along with one or two of them actually regressing.
The message I take from the rehiring of Trembley is, “Failure will be tolerated as long as we like and are comfortable with the guy. The most pathetic finish by an Orioles team in recent memory will be excused as long as the manager is a good company man.”
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't see a smashing success in developing youn kids???? You need to watch more closely.
Reimold had an incredible season. Wieters had an incredible season. Matusz had an incredible season. Pie turned his season around.
Seriously dude, pay a little attention. I understand that you don’t like the guy and that’s fine. I’ve said many times (often loudly and with lots of obscenities for emphasis) that he’s is strategically incompetent, but the truth is managerial strategy just doesn’t matter that much. If you don’t think the O’s as a whole have done a good job developing their young talent this year you are either crazy or just haven’t watched much of the season.
by O'sFan21 on Oct 4, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From the "tanned, rested & ready" dept.
How about Tom Kelly? As long as Pimlico is nearby I’m sure he’ll be happy.
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Oct 3, 2009 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pickles or bust! See some of you there!
Cry havoc and unleash the Esskay hot dogs of war! - The Wayward Oriole, Opening Day 2008
by Eat More Esskay on Oct 3, 2009 2:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
::jealous::
"I think my motivation is to see the other guys in the clubhouse. They’re contending for the playoffs, and when I see that it gets into my body. I play like it’s the playoffs too" —Memlo
by zknower on Oct 3, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What exactly is the downside of being impatient with a manager?
Off the top of my head, I can’t think of any baseball teams that really would’ve accomplished something if they just would’ve been more patient with the manager.
Between 1947 and 1955 the Dodgers won five pennants with three different managers.
Teams that have won 100 games have fired managers like Whitey Herzog and Danny Ozark and lived to tell about. Getting rid of a guy like Trembley who is a bad manager in a ton of demonstrable ways shouldn’t be a hard call. You guys are clinging to him like he’s some precious jewel. This baffles me and makes me vaguely sad.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 2:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Apples and mangos
Those were division or pennant winning teams that just needed a little tweaking & fine tuning. And in the cases of Walt Alston in ’55, Dallas Green in ’80 & Dick Howser in ’85, those moves all worked.
Do you see any similarities between the Os at the present time & those teams on the verge of championships? Neither do I.
Now if you want to say they need a whole new everything, including the manager, that’s one thing. But let’s not pretend we’re looking at anything other than a (close to) 100 loss team here, no matter who the manager is.
Personally I think when a team out of contention death spirals into 100 loss territory, that’s generally a character flaw on the part of the players (except in the case of the Mets & their never ending injured list) rather than a reflection on the manager.
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Oct 3, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he doesn't know what he's doing!
That’s what drives me nuts about guys. He hit and runs and bunts and his pitching moves always fail and his players play stupid. These are all things that get better managers than him fired.
If the problem is a character flaw on the part of the players, that’s Dave Trembley’s fault! He’s their manager! That precisely the sort of thing he’s supposed to be worrying about.
Mike Hargrove really had no talent and despite a horrible season in 2001 (which Trembley will be lucky to match) they inched slightly better each year until he was fired. In his two and a half years the O’s have gotten worse and it’s always some reason other than his incompetence. What happens next year when they lose 105 games? Can they fire him then or, once again, would no manager been able to do better?
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 3:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fuck off, already.
"I hate making excuses. If I suck, then I suck. And I suck. That's the way I'm playing. If you suck, you suck. You have to take responsibility in this game. Right now, that's the way I feel. Yes, I suck." - Jose Guillen/quote of the year
by getxstoked on Oct 3, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jeez, someone is touchy
I’m sorry I was so mean to your favorite manager is the whole wide world.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're a fucking broken record.
You’re exactly like the fucking idiots on Roch’s blog that bitch endlessly about every goddamn thing.
"I hate making excuses. If I suck, then I suck. And I suck. That's the way I'm playing. If you suck, you suck. You have to take responsibility in this game. Right now, that's the way I feel. Yes, I suck." - Jose Guillen/quote of the year
by getxstoked on Oct 3, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever
Stick up for a guy who obviously is terrible for his job and call me an idiot.
Sorry I offended you and your love for Dave Trembley – Super Winner #1!
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why the fuck is it “sticking up” for Trembley if you disagree with your opinion that he should be fired? I really don’t give a shit about Trembley at all, but I fail to see how firing him makes this organizaion any better.
by O'sFan21 on Oct 4, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duck? May I borrow?
“The reply button is your friend.”
Seriously though, I think with some better players entering the lineup and the corresponding removal of dead wood there must be a noticeable improvement in hitting next year.
The pitching, if MacPhail’s “grow your own” philosophy is still being applied, will take a little longer
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Oct 3, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But when is it OK for him to be fired?
It seems like you’re saying that if a team is bad enough it’s not the manager’s fault.
When does it become the manager’s fault? If the manager does dumb stuff that doesn’t help a team win, when can he be held accountable?
We had this same discussion last year. Everybody was like “it’s not his fault, the players were really bad, give him a chance” and the Orioles got worse. If they play badly next year, why won’t be appropriate to say that all over again? There is some point it will be appropriate to get rid of him, right?
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have you watched a game this year, I mean, honestly?
The team has lost 3/4 of their opening day outfield, played a month and a half with Robert Andino has the staring SS, played a Zaun/Moeller platoon for two months, had 4 rookies in the rotation, lost the best them in August, dealt away their first baseman/clean-up hitter, the closer, a decent spare part in Salazar…god damn, right now their essentially the Norfolk Tides featuring Nick Markakis and Brian Roberts.
"I hate making excuses. If I suck, then I suck. And I suck. That's the way I'm playing. If you suck, you suck. You have to take responsibility in this game. Right now, that's the way I feel. Yes, I suck." - Jose Guillen/quote of the year
by getxstoked on Oct 3, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those players weren't good enough that losing them is an excuse
How is playing anybody other than Caesar Izturis an excuse for losing more games? Or Felix Pie? Or even (this year) Adam Jones? it’s not like he had the best season ever before he got injured.
What about all the other stuff? The hit and runs, the bunting, the sloppy play, the poor handling of the pitching staff. Does that sit well with you? Are you one of those guys who thinks that “real fans” (a.k.a. real suckers) never say anything critical about their team no matter what?
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
You’re exactly like this winner.
"I hate making excuses. If I suck, then I suck. And I suck. That's the way I'm playing. If you suck, you suck. You have to take responsibility in this game. Right now, that's the way I feel. Yes, I suck." - Jose Guillen/quote of the year
by getxstoked on Oct 3, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not wasting my time reading an entire thread from some other Orioles website
If you have some point to make, paraphrase it.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well there is no scientific formula to apply
Sometimes it depends on who’s available.
Let’s say, let’s just say, that the Yankees lose in the 1st round on a freak play, and despite Prince Hal’s assurances Girardi is suddenly out of work. In that case Trembley will start to look a bit more expendable.
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Oct 3, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So ostensibly they could lose 100 games routinely and it wouldn't be his fault?
After all, if they were doing that it would be because the players are lousy, not because of him, thus keeping him around would be a wise move to maintain continuity.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're being intentionally dense
or you’re a buffoon, I’m not sure which.
"I hate making excuses. If I suck, then I suck. And I suck. That's the way I'm playing. If you suck, you suck. You have to take responsibility in this game. Right now, that's the way I feel. Yes, I suck." - Jose Guillen/quote of the year
by getxstoked on Oct 3, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You root for the worst team in the American League
By far, if the Pirates didn’t exist the Orioles would be on the top of the list for the worst franchise in baseball and this is their worst season yet. Nonetheless, you seem to think everything is A-OK and if you criticize the team you’re a buffoon.
I’m sorry my friend, I think that to most people I would not look stupid compared to you.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is so fucking stupid.
Do you understand the concept of rebuilding?
Did you notice any of the players they went without the 2nd half of the year? I’ve listed it for you a dozen fucking times so I’m not doing it again.
And I don’t know what most people you’re referring to, but you look fucking stupid to me based on this absurd argument.
by O'sFan21 on Oct 4, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then obviously, it would be time to look to the FO
The Jays, after far too long, finally got rid of Richardi.
Because as Casey said of his ‘62 Mets (40-120), "Couldn’t have done it without my players."
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Oct 3, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But keeping the manager is OK under those circumstances?
I mean, you can see why I think this is weird, right?
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I say, it DEPENDS
In the case of Toronto, based on track record from ‘89-’96, I think Gaston should stay. Unless, of course, they bring back JOHN GIBBONS!
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Oct 3, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NOW WE'RE TALKING!
That’s the real tragedy of keeping Trembley. You know someone will snap up John Gibbons before the Orioles get a chance.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, don't know what to make of this one
If you’re being facetious about Gibbons, as I was, that’s fine.
If not, then this thread has officially gone down the rabbit hole & through the looking glass.
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Oct 3, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I was being facetious
Although I don’t think he’s any worse a manager than Dave Trembley.
I loved that thread and I want it to come back.
by yurizanow on Oct 3, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well if nothing else
we’ve had some, eh, how shall I say, “interesting” new posters this season as a distraction from all the crappy baseball.
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Oct 3, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Hargrove really had no talent and despite a horrible season in 2001 (which Trembley will be lucky to match) they inched slightly better each year until he was fired.
Not a comparable situation. The AL East of the late 1990s, early 2000s isn’t the same AL East of the late 2000s.
"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."
by birdman on Oct 3, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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