Dan Uggla at 3B/DH
by Dr Orpheus on Nov 11, 2009 8:35 PM EST
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PrintRumors abound that our beloved Orioles are one of two teams, the Giants being the other, expressly interested in trading for slugging second baseman Dan Uggla. In the immortal words of Kent Brockman, "I for one think it's about f-ing time."
After multiple fanposts pondering the hole in our hearts and at third left by Sir Buntsalot, this kind of a trade might actually be too on-the-nose. I mean, the Orioles are looking for a right-handed power bat to slot in behind Nick Markakis AND a third baseman to take over until Josh Bell, power-hitting prospect, tears Triple-A apart. At which point Bell would take over at third and Uggla would be moved over to first or a DH role where his defense wouldn't be a downfall.
This would also quell complaints about Ty Wigginton's own defensive inabilities (although I wonder who would be worse Uggla or Wigginton) and bat and would free up Luke Scott as a trade deadline candidate given the hole at first is filled by one of three candidates.
A blog post from Roch reports that the Marlins would only want a second-tier pitcher, maybe not necessarily someone in the majors, for Uggla. I could shower the names of pitchers that might be included in such a trade but "second-tier pitcher' seems vague. We know that Jake Arrieta, Zack Britton, and Brandon Erbe would not be included in that their ceiling is that of a #3 or higher starter, but who else could be included?
Let's get the ball rolling on some armchair GMing. Who would you trade for Dan Uggla? Would you trade for Uggla at all or stay with in-house candidates for 3rd, 1st, and DH? Commence pipedreaming!
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Would David Hernandez, Tony Butler, Chorye Spoone or Troy Patton for Uggla work?
Cause i’d be down even if we had to throw in Jason Berken
"I Can't Wait Until Tomorrow...'Cause I Get Better Looking Every Day" Joe Namath
What do you think
I am only now learning the new metrics. I know that Uggla’s BA is not great, but how does he rate in terms of OBP, SLG, and OPS. How good/bad are these.
243 .354 .459 .813
I'm not a stats guy
But I can tell you that Uggla hits the ball hard and far. One of his biggest problems, and this might be a copout, is playing in Miami. That ballpark is pretty vast. If he were in Camden Yards his homerun totals might be a slight boost (35 HR a year) and his average might improve from increased doubles.
Not to mention the help of Ol’ Crow.
Good, good, and good. Nothing spectacular.
But one needs only look a year earlier to see OBP of .360 and SLG of .514, which put his OPS some 60 points higher. Those are numbers you’re more likely to see playing at OPCY.
Which would be a definite plus for us. He’s like a poor man’s Adam Dunn – only he can actually play defense.
From the Land of Pleasant Living...
I'm all for it,
but if Boston wants him, he goes to them before our boys.
When you're born into the human race you're given a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you're given a front row seat. And some of us have notepads.-George Carlin
by Afghanistan Steve on Nov 12, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
Do it!
not much to add but am excited about getting a right-handed bat with power. I mean if his biggest criticism is his defense, try him at 3B and/or 1B with the comfort of knowing you have prospects behind him and he could always DH.
Dont do it.
He’s a good hitting 2B that can’t field, that will turn into an average hitting 3B who is a liability with a glove. He has no range. Let the Giants have him. If the PHN wants him, instruct the hitters to hit the ball to his side of the field.
Although if we could take the opportunity to pawn off someone like Bob McCrory, and then flip Uggla for a warm pitcher, then do it.
"I feel like I learned more in eight major league starts than I did in three years of college," -- Brian Matusz
huh…. your reasoning reminds me of the recently disposed O’s 3B. A man without a position (is he a SS, OF?) largely because of his defensive deficiences. O’s liked him ’cause he had potential to hit for average and thought he would be a super utility man. Tried him out at 3B his 3rd year with the team and he went on to nail down the position for the remaining 6 years. …
I’m just saying, if all Florida wants for Uggla is a second-tier pitching prospect, then why not? We have nothing to lose and already have a stock-pile of “top shelf” pitching prospects. A right handed batter with power will help this lineup more than hurt the team. If you’re concerned about his salary, look at it this way; he’ll cost the same as a Mora. Think Beltre will come here for that amount? no way.
I'm not worried about salary
since 1) it’s not my money, and 2) we’re very underspent. We can afford a Beltre or a Figgins financially. Contract length is another issue, since we only have need for 1-2 years. But if the player is still productive, there is always the trade market.
What I’m worried about are defensive outs. I don’t think Uggla can make the transition to 3B. LF, maybe, but we have no need there. And he’s not really a DH candidate since he’s streaky and not a premier hitter, just better than most middle infielders. So I don’t see him as a fit.
Yeah, the Angels did the same thing with Figgy that we did with Mora. Sometimes it works out, and that’s when you hear about it.
"I feel like I learned more in eight major league starts than I did in three years of college," -- Brian Matusz
Who really cares that much about his glove? He hits 30 hrs and 90 RBI every year in a crappy hitters park. Let him come to CY and hit 35 and 110 and bounce between 1st, 3rd, and DH. IF the price is right I could care less about his defense.
So let me see if I have this straight
Would you trade Markakis for Adam Dunn, playing RF? By your logic, there’s no way that 40 HR is not better than 20.
"I feel like I learned more in eight major league starts than I did in three years of college," -- Brian Matusz
So defense does make a difference.
A substantial one, even.
I really think Uggla would be that much of a disaster at 3B. 3B is hard. It requires better reflexes than 2B, and a better arm.
Also, switching positions is going to take focus away from hitting. If he starts having trouble with the pitching quality the Os have to face, it might become a disaster.
"I feel like I learned more in eight major league starts than I did in three years of college," -- Brian Matusz
markakis for adam dunn was an awful example to get across your point
i could put a cardboard box in RF and it would play better defense than adam dunn. wouldn’t hit any homers tho. who wins that battle? dunn or cardboard box?
by twistedlogic on Nov 14, 2009 8:52 AM EST up reply actions
I think it's a good example
Adam Dunn’s offensive game blew Nick Markakis out of the water in 2009, but thanks to defense Nick Markakis’ WAR was 2.2 vs Dunn’s 1.2
Sure Dan Uggla will provide value with his bat, that much is certain. But as bad as he is at 2B he’s pretty much guaranteed to be much worse at 3B. I’m not saying I want the O’s to sign Beltre, but I honestly think that his defense would be so heads and shoulders above Uggla’s that he’d probably be just as valuable, if not more.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
The reason I like Uggla over Beltre
is because once Bell comes up (assuming he suceeds), Uggla is a valuable piece to slot in as a DH, while Beltre would really just be trade bait at that point, and wouldnt really bring back anything special at that.
Well once we sign Jim Thome there won't be any place to put him.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
No prob
I forgive you. It’s not like you called Poz a hack or anything.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
So why don't you MARRY him already?????
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
i'd rather have the cardboard box
much cheaper
by twistedlogic on Nov 14, 2009 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Remind me again why an over-the-hill, way past his prime, receding power, over-priced player is better for the lineup then a guy who’s younger, cheaper, and had better stats than Thome for the past 4 years is a bad idea?
There are plenty of reasons to prefer Uggla over Thome
But to suggest that Dan Uggla has had better stats than Jim Thome over the past four years absurd.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
I see yours and coach’s point, but I think you both are forgetting something pretty key. While comparing Dunn (an offensive RF) to the current O’s RF makes a good argument, we’re talking about Uggla (an offensive infielder) compared to the current O’s 3B – oh yeah, we don’t have one.
Sorry Stacey, your argument then went out the window for me when you said, “But as bad as he is at 2B he’s pretty much guaranteed to be much worse at 3B.” Really?!!? How can you guarantee that? Do you have factual back-up to prove such a statement? Look at Mora, a weak defensive SS that was moved to the OF because of his weak defensive prowless. Then, 3 years later, nailed down the 3B job and his defensive skills improved (surprising too since he was bad at SS).
For me, the difference between Uggla and all the other names thrown around that are available (Beltre, Feliz, Blalock, etc, excluding the Angles 3B who will re-sign) is;
1) Uggla is younger than all the other names.
2) Uggla is FAR more consistent in offensive production – impressive, power too at such a canyon for a home park. Sorry guys, Beltre had 1 good year. His asset is his defense. Once Bell arrives, why do we have Beltre?
3) If and when Bell is ready to assume the position (as early as mid-season), Uggla can still play 1B/DH and/or help give BRob a night off once a month. Can only say the same for Blalock.
4) He won’t cost as much and will be under O’s control for a few years.
5) Did i mention to trade for him takes NOTHING away from the core of opur farm system?
To be honest, i’m most surprised that there are so many objections to such a move. What do the O’s have to lose?
Regarding Mora moving from SS to 3B
3B is a dramatically easier position to play than SS and it’s not dramatically easier to play than 2B. So really they are not in the least bit related.
i dont know about SS being that much tougher
you’ve got to cover more ground, but what about reaction time! 3B aint called the hot corner for nothing, its pretty damn tough, guys like zimmerman and inge make those charging slow roller plays look routine, they’re not.
lets just say that 3b is dramatically easier than 2b, and yes i’ll agree with stacey that if someone sucks at 2b, it is pretty much a lock that they will suck at 3b.
Jbella still has time to improve his glove though
"you know what the orioles could use right now? a day off." - joe angel
by swilhelmross on Nov 15, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Are you serious?
3B is where shortstops go when they get fat or their legs stop working. It’s a knock it down and throw it to first position. Range is dramatically less important and you’re involved in much fewer plays. SS is an objectively more difficult position.
And just to be clear, 3B is called the hot corner because the ball is hit very hard at you, not because it’s particularly difficult. Everybody in the majors who plays infield has reaction time.
what about ty wigginton? i doubt he has reaction time unless it involves consuming a sandwich....
just to be clear…it DOES help to have range at third. scott rolen and ryan zimmerman are great examples of that. however, i do agree with you for the most part
by twistedlogic on Nov 15, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions
Well yeah
I was exagerating, but the range required for 3B is not even close to that required for SS.
yes i'm serious
and thanks for clearing up that mess about why its called the hot corner for me…
sure you need more range to play short, but all i said was that 3b is not THAT much easier than SS, and 2b is an obvious joke compared to 3rd in terms of difficulty IMO.
"you know what the orioles could use right now? a day off." - joe angel
by swilhelmross on Nov 16, 2009 3:03 AM EST up reply actions
Completely disagree. I think 3B is THAT much easier than SS and 2B is much harder than 3B to play.
Bill James agrees with me as he ranks the difficulty of positions as follows (excluding catcher):
DH—1B—LF—RF—3B—CF—2B—SS
3B is NOT difficult position.
Oh, OsFan21.
Wish you could have explained this to my HS softball team. I played second base and wish I could have gotten a little more RESPECT (thanks, Melmo) from my teammates of that time.
haha
Well I’m not sure that spectrum translates over to softball quite as nicely since in my co-ed leagues all the teams put a girl at 2B…
apparently, they should have put a girl at 1b….or something. not that i’m sayin that girls cant play defense or anything.
by twistedlogic on Nov 16, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
Psssaahhhh
Girls/Ladies can play defense. I had/have reflexes LIKE A FOX. As far as co-ed leagues and my crappy HS league, I think, maybe, it’s just that there are fewer lefties and ergo, fewer sharp balls hit to the 2B. Not that I wasn’t an awesome infielder, because I WAS INDEED, but yeah… SS > 2B > 3B is all I’m sayin’.
LIKE A FOX!!
When I played co-ed softball with my old job they put me at first base and then the guys complained that I was TOO SHORT to throw the ball to. Meanwhile they were throwing the ball so high you’d have to been Gheorghe Muresan to get to what they were throwing, but no, blame the short girl. It’s not like I’m a midget!
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
We have Ty WIgginton
which is why the interest in Uggla, who is not a 3B, but people seem to think he could be.
Maybe FLA moved him from 3B to 2B because he would have been blocked by Cabrera, but if you look at the small amount of fielding data for Uggla at 3B, it’s really bad.
"I feel like I learned more in eight major league starts than I did in three years of college," -- Brian Matusz
Maybe I'm exaggerating with the fact that he'll be worse
But he is NOT a good second baseman defensively, so there is no reason to believe he’d be good at third base.
Look, I don’t hate the move, I just worry about the defense. I’ve seen enough outs given away by the Orioles over the past 12 years.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
and if he fails at 3B, would you be okay with him at DH / 1B? I understand, especially with a young pitching core, how much defense is important. In the end though, I believe he will be a solid addition and an asset that fills a void on the roster (RH power).
IMO, a team that hasn’t finished above .500 in almost a decade and is still a year or two away from competing should be rolling the dice on exactly this type of move. What do we have to lose? Sure it may hurt defensively, but we haven’t even given him a chance. To me, the positives outweigh the negatives and that makes it worth it to me.
I don't understand why he would necessarily be worse at 3B...
I know there’s a learning curve, but 2B is considered a premium defensive position, and 3B is lower down the defensive spectrum. I just think it isn’t correct to say he’ll be much worse at 3B than at 2B.
Also,
http://marlinmaniac.com/2009/11/16/using-the-fsr-to-move-uggla/
Maybe
I was shooting for overkill. But Stacey gets my point. I think discounting defense is bad..
Also, I say we get Dunn in 2011. But not in RF. Or anything with a glove that is not a batting glove.
"I feel like I learned more in eight major league starts than I did in three years of college," -- Brian Matusz
by CoachOfEarl on Nov 14, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
uhhhhh
You’re talking about trading an established major league player for another. I NEVER suggested giving up anything close to an established major leaguer or even substantial prospects for Uggla. I said specifically IF the price is right I’d like to see his bat in the lineup.
So I have no fucking clue where you came up with this absurd comparison of trading arguably our best player for Adam Dunn…
well
What I wasn’t proposing an actual trade, but a virtual lineup change. I should have been clearer there. Basically, what I wanted to know was would you rather have Dunn or Markakis in the lineup and in the field.
"I feel like I learned more in eight major league starts than I did in three years of college," -- Brian Matusz
He was reacting
to you saying that you don’t care about his defense as long as he hits 30 HR. It’s not a hard concept.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Nov 15, 2009 8:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So what the hell does that have to do with trading Markakis for Dunn??
I don’t care about Uggla’s defense, because our alternatives at 3B are not particularly attractive either, so if you’re going to have either a mediocre fielder/mediocre hitter, or a good fielder/mediocre hitter, or Uggla who’s a good hitter/poor fielder, I’d prefer Uggla. As I’ve said about 6 times if he’s a total butcher over there just stick him at DH – we play in the AL afterall.
Huh?
Why would the Marlins only want a 2nd tier pitcher for a guy who hits 30 HR a year with a decent OBP? Are there any sources on this besides Bizarro-Truth, can’t-get-the-scoop-from-my-own-employer Roch?
The Marlins might want more for him
But the fact is they can’t really afford to pay him the amount that he’ll earn in arbitration, and all the other teams know that. They’re dealing from a position of weakness. Also, for a 30 HR guy his OBP isn’t really all that great. It’s serviceable and compared to most of the Orioles it’s good, but it’s nothing special, especially for a corner infielder. It’s easy to forget that, though, when the O’s corner infielders have been Melvin Mora and Aubrey Huff.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
He will be traded
for more than a 2nd tier pitcher. I guar-on-tee. He’s a good player – not great – but good, who can fill needs on several different teams. Competition is enough to drive up the price.
Honestly though, can we have an agreement around here that nobody takes Roch seriously regarding hot stove stuff anymore? It’s high time we started learning from the past.
Don't underestimate the effect of arbitration on Florida's thinking
I mean, some teams are in crisis mode financially. There’s reports that Detroit is shopping Brandon Inge of all people. Florida’s entire team made less than just CC Sabathia, AJ Burnett and A-Rod combined on the Yankees.
Their business model is to keep payroll as close to their revenue sharing payment as possible. Do it right, and you pay your players less than you receive in revenue sharing, so you make money without selling a ticket. Having to shell out big $$$ to Uggla as an arb winner doesn’t fit into that business model.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
Humbly submitted: Loria is worse for baseball than Steinbrenner
And I think Steinbrenner is pretty goddamned bad for baseball.
by punkrawka on Nov 13, 2009 8:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not disagreeing with you
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
Sure...
….but the other side of the business model is getting good return on the arb players they’re jettisoning, so the machine can keep buzzing along on its own momentum.
What I’m getting at is this guy is not going to be a freebie and we’re better off not losing a decent pitching prospect or two, given pitching is what we need in the worst way, for a couple years of Uggla.
But if the price isn't too steep...
what do you think of Uggla at 3B? I’m not a fan of the move.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
What about Brandon Phillips instead?
He has less buzz (so he’ll be cheaper) but the same numbers and a better glove. He could even play SS if needed.
Phillips would be great
put him at third this year, short next year. he might take more to get, and higher salary
Does he have the range to be an every day SS?
He’s been at second for a while and his defense is solid but not great.
I’d be happier with a J.J. Hardy level of defense.
What say ye to Inge at 3?
Does a trade for Inge make sense or would MacPhail have to give too much up for the slugging “utility man”?
He was able to hit the ball hard last season (27 HRs), but couldn’t do a lot else offensively (.230/.314/.406/.720) – this could be a result of playing in the “Tiger’s Den”. He’d be under team control for a season, allowing Josh Bell to take his swings in Triple-A, and is a solid fielder at third.
if hes tossed it to the verlander for luke scott trade
then methinks ye old merry gentlemen in the front office should bring him in
/being a major tool and using words like “ye” and shit
by twistedlogic on Nov 16, 2009 1:34 AM EST up reply actions
If Uggla is such a butcher in the field
Then why not discuss the possibility of moving him to 1st? Am I missing something? 1B is easier to play than 3B, and we have more of a need at 1B than we do at 3B. If he is open to a position change (which apparently he isn’t), why would it have to be third. First seems like a much better fit to me.
either way, both points made directly above show that going after Uggla is NOT a bad idea. If he doesnt work out at 3B, there’s always 1B (we even have an almost-ready prospect in the wings at 3B anyway). If 1B doesn’t work out, there’s always DH.
Again, we’re talking about a team that hasn’t won more then 70 games in how many years? Why be so fickle when we’re not displacing anyone that currently exists in any of the positions mentioned? AND, he’s still under team control for 3 years? AND he fills a need/void in the lineup regardless the position listed next to his name… I still dont get the resistence (with all due respect). ………………This reminds me of the Beckett deal we said no to because they wanted to throw in Lowel too. …………..
There's also the fact
that Uggla wants to play 2B. Not that he has any control over it if he’s traded here, but is he gonna be salty for two years?
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
Eh
I didn’t read his quotes as being particularly demanding or pissy sounding. I just read it as hey I’m a 2B and that’s what I know. Everybody wants to play where they’re comfortable, but he doesn’t seem like the type to bitch and moan and make things miserable for everybody involved.
He stands to lose money if he moves off of second especially he moves to DH.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
It won’t be as bad as DH, but he’ll lose money if he moves anywhere but SS, CF, or C.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
What I'm saying
is that if everybody already thinks of him as a DH, it won’t make any difference because nobody is going to pay him like a stud 2B.
I agree
But I can’t imagine that he would be game for this. He’s already expressed that he’d be resistant to move elsewhere in the infield, so I’m guessing he’d throw a hissy fit if a team tried to DH him.
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