Trading for a True Ace?
by Dr Orpheus on Nov 15, 2009 11:09 AM EST
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PrintFor over three years people on this blog have complained that the Orioles have lacked a true ace for years. At some point two seasons ago, many believed that Jeremy Guthrie might be the closest this team has had since the migration of Moose and were rebuffed by a subpar performance this passed season. The reality is this team has two, maybe three, aces in the making in Chris Tillman and Brian Matusz (also, Jake Arrieta), but whose to say they will ever be as good as #2 on a good team.
This leads us to the question that has waved around the FanPost comments since the offseason: Should the Orioles trade for or sign an ace this or next season to solidify their rotation? If so, whom and who would it cost?
The Detroit Tigers, Cincinnati Reds, and Houston Astros need financial relief; the Toronto Blue Jays have an ace in the final year of his current contract; the Seattle Mariners might not be able to sign their ace to a contract extension; and the Atlanta Braves need a big bat. Every indication points to a few of these teams trading their aces.
Here is what's been rumored (overall) in the trade market:
1) There's been talk that the Tigers have/will be listening to offers on Curtis Granderson, Edwin Jackson, Gerald Laird, Brandon Inge, and, maybe, (check out this link and this one for a comment from Dave Dombrowski) Justin Verlander,
2) The Reds need to trade one or more of Francsico Cordero, Bronson Arroyo, Brandon Phillips, and Aaron Harang,
3) The the Astros may have to, finally, agree to trade Roy Oswalt,
4) The Jays may, after all the rumors, part with perennial beast of the AL East Roy Halladay,
5) The Mariners may not be able to sign Felix Hernandez to a contract extension,
6) The Braves need a big bat (this has been added for consistency's sake - unless they think Luke Scott is a big bat) and will be trading either Javier Vazquez (being an ace) or Derek Lowe (being a solid #2) to get one this offseason.
There you have it. 6 (maybe 7) pitchers that may very well be on the trade market this off season. "Which one will you chose? Win or lose."
Again, I ask you: Should the Orioles trade for or sign an ace this or next season to solidify their rotation? If so, whom and who would it cost?
My suggestion is a package deal for Brandon Inge and Justin Verlander. Of course this might be a pipe dream, but both players fit a glaring hole. Inge has a power bat from the right side (and who would be under team control for the next two years) whose numbers will be much better after being removed from Comerica's Cavernous Outfield! and player solid 3rd base (also, catcher, center field, and first) and Verlander is an ace. Sure he's not as veteran as Halladay or Sabathia, but there's no one that can deny his ace potential. For them, I'm suggesting Arrieta, Britton, Caleb Joseph/Michael Ohlman, and Matt Angle. Hell, maybe even Eddie Gamboa.
It's just like when those Pinkos traded for Becket and Peppery-Hair...only, I hope the Os don't give up a shortstop named "Hanley".
Why am I suggesting this trade after I already said the Os should go after Dan Uggla? I've heard your pleas that his defense is "bad", and I like playing devil's advocate a lot...and there's a touch of the crazy's...or kimchi.
FanPosts are user-created content and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Camden Chat or SB Nation. They might, though.
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solid choices
i would want either verlander or hernandez, but i think the mariners are hesitant to trade with us after previous experiences
Decent trade.
I like Verlander as an Ace and don’t mind giving up Arrieta to do it. I don’t want to include Britton, though. Perhaps Arrieta, Patton/ Erbe, Joseph/ Ohlman, Angle and Snyder for Inge and Verlander?
Better trade
Would be Scott and a mid level prospect pitcher like Patton, Spoone or Erbe to Atlanta for Vasquez. OR Scott staight up for Lowe.
I would love Verlander.
don’t know if MacPhail would part with enough to get him. I’d hate to part with Arrieta AND Britton, but you can’t argue with Verlander’s talent.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
maybe they'll take luke scott, arrieta, and patton for him
by twistedlogic on Nov 15, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
probably
but scott is incredibly consistent so he should be worth 2 players right? plus he loves jesus which is extra points
by twistedlogic on Nov 15, 2009 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
They'll want Luke Scott so he never has to play them any more
Cry havoc and unleash the Esskay hot dogs of war! - The Wayward Oriole, Opening Day 2008
by Eat More Esskay on Nov 16, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
What about 3E?
I now have a blog: http://justanotherbaltimoresportsblog.blogspot.com/
by BaltimoreSportsFan on Nov 15, 2009 12:01 PM EST reply actions
Hasn't he already proven he can be an ace?
I now have a blog: http://justanotherbaltimoresportsblog.blogspot.com/
by BaltimoreSportsFan on Nov 15, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
oh, kid
no
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Nov 15, 2009 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We need cookies and a juice box, stat
It’s clear 3E can pitch in the big leagues, but lets get one more season out of him before making any judgements.
He was, however, the ace of the staff last season.
by Dr Orpheus on Nov 16, 2009 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
bergesen 2010
I feel like we can probably expect something like 190 IP, 4.60 ERA out of Bergesen next year, I’d be pretty happy with that.
by ItsBenFeldman on Nov 16, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
aww
lets be a LITTLE optimistic. a lower era would be nice!
by twistedlogic on Nov 16, 2009 1:32 AM EST up reply actions
I don't like it
But mostly because Verlander is yet another player with only two seasons remaining on his contract. At least Halladay has indicated he’d want to sign an extension as part of waiving his no-trade (Halladay would also be cheaper in terms of prospects). The value of a true ace over the next two seasons is pretty diminished for the Orioles; giving up that much for an ace for two seasons doesn’t make sense.
I’ll add that Ohlman isn’t eligible to be traded yet even as a PTBNL. He can’t be traded at all until February (I think).
I can't imagine Halladay agreeing to come here.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
Why not?
I’m not saying that this is what we ought to do, but I think we’d have a lot to offer someone like Halladay – a great young core of talent which should keep us competitive for seasons to come, a good defense, plenty of money to spend and none of the hassle of playing in Boston or New York. And having spent his career in the AL East it isn’t going to be like with many free agents or injury reclamation projects, where they don’t want to hurt their future earnings by pitching in baseball’s toughest division.
Beyond that, I can see several reasons why Halladay would prefer not to go to a lot of the obvious places. He’s a Mormon from Denver who lives in Florida and is very active in Toronto with charity work for sick children. He’s spoken often of his love of playing in Toronto and doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who wants the spotlight of New York, and would probably enjoy being a teammate of Jeremy Guthrie, the most successful Mormon besides Halladay in the bigs right now.
I’ll admit it is a long shot, but I think he’d be an easier sell than most in his situation.
I agree on the AL East sentiment
He knows he can beat the Yankees and Red Sox already so that’s a point in the O’s favor. But I would imagine that he’d prefer to go to a team that has established it can win, not a team with some potential.
He might love playing in Toronto, but he’s made it clear he’s ready to win.
I had no idea he was Mormon though.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
He might not be interested, of course
That said, who knows what Halladay really thinks. Players say all kinds of things to the media.
I just think that he’s a better target than Verlander, who will cost a lot more in terms of prospects. Consider the price the Mets paid for Santana – not that much, besides the huge cost of his extension. I think that any trade for anyone not named Hanley or Pujols that includes two of Arrieta, Erbe and Britton is a mistake. If we’re going to make a blockbuster, I think we should look exclusively at the ones where we don’t have to give up too much of our best prospects.
I know most people don’t agree, but I think we’re in a great position right now. We’re cheap all over the field, and we have decent trade chips in the majors in Scott and Pie who are guys we don’t need. I think a lot higher of Snyder than a lot of folks, and I think that with him and Bell with Waring not far behind if either bust, we’re a shortstop away from being a great team if the pitching pans out. But our biggest advantage right now is money, and I think we should look for creative ways to make our money advantage work for us instead of raiding our farm. Trading for a pending free agent who is worth a long-term deal or taking on someone like Lowe who is too expensive for most teams allows us to use our comparative advantage to the greatest benefit. If Halladay is willing to come here and sign a long-term deal, the price in prospects could be something like Arrieta/Jesse Beal/Avery. That’s a lot more attractive to me than the Verlander price.
by James F on Nov 15, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I think that any trade for anyone not named Hanley or Pujols that includes two of Arrieta, Erbe and Britton is a mistake.
I guarantee you that a trade for Halladay will cost you exactly that and more, extension or not.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
I'd be willing to wager against it
…but my point is more along the lines of that being a mistake on the O’s part. I don’t think the market for Halladay will be as strong as you think, but if it is, then we shouldn’t be a part of it.
I don’t think the market for Halladay will be as strong as you think, but if it is, then we shouldn’t be a part of it.
The market for Halladay was quite strong over the summer. I don’t see why things would change now. JP is gone so maybe the new guy GM will be more realistic in terms of prospect demands, but I can’t imagine the new GM won’t demand at least 1 blue chip prospect (e.g., Arrieta) and at least one very good prospect (e.g., Erbe and Britton) even if Halladay is a one year rental.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Was it?
I don’t know that to be true, and I’m not sure that we can know.
I hate to bring up the Santana deal again, but the reaction when the Twins got so little for him was initially shock because everyone thought the rumored packages from the Yankees and Red Sox were so much better, only to discover that those offers were never made. We don’t know, for example, that the Phillies ever offered even one of Dominic Brown, Michael Taylor, or Kyle Drabek. They got Lee without giving up a single prospect as good as Arrieta.
The reality is that there are very few prospects as good as Arrieta out there, and even fewer of them who are in the hands of Boston, New York, or the other obvious candidates. The Yankees have Jesus Montero. The Mets have F-Mart, although is stock is down. The Red Sox have no one who is a top 30 prospect left, and while Buchholz is still a premium young player, he’s not going to be dealt, particularly not for a pitcher. Arrieta is better than Ryan Westmoreland or Casey Kelly, and I’m not saying that merely because I’m an Orioles fan, and Daniel Bard and Michael Bowden aren’t in Arrieta’s league either.
My suggestion was Arrieta/Jesse Beal/Xavier Avery. The Yankees cannot beat that package without including Montero, even if they offer Joba or Hughes. The Mets could match it by offering both F-Mart and Jenrry Mejia, but I seriously doubt they will. The Phillies could offer two of the three players above, but again, I seriously doubt they will. If I’m Toronto’s GM, I’d take my O’s offer above an offer of Westmoreland and Kelly, and odds are that if Boston is dealing all their best prospects, they are doing it for a hitter. Other teams with lots of top prospects are Texas, Cleveland, Tampa, and Florida – none of them are likely to go for Halladay.
In the end, Toronto HAS to sell if they can get more than two top 40 draft picks for him, and they will sell at the price the market will bear. Arrieta is the most valuable of the three O’s pitching prospects I mentioned, and also the most likely to be dealt, particularly since there is no real chance the O’s deal Erbe. Beal is probably more valuable than Bundy, but either of the two represent the best of our high-upside, low minors arms who will start in full-season ball next year. Avery is a raw, toolsy outfield prospect who held his own in low A at 19 – not that much less than Westmoreland is at this stage, which is a lot more attractive as a secondary prospect than it would be in a Red Sox deal which would be built around Westmoreland.
Remember, the Jays couldn’t get both Brown and Drabek (or, for all we know, either) for 1 1/2 years of Halladay. I think my proposed O’s offer would end up being very competitive, unless the Yanks are willing to deal Montero.
I don’t know that to be true, and I’m not sure that we can know.
Plenty of teams were interested in Halladay around the deadline. Only a few serious team emerged due to Ricciardi’s high demands.
I hate to bring up the Santana deal again, but the reaction when the Twins got so little for him was initially shock because everyone thought the rumored packages from the Yankees and Red Sox were so much better, only to discover that those offers were never made. We don’t know, for example, that the Phillies ever offered even one of Dominic Brown, Michael Taylor, or Kyle Drabek. They got Lee without giving up a single prospect as good as Arrieta.
Obviously we don’t know what is true. We simply go by what we hear in the papers. And from that, we know that the Red Sox and Yanks offered much better packages but pulled them because Bill Smith waited too long. And Lee’s isn’t a comparable example because he was being sold for a year and half whereas Halladay is only available for a year.
The reality is that there are very few prospects as good as Arrieta out there, and even fewer of them who are in the hands of Boston, New York, or the other obvious candidates.
This simply isn’t true. Arrieta was ranked as a B+ prospect before the season by John Sickels. In his August write up, he said Arrieta is on track which suggests to me that he’ll be another B+ prospect at the end of the season. A B+ propect is quite valueable but to say that there are only a “few” prospects as good as Arrieta is flat out wrong. If he was a straight up A prospect, then that statement would carry some merit.
I’m not saying that merely because I’m an Orioles fan, and Daniel Bard and Michael Bowden aren’t in Arrieta’s league either.
Sure, that I agree with. But Boston could easily out-prospect us for Halladay. .
My suggestion was Arrieta/Jesse Beal/Xavier Avery.
This wouldn’t be enough. You have to include at least one B prospect along with Arrieta.
particularly since there is no real chance the O’s deal Erbe.
From what I’ve read from minor league pundits, you’re waaaay overrating Erbe. He’s a solid prospect no doubt, but he’s hardly untouchable.
Remember, the Jays couldn’t get both Brown and Drabek (or, for all we know, either) for 1 1/2 years of Halladay.
There are very good offers on the table for Halladay. According to mlbtraderumors.com, Boston offered the following.
MONDAY, 3:01pm: So what did the Red Sox actually offer for Halladay? SI’s Jon Heyman heard Buchholz, Masterson, Bowden, Hagadone, and a positional prospect. Should Ricciardi have pulled the trigger on this 5-for-1 blockbuster?
Again, JP is gone so I’m not sure how Anthopoulos will operate. But given past trades for one year studs, Arrieta/Jesse Beal/Xavier Avery isn’t going to cut. For example, see the Mike Hampton trade (Astros to Mets: Derek Bell, Cedeno, Dotel, and Kyle Kessel), the Curt Schilling trade (from D-Backs to Boston: Casey Fossum who was quite well regarded at the time, Brandon Lyon, Jorge De La Rosa, and another prospect), and the Santana trade (Carlos Gomez, Philip Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra). Given these past trades, it’ll need to something Erbe or Britton, David hernandez, Josh Bell, and a lesser prospect like Steve Johnson OR Arrieta, Erbe, and a lesser prospect like Steve Johnson, Brandon Waring, Caleb Joseph, or Kam.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
The idea of giving up Erbe/Britton and Bell for one year of Halladay makes me feel ill.
Weaver's Fourth Law: Your most precious possessions on offense are your twenty-seven outs.
It’s Roy Halladay man. It’s going to take two good prospects who are somewhat advanced (which is why I didn’t include Avery or Hobgood as a trade centerpiece) plus some other spare parts.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
No, I agree completely that it would take that much. I’m just saying the mere thought of giving up our 3B of the future and a very solid pitching prospect (among others) for one year of a legit ace when we’re not contending horrifies me. And, really, I hope it horrifies anyone else who reads it.
Having an ace for next year would be great, but getting significant-but-very-temporary improvement at the one position for which we have some depth is not worth giving up some of said depth and one of our few really promising and advanced position players.
If we really want Halladay, I’d rather throw a crap-ton of money at him in 2011, when we might actually be coming off of a winning, or at least not embarrassing, season.
Weaver's Fourth Law: Your most precious possessions on offense are your twenty-seven outs.
No, I agree completely that it would take that much. I’m just saying the mere thought of giving up our 3B of the future and a very solid pitching prospect (among others) for one year of a legit ace when we’re not contending horrifies me.
Word. If we really want Halladay, let’s see how his age 33 season plays out next season and then evaluate him at that time. He does a trade and sign this off season, then oh well, we lose him.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Nah
I don’t know why a team that is in the end phase (hopefully) of a rebuild should be trading a lot of young talent to land a guy who is likely to leave via free agency in a year or two. If the team was closer to competitiveness, sure, but the Orioles won sixty four games last year. I can’t imagine anything being done for 2010 that would make us overcome two of the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays, so I’m not sure why we would do that.
If a guy like Verlander can be acquired as a salary dump, sure, but any package requiring two of our better prospects, I’d pass.
Librarians are hiding something
I can’t imagine anything being done for 2010 that would make us overcome two of the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays, so I’m not sure why we would do that.
I’d just like to see us overtake the Blue Jays first.
I think we will next year
While the Jays do have a lot of talented pitchers, so do the Orioles. I think the Jays are somewhat of a mess overall though, kind of where the Orioles were when MacPhail took over.
Librarians are hiding something
The Jays pitching is pretty stacked
but their offense is a hot mess.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
Also are all those guys really that good?
I thought most of those pitchers overachieved this past year.
given that we are not about to compete in 2010
I think we should give our pitching one more year of development before we decide who to use as trade chips.
Britton for example, as been steadily climbing our depth chart for the last couple of years, many scouts think that he can be a legitimate number 2 or even a number 1. I would hate to trade someone like that for a 5-win bump in 2010 and have them go into 2011 as a top 20 prospect. Ideally, in that time we will determine that we don;’t really NEED to get another pitcher…
Obviously this has a down side- what if one of our prospects turns out to be a total bust in the next year or so, but that risk is far outweighed by the potential reward of a cost-controlled contributor for the next 6 years.
saving money
I think our best course is to devote the next year totally to development, if we can pick up Uggla on the cheap (prospects wise), sure, do it, but I like taking a look at the free agent list for 2011.
we’re hopefully set at C, 3B, 2B, LF, RF, CF
1B – Carlos Pena?
SP- Becket, Cliff Lee, Brandon Webb, Javier Vazquez, Roy Halladay
let’s save our resources, pick up a 1st base bat like Pena or D Lee, spend 15-18 million p/ year on one of the available aces, and at THAT point we can try to give up a little bit of young pitching for a legitimate MLB shortstop.
that would give us something like this
2B- Brian Roberts
RF- Nick Markakis
CF- Adam Jones
C- Matt Wieters
1B- Carlos Pena
DH- Nolan Reimold
3B- Josh Bell
SS- someone we trade for
LF- Felix Pie
this would be a serious lineup
SP- free agent signing
SP- Brian Matusz
SP- Chris Tillman
SP-Zach Britton
SP-Brad Bergesen
this maybe involves our trading Arrietta, Snyder, Erbe and 2 mid-level prospects for a real shorstop
and we’d still only be looking at a payroll of…<70 million most likely
I like the idea
of having 5 starters better than Jeremy Guthrie in 2011.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
so do i
but i’m not sold on bergesen or britton being better than guthrie at this point. it all depends on whether or not guthrie bounces back to 2008 form
by twistedlogic on Nov 15, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
just for fun
Brian – .286/.368/.428 14-hr, 44 2b, 4 3b, 74 bb, 101 k, 28 sb, 4 .298/.349/.521 32 hr, 41 2b, 5 3b, 48 BB, 111 k, 15 sb 5
nick – .307/.364/.481 24 hr, 46 2b, 3 tb, 70 bb, 94 k, 7 sb +3
adam
Matt – .306/.394/.537 33 hr, 32 2b, 1 3b, 86 bb, 97 k, 2 sb, +3
Pena – .241/.367/.501 32 hr, 27 2b, 2 3b, 87 bb, 166 K 2 ?
Nolan – .287/.368/. 494 27 hr, 26 2b, 2 3b, 74 bb, 137 K, +0
Josh – .281/. 358/. 474 23 hr, 29 2b, 1 3b, 67 BB, 141 K, -3
SS
Felix – .271/.339/.422 15 hr, 27 2b, 7 3b, 48 BB, 127 K, 9
by ItsBenFeldman on Nov 15, 2009 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
I like it
I can’t see D. Lee at all, though. He won’t be that young by then. Pena is ok, though. Good fielder with plus power. I’m also not sure about trading “Snyder, Arrieta, Erbe and 2 mid level prospects for a real shortstop”, either. Yes, we need a real shortstop, but they are rare and teams seldom give them up once they are proven. The Marlins got H. Ramirez before he was proven. That’s the best way to get one. Trade some of our excess pitching prospects for a “real shortstop” prospect BEFORE he proves himself.
You never know with prospects
Problem there is you don’t know for certain the guy will turn out. He could turn into a defense-only, shortstop or a 4-A player.
Verlander
I’d love to get him, but with the Tigers in cost cutting mode, the last think they’ll do is get rid of an arb eligible ace who will make maybe $8M next year. ($3.675 this year) Edwin Jackson is cheap and would require some serious talent to get, and Bill James really doesn’t like him (2010: 10-14, 4.75). I don’t see the point in trading for Inge when we could just pay for Feliz.
But speaking of the Tigers, and getting a big bat, how much contract do you think Detroit would be willing to eat to get rid of Miguel Cabrera? Could the O’s take him on? Here is the contract:
08:$11.3M, 09:$15M, 10:$20M, 11:$20M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$22M, 15:$22M
Yes he has makeup and weight issues, and beats his wife, but dude can mash and is an average fielding 1B now. This is probably as likely to happen as getting Verlander, but hey…if we could pursuade Detroit to take a mid level prospect of two and send some cash, what do you think?
"I feel like I learned more in eight major league starts than I did in three years of college," -- Brian Matusz
Trade for Miggy even if we have to eat his hole contract
A 27 year old who is arguably the third best first baseman in baseball is hard to come by. Miggy would provide the consistant, all-star first baseman weve been looking for, even if he does cost 20 mil a season, McPhail said he would “buy the bats and grow the arms”. If the Tigers would take a few average prospects for him, I’d be down as long as Britton, Hobgood or Erbe doesnt get moved
"I Can't Wait Until Tomorrow...'Cause I Get Better Looking Every Day" Joe Namath
By 'some cash' I was thinking just a few mil
But I think I’d take it on 100% if a few spare parts got it done. Brandon Snyder, Jason Berken and Luke Scott. It’s less than we were waving at Douchera. He’s not a Gold Glove™ Defender, but he’s not terrible.
"I feel like I learned more in eight major league starts than I did in three years of college," -- Brian Matusz
we cannot possibly expect
to get “arguably the third best first baseman in baseball” without giving up a 5 star prospect. By the by, Britton, Hobgood AND Erbe would not be nearly enough to get Cabrera- who is signed through 2015…
by ItsBenFeldman on Nov 16, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What ever happened to that Eric Bedard guy?
I want him back. Preferably, healthy.
"Whether your name is Gehrig or Ripken, DiMaggio or Robinson, or that of some youngster who picks up his bat or puts on his glove, you are challenged by the game of baseball to do your very best day in and day out. That's all I've ever tried to do."
you were on to something until you said "preferably healthy"
i don’t think that guy will ever be fully healthy
by twistedlogic on Nov 16, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
He IS from Canada
You might be on to something there.
"I feel like I learned more in eight major league starts than I did in three years of college," -- Brian Matusz
Bedard would be a bad move
After he left Baltimore, he said something about not being able to handle the pressure of facing Boston and New York so many times. Leave him be.
If we’re actually talking about giving up some top prospects, what would KC want in exchange for Greinke?
by mystery tramp on Nov 17, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Lou Montanez?
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
pitchers
arroyo or harnag are realisticly more of what we would get and i can live with either of them both had a better season then any one on our staff arroyo while older seems to be getting better harang not as sold on but verlander or edwin jackson from the tiger also lowe or vazquez from the braves very do able as they have 6 starters under contract
F- you, punctuation! I'm not a "tool" for you to use.
I wonder if getting Arroyo, Jackson, or Lowe would help the team much. The opinion around the game is that the Os need a “established, veteran ace at the top of their rotation.” I’m not one to totally agree with that sentiment – I think it would certainly help matters – but of the guys you listed only Verlander, Vazquez, and Harang can/could have been considered aces.
Projections for Edwin Jackson, in fact, for next season mirror that of Guthrie in ‘08, so unless the price is extremely low, I’d bank on Guthrie bouncing back. Arroyo has been solid in the NL for the last few seasons and I doubt that would translate well in a shift to the AL. The same can be said for Lowe.
So, all in all, if it don’t pitch like an ace or put up dominating numbers like an ace, I’d suggest passing.
by Dr Orpheus on Nov 17, 2009 3:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's awesome.
There’s literally not a single punctuation mark or capital letter in that entire ridiculous gigantic run-on sentence!
The O's need...
…solid depth in the rotation more than they need one ‘true ace’. Given the money available, the free agent pool, and the youngsters coming, I think 2010 would be the perfect year for the O’s to load up on short-term deals to the injury reclamations. It’s a perfect storm of upside and availability.
Pay extra to get 1-2 year deals from Bedard, Harden and Sheets. Get all three and hope to get more than 60 starts between them. It only costs money…which the O’s have for 2010. If the stars align and they get 75+ starts, then the O’s could actually compete next year without trading away their youth movement for future years.
by sabertooth5185 on Nov 17, 2009 11:08 AM EST reply actions
But what happens if all 3 are healthy at once?
You going to bump 2 out of Matusz, Tillman, Bergesen, and Guthrie??
trade them?
what the o’s really need is some bloggers that understand proper use of punctuation and capital letters.
by twistedlogic on Nov 17, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, you bump either Matusz, Tillman, or 3E. The O’s probably want to manage their innings anyways so a stint in the bullpen won’t hurt. Or they could be optioned to AAA.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Why would they want to manage their innings?
Aren’t the 3 of them on pace for 180-190 inning seasons this year without worry? Maybe Bergesen is not, but do we worry that much about his innings anyway? I think it would be a mistake not to give them their chance to develop as major league starters in order to give guys who have no future with the team innings in the rotation.
Aren’t the 3 of them on pace for 180-190 inning seasons this year without worry?
Yeah, they are, managing their innings isn’t a huge problem. They’ll probably a very short stint in the BP in order to hit that mark, or they’ll won’t need it all if they’re kept on a very short leash per start.
Maybe Bergesen is not, but do we worry that much about his innings anyway?
Teams typically like to increase their pitchers workload incrementally but I’ve wondered if there’s any evidence suggesting that this necessary. The lame ass Verducci effect isn’t really evidence either.
I think it would be a mistake not to give them their chance to develop as major league starters in order to give guys who have no future with the team innings in the rotation.
Given the injury history of Harden, Bedard, and Sheets, if the O’s were to sign one or two of those guys, I’m almost sure they’ll be plenty of innings to go around eventually., sort of like the Red Sox this past year.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Right
but Sabertooth was suggesting that we sign all 3 and then I would worry about whether there are enough innings.
That was my...
…suggestion, because its never a bad thing to have too many effective starting pitchers. Guthrie regressed horribly last season. Unless he shows something in the spring, he would definitely be a candidate for the ‘bump’ to the pen. Tillman is a year younger than Matusz and showed that he may still need some AAA seasoning.
If all three of those guys are healthy, it would be a tragedy of riches…allowing them to be more patient with the minor league guys.
Also…Arrieta and Erbe are both being seriously overrated in this thread. If a corner outfielder with a plus bat could be attained for those two (and perhaps more), the O’s would be foolish not to consider it.
by sabertooth5185 on Nov 18, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry...
…I meant to say ‘corner infielder’.
by sabertooth5185 on Nov 18, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I'm in no way including Arrieta or Erbe in my thinking.
And I agree that having two many effective starting pitchers is indeed a tragedy of riches, but it’s a little different when you’re trying to develop effective major league starting pitchers out of very big prospects. I don’t think Tillman, Matusz or 3E has anything left to learn in the minors or the bullpen and don’t think it would be ideal for either of their development. Guthrie I care less about although 2009 I hope was an aberation.
You're damn...
…right I will. Imagine the problem of having too many starting pitchers. Oh, the humanity!
by sabertooth5185 on Nov 17, 2009 11:46 AM EST reply actions
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