Thursday Bird Droppings - Orioles News and Links
by duck on Nov 19, 2009 6:59 AM EST
in Open Threads
67 comments
In Baseball, Money Loads the Bases - WSJ.com
One reader offers his reasons for frustration with baseball's economic model. -duck
Report: Jauss to be Mets' bench coach | MLB.com: News
Dave Jauss, a former bench coach for the Orioles and Dodgers, will be hired to fill the same position by the Mets, FoxSports.com, citing Major League sources, reported on Tuesday. -duck
The Schmuck Stops Here: Orioles: Making sense of today's roster moves
That leaves a few recognizable players exposed to the Rule 5 Draft -- including shortstop Blake Davis and recently acquired pitcher Steve Johnson -- and leaves room to question why certain journeyman-type players are still on the 40-man. The Orioles kept pitcher Chris Waters, for instance, even though he didn't seem to be on the radar when the Orioles needed help at several points last season. -duck
Nationals name ex-Orioles manager D. Johnson advisor
Davey Johnson, the Orioles' former All-Star second baseman who was the last manager to lead the club to a winning season, has taken a job with the Washington Nationals. Johnson, 66, will be a senior advisor to general manager Mike Rizzo. -duck
Arizona Fall League recap -- Nov. 18
Pretty good night for the O's in the AFL. -Stacey
Remembering Corey Patterson’s Bright Spot
Corey Patterson used to be looked on fondly, doncha know. -Stacey
Mike Scioscia and Jim Tracy Are Managers of the Year - NYTimes.com
This year’s managers of the year were runaway winners: Jim Tracy of the Colorado Rockies and Mike Scioscia of the Los Angeles Angels. -Stacey
Frankly, my dear, I don't give an Open Thread.
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Schmuck gave a good analysis for the O’s complete roster moves. Also, inadvertantly, hinted that the O’s will be making moves this summer. That gave me a moment of exceitment… ps, when is the arbitration deadline? I ask because I thought the Marlins were floating Uggla to not have to pay him / go to arbitration…..
Important Dates
The 40-man rosters have to be set before the Rule V draft by tomorrow.
The arbitration deadline is December 1.
The non-tender deadline is December 12.
The famed Winter Meetings are December 7-10.
The Rule V draft itself is December 10.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
i think he actually was hinting...
….that they make moves this WINTER. And his explanation makes no sense.
Shorter Schmuck: “By stocking the roster with people we don’t like and letting go of those that we do, Andy is making it easier for himself to trim players later when he signs free agents.”
Say what? That’s ridiculous. “We don’t want to have to cut players we like later when we (potentially) sign FAs…so let’s just cut them now, instead.” Umm, okay.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
WHATS GOING ON????
I was just wondering if anyone knew who the Orioles were ligitimately starting to go after here in this off season. I mean John Lackey and Matt Holiday have no chance coming here right? Also who else would be out there that this team has a ligitmate chance of signing. The rumors are pedro feliz and erik bedard might come here, but what about Chone Figgins, does he have chance?
Anyone who knows....
isn’t posting it on the internet. We’re all just guessing with various levels of logic and circumstances to validate our guesses.
"(Brock Lesnar) never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
Man, why would we want Chone Figgins?
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew_G on Nov 19, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It won't be - I guarantee it
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Agreed
He is in his early 30s, and speed is his only wea…didn’t the Os just resign Brian Roberts a guy in his early 30s that uses speed as his primary weapon?
I guess the difference is that Roberts has other tools and Figgins seems to be a one- or two-trick pony. (1. speed, 2. slap the ball where he wants it)
Ironically
on the day Jason Berken is the O of the Day, debateably-good-or-bad writer Joe Posnanski decides he was the worst pitcher in the American League (and perhaps the majors) in 2009:
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/19/the-sweetland-awards/#more-2839
Man, I hate Jason Berken. I hope he never starts another game for the Orioles ever again. Seriously.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
I like Berken, and would not mind seeing be on call at Norfolk when we need a spot start.
But i don’t know if i can handle watching him pitch once a week again.
Yikes
Maybe I’m just numb to terrible starting pitching after years of Cabrera, Burres, Olson, and the likes burning up starts, but I didn’t even realize that Berken was that terrible. Those AVG/OBP/SLG stats were jaw-dropping.
"The United States is the New York Yankees of countries...powerful and respected until the year 2000." - Homer J. Simpson
I haven't read that yet
But was there seriously no one worse? I guess the fact that he got so many chances only added to his misery.
But I saw his major league debut! And he won! And there were 4000 people there.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
Adam Eaton and Rich Hill
but they didn’t have nearly as many starts. Berken has the worst LD% and BAA of anyone in MLB who pitched 100 innings. Hernandez was bad, but not in the same league. I’m convinced that these guys totally skewed the team’s defensive metrics in 2009.
I don’t think Berken is useless, but he had no business pitching in MLB this year. He has pitched 25 innings at AAA, so it was a trial by fire year.
Hate is a pretty strong word
It’s not really Berken’s fault he emerged as one of the only guys who was healthy enough to go out there and take his lumps every time, even knowing he was probably going to get killed. For this he gets hate? Come on, now. It’s not his fault they left him hanging out to dry against the AL East.
Cry havoc and unleash the Esskay hot dogs of war! - The Wayward Oriole, Opening Day 2008
by Eat More Esskay on Nov 19, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jason Berken was a very good soldier for the O's in 2009
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Nov 19, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's what I know
Jason Berken was god awful at pitching in 2009: 6.54 ERA in 119.2 innings (24 games…which is less than 5 innings per start on average) with a 24% line drive rate, and a FIP which was basically the same as it was from 2008 at Bowie, so it isn’t like Berken wasn’t throwing any different from his minor league career. In short: he was awful, that’s not debateable, and he has never shown that he won’t always be exactly this awful especially in the AL East.
Yes he kept going out and didn’t complain – he was a “good soldier” – but what else would he have done? Ask out of the rotation?
Ok, sure he had a few strong games. He threw 7 strong against Detroit as Stacey noted, and he pitched well against the Mets not too long after that. In total, by my count, he had those two great starts, and four other decent starts, and everything else was awful. And I don’t want to let his admitted “soldierness” (I’m honest – that’s certainly worth something) override the fact that he was Terrible when he was on the mound, and if he’s back out there in 2010 as a starter then The Plan has gone horribly, horribly awry.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
It's one season man.
And his FIRST season. Relax. Lots of people have been fucking horrible their first season in the big leagues and have had great careers. I don’t see any reason to think that 2009 is as good as we’ll ever get out of him. I can’t think of a worse characteristic for an organization that’s trying to develop a lot of young prospects to be prone to making knee jerk reactions.
except when it comes to his off-season workout plans
Berken better be working his ASS off in Arizona right now.
It'd be one thing
if this was a guy with good stuff, or a guy who scouts raved about like Tillman or Matusz. But he isn’t. If we were all non-Orioles fan, we’d all be saying “Berken is clearly a terrible starting pitcher.”
I don’t want the O’s to get rid of him – obviously that would stupid, since he could very well turn into a good reliever (and a lot of good reliever are failed starters). But he is a failed starter.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Don't get me wrong
If Berken is a regular in the rotation in 2010 something has gone horribly wrong. But I appreciate that he was this young rookie who just kept going out there. It had to be hard on him. I mean, not that he’d want to be anywhere else, you know, but it still had to take its toll. He took one (many) for the team.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
He doesn't have bad stuff at all.
He throws in the low to mid 90s with 2 other decent pitches. The problem is not stuff – it’s command.
I just think it’s absolutely absurd to call somebody a “failed starter” definitively after their FIRST season in the major leagues. It’s not like he’s some journeyman 32 year old who kicked around the minors for a decade. I don’t think you’re looking at this in anywhere close to an objective way. You’ve got your Daniel Cabrera tinted glasses on.
Last I checked, "stuff" included "command"
ergo, bad command = bad stuff
QED
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
I've never heard anybody include command in stuff.
Stuff is velocity, movement, breaking pitches, off-speed. Not where they can throw it and with how much consistency.
Although
I’ll admit that I just checked wikipedia and their definition of stuff includes command/location. I’ve never heard anybody on a basically field or coaching setting use stuff to talk about that though…
Here's a more appropriate (in my experience) definition of stuff:
From the baseball analysts (no clue who they are haha):
Two components determine how nasty a pitcher’s stuff truly is: velocity and movement.
I always thought of 'stuff' as being basically context-independent
Without worrying about the situation a pitcher is facing, what is the quality of the pitch itself? Like O’sFan21 said, this concerns primarily velocity and movement.
Command and just general baseball IQ then comes into applying that ability to the situation the pitcher is facing
Yeah to take that even further.
A pitcher can have great stuff but NEVER pitch well in a game. This happens all the time. Guys that don’t even do well in college or high school get drafted based purely on stuff (usually just velocity) with the assumption that an organization can turn that stuff into something more.
That’s why people say things like “Stuff can only take you so far and at some point you have to learn how to pitch.”
I’m pretty sure that in 99% of the situations where people talk about stuff they are specifically not talking about command/control.
A pitcher can have great stuff but NEVER pitch well in a game.
Paging Daniel Cabrera.
by BrianS on Nov 19, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok
so…we’ll agree (although I don’t really have any indication that this is true, but I’m no scout and I haven’t read many scouting reports on Berken either) that his “stuff” is fine, but he still is a bad pitcher who is unlikely to get much better as a starter.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
I'll agree that he WAS a bad pitcher.
I see NO indication that it is unlikely that he’ll get much better as a starter. I don’t see how anybody could see any indication of that. I just don’t know how anybody could make that assessment after ONE season. If you judged major league baseball players by their first seasons and cut everybody who was bad there wouldn’t be very many people left to play.
Well
there are guys who are bad at starting and continue to be bad at starting without ever seeing any success, right?
So how do we determine if Berken WAS bad or if he IS bad? By trotting him back out there 30 times in 2010? What indications did you see that suggest this is a good idea, conducive to winning?
I mean, I’m trying to be all ears. Convince me.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Well
It’s not that difficult actually. There are a number of things you could try. You could send him down to AAA and have him start and see if he does it effectively (ya know…since he’s only thrown 25 innings at that level in his career…). You could let him be mop up man in the majors and see if he does any better. That’s what an organization does.
The bottom line is the guy is 25 years old, has good stuff, and has only thrown 140 innings above AA. Saying that he’ll never be good at any aspect of pitching again is just foolish.
Also where the fuck do I say he should be a starter this year? Pay some attention.
You pay attention
At no point did I say he’d “never be good at any aspect of pitching again”. I said he won’t be a successful starter, and if the Orioles trot him back out there something’s gone horribly wrong.
I’m done with this. It’s going nowhere, as usual.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
And for the 2nd time
nobody is suggesting that they keep trotting him out there. Not sure where you got that impression.
I don't
Hey, I know things can get a little …dicey, but I want you to know there’s no hard feelings on my part.
I think a lot of problems everywhere are root caused by considering opposing viewpoints and those who hold them to be Stupid, and then what happens in a debate is a long chain of exchanges like so:
Person 1: Point A.
Person 2: Counterpoint B.
Person 1: POINT A!
Person 2: COUNTERPOINT B!!!
And so on, until it comes to blows. I’m a worse offender at this than anyone I’ve ever met, so I just want you to know: no hard feelings. We just think differently. No biggie.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
haha
That’s probably true. I think there’s also a fair amount of misunderstanding involved too (like you thinking I was saying they should start him again this year, and me thinking that you said he was never going to be good at any type of pitching).
It's just like
the same thing could have been said without being inflammatory. It wasn’t even necessary – your point stood solid by itself. I mean, I know you’ve basically made a career based on the word “fuck”, but really. Have confidence in your ability to argue based on the merit of your point. Adding the snide remark at the end is needlessly confrontational and discourages further meaningful discussion, and basically turns the conversation down the path to ad hominem attacks.
he pitched very well in at least one game.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
I don't dispute anything you've laid out in this post
I’m just saying, let’s keep the word “hate” where it belongs. You know who I hate? The fucking Yankees. The whole fucking team. The stadium, the douche fans, the announcers, the constant media attention. Fuck them all. I hate them. The same goes for the Red Sox.
Jason Berken is who he is, and that’s not a good pitcher, but I don’t hate him.
Cry havoc and unleash the Esskay hot dogs of war! - The Wayward Oriole, Opening Day 2008
by Eat More Esskay on Nov 19, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
That's fair
I’m sure he’s a good guy, and I do root for him. But I don’t have much faith in him.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew_G on Nov 19, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
screw them
i hope all team from pa ny and new england/boston come down with a serious case of something that stops them from winning for 100 yrs fuckem all i even hate sam adams boston lager
I like their summer ale
but that’s about it. I had to try their “seriously hoppy” stuff (or whatever it was called) for a class once, right after a delicious nut brown ale, and it was 100% undrinkable.
I used to like to make fun of their commerical by saying “most bakers make cookies with 1 egg. I use a dozen eggs!”, but then I learned that hops is pretty genetically close to cannabis, so now I think it makes fun of itself.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
I'm not really a fan of their beer
But i have a lot of respect for what they did a few summers ago when there was a major hop shortage
Eh
I’m not giving up on him just yet. He has relatively good stuff. I think he could be fine as a reliever or a spot starter if he gets his command a little more consistent.
Dave Johnson really likes him
He would go on and on about him on the radio. He lumped Berken in the same category as some of the higher-touted guys on more than one occasion.
just like palmer and....
..what was that kid’s name again? garrett olson?
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
Brian Burres?
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
It was "Adam Loewen"
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Drop and drive, Adam
Drop and drive.
And I always thought the actress was kinda sneaky hot. But maybe it was just me.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
Lincecum repeats as NL Cy Young in an incredibly close vote
Tim Lincecum………Giants…….11…12…..9 ….100
Chris Carpenter……Cardinals….9….14…..7……94
Adam Wainwright…Cardinals…12…..5…..15…..90
Let me get this right
The guy with the most 1st place votes finished 3rd? That’s a close vote.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
by duck on Nov 19, 2009 3:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
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