Camden Chat: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Jeff Sullivan's MLB Trade Deadline Primer

Blog Spotlight: Camden Crazies

I know that many of you are already aware of our next spotlighted blog, Camden Crazies. Daniel Moroz owns a unique place on the blogOsphere as his is the only blog that focuses on Orioles baseball almost solely through the perspective of advanced statistics. Several posters here at Camden Chat reference WAR, FIP. wOBA, and the like, but at Camden Crazies you get all of that and more which, combined with Daniel's ideas on improving our beloved Orioles, makes for a very informative and entertaining website.

If you recall the Mobbies, you might remember that Camden Crazies and Camden Chat were neck and neck for most of the voting period, with Camden Chat only pulling ahead on the last day. While I was somewhat familiar with Camden Crazies (and its prior version, Frost King Baseball), I'd never taken the time to really check it out until the Mobbies voting began. Since discovering what I was missing I've become a regular reader and the fact that I'd gone so long without knowing its awesomeness was part of my inspiration to start the Blog Spotlight series during this off-season.

Check out Daniel's thoughts on his blog, his favorite stat, and the Orioles in general below the jump. After that, head over to Camden Crazies and learn something new. And don't forget that Camden Crazies is the O's fans headquarters for your 2010 player projections.

Star-divide

Part 1 - Camden Crazies

1. Suppose I'm a lifelong Orioles fan but a newcomer to the the O's online community. Why should I subscribe to Camden Crazies in my Google Reader?

I try to use the statistics and skills at my disposal to really give in-depth analysis of what's going on with the Orioles. It's not just what moves are made, but what those moves mean - not just how a player did, but what that tells us about him as to his present abilities as well as expectations for the future.

2. As a numbers guy, what is your go-to stat to quickly judge a player's performance? If you had to rely on just one, what would it be?

If I had to rely on just one it would be Wins Above Replacement (WAR) from FanGraphs, since it gives you the best total picture of a player's value quickly (though it's not without flaws). They have a great primer on it. WAR is an end product of a lengthy process, in which other stats are used to build up towards a player's total value.

For offense there's weighted On-Base Average (wOBA), which assigns a run value weight to how many singles, doubles, etc. a hitter had and gives a rate stat on the OBP scale that encapsolates offensive production. To get an idea of how a player's past production reflects on his true talent level, I tend to look at things like Batting Average On Balls In Play (BABIP) and Home Run per Fly Ball rate (HR/FB) to see if a guy might have been "lucky" or "unlucky", walk and strike-out rates to get an idea of what kind of hitter he is (along with the standard slash stat BA/OBP/SLG). 

Defensively, the first thing I'd look at is Ultimate Zone Rating (UZR) which gives a measure of how many runs above/below average a player was with the glove compared to others at his position (more on UZR in question #3). What position a player plays needs to be adjusted for as well, since being an average defensive shortstop is more valuable than being an average defensive first-baseman. WAR takes that into account as well. All that is compared to average, so then there's another step to relate it to replacement level - you're freely available guy that anyone can sign (like a Brandon Fahey) - which not only gives you an idea of how much a player contributes above what someone who would need to take his place could do but allows the conversion to dollars to set the replacement level (0 WAR) at the league minimum salary, which is handy. There are also baserunning stats (stealing, but also going first-to-third on a single and things like that), amongst other things, that aren't all included in WAR but are good to add on.

Pitchers' WAR is based off of innings pitched and Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP) which uses the things a pitcher is more directly in control of - strike-outs, walks, and home runs. Beyond that, there's BABIP and HR/FB rate (for "luck"), as well as the very cool Pitch/FX data which gives you information on pitch velocity and movement, amongst other things. In general, I want a pitcher with a lot of K's, few walks, and a high groundball rate (which keeps the homer runs down). Obvious stuff, really.

That was probably longer than you wanted, but it would really defeat the principles I try to use in what I do to only look at one stat. Though yeah, WAR is generally the way to go.

3. UZR is a stat that gets a lot of flak at Camden Chat, most notably because Nick Markakis was rated so poorly in 2009 and because Luke Scott has been rated positively in the past. Can you give us dummies the pros and cons of UZR in layman's terms and the best way to use it in evaluating a player's overall performance? How does it compare to the plus/minus used in the Fielding Bible in your opinion?

FanGraphs saves the day again. Not directly related to the question, but FanGraphs might very well be the best baseball site on the internet now.. Can't recommend it enough. I wouldn't nearly do the measure justice by trying to explain it briefly, but basically it breaks the field into a bunch of zones and sees how players do with balls (not just out/hit but weighting the hits by their run values like with wOBA) in each zone compared to other players of the same position, adjusting for how hard the ball was hit, GB/FB/LD, and other things 

Pros: it's the best freely available measure that gives an idea of how good a player is defensively at his position relative to average, converted into runs (which is the base unit across various statistical measures for different aspects of the game - that way we can see if a player's glove is good enough to make up for a bad bat, or vice versa); and it separates out value from range, errors, arm rating for outfielders, and ability to turn the double play for infielders, which makes it easier to get an idea of a player's skill set.

Cons: fielding is hard to measure, and so even though it's best thing we've got it isn't perfect; there is some error in the way it measures things (for example. it uses a limited number of zones, so things get lumped together that aren't exactly the same); there is also the issue of sample size, in that a full season of fielding stats is not equivalent to a full season of offensive stats. That's why it's especially important to look at more than one year of data and regress to the mean. (I'm not as good about this as I should be, but I'm trying)..

Using Nick Markakis as an example, he had a +2.4 UZR in 2007 (that is, he was about 2.4 runs better than the average RF), a +12.1 in '08, and a -5.8 in '09. Instead of saying he was all over the place talent-wise - OK, great, and bad - it's better to look at all three (weighting the more recent years more; say, 5-4-3) and then (since the it's still just a sample) regress it to the mean (we have some information about how good Nick is defensively, but it's more likely than not that his actual talent level is slightly worse that we've measured - and closer to average - than that it's better) and say he's a very slightly above average RF (maybe +2 UZR). So I guess if you want to talk about how good Markakis was defensively in a given year you can cite the UZR while keeping in mind the measurement error (so if it's -5.8 in '09 and we think Nick's actually a +2 RF then it might be fair to say that he was below average defensively but probably not -5.8 runs below average; though technically, it's possible that a player can have a -10 UZR but actually have had a good defensive season (+10) that was really poorly measured). I just go with the UZR as is when I'm talking about WAR since that's what goes into it, but when making qualitative judgments I try to hedge back a bit.  If you want to talk about how good Markakis is defensively you should really look at multiple years and regress and all that (though certainty is never guaranteed). Also never hurts to look at Tom Tango's Fan Scouting Report to see how people view various players' fielding abilities as a realism check.

Comparing UZR to +/-, both use the same principles (breaking things into zones and assigning values to things that happen in them). The way they establish the zones and do the valuation is slightly different, but they both work off of the same base data so they should be fairly comparable. UZR uses larger zones so those individual sample sizes are bigger, which is nice. It also adjusts for the GB/FB tendencies of the pitcher, since groundballs from a groundball pitcher and groundballs from a flyball pitcher - even if both are classified as "fast grounders" (or whatever the exact tag would be) - are slightly different in general (easier to field a GB from a GB pitcher, on average). So I go with UZR (especially given that it's free). If you keep in mind the limitations of the stats then it doesn't really matter which one you use.

I really hoped that helped. I've been reading about this stuff for a while, so I've gotten a little bit of intuition about this but I'm still not really good about being precise when talking about it. Remember that a stat only measures that which it measure (yaye tautologies!), but the way we use and interpret it can be good or bad. If you're giving UZR flak, then that says more about you than it does about UZR. [This is like me saying win-loss record to value pitcher is bad, instead of saying that the way people use win-loss to value pitchers is bad. It's not the stat's fault that some people don't have a good grasp of what it's telling you.]

That was very, very long. And still not even close to long enough. If Field/FX really gets up and running then that will certainly help in measuring defense.

Part 2 - The Baltimore Orioles baseball club

1. Who do you think will spend more time in the OF in 2010, Nolan Reimold or Felix Pie? Is that who you think SHOULD spend more time in the OF in 2010?

If Reimold comes back healthy from his surgery and nobody gets traded, then I think he will. If Luke Scott goes then Reimold may see DH more with Pie playing left. It does work to Felix's advantage that he can play CF though. As for who should, I'd say that it depends on a lot of factors (sorry). If only one guy can play at a time, then I'd give Reimold more time in LF with Pie filling in for Jones in center and Markakis in right - so that they may end up with similar amounts of total time in the outfield. If the roster doesn't really get upgraded then Reimold at DH with Luke Scott at first and Pie in left is probably the best alignment. I'll have more to say about this closer to Spring Traning, and I'd be interested in seeing what others think of the playing time splits as part of my 2010 projections.

2. Which pitcher do you see making the biggest strides in 2010?

Matusz looked pretty good last year for if he just pitches that well for a full season it'll be valuable. Bergesen may be able to get his groundball rate up a tick (which would be great), but his ERA is likely to look worse even if he pitches at about the same level (not enough K's). David Hernandez was pretty awful, so if he just becomes just "bad" it would be a stride forward. In the end I guess I'll go with Tillman - largely by default - since he wasn't good last year but has the tools to be a quality starter. He doesn't have to come close to reaching his ceiling to show big improvement. I could see him upping his strike-outs and lowering the walks, and hopefully he can get his home run problems under control.

3. Who is your all-time favorite Oriole?

Mike Mussina. Loved watching him pitch. Had an extensive arsenal and could throw any pitch in any count, including a unique-ish one (the knuckle curve); great control; that was really smart in general, and he seemed like a good guy. I was always convinced - even before really I started to look at stats - that he was really one of the best pitcher in baseball (behind Maddux and the Big Unit for sure is all I remember). I really hope he gets into the Hall of Fame one day, because he deserves it - he was only the 5th best starter of his era, but it was an era filled with some of the best of all-time (Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, Pedro). Later on, I also liked him from a contrarian angle since I thought he was underrated due to the "never winning 20 games" thing. When he won 20 in his last season I was really happy for him, and I thought it showed a lot of character for him to retire to be with his family even though he could have made millions of more dollars and tried to hang on to get to 300 wins. It might be crazy, but Moose's 35 is the number I associate with the Orioles even more than Ripken's #8.. Unlike a lot of O's fans, I was never that mad at him for going to the Yankees. I'm not really sure why though. If there was one guy I could hang out with for a day - even more than some of the sabermetrically inclined players of today - it would be Mike Mussina.

0 recs  |  Comment 11 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

This is great

All those advanced stats are like Greek to me, but darn it, I’m gonna read this through carefully and hopefully some of it will stick.

by O Nina on Nov 30, 2009 5:03 PM EST reply actions  

Daniel here,

I tried to make things as understandable as possible, but it was quite tough. I’d be more than happy to answer any additional questions to the best of my ability as well.

And thanks to Stacey kind words.

by KakesForROY on Nov 30, 2009 5:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Very good web site

I will add it to my reading list. I am reading, Baseball, Inside the Numbers. I am slowly learning the new advanced stats. I know what many of the new stats mean, but for many of them I don’t know whether they indicate that the player is good, bad, or average. I am learning, but it will take a while.

I wish that the experts were higher on Hobgood. I would rather see our first round pick listed as an A rather than a B.

by BaltoBen on Nov 30, 2009 5:40 PM EST reply actions  

FanGraphs

Is very handy for the good/bad/average stuff since their graphs have little bars that break things down like that for you and their stats pages have league averages for most stats.

by KakesForROY on Nov 30, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

BETWEEN the numbers

Is also the best stats primer. But maybe that’s what you mean.

And about Hobgood, I’d rather wish that the scouts were correct about a prospect being an A or a B more than I wish Hobgood specifically was an A.

The stock market will never recover, our armies will never again be #1, and our children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives - HST

by the fix is in on Nov 30, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

On UZR...

I think I get the gist of how UZR works, but it seems like the flaws are pretty significant. I remember reading a thread or two on FanGraphs where a commenter was arguing that UZR is critically flawed since:

- Chase Utley can get exaggeratedly good numbers for positioning himself to field balls that Ryan Howard should really get.
- We don’t have anything like hitf/x; in other words:
- The difference between a “line drive” and a “fly ball” is subjective, and
- The fielder might’ve been positioned poorly for where the ball was hit (which is often not his fault).

On the last point: isn’t a competent pitching staff going to make fielders’ UZR look better? Let’s say the pitcher is going to try to keep the ball on the outside half of the plate against a power lefty. That means that the RF is not going to be playing close to the right-field line. If the pitcher throws one inside and the batter hits it down the right-field line, the RF might not be able to get it simply because the pitcher messed up, not because he’s slow or positioned poorly. (Yes, I’m thinking about Nick Markakis here.)

And with the way UZR seems to fluctuate dramatically year-to-year, I don’t really trust it as a good measure of a player’s defensive performance in a year. Intuitively, a player’s defensive production should vary a lot less than his offensive production. Some of the writers on FanGraphs seem to say in one post that a single season’s worth of UZR data is too small to judge how well UZR reflects reality, but in another post they reference a player having a good or bad defensive year. Huh? Isn’t that counter-intuitive?

Basically, it seems like UZR is a good idea, but something like hitf/x would give us a much better idea of defensive ability.

Weaver's Fourth Law: Your most precious possessions on offense are your twenty-seven outs.

by Vuff on Nov 30, 2009 7:41 PM EST reply actions  

Your conclusion seems accurate; the rest (to the best of my knowledge)...

“Chase Utley can get exaggeratedly good numbers for positioning himself to field balls that Ryan Howard should really get.”

I’m not an expert on it, but I don’t believe UZR helps/hurts players for playing next to bad/good teammates to any significant degree.

“The difference between a "line drive" and a "fly ball" is subjective”

True, but so are hits/errors (and we don’t usually say a guy with 30 errors might be sure-handed because of the subjectivity of the measure). It’s not perfect but it’s pretty good.

The fielder might’ve been positioned poorly for where the ball was hit (which is often not his fault).

Seems like positioning yourself well is a part of defensive skills. If you know where every ball will go beforehand then your range is effectively fantastic no matter your physical skills. That means it’s harder to get an idea of the latter (a little), but it does help for projecting production (which is what we really want).

On the last point: isn’t a competent pitching staff going to make fielders’ UZR look better? Let’s say the pitcher is going to try to keep the ball on the outside half of the plate against a power lefty. That means that the RF is not going to be playing close to the right-field line. If the pitcher throws one inside and the batter hits it down the right-field line, the RF might not be able to get it simply because the pitcher messed up, not because he’s slow or positioned poorly. (Yes, I’m thinking about Nick Markakis here.)

This is like the last point. If the fielder is always positioning himself one way because of what the pitcher will do, and the pitcher doesn’t do it, then he should stop. It’s a ding to his abilities if he never makes adjustments in the field. Also, I’m pretty sure pitchers don’t have quite that level of control over where a batter will hit the ball. For 2009, teams with better control (BB/9) did have slightly higher UZRs, though R^2 was only 0.022. For 2008 it was 0.0006. For 2007 it was 0.000. I don’t think that’s a significant factor at all.

“And with the way UZR seems to fluctuate dramatically year-to-year, I don’t really trust it as a good measure of a player’s defensive performance in a year. Intuitively, a player’s defensive production should vary a lot less than his offensive production. Some of the writers on FanGraphs seem to say in one post that a single season’s worth of UZR data is too small to judge how well UZR reflects reality, but in another post they reference a player having a good or bad defensive year. Huh? Isn’t that counter-intuitive?”

That’s why you look at multiple years. I don’t think defense does vary more than offense; a -10 UZR to +10 UZR from one year to the next is like hitting .303 in the first half and .222 in the second half [cough – Adam Jones – cough]. Both give you information about a player’s true talent level, though neither gives you the full picture. A single season of UZR doesn’t give you the true talent level (reality, as you called it), but it does give you some information about how a player did in the one year (though not perfect). There is a difference between true talent level and production in a given year.

UZR is not a complete measure, but it gives you a pretty good idea. To say that its flaws are significant is overstating it a bit, I think.

by KakesForROY on Nov 30, 2009 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm probably exaggerating its flaws, yeah.

About Utley: I’m singling him out because I’m also a Phillies fan; he’s obviously a great fielder. It’s my understanding that UZR gives players more credit for making plays outside of their typical zones than plays inside of it. So if Utley tends to play a little closer to first base and thus gets to more balls outside of the usual 2B zone, he looks even better than he is (which is already pretty fantastic). I might be wrong on this, but I think I remember reading some stuff admitting that this bias exists.

On positioning: Obviously, positioning is an important defensive skill; some players survive on having good positioning to make up for lack of speed (such as our own Cal). But at the same time, the way a fielder positions himself depends on how the pitcher is supposed to approach the hitter. Whether the manager or the pitcher calls for a shift, the fielders are generally going to listen… if nothing else, from a player’s perspective, if you’re not going to make the play, better for it to be because you are listening to your manager than because you aren’t. I know I’ve read once or twice that defensive shifts make it significantly harder to measure defense, as well. On the whole, though, I guess there’s no reason to think that this sort of problem is really going to affect one player or team any more than others, especially if the numbers don’t seem to support it as you point out.

Talent vs. season: I get the difference between true talent level and production in a given year. I just have trouble when, within a single season, UZR tells me one thing while my eyes tell me another. I also think it’s hard to compare a player’s defense year-to-year using UZR, since it’s relative to an average fielder at that position in that year. A player can play almost identical defense in two years, but if the rest of the league improves or regresses, he’ll look worse or better accordingly. Thus, I’m a little wary of saying a fielder has a “good” or “bad” year based solely on UZR. However, I do think that if you look at a player’s UZR across his career, it should judge his true talent level pretty accurately.

Weaver's Fourth Law: Your most precious possessions on offense are your twenty-seven outs.

by Vuff on Nov 30, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

As MGL – who developed UZR – likes to say, all a guy’s UZR really tells you is what his UZR was. That makes it really tricky to talk about a player with out a bunch of caveats and digressions though, so that part is usually skipped over (but, I guess, assumed to be understood).

As to Utley, I’ll admit that I don’t remember seeing that stuff (do you happen to have a link handy?) but I’d think if he’s shaded over to make plays in hard to reach places on one side (and get credited for it), he’d also be less likely to make the easier plays on the other side (and would thus get hit there). So I don’t think that would really make a big difference overall, and the plus/minus numbers which break down numbers in different directions would give clues about that. The shifts would be an issue, but they don’t happen all that often either. It is true that when you add all the little things up they make UZR not ideal, but if we’ve got maybe a 90% grasp on offense we’re maybe at 60% for defense (which is a huge leap forward from where we were).

by KakesForROY on Nov 30, 2009 11:23 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, I guess part of the problem is, when you’re just trying to get acquainted with the newer, more complex statistics, those who are already familiar with them tend to talk about them without all the caveats. If you read the average article on FanGraphs, you get the impression that UZR gives more like a 90% grasp of defense rather than 60%. If most stat guys think that UZR tells us more like 60% of what we want to know, I’m fine with that assertion.

As for the stuff about Utley, I was misremembering a bit… I tried to find the articles I read, and while I found one at The Hardball Times about his +/- in 2008 which talks about him shifting to his left against lefties, I think I inferred too much about him making up for Howard based on some comments on FanGraphs rather than actual articles. It sounds more like it’s just good positioning that happens to get inflated a little bit since it does allow him to back Howard up more.

Also, this thread of comments on FanGraphs makes me feel stupid for harping on positioning; apparently, adjustments are made for that.

Weaver's Fourth Law: Your most precious possessions on offense are your twenty-seven outs.

by Vuff on Dec 1, 2009 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

It's cool

This stuff is indeed quite complicated. I’ve been trying recently to make more clear exactly how I’m using the data, but it’s tough and I still don’t have near enogh understanding to really go through all the little details.

by KakesForROY on Dec 1, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The SB Nation blog covering the Baltimore Orioles.

Please read our Community Guidelines
Start posting about the Orioles »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Youppi_small
Tejada
Youppi_small
Effectively Wild
Youppi_small
Why the Orioles Lose: Part XXV

Recent FanPosts

Eric_davis_small
Tejada traded to Padres
Shhh_small
Per ESPN: The Buck Stops Here, er, Tuesday...
Small
It's time for Kranitz and Crowley to go!
Baltimore-skyline_small
Loyal to the game
Youppi_small
OT: Inception (with Spoiler Discussion)
Small
WINTER ALL YEAR LONG?
Images_small
Things We Can Look Forward to in the Second Half

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Official Sponsor of Camden Chat GameThreads

Tankeray_medium
Tankeray provided by dayzd toe

SBNation.com Recent Stories

HOUSTON - JULY 24:  Pitcher Roy Oswalt #44 of the Houston Astros throws against the Cincinnati Reds in the first inning at Minute Maid Park on July 24 2010 in Houston Texas.  (Photo by Bob Levey/Getty Images) +13 updates

Done Deal: Roy Oswalt Traded To Phillies, Will Make Debut Friday Night In Washington

Washington Nationals' third base coach Pat Listach shakes Adam Dunn's hand who rounds third after hitting a solo home run during the eighth inning of a baseball game against the Atlanta Braves, Thursday, July 29, 2010, in Washington. (AP Photo/Drew Angerer)

MLB Trade Deadline: Where Does Your Team Stand As Saturday Approaches?

Los Angeles Dodgers' Brad Ausmus (12) slides into third base ahead of the tag of San Diego Padres third baseman Chase Headley during the fifth inning of a baseball game Thursday, July 29, 2010, in San Diego. (AP Photo/Denis Poroy)

Salazar's 9th Inning Pinch-Hit Single Propels Padres To 3-2 Win Over Dodgers

More from SBNation.com >

SPONSOR

GAMETHREAD SPONSOR

Masn_medium


Head Honchos

Oriole1_small zknower

Felix1_small Stacey

Ocsignnew_small duck

Writers

Esskay_small Eat More Esskay

4840750964_54cdc24eef_small James F

Img_1591_small WestcoastO'sFan

2009_june22_philliekid3_small twistedlogic

More Writers

Hagyx_small Roarfrom34