Friday Bird Droppings
by Camden Chat on Dec 11, 2009 7:00 AM EST
in Open Threads
255 comments
O's Make Rule 5 Draft Picks, Complete Millwood Trade
Southpaw Ben Snyder from the Giants' system is the PTBNL in the Millwood-Ray trade.-zk
Orioles players applaud Millwood trade -- baltimoresun.com
Brian Roberts, Brian Matusz, Jeremy Guthrie, and Nick Markakis all weigh in on the Orioles' signing of Kevin Millwood. -zk
O's to meet with Chapman's agents in Houston next week -- baltimoresun.com
Stockstill, who met with Chapman and Mejia on Oct. 30 in New York, said nothing that the club has heard in its talks involving the player has discouraged the Orioles from moving forward with the hard-throwing left-hander. -zk
Baseball Notes: Former Phillie Feliz agrees to 1-year deal with Astros | Philadelphia Inquirer | 12/11/2009
In case you missed it, former Phillies 3B Pedro Feliz agreed to a one-year contract with the Houston Astros. One less option for the O's. -zk
Getting to third base - MASNsports.com
Roch says the 3B hunt is down to Kevin Kouzmanoff, Joe Crede, and possibly Garrett Atkins. "MacPhail seemed to dismiss [Dan] Uggla, preferring a natural third baseman....". Um, yay. -zk
O's on Deck: More information about Jose Duran
The O's took Duran during the AAA phase of the draft. The ERA looks ugly from last season, but the Winter League numbers look better. So there ya go. -duck
Dave Johnson on his son Steve getting taken in the Rule 5.
At some point I started really liking Dave Johnson, and this article doesn't hurt. -Stacey
Buck Martinez leaves Baltimore
After 7 years broadcasting for the Orioles, Buck Martinez will call Blue Jays games for Rogers Sports Net in 2010. Thanks for everything, Buck. No word on who will replace him. -Stacey
NFL News: Schwartz all business in return to Baltimore
"Detroit Lions coach Jim Schwartz began a conference call with Baltimore writers this week by turning things around and posing the opening question. "I want to know who the Orioles are going to pick up to play third base,'' Schwartz asked." Schwartz grew up in the Baltimore area and this will be his first visit to M&T Stadium as a NFL head coach when the Lions take on the Ravens. -duck
CC.com's HoF Ballot
If you haven't already, go ahead and participate in Camden Chat's Hall of Fame vote. -Stacey
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BELTRE
the redsux are in hot pursuit. i also belive he want more then we should pay 10 m a yr i say get atkins.
Atkins?
I don’t buy into him at all. Here are his OPS’s from the past four years:
.965, .853, .780, .650 (!)
And that’s playing 1/2 his games in Colorado.
Crede is a plus defensively and has some pop. He’s a health risk, but nobody that we’re going to find in this market is a slam dunk anyway.
Or if you want somebody who’s at least still a league average hitter and has a better chance of bouncing back, the Kouz is only 28.
But Atkins would be dead last on my list.
"The United States is the New York Yankees of countries...powerful and respected until the year 2000." - Homer J. Simpson
KOOOOOOZ!
I want him because of his name. I prefer names that are fun to yell. What’s fun about yelling Crede?
Kouzmanoff's OBP last four years:
.279
.329
.304
.299
That’s just dreadful. Pass.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Not that it'll make him take more walks
But getting out of Petco will surely up his batting average a bit.
And that .279 was in 61 PA so it doesn’t really seem fair to include it. Not that he’s great shakes without it (career OBP .308) but still.
no more buck:(
who is going to have to suffer through gary thorne’s horrible pitch identification now?
"you know what the orioles could use right now? a day off." - joe angel
Hopefully Dave Johnson
The stock market will never recover, our armies will never again be #1, and our children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives - HST
by the fix is in on Dec 11, 2009 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
you have to think so, right?
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on Dec 11, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
From the Sun Article:
Andy MacPhail said Millwood will likely be the team’s No. 1 starter, meaning he’s in position to end Guthrie’s two-year reign as the club’s Opening Day starter. Guthrie said that wouldn’t bother him.
I didn’ think that would happen. I was looking forward to having Guts pitch in Tampa, and then have Bergesen ready for the Home Opener.
The stock market will never recover, our armies will never again be #1, and our children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives - HST
Millwood will be our #1...
for the first couple of weeks. That’s it. I fully expect Bergesen or Matusz to emerge as our #1 starter by May 1 and I think Matusz may fill the bill for years to come.
I fully expect Bergesen to regress by the ASG. Smoke and mirros last only so longer unless your name is Greg Maddux. Personally, I’d love to see Bergesen flipped for a great return by July 31. I just don’t see him performing at a high level for years at a stretch. Sell high.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
Actually
I gave 3E1N a good look a while back and I don’t see a lot of reason that he can’t duplicate in part his success. He’ll regress some, but he really could be an above-average starter (if only slightly) in the AL East. That’s all assuming he recovers without any side effects from his broken leg.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
I can see him being a right handed Mark Buehrle
which would be just fine with me.
"I'd like to do something. We all would here," he added. "As I've said before, you just don't want to do anything stupid that you're thinking in May, 'What in the God's green earth was I thinking about?'" - Andy MacPhail 12/8/09
not a bad thing...
he will go as far as the defense takes him. and seriously, what’s wrong w/ having a cheap, solid 4 or 5 guy?
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on Dec 11, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Not a damn thing.
It beats having an expensive, crappy one.
"I'd like to do something. We all would here," he added. "As I've said before, you just don't want to do anything stupid that you're thinking in May, 'What in the God's green earth was I thinking about?'" - Andy MacPhail 12/8/09
been there, done that...
rick helling, come on down!
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on Dec 11, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
you mean expensive crappy 4-5 guys
that were actually supposed to be top of the rotation guys?
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Because I'm hoping
we have 5 guys better than him in the rotation, and someone else pays us for a high perceived value.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
zips, fip, war probably
somebody on the other thread was talking about prediction intervals for all of our pitchers….
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
In basic summary
3E1N had a 4.42 xFIP in ‘09 (compared to a league average ERA of 4.5). This was based in large part on a 50.1% ground ball rate and 2.34 BB/9 rate. His 4.74 K/9 rate isn’t helping, but it was mitigated by his excellent other numbers. So, Bergesen’s success was defined and will continue to be defined by his ability to keep the ball in the ballpark and not walk guys, since he doesn’t have the stuff to miss bats.
So, in my head, 3E1N’s success was not fluke because his walk rate fit in perfectly with his minor league track record, as does his ground ball inducing ability. Nothing he did last year was particularly flukish for him (aside from a high strand rate and low BABiP and HR/FB rate, but that’s why I used xFIP). So, it makes sense for me to predict that he can put up a low 4.00s ERA into the future, which is definitely above average.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Ok - I wasn't being critical
I was just curious about whether you were like watching game tape or something. I don’t think it was a fluke either. I just think that eventually he’s going to have to develop better offspeed pitches to continue being successful.
No worries
we butt heads enough that you being critical (or not) isn’t going to bother me.
As for his offspeed stuff, I love his slider personally, so that’s something.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
yeaaaa
i still wonder how good a guy can be only throwing 88 mph
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Command and movement
I’ve heard the movement on his sinker compares well with Derek Lowe and Roy Halladay.
Speed’s hardly the only indicator of quality. Look at D-Cab, Liz, Armando Benetiz, etc. etc.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
We've been over this
but neither Lowe or Halladay came up throwing as slow as he does. It’s really pretty hard to stick in the majors as a RHP throwing 88 mph.
Lowe is a semi-reasonable comparison at this stage in his career (although better offspeed), but halladay is not. Halladay still throws int he mid-90s.
And nobody said it was the only indicator of quality, but look around the league. There just aren’t that many RHPs that don’t throw 90.
I'm not really saying Bergesen is the next anybody
My only point is that speed isn’t the be-all, end-all. Heck, Matusz only throws like 91 or so, right? The difference between 88 and 91 is 3 mph. I really think Bergesen will be just fine.
But we shall see, shan’t we?
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Is that true?
Weird!
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
And they definitely don't NEED to throw as hard as RHPs.
RHPs basically need to be hitting 90 to get a scout’s attention, but plenty of LHPs get drafted/signed throwing mid to upper 80s.
Matusz is a LHP
the standards are completely different for them. And really 3 MPH is pretty big at that level.
We couldn't get a great return for him
All of your concerns are surely shared by scouts and GMs across the league. And they would be shared to an even greater extent if we started shopping him.
If a good deal is out there, sure
But I’m no holding my breath on one. He doesn’t have the firepower or the K rate to be that attractive, unless his ERA stays down.
OTOH, Dayton Moore has some interesting prospects until his control.
B-Rob, aka Mr. Sunshine, on Millwood: "he'll give you 200 innings every year and 12 to 17 wins probably"
Kinda makes it sound like Christmas came a little early this year, don’t it? That said, let’s keep this happy thought alive: Welcome to Balmer, Kevin, we can’t wait to open our present this spring.
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.
Realistically.....
I think we can expect 12-14 wins and and a 4.30 or so ERA. Which, unfortunately, is a HUGE improvement over 90% of the pitchers we’ve had for the last half decade.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
Certainly better.
Better than all of the possibilities for the #5 starters role: Berken, Hernandez, Hendrickson, Waters, etc., etc. All those people that were paraded out to the mound last year. Wherever Millwood fits in the rotation, he is an improvement. Bergesen, Matusz, Tillman, Guthrie and Millwood is ok with me.
in spandex?
it thats the case, dont do it near me
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
a ha ha ha
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
The quotes in that article
are proof to me that it’s not useless to spend money on a pitcher that will only be on the team for one non-contending year.
This one's my favorite
“It was huge excitement, not only for our pitching staff and the entire team, but for a young pitcher looking for a mentor who has playoff experience,” said Matusz
shit
we just released melmo! we already had all of the playoff experience we needed!
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How not to drink "cheap" beer and drink Budweiser instead!
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
And kill things with a gun
Don’t forget that.
Of course, we still have LUUUUUUUKE….
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
Please get Kouzmanoff
We have plenty of guys who can get on base.
He’s practically Uggla, but he’s a natural third baseman, a year younger, and a lot cheaper.
Atkins got hot at the end of the year as a pinch hitter… doesn’t seem like a full-time guy.
We have plenty of guys who can get on base
What? The most important job of any offensive player is to get on base. If you can’t do it, you aren’t really helping!
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Not necessarily
There needs to some sort of threat in the middle of the lineup.
Compared to Joe Crede (sub .300 OBP regardless), Kouz is lethal
by whereswieters on Dec 11, 2009 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
None of these guys
are going into the middle of the lineup
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
exactly – none of the guys left on the market are going to be in the middle-of-the-lineup for the O’s. So who’s the best of who’s left? Easily Kouzmanoff because of age, team control, actual offensive stats (and remember he was playing in a canyon – Petco), defense, etc. He’s certainly a perfect #6 hitter to me…. In any offer to them I would start with Hernandez because he’s a young pitcher (expendable to us) read for the pros, great upside, from California, and a link to the latinos in Cali (hey, ESPN used that as an argument to keep AGonz there). ….I don’t see why we couldnt get a deal done without taking from the core.
Let's start from the top
Since we’re talking about a 1/2 year to 1 year stopgap while we wait on Bell, I say age and control aren’t an issue (though it’d be nice to have a young, controlled player as a backup plan). So let’s talk about price, offense, and defense. Our options seem to be: Glaus, Atkins, Kouzmanoff, Wigginton, DeRosa, and Blalock.
We already know Wiggy is the cheapest option at $0, and I can make my best guess that DeRosa will be the most expensive followed by Kouzmanoff, Atkins, Glaus, and Blalock, but that none of them except DeRosa should be expensive. Obviously I really don’t know that, but it’s a guess.
On defense, I’m no scout, but UZR says Kouzmanoff is easily the best fielder and Wiggy is by far the worst fielder of the group.
Offensively, if we use OPS+ (adjusted for the stadium) over the last two years, we can rank the them like so: Wigginton, Blalock, Kouzmanoff, DeRosa, Atkins, Glaus. If we go by career OPS+ it’s: Glaus, Uggla, WIgginton, Atkins/Blalock/Kouzmanoff, DeRosa.
So, knowing all of that, I’m ready to cross Mark DeRosa and Troy Glaus off the list. Of the rest, it actually does seem like Kouz is the best option despite his inability to not make an obscene number of outs…but again, it’s not like any of these guys are anything more than average players (and potentially below average in the AL East) nor stopgaps.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
you left out Melvin Mora
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
I dont see it as out-of-the-possibility that we trade for Kouzmanoff. If and when Bell comes up, we slide him over to play 1B.
Also, I see us signing Blalock to a two year incentive laden deal if he’s the last one standing, to play first base. He then, when the pups are up, could be big bat off the bench / utility fielder / platoon DH with Scott (until he;s traded)
But if we get both
Kouz and Blalock what happens when Bell comes up and you want to slide Kouz over? Where’s Blalock go?
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Yes and no
It is wrong to say that we need power in the middle of the lineup. We need a valuable hitter in the middle of the lineup. It doesn’t matter if he creates his value with OBP or Power. If he has a low OBP Like Kouz, he better have alot of power (and vice versa). According to fangraphs, Kouz was worth 2.7 wins. This is what he has been worth each of the last three years. That’s Ok, it’s above average. Mora was worth 1/3 of this. If we can get Kouz cheap, he’s a worthwhile upgrade. He still has some potential upside, and there are far worse ways to keep Bell’s postion warm.
by uneasy rider on Dec 11, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
3B doesn't concern me.
With Bell perhaps being ready by mid summer, Wigginton , Moore or even Turner are ok with me for a few months. If Bell isn’t cutting it at Norfolk and our 3B needs improvement then we can trade for something in June or July. Kouzmanoff would cost the Orioles a couple developing starters like Erbe, Patton, Hernandez or (dare I mention) Arrieta. I just don’t think the O’s need him that badly. Crede, Glaus, Atkins and Uggla are not much of an improvement over Wigginton, Moore or Turner. I say go with what we’ve got unless Bell doesn’t look good in Norfolk.
The Orioles biggest need is a cleanup hitter / 1B.
The team does not have a #4 hitter, and I don’t think any of the young stars will become one. Jones, Reimold and Weiters are great, but I don’t think they will become sluggers. Snyder, Hughes, Aubrey and Wigginton can all play 1B, but I don’t think there is a cleanup hitter amongst them. Even Waring doesn’t look like an AL East cleanup hitter in the future. Not sure how or where to get one, but that is (IMO) their biggest need. It would really improve the rest of the lineup, too. Fielder, A.Gonzalez, Smoak, B.Butler and M.Cabrera have all been mentioned. Any one of them would fit the bill.
Those guys really aren't options right now
Unfortunately, the Orioles are probably stuck without a true #4 for at least a year, probably two. None of those guys are getting traded, and if they were it would probably cost something like Tillman, Arrieta, Reimold, and Britton. Which is just crazytalk. We’ll have to live without a slugging first baseman for the time being.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Branyan, LaRoche, and Nick Johnson
are my top 3 FAs.
And really, it’s all about Branyan. His defense is average, but his ISO is up there with Dunn and Douchera. He wants a multi year deal, but so what? Give it to him. He doesn’t play 150 games anyway so there will be opportunity to slot Snyder in.
Any thoughts on Wood from the Angels?
He could hold down 3B til Bell is ready, then switch to SS to give us a SS who can hit!
i wouldnt oppose
they can have jason berken for him
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
That's my impression as well.
But I suspect the Angels won’t be patient with him. He’s never been given an extended chance to prove himself in the majors. He might be available by June if he struggles a bit.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
i'd hope bell is ready or almost ready at that point
so i wouldnt really want to give up anything for him if we’ve already waited that long
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
ah good point
we could deal izzy at that point if thats the case
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe the Halos will get Beltre
I mean, it’s highly unlikely, but you never know
Buck
Who’s going to fill the role of announcer-with-head-cold-buried-alive-and-speaking-through-garden-hose now?
From the Land of Pleasant Living...
by OEutaw on Dec 11, 2009 10:37 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
as long as we dont get more of gary thorne
and his red sox gushing then i’m okay with it
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
It's a tough thing....
….I actually like Buck. He at least seems to be the most likable of all the Orioles announcers, which might not be saying much when you work with Jim Palmer and Gary Thorne, but still. But his voice is simply grating. It honestly makes it difficult to watch a game to the point where I’ve been known to turn on the radio and mute the TV so I don’t have to listen to him.
Watch Jays games on EI and you'll get all the Buck you can handle.
Look at that extension and so forth.
"I'd like to do something. We all would here," he added. "As I've said before, you just don't want to do anything stupid that you're thinking in May, 'What in the God's green earth was I thinking about?'" - Andy MacPhail 12/8/09
Chappy Chanukah, y'all
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
or a knish maybe?
i’m not sure thats jewish tho.
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
me too!
for some reason, i think they are amish and not jewish, but i really have no idea
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
i did not notice that
mostly because i havent been to a sunday game in quite a while. for some reason, i just dislike afternoon games. probably cuz its hard to see from the upper deck when its really bright out.
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
i see
well i guess that is evidence that i never go to friday games either. too much traffic on 495/95 to even bother
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Don't go that way....
…or the Parkway.
Take 29 and cut over on either 175 or 100. There’ll still be traffic but you will keep moving better. Even with the lights.
hmm didnt think of that
which is odd because i go to uva and drive on 29 pretty much daily. i am coming from VA tho, so to get to 29, i have to use rt 7 or some other annoyingly traffic-ed road
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
I love day games, I went to like three or four this year
It;’s true. Jewish people take over the yard on Sunday. Well not really the whole yard, because they like to stay together in a pack.
The stock market will never recover, our armies will never again be #1, and our children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives - HST
by the fix is in on Dec 11, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
its not really a hard feat to accomplish
seeing as tho, on average, there are only about 10 ppl there on any given day anyways
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
genius.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
as long as he avoids anything that bends maybe?
if that happens, everything’ll be kosher
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Kosher? Knish? hallah? Hannukah?
this episode of bird droppings was apparently brought to you by letters J, E, and W.
and the number 8
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
this guy?
"I'd like to do something. We all would here," he added. "As I've said before, you just don't want to do anything stupid that you're thinking in May, 'What in the God's green earth was I thinking about?'" - Andy MacPhail 12/8/09
i was thinking 8 days of lights
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
Surely, not a coincidence.
Cry havoc and unleash the Esskay hot dogs of war! - The Wayward Oriole, Opening Day 2008
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 11, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Good stuff too: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-marginal-value-of-a-win.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Wait a minute
Tillman will team up with 2008 first-rounder Brian Matusz to give Baltimore a deadly one-two punch at the top of the rotation.
I’m pretty sure they’re back end guys, for next year anyway.
And, the skyrocketing GB% and his plate discipline worry me.
yea they are back end guys
millwood is our new ace!!!
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
I’m pretty sure they’re back end guys, for next year anyway.
Hopefully, that will change as the season progresses.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Don't count your chickens, friend-o
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Anyone buy this?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/12/orioles-mariners-interested-in-jason-marquis.html
It just seems like a terrible idea.
I would have thought we'd have lost interest
after getting Millwood. What would we even do with both of them?
Unless the Orioles
are planning on signing another dude and then flipping Millwood or Guthrie, I can’t see the point, either.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Andy Mac did say, after getting Millwood
that he wasn’t done yet and we’re still in the market for pitching.
guths
has beens talked about as trade bait to tb for pena lets me find the site ill post it here it’/s guthirie and till for coarlos pena just in talk at this point
I completely buy it. Andy said he’s shopping for another starter. He’s had interest in Marquis in the past. And I’m not particularly thrilled with it. He’ll be expensive. And he’s not really pitcher who’ll be around for the winning years. I’m fine with Livan Hernandez personally. He sucks but he’s a reliable innings eater. I believe he pitches just as deep as Millwood in terms IP per start. And he’ll be cheap.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Injuries and/or ineffectiveness will create innings.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
IF everybody makes it through spring training healthy, I’m guessing the rotation will go: Millwood, Marquis, Guthrie, 3E with Matusz and Tillman sitting in the pen until a fifth starter is needed.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
That really doens't make any sense
why abandon the plan of arms development for Jason Fing Marquis?
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Yeah I don't like it either.
We have Hernandez and Berken as fallbacks if people get hurt and arrieta to the rescue midway through the season. Why stockpile mediocre starters to take the place of young studs?
why abandon the plan of arms development for Jason Fing Marquis?
Because that rotation won’t remain stable due to injuries and/or ineffectiveness. Matusz and Tillman will pitch 180-200 innings provided they stay healthy.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Right, but Arrieta is supposed to be ready by mid-season
so we’re still stuck with 6-7 starters for 5 spots.
Again, injuries and ineffectiveness will create openings. Well, hopefully. Not to mention, Millwood and Marquis can be traded.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
"Hopefully"
there are no injuries and no ineffectiveness.
The more I think about this, the more it seems like the Orioles probably talked briefly about Marquis before the Millwood trade and now his agent is using the Orioles as media leverage. It really, really doesn’t make sense to sign another starter on top of Bedard*
*I really have to stop assuming we already signed Bedard. This situation is just going to break my heart.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
there are no injuries and no ineffectiveness.
If there no injuries and everyone is effective, I’m guessing Millwood and Marquis will be traded fast. I’ve haven’t seen anything to suggest that Andy plans on burying Matusz and Tillman in the pen.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
"and no ineffectiveness"
this is the orioles we’re talking about. ineffectiveness has been the personal motto for many of our players.
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just saying, that's what you should be hoping for
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
haha i know
i just thought that was funny
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
agreed
i hated it when we traded him. now that we’ve got a chance to get him back, i want us all over that.
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
I loved Bedard and all
but there is no way I hated it when we traded him for AJ, Tillman, Sherrill, Kam, and Butler.
I don't know man.
You’re telling me we should acquire two expensive mediocre starters in the hopes that at least 1 and maybe two of your younger stud pitchers will get hurt or be ineffective? I don’t like that thinking.
You’re telling me we should acquire two expensive mediocre starters in the hopes that at least 1 and maybe two of your younger stud pitchers will get hurt or be ineffective?
I’m not telling you anything. I’m just making a guess into what I think Andy is thinking. As you know, I was rather indifferent towards getting Millwood and I just said I don’t like Marquis.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
My guess is
he was interested pre-Millwood, and not so much anymore.
Everyone, be calm.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
My guess is he was interested pre-Millwood, and not so much anymore.
That’s not true. Andy has said explicitly that he’s looking for another starter.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
I mean
he isn’t interested in Marquis anymore. I think he’s interested in Bedard, Sheets, or Duchscherer still.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
i wouldnt be opposed to bedard and one other
if the goal is to trade that other when bedard is healthy enough to pitch. i also wouldnt be opposed to marquis pitching out of the pen (he’ll likely be too expensive for that) and letting berken pitch at AAA.
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
We have
Millwood, Guthrie, 3E1N, Matusz, and Tillman as the most likely opening day staff, right?
If we add Bedard or whoever, it serves as insurance (or more insurance) since who knows when he’ll be ready and how good they’ll be.
If we add anyone else, someone (Bergesen?) gets pushed out of the way – and if that someone is a guy like Marquis, whose biggest asset is eating innings, then whoever gets pushed is likely pushed until someone gets hurt.
I’m not saying I don’t like the depth, but if we don’t give as many big-league innings as possible to all of our young guys, all it does is delay when they’ll reach their full potential while the Orioles are busy winning 79 games with the innings eaters.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Sheets
is reportedly wanting pre-injury money. Pass on that.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
What type of sense? It makes sense in that it’s possible to get Matusz and Tillman 190 IPs while starting the year in the pen. It doesn’t make much sense to me to get Millwood or Marquis in the first place.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
It'd be really unlikely
asking two rookies to average 7 innings per start is asking a hell of a lot.
see below.
And it’s 6 2/3 IP per start if you get 15 IP in the pen in april.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
still a ton to ask
remember that only 19 pitchers threw more innings that Millwood in the AL and he averaged 6.1 innings per start.
well, we’re talking about an average so total IP is irrelevant.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
yeah
remember how long rich hill and adam eaton lasted this year?
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
But you should enter the season
in which you do not plan on seriously contending, with the stated goal of “Get Tillman and Matusz in particular as many innings as their arms will allow so they can become better and make adjustments to the majors for next year”. If you’re signing upwards of three starters, you’re knocking potentially both of them out of the rotation and either into AAA or the bullpen, both places where what I believe the stated goal needs to be cannot be fulfilled.
You can’t sign Marquis to be the backup plan, so instead Tillman becomes the backup plan, but now your plan resembles “win now” which these Orioles – even with Jason Marquis – simply aren’t capable of.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
with the stated goal of "Get Tillman and Matusz in particular as many innings as their arms will allow so they can become better and make adjustments to the majors for next year".
Tillman and Matusz can reach 190 IP starting the year in the pen.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Really? Really?
A healthy full year from a starter is 30ish starts, which is anywhere from 150-180 innings. If the kids start the year in the ‘pen for a month or more it’ll be tricky to get them to 150 innings, not to mention the headache of ramping them up, and the increased injury risks associated with said ramping up.
And all of this fails to mention that they both already have a small amount of starting experience at this level. Why move them back now? I understand the opening was there that had to be filled by someone, but now that they’ve started games, let them start games.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Let’s say a starter racks up in 15 innings in the pen in April. There will be five months left in the season plus maybe one start in October. Assuming 5 starts a month and one start in October, that’s 26 starts. I’m personally happy with Matusz and Tilllman reach 170 IP this year but let’s shoot for 180. That’s 165 IP left divided by 26 starts. That’s 6 1/3 IP per start to make that 180 goal.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
And for rookies
that’s kind of a lofty goal, isn’t it?
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Not sure.
Show me the data. This is perfectly reasonable empirical question.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
And by that I mean, what’s the average IP per start for a pitcher of Matusz’s and Tillman’s caliber and experience?
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Well, that I don't know
but I can give a couple of examples I suppose (all from 2009).
David Price went 5.58 IP/S
Brad Bergesen went 6.49 IP/S
Trevor Cahill went 5.58
Tommy Hanson went 6.08
Rick Porcello went 5.51
Ricky Romero went 6.14
I mean, that’s a thin slice, but it seems like a lot of things would have to go right to even touch 6.33 innings per start.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Wasn’t Tillman, Matusz, Porcello, Hanson, Cahill and 3E on a very small pitch counts (like 90) since they were all rookies? Now that they’ve had their feet wet, I’m assuming their pitch count is a bit higher now.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
I have no idea
but some small digging seems to say that the league average of innings per start is around 6.0…but I need to look this shit up somewhere concrete.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Besides, let’s say they average 6 innings per start after a short stint in the BP to start the year. So they’ll reach 170 IP if they pitch 14 IP in April. Is 170 IP so bad? I would prefer about 180 IP, but I’m not going to get pissed if Tilllman and Matusz only pitch 170 or even 165 IP.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
I care less about the innings than
the transition to bullpen from starter and then back to starter. It really is a completely different thing and at this stage in their career I would think you want as much continuity and developing of routine as possible.
If they put them in the bullpen they really should use them only in situations where they can basically treat it as a start. Know exactly when they’re going to go in, start an inning, have a set number of pitchers (total and per inning) and stick to it, and have a schedule of which days they are going to pitch and which they aren’t so they can basically do starter running/throwing in between.
this
The question is how do they benefit from being removed from the rotation and put in the bullpen for a month?
I don’t see much benefit for them in that scenario, and I do see a lot of risk on their development and on their arms, and besides its deviating from Andy MacPhail’s “The Plan”, which we’ve been working on for two whole years now. There’s no reason to deviate right now.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
The question is how do they benefit from being removed from the rotation and put in the bullpen for a month?
It’s the Earl Weaver way. The Twins do it all the time. A short stint in the BP isn’t gong to harm a young starter at all. And Andy isn’t deviating from the plan at all. Andy realizes that you rarely use the same five starters for the ENTIRE season. You really need a couple of extra starters to get through the season. The young guys will get their innings in.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Just curious
What are you basing this on?
A short stint in the BP isn’t gong to harm a young starter at all.
The fact that you can name 5-6 guys who have done it and not gotten injured?
For example, Guthrie didn’t make it to the make rotation until May and still racked up 175 IP while spending time on the DL late in the season.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Don't confuse the exception for the rule
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
It’s not the exception. it’s mathematically possible to reach 190 IP while sitting in the pen in April.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
It's still an awfully tall order
for rookies
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
I mean potentially come July
We would have:
Guthrie
Millwood
Bergesen
Matusz
Tillman
Marquis
Arrieta
Not to mention Hernandez and Berken in the BP.
when is he supposed to be able to pitch again?
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
I've heard as soon as mid-April
But also as late as mid-June, so who knows. I’d be more pleased with signing Bedard since it allows 3E, Matusz and Tillman to stay in the rotation, and if something happens injury-wise, Bedard can jump right in. Plus, his ceiling is way higher than Marquis’.
We need to go get that motherscratcher...
…Erique “The Freak” Bedard. That canuck was made to don the black and orange.
Please no Marquis or Livan
Millwood is ok, but no more “veteran” “innings eaters”. Millwood, Guthrie, Matusz, Tillman and Bergesen is a pretty good rotation. I can’t see sitting any of them for Marquis or Livan Hernandez. Bedard would make good insurance. IF Bedard is healthy and ready to pitch every fifth day, get rid of Millwood or Guthrie. Arrieta may be ready by mid season as well. No more tired old arms, please! Try D.Hernandez in the bullpen unless he is traded.
any chance arrieta or matusz throws long relief to start?
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
yeah...I meant more like in July...
or maybe the entire year if we ended up with Marquis. I’d rather not have Marquis though.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
the old days
When we had pitching depth, Weaver would allow young pitchers to get their feet wet by putting them in the bullpen. This was a good system. I would like to see Arrieta and other young pitchers start out in the pen.
the old days are the old days
I don’t think taking a guy who’s always been a starter and putting him in the bullpen makes any sense if you want him to be a starter long term. It’s a totally different routine, training, warmup, and approach.
ummm, bullshit
pitchers are way to precious about that. if a kid spends some time in the bullpen learning to pitch on 15 minutes’ notice while also going a few days without pitching, and then sometimes pitching two nights in a row, it will teach him that he can’t get too attached to any magic “routine”, and will teach him more about his body. that same kid is starting later in the year, and a rain delay happens, or the other team has a really long inning, he’s better prepared.
in case you didn’t notice, the old days were mighty successful for the birds.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
* "too", not "to", in the first line
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
their precious about it for a reason
It’s called the UCL, the labrum, and the rotator cuff. No offense, but based on what you just wrote you obviously have no idea the different strains that relieving and starting puts on your arm and the different ways you have to train for the roles. I don’t know why you put routine in quotations marks – a pitcher’s routine is incredibly important to both their success and their health. Starting after a rain delay is not even remotely similar to relieving. Not sure where you’re going with that.
As to your last point…so because they were successful 30 years ago they should go back to doing things that EVERYBODY has stopped doing because they don’t make sense?
No offense, but based on what you just wrote you obviously have no idea the different strains that relieving and starting puts on your arm and the different ways you have to train for the roles.
What an ignorant and inflammatory accusation.
Of course I have some idea about these things. I’ve followed baseball closely for 30 years. I’m sure I don’t have as much as you, since I never pitched. That doesn’t mean my opinion is invalid.
I’m not saying throw guys out there willy-nilly. I’m not advocating that trainers not be involved, or that we court unnecessary injuries. I’m saying that some people, and you sound like one of them, get WAY too attached to roles and routines for players. Tippy Martinez, as was discussed the other day, had a ten-year career where he started, pitched long relief, and pitched short relief. Putting a kid in the bullpen and making him a starter later on is not controversial from an injury standpoint. We’re not talking about changing his role every day. We’re talking about a period of time where the kid acclimates and shakes off the jitters, and then gets transitioned to a larger role. Particularly since kids often come up short of the innings experience they need, it makes a lot of sense.
I can guarantee you that every AAA starter on every team in the majors would jump at the chance to be in the bullpen at the ML level for 3 months if it was a choice between that and staying at AAA. Every. Single. One.
Starting after a rain delay and relieving are similar, in that they are both a departure from a regular start where a player knows exactly when he’ll start pitching and can adhere to a time-worn routine. So in both situations, you see how a player performs when he does have time time to warm up properly, but does not get all of the mental preparation that he normally gets. As I’m sure you’re aware, a large part of pitching is mental. If you send the message repeatedly that you need to do A, B, C, and D, in the same exact order, before you can pitch successfully, then a kid will believe it.
As to your last point…so because they were successful 30 years ago they should go back to doing things that EVERYBODY has stopped doing because they don’t make sense?
Umm, no. I never said this. I’d say here, “not worthy of a response”, except then you’d jump down my throat in the past for “responding” by saying that.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
Of course I have some idea about these things. I’ve followed baseball closely for 30 years. I’m sure I don’t have as much as you, since I never pitched. That doesn’t mean my opinion is invalid.
Of course it doesn’t mean your opinion isn’t valid – it’s a perfectly valid opinion – it just happens to be wrong. When you take a pitcher who’s been a starter his entire life (as these guys have) and put them in the bullpen, they change their training program, their warm up program, their intensity, and their approach. It just doesn’t make any sense if you want them to be a starter long term. Not to mention that when you change that many things, as a pitcher, it’s really hard to keep your mechanics consistent and slight changes in mechanics combined with all those other changes that I mentioned are recipes for injuries. The goal is to keep these pitchers healthy correct? Why risk it by putting them in the bullpen for even a little while?
As far as Tippy Martinez – you can name plenty of exceptions. That doesn’t make it a good idea. Would you teach your kid to pitch like Tim Lincecum just because he hasn’t gotten hurt yet?
Who gives a shit whether a AAA pitcher would jump at the chance to pitch in the bullpen for a major league team? That doesn’t make it a good idea! I think you’ll probably agree that lots of guys will do things that aren’t good for them in order to get to and succeed in the majors. If you’re trying to develop players for the long run though it just doesn’t make any sense to screw with training regimins, throwing/running routine, and mental/physical approaches to pitching.
Starting after a rain delay is not at all close to relieving. When play is resumed after a rain delay, pitchers are given ample time to warm up – which does not happen as a reliever. Starters after a rain delay can go through their EXACT pregame warm up. Not sure where that’s coming from.
Not sure how you didn’t understand my last sentence, but I was simply saying that just because the orioles succeeded 30 years ago at a time when everybody was doing certain things, that everybody has since stopped doing because they weren’t good ideas, does not mean we should return to them.
If you’re trying to develop players for the long run though it just doesn’t make any sense to screw with training regimins, throwing/running routine, and mental/physical approaches to pitching.
This is exactly where you and I differ. Developing raw players into major leaguers involves screwing with all of these things.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
it sure is a lot simpler
than UZR and zips and war and whatever else fangraphs dreams up.
by twistedlogic on Dec 12, 2009 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
Urge to kill
rising…
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
there would be some advantages.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
To judging players based on things they don't have control over? I don't see any...
except simplicity and ignorance for viewers/GMs, etc.
nope
1st of all, players have control over averages, and some control over HR and RBI. I would never advocate judging on W/L.
2nd, the advantages would be that other, less quantifiable factors would be given some weight. I think that’s a good thing.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
I don’t think taking a guy who’s always been a starter and putting him in the bullpen makes any sense if you want him to be a starter long term. It’s a totally different routine, training, warmup, and approach.
This is the standard approach for Twins. That is, young starters typically have a short stint in the pen before moving into the rotation.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Come on dawg, you’re going to cherry pick one pitcher? How Johan hold up? How did the vast majority of Twins pitchers hold up?
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Kind of like you throwing out Tippy Martinez? Cuts both ways my friend.
You can’t say that things worked well because of one player 30 years ago and because one franchise still does it regularly (even though out of their 2 biggest star pitchers in the last ten years, one had a catastrophic injury…).
Bedard has had a potentially career-ending injury
How much time did he spend in the ’pen?
Oh, right…..
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
Sorry
I think ZK threw out Tippy Martinez. I’m just saying pointing to one player or one franchise to say that a technique of grooming pitchers is good doesn’t make any sense. Especially in the case of the Twins when I don’t think it’s worked that well at all.
Huh? The Twins are probably one of the top 3 or 4 franchises in terms of drafting and developing pitchers. It’s not the only way to develop young pitchers….
Anyways, this conversation is soooo typical you. In all my years here, I’ve never seen any who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge anybody’s view point but his own more than you.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
What?
Santana and Liriano were easily their two biggest pitching prospects of the last 10 years and one of them had a catastrophic arm injury. That’s all I said.
I’m happy to concede other people’s views – I just don’t think anybody’s made a good argument here that taking a guy who’s been a starter his whole life, putting him in the bullpen, and then moving him back to the rotation makes any sense from a development standpoint. The fact that Twins do it I do not find convincing.
Santana and Liriano were easily their two biggest pitching prospects of the last 10 years and one of them had a catastrophic arm injury. That’s all I said.
I don’t know what’s the point in talking with you but I’ll go ahead. Sure, Liriano had TJ surgery. But the Twins have been using a homegrown pitching staff forever. They rarely dip into the free agent pool for pitchers. So, and I imagine you won’t acknowledge the validity of this point but I’ll go ahead, as a whole they have developed many pitchers over the years using their method. It can be done as seen by many of their pitchers they have developed. I don’t see why because it’s one franchise matters in this case. We’re not talking about franchises here. We’re talking about pitchers. And across many cases, their method works.
I’m happy to concede other people’s views
I HAVE NEVER SEEN YOU DO THIS.
The fact that Twins do it I do not find convincing.
Of course, you don’t. The fact that it’s been done before successfully many times before outside of the Twins doesn’t matter to you either. You have point and you’re going to stick to your guns till your last breath.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
But the Twins have been using a homegrown pitching staff forever.
I’ll take your word for it – all I know is that the two most prominent guys they’ve done it with are Liriano and Santana and one of them had one of the worst arm injuries you can have and still haven’t returned to form. Who else have they done it with that hasn’t gotten hurt ever?
I HAVE NEVER SEEN YOU DO THIS.
Not sure why the caps were required there, but when somebody finally explained UZR to me (in that it’s only useful in assessing a player over a long period of time – more than one season) I happily conceded that it wasn’t a horrible worthless statistic which was my original position (based on the fact that it said Luke Scott was a good LF).
The fact that it’s been done before successfully many times before outside of the Twins doesn’t matter to you either.
Again, the fact that it has been successful for some pitchers and some organizations – why does that mean that it SHOULD be done? Were Liriano or Santana better for having spent time in the bullpen? Who the hell knows – do you know? I have no idea, but I know that tinkering with people’s training programs, warm-up routines, days off, throwing programs, and mental approaches when they’ve been doing them as a starter for their entire baseball lives just doesn’t make much sense if you want them to be starters for the long run. I just don’t see the point at all. If you want to limit their pitches then do it. If you want to limit their innings/starts/whatever then do it. But why move them into an entirely different role?
This may sound crazy
but I’m sort of excited to see what Hernandez/Berken can do out of the bullpen. I know they were brutal in the rotation but they both have plenty of stuff to go through a lineup once.
I'm with you
if they’re going to be effective at all, they’ll be effective out of the bullpen.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
Roch on Marquis
Probably not. I agree.
I wonder how much of these rumors are the result of mistimed info, like we were looking at Marquis before getting Millwood, and then Marquis agent mentions the O’s, and suddenly, we’re ready to start trading off young starters.
I see us getting a Bedard type that isn’t ready for OD, but may be able to be worked in, through the bullpen or taking over a starter spot that isn’t working out after a couple months.
i absolutely hate studying for finals
i dont really give a shit about “linear statistical models” anymore (not that i ever did really)
now i know why you hate fangraphs.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
exactly
they try to teach us that there is a statistic for everything in that class.
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
good.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
But 85% of the time they're right
Ignoring the 15% outlier and 26% margin of error.
by Dr Orpheus on Dec 12, 2009 8:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
awesome.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
this is the first year in a long time
that I’m cramming or writing right now. Let me tell you: it feels great.
i'm cramming and it does not feel great
actually, i’m on camden chat and sporcle……yep, i know how to study. its not like i didnt sporcle all semester in this class anyways
by twistedlogic on Dec 11, 2009 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
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