Tuesday Bird Droppings
by Camden Chat on Dec 22, 2009 7:00 AM EST
in Open Threads
153 comments
Orioles News
Atkins on the way
Garrett Atkins should be taking his physical in Baltimore today, which means he'll officially be an O by this evening. Try to contain your excitement. -Stacey
Orioles taking steps in the right direction
USA Today has nice things to say about the Orioles. It's good to hear but consider me skeptical of a writer who says, "Kevin Millwood isn't going to win another ERA title like he did in 2005 with the Indians, but he will give the O's a genuine No. 1 starter to battle the rest of the aces in the division." -Stacey
Trading Places
Per ACTA sports, the Orioles are the fifth best trading team of the 20th century. Check out Roch's post for the five best and five worst O's trades of the 20th century. -Stacey
Hot Stove Action
Ryota Igarashi to the Mets
The Mets signed the Japanese reliever to a 2 year, $3M contract. Igarashi hopes to be Frankie Rodriguez's setup man. -Stacey
Nats agree to two-year deal with Jason Marquis
The Nats signed Marquis for two years, $15M. So...good for them? I don't know. It's the Nats. -Stacey
Darren Oliver close to signing with Texas
The deal is for 1 year, $3.5M with an option for 2011. -Stacey
Indians Acquire Mitch Talbot; Sign Saul Rivera
The Indians received Mitch Talbot from the Rays for Kelly Shoppach and signed Saul Rivera to a minor league deal. -Stacey
Pitching options dwindling for Mets | MLB.com: News
Woe are the Mets! Nobody wants to play for them other than the deluded Japanese guy who thinks they're good. I'm sorry but the Mets crack me up. -Stacey
Yanks hit with $25.7M luxury tax
The Yankees are the only team to have to pay the luxury tax this year. The tax, combined with their payroll, means that the Yankees paid $245.7M for their World Series winning team in 2009, which is over $100M than the next closest team. -Stacey
I never thought it was such a bad little Open Thread. It's not bad at all, really. Maybe it just needs a little love.
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3 down, one to go?
There were 4 items on the shopping list this off season, as I understood it. #1 a veteran starting pitcher; #2 a closer; #3 a corner infielder; and #4 a cleanup hitter. Looks to me like McPhail and company have filled our shopping basket with the first three items even if there are questions and complaints about which specific items he chose. One more item on that list: A power bat to hit cleanup.
McPhail is letting the market settle and taking a Christmas break from his shopping spree. Could it be that he is waiting to see if Carlos Delgado can actually play 1B in the winter leagues in the Carribean before offering that job to him on the Orioles? Not a bad idea, actually. Wait and see if the man can still play and hit. He was injured last year.
Actually I would rather trade for a prospect
There are a few teams who have power hitting first base prospects in the minors. Some of them are actually almost ready for MLB. I would prefer that the Orioles trade for a premium power hitting prospect to blossum with the rest of the Orioles young buds. Someone like Justin Smoak from Texas. Hell, San Diego has a young 1B that is blocked out there by AGonz. They are planning to play him in RF this year. We have a plethora of outfielders. Wouldn’t a trade make sense? Let’s get a power hitting first baseman that can stay with the Orioles for five or six years. Snyder, Aubrey, Hughes are not ever going to be power hitters.
I agree. However, I think the Padres are going to trade A-Gonz before any of those prospects. On the other hand they do have a plethora of corner in and outfielders. On the other hand, does this team really need power at first?
With the power we have in the outfield and potentially at catcher I think the O’s are okay with a guy like Snyder at first. Plus it gives them some flexibility to play Wieters at first a bit to save his knees.
by Garyland1177 on Dec 22, 2009 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
Did anyone see what the redskins did on MNF
With that weird formation at the of the first half. It might’ve been the strangest play in NFL history.
Don't give up, don't ever give up. - Jim Valvano
by BaltimoreSportsFan on Dec 22, 2009 9:31 AM EST reply actions
The "swinging gate" I think Tirico called it.
LOL… nothing like a place holder lobbing the ball up in a pack of 14 guys.
I was cracking up. I mean, if you have the element of suprise do it… but the Giants called a timeout and they ran it again. Unreal….
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 22, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
Agree it was retarded
but the place holder that you’re talking about has already thrown for one TD this year – it’s not like he’s a non-athlete. That’s not the part that made it retarded.
I think the part that made bloody awful...
Was the fact that they tried for the element of suprise… Giants called a TO and surely discussed it… they come out and do the EXACT SAME THING…. I mean, that play had a 1% chance of happening. I wouldve at least ran the kicker out to the right and tried to toss it over to him instead of throwing it in that cluster($&@.
Oh well… ladies and gentleman, your 2009 Redskins…
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 22, 2009 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Just let Campbell throw it
I mean, you really think the place holder has a better shot in that situation than your QB with actual recievers to throw to? Amazing.
we ran the swinging gate
in high school. but we did it only on extra points, every time, and everyone started on the left and shifted to the center. sometimes you could quick snap to the holder or kicker and your snapper was eligible.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
Ugh
Yeah I found a link: http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=2528
Joel Sherman of the New York Post has confirmed that the Yankees have acquired Javier Vazquez and LHP Boone Logan from the Braves for outfielder Melky Cabrera, LHP Mike Dunn and RHP Arodys Vizcaino.
The deal is basically complete, and only pending physicals from all five players involved. Vizcaino, 19, manged a 2.13 ERA in 10 starts (42 1/3 innings) at the Single-A level this year and has major upside. Dunn is also a quality young hurler and Cabrera fills a hole for Atlanta, but the Yankees just landed a top-line starter and now have the opportunity to significantly improve their club with a hard-hitting free agent outfielder like Matt Holliday or Jason Bay. It must be nice to have a limitless budget.
Yankees starting rotation in 2010
CC Sabathia $23M
AJ Burnett $16.5M
Javier Vazquez $11.5M
Andy Pettitte $11.75M
Joba Chamberlain ~$500K
Hard to say definitely
Because the salaries for the pre-FA players for next year haven’t been determined. I’d say somewhere in the high $50M. Here is the Cots spreadsheet: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=t50_b9iaARDxOK6TPjab3gQ&output=html
that just nuts
Don't give up, don't ever give up. - Jim Valvano
by BaltimoreSportsFan on Dec 22, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
The Yankees are MLB's meal ticket
I highly doubt them winning all the time and paying higher luxury taxes is going to make MLB change a thing. Big markets keep winning and players keep earning more. You think MLB or it’s players association really give a crap about anything else? I dont.
Well
What happens when people get so fed up that they stop watching. Oh wait….I should have reached that level already. Baseball, why do you have such a hold on me….
"Real Orioles don't pout. Real Orioles don't gloat. Real Orioles just win."
by NewYorkOriole on Dec 22, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
we, as o’s fans, are the most negatively effected fan base as we have been the worst team in a division dominated by money. If we are still watching, who else is gonna stop?
It's sad really....
I just hate New York sports..all of it. As I’ve said before on this site – I don’t watch football and have no real interest in it (my gf is a Ravens fan so I’ll watch games with her – and root for the Steelers just to tick her off hehe). But when I moved here and started listening to the New York radio sports jerks talk about their football teams…I hope all those stinkin New York football teams lose. (sorry Dave! :-) ) Not to mention how the New York media sets someone up with artificial hype and then tears them down when they don’t meet the hype that they created, a la that Sanchez guy on the Jets. Guess what, he’s a rookie, not Johnny-freakin-Unitas. Give him a couple years….
I also can’t stand just how much New Yorkers think they’re the center of the world….it’s so pathetic it’s funny….I just wish they could see themselves from an outside perspective…….
"Real Orioles don't pout. Real Orioles don't gloat. Real Orioles just win."
by NewYorkOriole on Dec 22, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
I honestly agree with you
I hate most Giants fans. I only root for the Giants because they play in NJ, but that doesn’t mean I get along with most other Giants fans or like the media around the team. The thing with the Jets is a joke too. Alot of the smarter local media guys have been saying this is a building year all along and are actually quite happy with the season, but you have a few guys and a ton of fans tearing down the team and it’s idiotic. Then again, there are plenty of O’s fans that have bashed on the rebuilding process as well.
That's true....
Those O’s fans make me so angry……
"Real Orioles don't pout. Real Orioles don't gloat. Real Orioles just win."
by NewYorkOriole on Dec 22, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
That's just what a friend and I were talking about last night
I heard a rumor they were going after Vazquez and when I told him he said, “If that happens, I’m done. What’s the point?”
Hard to argue.
They'll probably go get Johnny sadsack Damon back now
Now they have three number one caliber pitchers, and they had to give up Melky Cabrera and two minor leaguers? That’s like the Orioles trading Felix Pie and Brandon Erbe for Dan Haren. That’s how ridiculous this trade looks.
It’s starting to be like a damn broken record: every Christmas the Yankees do something to remind me that I fucking hate major league baseball.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
I am going to kick the living bejesus out of the first MFY fan I see!
by sickuvitall on Dec 22, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
I'm having an argument with one right now
He got all defensive when I pointed out that the yankees rotation would make more than the O’s whole team next year. “Do you think that makes me upset? Maybe that just means that the O’s need to make more of an investment. Is there any reason they can’t sign Holliday?” Fucking dbag piece of shit.
The shitty thing is
he’s kinda right. Why should he be upset as a fan? It pisses me right off, and I think how it’s set up is wrong, but if I was a Yankee fan I would love the signing and there’s no way in hell i’d make apologies for it. It’s a sign that there’s something wrong with MLB, not with the Yankees.
However, saying “the O’s need to make more of an investment” is idiotic. There will never be a revenue stream for the O’s like there is for the Yankees. Thats just a product of the market they are in. I don’t blame the O’s for not spending like the Yanks anymore than I blame the Yanks for not spending like the O’s. Ya work with what ya got. Unfortunately, the Yankees get alot more to work with and MLB thinks thats plenty fair.
Well he shouldn't be upset as a fan
but he shoudl be able to see the absurdity of it, no? I’m not necessarily pissed AT the yankees. I’mpissed that the system is set up to allow them to do this. He’s acting like the O’s have a problem.
Totally agree...
I sympathize with “what do you expect us to do… not sign player?”…. but I DONT AT ALL sympathize with the guys that act like its ALL OUR PROBLEM… sure we’ve had our share of dumb moves but there is no denying the deck is stacked and anyone that says so is absurd.
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 22, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
these offseason moves make more sense
when you realize that we are the fucking dogs left to lick up the crumbs that fall from the table. its the only chance we have at signing anyone
by twistedlogic on Dec 22, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
My other point to him
was what’s even the point of signing holliday? From a financial perspective (if you cared about Petey’s money which I don’t), does it make any sense to give a guy $20 M per year when he’s almost definitely not going to help you make the playoffs because the two teams up North will just buy whatever players are required to keep us in the basement?
The point of signing Holliday is that the Yankees can be beaten
In fact, if Jeter ever slows down they will be ripe for it. At the end of the day, he’s the key to their success. The Red Sox will spend more than our entire payroll less than the Yankees. They beat them. We’re paying the entire Rays payroll for Millwood, Roberts, Markakis, Gonzalez and Atkins. They beat the Yankees too.
Will they?
They’ll still have Arod, Texeira, Cano, and now Granderson in their primes. And they’ll still have an incredible rotation.
And my bigger point is that even if we sign him and Jeter becomes bad and Posada becomes bad and Rivera becomes bad, they have an unlimited budget, so they’ll just go out and sign the best FAs at each of those positions and we’ll still be looking up at them.
Cano isn't that good, first off...
…and neither is their rotation. Yes, Sabathia is awesome. But Burnett’s pretty ordinary and is rarely healthy, Vazquez is coming from the NL East in a pitcher’s park to the new Yankee Stadium, and Pettite is a league average pitcher by the numbers.
Meanwhile, my bigger point is that you can’t just buy the best FAs at each of those positions. The Red Sox have tried, year after year, and ended up with folks like Julio Lugo and Marco Scutaro. There are very, very few great shortstops and great catchers. There were five teams who could have taken Jeter if they were willing to pay a mere $1 million for his signing bonus.
Some things you will lose to the Yankees over money, there is no doubt about that. On the other hand, having the Yankees’ money usually results in their working without a plan, figuring the money will save them. Our problem isn’t the things we lose to the Yankees over money; it is the things we give away.
He isn't?
He had an OPS+ of 130 last year and a career OPS (counting his horrible 2008) of 113. That strikes me as pretty damn good.
How have they tried to buy the best FAs at each of those positions? You think Marco Scutaro was the best 3B available this year? He wasn’t even close. If they were buying the best FAs they would have gotten figgins or beltre.
As far as great catchers, there’s a guy named Mauer who the Yanks will be signing next year.
Scutaro is a shortstop
Yes, there are very good third basemen on the market this year. There often are. Which is why matching A-Rod at third isn’t nearly has hard as matching Jeter at short.
Roberts has had an OPS+ of over 110 each of the past three seasons. I’m not saying that Cano sucks, but he’s not that special. There is a glut of quality second basemen out there on the market right now – Orlando Hudson, Felipe Lopez, Dan Uggla – and all of them, like Roberts, give you something not that far from what Cano brings the Yanks.
I don’t think Mauer is going anywhere. If he does, that will suck, although great catchers rarely last long. But let’s be clear – I’m not saying that beating the Yankees isn’t hard. But it is quite doable, as long as you have the ambition and will. In 2008, the Mariners were the worst team in the AL, and had just sent the cream of their organization to us. They are the favorites now in their division in 2010.
It is within our grasp. We just have to figure out what it will take, and fucking do it.
Yeah my bad
was thinking 3B.
129 is really much better than 110 though. He’s also much younger. He’s a dramatically better player – as much as I love BRob.
I guess it’s within our grasp. I just think that whenever we get close, they’ll just spend that much more to keep us away.
To a degree
When you look at it in terms of WAR, the difference isn’t that stark – Cano posted a WAR of 4.4 and Roberts 3.4. Five of the eight best 2b in the game last year were in the AL East, and Cano was only the third best.
The Yankees spend a ton of money, but they generally don’t spend it very well. The problem is that generally, we don’t spend our money well at all. If we decide to spend more wisely, I think we have a good shot.
they don't need to spend it well though
If one signing ever doesn’t work out they’ll just make two more!
by O'sFan21 on Dec 22, 2009 5:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I tend to like this guy's approach.
Tampa really caught lightning in a bottle though…
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 22, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
yea fuck that
they bought a WS last year. why not buy another one this year? goddamn those fucking pieces of shit. a combination of our best players dont even make the yankees fucking luxury tax.
by twistedlogic on Dec 22, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
he also made a comment
that their luxury tax helps shitty teams like ours. Yeah it’s a real fucking help.
Did you get on your knees and kiss his hand
obviously its a gracious offering on his part. You should be grateful. He gets a WS and we can pay a player the league minimum for a year with the money we get from the luxury tax! Yay!
haha
damn that would have been much more thoughtful than what I said, which was something along the lines of “Oh fuck off you fucking douche – you think that fucking chump change does anything?” haha
I hate the luxury tax
Because the uber-rich like the Yankees don’t give a crap, they spend what they want. But just a regular rich team has to make sure they don’t go over the threshold because their payroll plus the tax would be too much for them. It just lets the Yankees have an even bigger gap to the rest of the league.
You know not one penny of the luxury tax goes to teams directly...
I researched this one day… it goes to an MLB pot.
Some money goes to teams but thats a separate thing – revenue sharing which is different than the luxury tax (as I understand it).
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 22, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
But not all teams use it on players.
Don't give up, don't ever give up. - Jim Valvano
by BaltimoreSportsFan on Dec 22, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
The Marlins have a policy
of keeping their entire payroll under what they get from MLB in revenue sharing. They’re making money before they sell a single ticket.
"The moment you stop thinking you're the best, it's time for you to get out the game." -'King' Mo Lawal
Well yea
but I guess its harder to see it as a problem when you’re benefiting from it. Him thinking the O’s should just spend more is moronic, but he’s right to not be upset by the fact that the Yanks 3B and #1 starter will make more than the O’s whole team.
If we ever do find a way
to compete and then surpass this conglomerate of assfaces, it will be that much sweeter knowing that we did it with WAY LESSto work with. Tampa fans can relate…they almost did it. But now just a few years later they are right back to a solid 2nd or 3rd place team.
This shit is just depressing.
by sickuvitall on Dec 22, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Tampa has fans?
I keep telling myself that it’ll be that much more awesome when it happens, but it’s really an “if” rather than a “when”. It seems very likely that this could go on for quite a while.
We gotta take heart in the small victories...
When we get over .500 for the first time… to me, it’ll feel like a World Series victory.
Once we get there, we can set new goals.
COME ON EVERYONE…. ITS CHRISTMAS!!!
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 22, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah me too.
Honestly just having a semi-competitive team will be huge for me. I don’t know if I want to admit that on here or whoever it was will start yelling at me about low expectations again. JPops I think. I don’t want to get schooled again…
If I can say...
“well, we have a realistic shot of making the playoffs”, i’ll be happy. I dont need them to be a favorite every year, or really ever. As lomg as there is some chance that they can make the playoffs, then i’m happy and the season isnt meaningless.
And if anyone wants to bash on that, too bad. It’s entertainment. Thats what it would take for me to get some kind of real consistent joy from my entertainment. If it takes more for you, well, sucks to be you.
When we get over .500 for the first time… to me, it’ll feel like a World Series victory.
Once we get there, we can set new goals.
100% agree.
me too damn it!
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
I’m surprised the O’s didn’t get on this deal even after Millwood but especially before. Maybe something like Pie, Hernandez, and Ray could have worked.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
I would imagine
it’s because Vazquez is only under contract for 2010 and giving up those three guys probably wouldn’t be worth it.
Millwood is only under contract for 2010!
And Andy is caught up in winning in 2010 as the Millwood deal shows. If you want to win in 2010, you have to acquire good players.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Fine. Trembley is being judged on wins and losses this year.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Don't get me wrong
An improved record in 2010 is a goal, Andy said so himself. But “caught up” implies, to me, that Andy is acting irresponsibly in acquiring players in an attempt to win in 2010. Giving up Ray for Millwood gives a boost to 2010 but doesn’t harm 2011 and beyond. Giving up Pie, Ray, and Hernandez for Vaqzuez gives the O’s a bit of a bigger boost in 2010 perhaps, but would harm them beyond that.
But "caught up" implies, to me, that Andy is acting irresponsibly in acquiring players in an attempt to win in 2010.
Fine. Andy is concerned about the win loss record then. And yes, getting Vazquez would cost a greater price long term. But he’s a better pitcher. You have to give up more for good players.
And yes, I’m annoyed about all of this garbage. I’m annoyed that the Yanks got Vazquez on a great deal. But hey, the O’s could have made the same deal but chose not to. And I’m annoyed that Andy is caught up in meaningless wins in 2010. If you want to win in 2010, then go for it Andy.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
“You’re either rebuilding for something special, or you’re on the verge of something special. To be in between is foolish.”-Billy Beane
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Look we just disagree
I don’t think that, for the price we got him, Millwood is detrimental to any rebuliding that is still going on. Is your issue a few more wins that’ll drop the O’s a draft pick? The $9M? That Chris Ray might actually be a difference maker in 2011 and beyond?
Yeah, you have to take your lumps when you’re rebuilding, but you also have to field a team that will hopefully not be a pathetic embarrassment that drives away fans and future free agents.
As far as that vague quote, you could say that the Orioles are on the verge of something special, that being 2011. Is there a hard time limit on “verge?”
Is your issue a few more wins that’ll drop the O’s a draft pick?
Nope. Millwood might cost us a one draft slot. That doesn’t really bother me too much.
The $9M?
A little. But I can live with that.
That Chris Ray might actually be a difference maker in 2011 and beyond?
A little. Ray could easily turn into a good reliever in 2011 and beyond. Good relievers are valuable.
I’m mostly annoyed that Millwood symbolizes that the O’s have taken the “in between” position in Beane’s quote. Either go for wins in 2010 or don’t.
Yeah, you have to take your lumps when you’re rebuilding, but you also have to field a team that will hopefully not be a pathetic embarrassment that drives away fans and future free agents.
That’s already been done!
As far as that vague quote, you could say that the Orioles are on the verge of something special, that being 2011. Is there a hard time limit on "verge?"
What does Millwood have anything to do with 2011? Does he even have an option?
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
A little. Ray could easily turn into a good reliever in 2011 and beyond. Good relievers are valuable.
They are, but they vary so much from year to year that it’s almost impossible to know. Holding on to him just in case he’s good in two years doesn’t seem like it should be a high priority.
That’s already been done!
And there is just no way to turn it around, then? Maybe be fielding a more competitive team in 2010?
What does Millwood have anything to do with 2011? Does he even have an option?
If Millwood gives you a few more wins and that record helps to attract a FA that is looking to see that the O’s have improved, he helps 2011. If Millwood helps save the bullpen from getting burnt out so that the O’s can properly evaluate what they have in there, he helps 2011. If Millwood teaches Chris Tillman a new pitch (a la Benson and Bedard), he helps in 2011.
Maybe all of those things happen. Maybe none of those things happen. But Chris Ray isn’t going to do any of that.
Also, can I go on record as saying I hate that I’m defending Kevin Millwood. I don’t even like him as a pitcher.
They are, but they vary so much from year to year that it’s almost impossible to know. Holding on to him just in case he’s good in two years doesn’t seem like it should be a high priority.
It shouldn’t be high priority. But there’s a chance that Chris Ray will contribute in 2011 and beyond. There’s zero chance that Millwood will contribute 2011 and beyond unless we sign him as a free agent. And we could have done that w/o giving up Ray.
And there is just no way to turn it around, then? Maybe be fielding a more competitive team in 2010?
A .500 team will not bring back fans. A playoff contender will.
If Millwood gives you a few more wins and that record helps to attract a FA that is looking to see that the O’s have improved, he helps 2011.
Like I said, that’s such a miniscule factor that it shouldn’t be a consideration. So let’s say the O’s finish with 75 wins instead of 71. You honestly believe that’ll matter to a free agent.
If Millwood helps save the bullpen from getting burnt out so that the O’s can properly evaluate what they have in there, he helps 2011.
Hernandez can do the same thing.
If Millwood teaches Chris Tillman a new pitch (a la Benson and Bedard), he helps in 2011.
Millwood isn’t a pitching coach. Hernandez has just as much potential to teach Tillman a new pitch.
Also, can I go on record as saying I hate that I’m defending Kevin Millwood. I don’t even like him as a pitcher.
Don’t defend him!
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Sure, but don’t give me this “Millwood can teach Tillman a pitch” line.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
What the fuck
It could happen.
True or false: Kris Benson sucks
True or False: Erik Bedard is awesome
True or False: Erik Bedard credits Kris Benson with teaching him a pitch that made him even more awesome.
and as a side note. Easy E eventually dropped the change up that Benson taught him because his curve ball was so awesome. See his pitch type stats from fangraphs He only used his change 4.9% in 2007 after double digit usage in 2006 and 2005. And now he barely uses it at all.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
shit
i dont know the answers! i’m done with exams already.
by twistedlogic on Dec 22, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
Billy sure has won a ton of WS's with that philosophy too
I’m not saying Vazquez wouldnt have been great, but if he couldnt have been resigned after 2010, he wasnt worth the price. Millwood is better than Livan and only cost Ray. We get a better pitcher than Livan and it doesnt cost what Vasquez would have. If we arent ready to make a run in 2010, but wins still matter, then Millwood sees like the logical choice out of that group.
And wins do matter
It’s a rough jump from 64 wins to 95, I’d say. Not many teams do it. If 64 wins in 09 turns to 80 wins in 2010, you’re probably better poised for 2011.
How are you better poised? In specific, concrete terms. It may make BAL looks a little better to free agents. But that’s about it. And I’m highly doubtful of that even happening. It’s not going to generate good will among fans.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
All I can say is this
I just looked at every single team on baseball reference, and here are the teams who have gone from last to first in two years.
Diamondbacks 1998-1999
Braves 1990-1991
Cubs 2006-2007
Twins 1990-1991
Phillies 1993-1993
Padres 1997-1998
Giants 1996-1997
Rays 2007-2008
That’s in baseball history. I know the alignment is different now which is probably why all of the teams are from the last 20 years, but even if you look at it from the 19 years since 1991, there have been 132 playoff teams (4 each 91-93, 0 in 94, 8 each 95-09). 132 teams, 8 have gotten there by going worst to first. I’d rather give the O’s a greater than 6% chance.
The bottom line is I don’t think Andy MacPhail would do anything to compromise the future competitiveness of this team. If you think he has then like I said, we disagree.
I just looked at every single team on baseball reference, and here are the teams who have gone from last to first in two years.
Fine.. I’m not sure what the point of posting this though. I’m not saying that the O’s HAVE to go from last to first. I’m perfectly happy going from last to 85 wins to first place like the Mariners might do this year. If Andy wants to follow the Jack Z model, I’d be thrilled. In fact, if Jack Z replaced Andy, I’d be even more happy.
Fine.. I’m not sure what the point of posting this though. I’m not saying that the O’s HAVE to go from last to first. I’m perfectly happy going from last to 85 wins to first place like the Mariners might do this year. If Andy wants to follow the Jack Z model, I’d be thrilled. In fact, if Jack Z replaced Andy, I’d be even more happy.
The bottom line is I don’t think Andy MacPhail would do anything to compromise the future competitiveness of this team. If you think he has then like I said, we disagree.
Fine.. I’m not sure what the point of posting this though. I’m not saying that the O’s HAVE to go from last to first. I’m perfectly happy going from last to 85 wins to first place like the Mariners might do this year. If Andy wants to follow the Jack Z model, I’d be thrilled. In fact, if Jack Z replaced Andy, I’d be even more happy.
The bottom line is I don’t think Andy MacPhail would do anything to compromise the future competitiveness of this team. If you think he has then like I said, we disagree.I think the long term damage that Andy has done by the MIllwood trade is minuscule.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
The fans aren’t going to show up until the O’s are in playoff contention, not a .500 team.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
so you're argument
is that until they’re a playoff contender, they should make no efforts to make the team better in the mean time if it doesn’t also contribute to making them a playoff contender? So, they can’t field a decent/better team in the mean time while they develop into the playoff contender?
No to both questions. I endorse acquiring young players with low service time and high upside. And I don’t have a problem with the Atkins signings for example.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
ok
but young players with low service time and high upside are not always available. What starting pitchers would have fit that description? The injured guys like Bedard?
but young players with low service time and high upside are not always available.
But yet, we just traded Chris Ray. Look, again, I’m not pissed about losing Chris Ray. But I would rather have him than Millwood.
What starting pitchers would have fit that description? The injured guys like Bedard?
Bedard doesn’t have low service time. And which guys fit that description. Tons of guys. You can figure it out yourself.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
I’d MUCH prefer 1 year of Millwood than 3 years of Chris Ray. Right now Ray is a mediocre (at best) middle reliever. What value does he provide currently or to the future?
There were/are “tons of guys” that are young, have low service time, and are starting pitchers on the free agent market right now?
What value does he provide currently or to the future?
In the future? Probably little. Maybe quite a bit as a solid 8th inning guy. Millwood though has no future value beyond 2010.
There were/are "tons of guys" that are young, have low service time, and are starting pitchers on the free agent market right now?
These guys aren’t free agents. That’s my point! You have to develop these guys or trade for them. Look, I’m not saying these are only the only type of players I want. I’d be happy to sign to Cliff Lee next off season. But developing pitchers is the way to go, but not the only way.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
I'm confused
I thought you were saying there were guys better than Millwood, but younger, cheaper, and with less service time that we could have gotten while also not impacting our long-term development as an organization (which you’ve admitted the Millwood trade did not). For anybody that is younger, cheaper, better, with less service time, we would have had to give up MUCH more than Chris Ray. So…we’re back to square one. I see no problem with getting better in the short term (trading a mediocre middle reliever for a league average starter surely makes the team better), while not impacting the long-term development of the organization.
If those points aren’t up for debate, then what are we discussing?
If those points aren’t up for debate, then what are we discussing?
I have no freaking clue because I’m not at all saying the things you think I’m saying.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
All
I saw was you ripping on the Millwood deal and saying that you’d rather them sign low service, younger, better guys, but you definitely don’t want to sacrifice the long-term development of the organization. And I was saying I have no idea how that was possible. If I misunderstood you then sorry.
I saw was you ripping on the Millwood deal and saying that you’d rather them sign low service, younger, better guys, but you definitely don’t want to sacrifice the long-term development of the organization.
Oh I’ve said many times that I didn’t hate the Millwood deal. I just thought it was unnecessary. And I’m more disturbed that the deal represents a move to the “in-between” spot that I already said above.
And I was saying I have no idea how that was possible.
I personally dig the job that Jack Z is doing with the M’s. Improving the team in cost-efficient ways, shedding off crappy contracts, and then making a big deal for a great player.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
I guess
I’m not sure we’re really in comparable position to the mariners – we need a hell of a lot more pieces to fall into place to compete than they do.
We’re not in a comparable position. That’s not the point. The point is being able to acquire good players in a cost efficient manner.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
well right
but if they’re closer to competing than we are they can afford to acquire good players in a cost effective manner (trading prospects) that we can’t do. We need our prospects to develop in order to be closer to competing. They didn’t. That seems like an enormous difference to me.
but if they’re closer to competing than we are they can afford to acquire good players in a cost effective manner (trading prospects) that we can’t do.
Sure, we’re talking past each other. The M’s are more comparable to us last off season than this off season. And they got better fast in a cost efficient by smartly relying on defensive stats.
We need our prospects to develop in order to be closer to competing. They didn’t. That seems like an enormous difference to me.
The M’s need their prospects and young players as much as we do.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
nah
What I meant was that it takes much less to move into contention in their division than it does in ours. So they can make a few big moves and immediately move into contention. We, on the other hand, need a bunch of our prospects to pan out AND make a few big moves to even approach contention. That’s what I meant about them being in a different place than us.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 22, 2009 5:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yes, it takes a better team to win in the AL East. Thank you for pointing this out.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
right...
I guess you’re not connecting the dots. Oh well!
by O'sFan21 on Dec 22, 2009 5:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
pretty please… with sugar on top. please connect the dots for me.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
already tried
You’re obviously choosing not to understand. It’s pretty simple.
Pretty please reply with some more sarcasm though. It’s very entertaining.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 22, 2009 5:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Pretty please reply with some more sarcasm though. It’s very entertaining.
Pot calling the kettle black.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
do you have to get the last word in always?
by twistedlogic on Dec 22, 2009 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
Again.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
oops, didn't fit.
but that’s what she said.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
i'm kinda past the point of calling ray part of the "future"
that guy likely had no future with the orioles anyways. i dont really understand why anyone would defend him as turning into a solid 8th inning guy. he sucks. he was awful last year, hurt the year before, and not great the year before that. 3 years of shit = potential?
by twistedlogic on Dec 22, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
the guy was coming off TJ surgery. and his suckage immediately before surgery could be due to a balky elbow. it’s not crazy to think that a healthy chris ray could be a useful relief pitcher.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
And what does the Millwood deal show. If it’s just getting someone to eat innings and save the pen, he could have acquired Livan Hernandez and done the EXACT same thing. Livan pitches a ton of innings per year and his IP per start is just as good as Millwood. We’re in phase 2!
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
Livan Hernandez is god awful
Kevin Millwood is simply mediocre. It’s not just about eating innings, it’s about giving a little bit of stability to the rotation.
he can hit better than millwood
that has to count for something. maybe if we need pinch hitters.
by twistedlogic on Dec 22, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
we also didnt have to dump pie and hernandez for him too
by twistedlogic on Dec 22, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Kinda woulda liked to see us give Ben Sheets a shot....
I think he has a lot of upside if he can get healthy and he’s 12 mil. a year too. Did we ever chat with him?
by Wieters Wieners on Dec 22, 2009 12:47 PM EST reply actions
or duchesherhsherhwshreshrhs
low priced, incentive laden deals. But sheets wants the same money he was making before the last injury.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
he's sketchy
Sheets’s agent isn’t allowing teams to see him pitch (which isn’t exactly a great sign), and he’s asking for ludicrous terms for a guy who hasn’t pitched for a year ($12 mil per year as you said).
explain please...
I read where Strasburg signed a deal with Topps. What’s that mean? Upper deck can’t make Strasburg cards?
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
Upper Deck IIRC can't make baseball cards period.
Don't give up, don't ever give up. - Jim Valvano
by BaltimoreSportsFan on Dec 22, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
Wrong.
UD can still make baseball cards because they still have an MLB Player’s Association license, while Topps has the MLB license, which means UD cards can’t have logos, but they get access to every one on the 40-man.
Like the old Post Cereal cards and various other MLBPA sets from before you were born.
And yes, BP, it means UD is unable to make Strasburg auto or relic cards, but joke’s on Topps because UD had the USA Baseball deal for the past several years and has already made multiple Strasburg cards
,
"I'd like to do something. We all would here," he added. "As I've said before, you just don't want to do anything stupid that you're thinking in May, 'What in the God's green earth was I thinking about?'" - Andy MacPhail 12/8/09
I collected a bit...
but it’s been a while…so someone like Donruss (if they’re around) or Bowman (again…) can still make their cards of every 2010 WAS Nat’l but they can’t print any specific specialty cards of that player?
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
Right.
And Bowman is a Topps brand these days.
And Donruss is still sort of around, making unlicensed sets with some pretty nice memorabilia cards
"I'd like to do something. We all would here," he added. "As I've said before, you just don't want to do anything stupid that you're thinking in May, 'What in the God's green earth was I thinking about?'" - Andy MacPhail 12/8/09
ok...
so…donruss couldn’t make a memoribilia card with strasburg right? that’s basically all this K does?
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
right.
"I'd like to do something. We all would here," he added. "As I've said before, you just don't want to do anything stupid that you're thinking in May, 'What in the God's green earth was I thinking about?'" - Andy MacPhail 12/8/09
I guess I’m just confused as to what the beneift for Topps really is? I mean, does almost every player sign something like this with one of the card companies? What if Strasburg’s arm falls off in the next 10 minutes?
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
The benefit to Topps is getting to thumb their nose at Upper Deck
and if Strasburg’s arm falls off in the next 10 minutes the Nats go even further down into the abyss than they already are.
"I'd like to do something. We all would here," he added. "As I've said before, you just don't want to do anything stupid that you're thinking in May, 'What in the God's green earth was I thinking about?'" - Andy MacPhail 12/8/09
In slightly less significant news...
the Royales signed Brian Anderson. Brian Anderson is not very good at baseball.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
All the more reason they should trade us Billy Butler.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
Millwood
I am not offended by the Millwood trade, unless the $9million we are paying him means that we won’t sign Bedard or Chapman, or that we won’t sign a Japanese pitcher or upgrade our minor league operations. In other words, it will be pleasant to have a somewhat better team next year. I am only worried if the Millwood signing, which won’t help us in the long run, has a high opportunity cost.
If anyone is interested....
Im livechatting about the Orioles prospects right now:
http://bit.ly/4IIhwb
Adam Jones
Don’t mess around with this guy, sign him long term now. He’s already an All-Star, a potential superstar, and he’ll be playing for 15 more years. Pay the man, lock him up, and keep him out of Boston and NY!!!!
Do you remember Reggie in ‘76? We traded Don Baylor for him, and he walked after one year. Don’t let Adam go. Don’t feed the nation or the empire, sign him now!
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