Wednesday Bird Droppings
by duck on Dec 9, 2009 7:00 AM EST
in Open Threads
200 comments
More nuggets from Winter Meetings...
O's like landscape at third; Millwood talks continue -- baltimoresun.com
Jeff Zrebiec's late Tuesday night update contains lots of info. To wit: • Dan Uggla: not likely as long as the Marlins want two pitching prosects • San Diego's Kevin Kouzmanoff: The O's are interested in him, especially since he could move to first when Bell comes up • "mild interest" in Garrett Atkins of the Rockies • Phillie Pedro Feliz is still "top of the list" • The Rangers wanted David Hernandez + a lower-level prospect for Kevin Millwood and $3M. The teams have discussed other deals, and the O's are still frontrunners. • No real interest in Derek Lowe or Joe Blanton • .... and a bunch of other stuff. As a footnote, the Rockies apparently have shown an interest in Melvin Mora. -zk
MacPhail's 6pm presser, via Roch - Discussing 3B
Andy MacPhail: "There are some options available to us, and not just free agents. Potential trades that we've identified," he said. "It's a reasonably sized list. And we're somewhat guided by the fact that we're very pleased with how Josh Bell has responded since he put on an Orioles uniform. We don't want to do anything that's going to hamper his development, but we also have to be realistic that prospects are just that - they're prospects." -zk
More names floated as signing possibilities for O's - MASN
"The Orioles maintain interest in first baseman Carlos Delgado, who is expected to begin playing in Puerto Rico later this week. And they also are keeping an open dialogue with Sam Levinson, who represents third baseman Pedro Feliz. Also, if the Orioles lose a player in the Rule 5 draft, it could be Double-A Bowie second baseman Miguel Abreu, who is drawing strong interest from the San Diego Padres. At least two other teams, the Boston Red Sox and Los Angeles Dodgers, have scouted him in Puerto Rico." -duck
The Schmuck Stops Here: The third man
"The Orioles also have expressed interest in San Diego Padres third baseman Kevin Kouzmanoff, who had 18 homers and 88 RBI in 141 games last year." I know absolutely nothing about this player. Enlighten me. Also, if you have nothing better to do with your life (and I sincerely hope you do), you can participate in a chat with Peter Schmuck at 1:30 p.m. today -duck
O's to meet again with Chapman team
"The Orioles will meet with the representatives for Cuban pitcher Aroldis Chapman before leaving Indianapolis. They've had discussions with Alan Hendricks over the past few weeks in sort of a start-over process after Chapman switched agents." -duck [UPDATE: They met with his reps yesterday -zk]
The Schmuck Stops Here: Orioles: Arms sale
The O's have their pick of Kevin Millwood, Joe Blanton or Derek Lowe, who averaged 15 wins a year for the last 8 years - who knew? All can be had at reasonable prices. But do we actually want any of that group? -duck
Obstacles block Royals' interest in Orioles outfielder Pie
"The Royals remain interested in a trade to acquire outfielder Felix Pie but appear unable — and unwilling — to meet Baltimore’s asking price of a run-production corner infielder." They won't budge on Billy Butler, and they have no one else we're interested in. -duck
Peter Gammons: Baseball analyst to leave ESPN after winter meetings
Peter Gammons is leaving ESPN after the winter meetings. He may be a Red Sox homer, but he is a pretty good source of information on the larger media market clubs. -duck [UPDATE: He's going to MLB Network. -zk]
Organizational Rankings: Practical makes perfect for Red Sox - MLB - CBSSports.com Baseball
Larry Dobrow (who?) breaks down all 30 franchises in his annual Organizational Rankings. The O's ranked 15th, up from 29th last year.
Woodland critters: [singing] What special time, what special place! It's Woodland Critter Christmas!
Squirrely the Squirrel: Hail, Open Thread!
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Lots to consider
Millwood, Lowe, Soriano, Feliz, Atkins, Kouzmanoff, etc. I trust McPhail to do what’s best for the team. It is frustrating to me to see how fast some teams move (Granderson) versus how meticulous McPhail is, but I can’t criticize any moves he has made, to date. The Orioles need a cleanup hitting 1B and at least a temporary 3B, one more starting pitcher (not a desparate need IMO) and a closer. That really isn’t too bad. Trust the front office. Pass me some more of that orange koolaid, will you.
by fuddnelson on Dec 9, 2009 8:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Granderson doesn't really fit a need for us
Unless we move him to LF, and that seems a bit redundant, although it frees Nolan Reimold to be a DH. And Nolan seems a bit young to stick into a DH role already.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
by duck on Dec 9, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think he wa suggesting we get Granderson
Just referencing the speed with which that deal got (almost) done vs how slowly MacPhail works.
by daveh873 on Dec 9, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm thinking it'd be adam jones moving to left field
but whatever. it’d be awesome no matter who is playing LF. and it does fit a need. we need offense. granderson would help. plus he could be excellent trade bait to dangle at the deadline if we want to pick up more pitchers or the like
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Come one Royals!?!
Billy Butler for Pie. Sounds fair to me! Ok I guess not, but I would not be opposed to a package around Pie the brought in Butler. That would be nice.
by Knubles and Bits on Dec 9, 2009 9:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Like the ideas
Not huge on Aroldis Chapman, but that definitely doesn’t seem like a serious option.
Getting Millwood wouldn’t be a bad move as he’ll pick up innings, and Kouzmanoff is a really underrated player stuck in San Diego. Feliz is not going to cut it.
by whereswieters on Dec 9, 2009 10:02 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Some hot stove tidbits from Twitter
Buster Olney says that Red Sox are interested in Coco Crisp.
Per Joel Sherman, the Mets really want Bengie Molina and they’re interested in pretty much every starting pitcher that exists. The Mets crack me up.
Fox Sports says that the Tigers are looking to trade RP Bobby Seay, C Dusty Ryan, and 1B Jeff Larish. Any interest in Seay for the O’s bullpen or Larish for 1B?
Ken Rosenthal reports that Rafael Soriano could be traded from the Braves this week and that the Orioles are interested.
According to rotowire, the Marlins rejected Neftali Perez and Justin Smoak for Josh Johnson. If that’s true, Florida is nuts.
The Minneapolis Star-Tribune reports that the Twins are very interested in Mark DeRosa. Am I the only one who doesn’t get the hoopla about that guy?
Roch says about Millwood:
In actuality, the Orioles remain one of the primary suitors, but the Rangers will have to absorb some of Millwood’s salary and not expect to receive one of the organization’s top young arms.
The Orioles wonder where some of the names were hatched in various reports, including pitcher Chris Tillman and outfielder Felix Pie. And don’t bother asking for left-hander Zach Britton. He’s not going anywhere.
The Phillies have signed SC’s arch-nemesis Ross Gload to a two year contract.
Joel Sherman wonders if Curtis Granderson is clutch enough to be a Yankee. BARF.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 10:02 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
i dont get the hoopla about derosa either
hes always on my fantasy teams and he always sucks. the eligibility is nice tho. guy can be slotted at pretty much every position including the lesser known ones like short field and all
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 10:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
atkins
waht is everyone’s take on him? i wouldn’t mind havig him reletavly young has power and is versatile.
by chuckthefan on Dec 9, 2009 10:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
always fun
recent searches that led someone to camden chat
chris hoiles vs. any other orioles player
cal ripken moves to ny (he did??)
frenchman beret
how to break your own fingers
pitchers of kittens
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 10:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I want a pitcher of kittens
Run ’em through a Magic Bullet and enjoy.
by PhilR8 on Dec 9, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how to break your own fingers is a good one
The stock market will never recover, our armies will never again be #1, and our children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives - HST
by the fix is in on Dec 9, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
c, x, c, x, c, x, c ,x
as opposed to zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
by Steve. on Dec 9, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a little worried about Kouzmanoff
Don’t know much about him, but he looks like a Wigginton clone that strikes out 20 more times a year. Is this really where we’re going? I’d say might as well sure up third with Feliz for a year and play some solid defense behind the young pitching staff.
If I’m Mcphail, seeing that I love me some cubs, I sign Feliz for a year and go hard after Aramis Ramirez or Carlos Pena next offseason.
by Kooz on Dec 9, 2009 11:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm more worried about his .300 OBP
He does play plus defense, and he’s a better bat than Feliz. OPS+ of 102, 85 at home in Petco. In arbitration years, so relatively young and cheap. He’d be a good pickup if we could send along someone like DH or Berken. I heard SD wants a CF, but I’d rather keep Pie.
by CoachOfEarl on Dec 9, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sign Kevin Kouzmanoff for his nickname alone: the Crushin' Russian
Unfortunately, he’s actually Macedonian (and has also been called the Mashin’ Macedonian; hey, for us he could be the MASN Macedonian. What?)
Actually, what concerns me about him is less the K’s (although, yeah…) than the ’05 back problems. Third basemen/ back problems = doctors/ malpractice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Kouzmanoff
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.
by Titov on Dec 9, 2009 11:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Oh, also you gotta love his hits-first-pitch-in-MLB-for-grand-salami trick. Sure it's luck plus anomaly. But what a cool anomaly.
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.
by Titov on Dec 9, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Schmuck says Millwood for Ray is possible.
From the Land of Pleasant Living...
by OEutaw on Dec 9, 2009 11:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
wow
I would have mixed feelings about that. I mean it seems like an awesome deal for us – currently awful reliever for relatively solid veteran starter, but I harbor hopes that Ray can return to his pre-injury dominant self. I was rooting for him.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ray is in the best shape of his life
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
by zknower on Dec 9, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not really trapezoid, though
I wouldn’t go there with him.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
by duck on Dec 9, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that soccer mom butt
isn’t gonna fit in a trapezoid.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The rumors keep demanding less and less
and I keep thinking “Nah, even that is too much”. I think I really don’t want Millwood. Maybe Millwood for Sarfate or something would change my mind. Maybe.
by daveh873 on Dec 9, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really want Millwood either
But I’d take him for Ray. What the hell? Why not?
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah objectively it's hard not to like that deal.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But what benefit does picking up Millwood have for the Orioles?
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He will rival Guts for Chief of Veteran Sucktitude
by sickuvitall on Dec 9, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that and he'd make sure that berken is NOT the 5th starter
that and that alone is enough for me.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well
right now we’ve got what, Guthrie, Bergy, Tillman, and Matusz for next year’s rotation? I don’t know that Arrieta will start 2010 with the club. At least one of them will get hurt, it’s possible Guts will continue to suck. You need a lot of starting pitchers to get through a year.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
6-7 innings of relatively expected performance each start? Pretty simple.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
23 starts of 6 innings or more.
Only one start the entire season less than 5 innings (not counting a rain out). Eating innings is absurdly important. Also if he does well the first half and then Arrieta is ready, there’s no reason we couldn’t flip him to a contender before the trading deadline.
So, if you can get him for a Chris Ray I think you’d be crazy not to jump at it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a huge fan of Millwood, but that’s a good trade.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't see the point
in getting guys on a one-year deal when we aren’t going to be competitive in 2010. We’ll be better, and we might even hit .500, but Millwood or any other one-year guy doesn’t do anything to help the club’s long-term goals, and he could keep someone like Arrieta from getting major league innings.
Granted, I’m a strong supporter of the theory that you can’t take any one deal in vacuum and we need to get to February 1 before we can really evaluate the offseason…but I don’t see how Kevin Millwood – who could easily be Jeremy Guthrie circa 2009 in 2010 – moves the overall cause forward.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
the point is that we have to give up almost nothing to get him and he’ll throw close to 200 innings in a rotation full of rookies for a team with an absurdly taxed bullpen. What do we care about his salary? We have a nonexistent payroll. He helps the long term goals of the team by giving guys like Arrieta time to develop as well as helping to save the bullpen arms which makes the team better all around.
I see almost no downside. It might not make the team dramatically better in the long run, but if it makes the team better this year at no cost, then what’s the problem? Just because we’re building for something further down the road doesn’t mean the team can’t be slightly better in the mean time if it doesn’t hurt the long term prospects does it?
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No downside?
I get that I’m one of the only guys who feels this way (that is, against the short term fix) and that’s fine…but you really see absolutely no downside to acquiring Kevin Millwood? I find that hard to believe. Any deal has some downside.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yea maybe
but i cant see ray ever being anything worthwhile. eventually you just have to say goodbye and get rid of some ppl. like radhames liz and hayden penn before him.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, so what is the downside?
You say you see one, but then you don’t say what it is. If you’re giving up almost nothing for him. Is the downside that he might get hurt? The last time he threw less than 150 innings was 2004 – doesn’t seem that likely to me. So what is the downside?
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
chris ray could become an allstar duh
you smokin dope again?
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha always!
Sure there’s a chance he could become good again, but is he even that valuable if he’s good? He’s a middle reliever.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well if he was good
he’d be a huge asset to our bullpen considering ours is staffed by guys like albers and bass
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
true, but the 200 innings from millwood would also be a huge asset for our BP
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well played
i didnt even think of that. anytime we can pass on albers is a good time
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The only downside I can see
Is that it could potentially stunt the development of at least one of our young starters. But I don’t consider that a huge possibility between the injuries and ineffectiveness and all that go with such a long season.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
but right now we have guthrie, tillman, matusz, bergesen, and berken in the rotation. berken sucks so millwood would just be taking his spot. might be harder to bring them up midseason, but that could be great if they are trying to trade him or guthrie to a contender.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah I'd be for it
if the price is Chris Ray.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But who would he bump from the rotation?
Or are you thinking about Arrieta being ready earlier than the 2nd half?
My thinking is that if Arrieta is absolutely dominating AAA, then you make room for him one way or another. Hopefully Millwood is pitching well and you can flip him for a prospect to a contender. Or maybe Guthrie?
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In my opinion
The absolute best case scenario is Millwood pitches great and the Orioles therefore win maybe two or three extra games in the first half and then trade Millwood and get a deal a little bit better than the Scott Moore deal from a few years back.
I mean, that sounds pretty swell, I guess, but that’s the best case. The most likely case is Millwood pitches okay and then walks at the end of the year, and the Orioles don’t offer arbitration. The net is that we win maybe 4 extra games than we would have with Hernandez/Berken/Arrieta/whoever, but in turn get a worse draft pick and lose whoever (Ray, I guess…though that’s no big deal) but he at least partially blocks someone young from getting major league experience.
That’s my pessimistic take, and I fully acknowledge that it’s biased downward. Hey, I want to see the Orioles win more games as soon as possible, too…I just don’t really see the point of it if someone who’ll be gone immediately is doing the winning.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2 or 3 extra games?
You think him pitching “great” is only worth 2-3 extra wins over Jason Berken pitching every 5th day???? Come on man! This is a guy who had a 3.7 ERA last year and pitched 200 innings. And also his impact is much bigger than that – if he is going 6-7 innings every start (which he does) that’s a huge weight off the bullpen which allows them to be more effective throughout the entire season. I think you’re drastically underestimating his value.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention he had 13 wins
how many did jason berken have?
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're not really going to use wins...
…to determine the value of a pitcher, are you?
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's not using it to determine the value of the pitcher
but responding to a comment about how many wins he would add.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yep
when it comes to comparing one guy with a 1.74 WHIP and 6.54 ERA and another with a 1.34 WHIP and a 3.67 ERA. i’d say that millwood is worth quite a bit more than 2 or 3 extra wins
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Based on?
Look, I’m not saying that anyone has to agree with WAR as an evaluation tool. But at least their methodology and reasoning is open and known. What is your rationale for thinking they are incorrect?
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
because that stat is only based on individual performance
besides that fact that i think even based on individual performance, millwood will win more than 3 games more than jason berken (nope, ive got nothing to back that up), millwood eats innings which will really help out a bullpen that generally sees more action than that lady who just had her like 19th kid
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying
he’ll have three more wins than Berken would have had, I’m saying the Orioles will win 3 more games than they would have if Berken/Hernandez/Arrieta were pitching instead of Millwood. But of course there’s no way to prove that.
Anyway, my last comment on this: in the last three years, Millwood’s got a below-average ERA+, and that makes this an okay pickup but hardly a great one. Okay I’m done raining on your parade.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how many times do i have to say this?
when did i ever say this was a great pickup? i just said this was a great trade considering how bad chris ray is.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This much I know
Millwood is a 2-3 WAR pitcher in the AL West in close to 200 innings.
Berken was 0.7 last year in 120 innings.
Hernandez was -0.8 last year in 100 innings or so.
So yeah, based on the best available information I have, I’d say 2-3 wins.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's only judging their direct individual impacts.
And says nothing for the decreased bullpen strain. Stats are great, but you have to understand their limitations.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good point
but I also worry about the move to the AL East for Millwood, who already has a small home run problem which will probably be magnified and could result in fewer 7 inning games.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the move to the AL East
is a concern, but he’s also been pitching in one of the worst pitchers parks in history. I think it will even out.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
it isn’t like OPACY, Yankee Stadium 3, and Fenway are exactly pitcher’s paradises.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He'll make what 2 starts in Yankee Stadium and Fenway?
OPACY is nowhere near as bad as Texas.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
but it’s still a concern.
Anyway, it seems like it’s done. We didn’t give up anything remotely important, and we got someone who has some degree of usefulness. In a vacuum I don’t particularly like the move, but I’ll wait for Spring Training to really come to some sort of conclusion on this.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i still dont really understand why we are debating this
millwood is okay. ray sucks. okay > sucks.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wasnt somebody asking about my "irrational hatred" of fangraphs
this kinda stuff is why i dont care for it
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you forget one thing
The net is that we win maybe 4 extra games than we would have with Hernandez/Berken/Arrieta/whoever
This assumes no major regressions and everyone stays healthy. If we have one of those snakebit bizarre injury years where Guthrie is out for two months with a twisted hangnail and Matusz is lost for six weeks with a broken face, then suddenly having a guy who can pitch league average for 180 innings isn’t just good—it’s salvation. In past years, those injuries mean Arrieta gets moved up, maybe too soon. In past years, that happens and you’re seeing Matt Hobgood. This is really good insurance on not rushing teh kidz.
To put it another way: When you’re the 2010 Orioles, and you’re trying to properly develop the talent that will carry you through the next decade, getting a durable, mediocre starting pitcher for a streaky head-case reliever is not just a win—it’s major hedge against The Plan getting derailed.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
by zknower on Dec 9, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
word word word
but please can we all agree not to say “matusz is lost for six weeks with a broken face” ever again because it makes me sad.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you're absolutely right
and I’ve reconsidered. The pitching depth is definitely a good thing.
Now I just don’t believe Kevin Millwood any good, and therefore I still don’t like the trade.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Other than Chris Ray
getting back to being a quality closer, I’m not sure what the downside here is.
Guess it comes down to how you like the odds of Ray returning to previous form.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Dec 9, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because Ray still led our pen in K/9?
Ray still has plus stuff, obviously, and can still miss bats. Few other bullpen candidates currently under team control can do so.
If we’re going to trade for Millwood, then of the names bandied about so far, Ray is my preferred option. But the fact remains that Millwood would not be part of a long-term plan for winning, and Ray might be able to be part of one.
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
useless statistic
did you actually SEE him pitch?
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
actually, chances are you didnt
he never really lasted that long when he did pitch
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Facts are rarely useless
Yes, I did see him pitch. His command, particularly of his fastball, was off, and he had a lot of trouble repeating his delivery.
He may never get those things back. But if he can, then he has the best odds of being an above-average reliever of anyone in our pen besides Mickolio. Jim Johnson doesn’t miss bats and never really has. Same for Meredith, same for Bass, same for Albers. Ray’s problems coming back from injury are clear. As is the fact that those problems are theoretically correctable.
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'd love to see him in a hitters park like they've got in texas
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that facts are rarely useless
but an 8.1 K/9 isn’t all that helpful when your BB/9 is 4.8, your HR/9 is 1.7, and your H/9 is 13.3.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you are so much better at saying this stuff
thats what i meant when i said useless statistic. i didnt mean throw out the facts, i just meant useless when you look at chris ray.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All of this is quite true
But I made this case in greater detail in my recent fanpost on the bullpen.
For most relievers, their stats are highly volatile, in large part due to sample size. But the best reliever seasons from pitchers who are not among the handful of elite bullpen arms come from relievers with high strikeout rates having seasons where they are unusually lucky regarding their other component stats. The chances that Ray may have another season like his 2006 may be very low. But the chances that pitchers without his ability to miss bats will have a season like Ray’s 2006 are essentially zero.
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's an interesting argument.
Pretty convincing, but I’m ok acquiring a proven consistent veteran innings eater starter at the expense of maybe missing out on another lucky season or two of Ray’s.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would be too
I am just not very convinced that Millwood is a proven consistent innings eating starter anymore.
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ok...well not sure what to tell you about that
I find it pretty convincing when he hasn’t thrown less than 150 innings in any of the last 5 years.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he pitched the most number of innings in 2009 than he has since 2006
his era was down, hits were down, runs and earned runs were down by a lot. yes, he gave up more home runs, walked more and struck out fewer. i get that. his innings however (going back quite a ways) have been 222, 141, 192, 215, 172, 168, 198. that looks pretty consistent to me.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Luck is luck
Who cares about his ERA or his hits allowed? Why does that matter when we know that it isn’t sustainable – that it is based on his stranding an abnormally high number of baserunners and having an abnormally low number of his balls in play fall for hits. The numbers you are quoting are not merely largely meaningless, but numbers which all of the data suggests were the result of luck. What difference do they make?
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why do we know that him throwing a lot of innings is unsustainable?
As previously mentioned he hasn’t thrown less than 150 innings since 2004 – I think it’s much more likely that he’ll throw over 170 innings than under 150 innings.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The innings pitched is sustainable
But who cares? What is the value of durability? If Berken could throw 200 innings for the Orioles next year, would it matter? The question is the quality of those innings. If Millwood is posting a 5+ ERA, he won’t throw that many innings regardless.
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I care.
Every pitcher in the bullpen cares. Every starter in the rotation cares because it means that the bullpen will hold their leads that much more effectively. Every hitter and fielder in the lineup cares because it means less of bass/albers/sarfate/etc. It’s pretty noncontrovertially better for the team to have starters throw more innings.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I swear you guys are living in some kind of fantasy world.
If you think Jason Berken (who pitched 7 innings once the entire season!) is going to rack up as many innings as Millwood.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that was all luck dude
the only reason he didnt get to seven innings very often is cuz he had an abnormally high number of his balls in play fall for hits
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hahaha
the crazier thing is that ALL of the balls hit over the fence went for hits! That has to change this season!
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
ahahahahah
that’s great. its funny how that works
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
his rate of hits on balls hit over the fence
was unsustainably high!
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what difference do they make?
well generally, the team that scores the most runs wins (at least the last time i checked). when your pitcher gives up fewer runs, you usually win!
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Remind me to send you a book on randomness
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how does randomness have anything to do with giving up fewer runs?
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was lucky to give up so few runs in 2009
which means his ERA and runs allowed and whatever were a random fluctuation which we absolutely cannot count on him repeating.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hes done it 7 times in his career
so obviously, he’s repeated that
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To wit
I’m talking about his baserunner stranding rate.
In 2005 it was 79% (which is crazy). His ERA was 2.86. In 2006 his FIP ticked up only slightly (his K/BB actually increased, but so did his home runs…probably because he signed with Texas, right?) but his strand rate fluctuated back down to 68%…and his ERA went to 4.52.
The 2.86 was a random bit of luck for Millwood based in large part on his strand rate. In 2009, his strand rate was again unrealistically high at nearly 79% (again), and his ERA was inflated (or is it deflated?) to 3.67.
There’s just no way he can do that again in 2010…unless he’s super lucky.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So what?
Even if he has the 4.52 ERA, if he throws close to 200 innings it will be incredibly valuable for us. WAY more valuable than Chris Ray could possibly be.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 6:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh
this circle we’re talking in is making me dizzy. So, let’s end this with some sort of compromise:
I’ll allow that as a one-year stopgap, we could do worse than Kevin Millwood, who will most likely eat innings and allow our young’uns to not risk injury from overuse.
You’’ll allow that Kevin Millwood is probably a slightly below average pitcher and the Orioles could have done better.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Although I don’t there’s ANY way they could have done better without giving up more.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
i’ve been trying to say this the whole time: why the hell are we arguing about this. we gave up about 9 mil for him to be here for a year (maybe a little less). who cares if hes “solid” or not. as long as he eats innings then he serves his purpose.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that's true
since we agree Chris Ray is basically nothing, then it is really hard to do relatively better than anything for nothing. But on an absolute scale, I think that there are plenty of options that are/were available to the Orioles that are better than Kevin Millwood. And lots that are worse.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and lets be honest
we talk a lot about better options, but how much do these better options actually want to play in baltimore or wont get better offers elsewhere?
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ps i dont mean that as an argument
i’m just asking who we actually have a legit shot at that would be better than millwood. i’m not really convinced that we could bring in much better for 9 mil
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 6:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
honestly, I don’t – and largely because I don’t know what the rest of the trade market looks like, nor do I know who’s going to be non-tendered this weekend.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hahaha
expense of maybe missing out on another lucky season or two of Ray’s
i’ve got to laugh at that.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of good that k/9 did him and the team!
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well sure. he faced three batters.
struck one out and the other two went yard. got 1 out and 1 K. thats 3 per 9 innings!
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If they did that
Then it would essentially be a salary dump. I’m guessing the player we trade is going to determine the money Texas pays.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Dec 9, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
now that's a deal i'd make
i’ve been a member of the trade ray lobby since he blew all of those goddamn saves before getting injured. ever since he came back, i’m in the trade ray lobby 2.0
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
especially
with TEX picking up a lot of the salry with Ray involved.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
by BPinOK on Dec 9, 2009 12:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
neat blog post from Joe Posnanski
No big info, just basically a list of the first player to make $1M, $2M, etc.
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/12/09/the-first-x-million-player/
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 1:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Liked the Dobrow piece.
Appreciate the links and news, as it is a bit tougher to follow the O’s from the left coast.
Out of Blanton, Millwood and Lowe, I’ve always thought Derek Lowe as being a good fit in Baltimore. I haven’t followed him too closely the past couple of years, but a ground ball pitcher in Camden sounds like a good idea.
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Dec 9, 2009 1:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
where are you, timg?
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
by zknower on Dec 9, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Work up in Seattle area (Bellevue actually)
but have kept home in Portland. Been out here almost 22 years now.
(Washington is very nice, but I just like Oregon better.)
hakkaa päälle !
by timg56 on Dec 9, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well that's just peachy
i didnt think that was actually going to happen, but that’s awesome!
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here is Kevin Millwood's B-R page if anyone wants to get acquainted with possible new Oriole.
He turns 35 on Christmas Eve.
Here is his face. Get used to it
Averages 189 IP with a 4.22 ERA in the last five years.
The stock market will never recover, our armies will never again be #1, and our children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives - HST
by the fix is in on Dec 9, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
4.22 with 189 IP?
I’m betting the training staff is happy with the fewer amounts of ice they’ll need for the bullpen this year…
Personally, my first thought is, he’s a better version of Scott Erickson. Lotsa innings, keep you in a decent amount of games, but never be a lights-out stud.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
by duck on Dec 9, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Millwood have a year
where he led the AL in ERA yet lost like eleven games, and it was on a good Indians team?
I mean it’s easier to pitch well when your team is scoring runs than when they’re not. I could see our offense being quite streaky, and if so thats the kind of composure I could see our team needing.
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
by jobe on Dec 9, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
there's absolutely no proof
to backup the assertion that “it’s easier to pitch well when your team is scoring runs” unless you’re judging pitchers on wins and losses. “Pitching to the score” has been debunked and debunked but good.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So pitcher's don't nibble around the plate
when they’re down one run and they don’t throw more strikes when they’re team is up big?
I understand wins and losses are a very flawed method of judging pitchers but the fact that a starter can hold a lead or keep his team in the game counts for something.
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
by jobe on Dec 9, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But it doesn't happen
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/09/12/pitching-to-the-score/
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1815
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Joe Posnanski piece
is so much better than the Baseball Prospectus piece. His words are so much more powerful than all those graphs.
But thats just me and I honestly don’t get much enjoyment out of reading graphs.
And, yes clutch pitching is bullshit.
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
by jobe on Dec 10, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I obviously think less of the deal than most here
But on the other hand, the O’s know more about Ray’s problems than I do. If they don’t think they can fix him, who am I to argue?
Rosenthal is reporting that we’re out of the Rafael Soriano trade talks too, so we’re looking at Koji/Johnson/Mickolio as our back of the pen options unless we sign Gregg, Rodney, or a type A free agent like Valverde.
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we'll see
the offseason is still young my friend.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LSB is saying that the Orioles won't be getiing any cash
Lone Star Ball Wednesday’s Open Thread
They also say that they’d rather have got Pie. No Pie for you!
The stock market will never recover, our armies will never again be #1, and our children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives - HST
by the fix is in on Dec 9, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was just reading that, most of the rumors they found sounded like $3M
Although we have some money to burn right now, i’d be glad to take less money in return for giving up a lesser player. LSB sounds less than enthusiastic about the deal.
by kba26 on Dec 9, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well shit
If I were them I’d rather have gotten Pie also.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
me too
i’m much happier with ray for millwood than pie for millwood. i’m not affiliated with the keep pie around lobby, but if you’re going to make a trade when there are some halfway decent free agent pitchers out there, better make it a good one. this trade is a great one (on paper of course). ray was not helping our cause last year and i doubt he would this year either. millwood could help keep the bullpen guys fresh and might be a nice trade chip later.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think this deal makes a lot of sense if we manage to flip Millwood at the deadline
Even if you’re in the camp that believes Ray had the potential to bounce back (i’m on the fence), a decent first half from Millwood should be able to net at least a player with similar potential.
by kba26 on Dec 9, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
even if we dont, it still works out okay
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah i'm happy with it
I wasnt saying trade=good, no trade=bad. more like no trade=good, trade=better.
by kba26 on Dec 9, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
haha you have a greater tolerance to pain than i do
i was done with chris ray a LONG time ago
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was referring to trading Millwood at the deadline
I think Ray still has some potential since it usually takes a little more time to bounce back from TJ than we’ve given him, but im not heartbroken to see him go.
by kba26 on Dec 9, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Takes pressure of young guys and Guthrie
Chris Ray is a lost cause anyways.
Even if this doesn’t turn out as hoped, this is a deal worth taking.
by whereswieters on Dec 9, 2009 2:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think the irony of Millwood for Ray is
that with Millwood eating innings, the bullpen (including Ray) would be less taxed. Ray would have a better chance at improving with an innings eater around.
But, maybe they try to put DH in that role, which is where I think he belongs.
by CoachOfEarl on Dec 9, 2009 2:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
yea probably
but i’d much rather have the starter than worry about ray giving up the jack and blowing the game.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But, maybe they try to put DH in that role, which is where I think he belongs.
I said this a lot during the season, i really want to see what DH can do when he doesnt have to try to throw 100 pitches in a game. Even if he pitches a couple of innings, the reduced workload should let him add a couple mph to his fastball and make him a lot more effective.
by kba26 on Dec 9, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I’m good with Millwood if it means no DH/Berken as starters, and no Eaton/Hill types either. Ray is a fair price, let them take the risk.
by CoachOfEarl on Dec 9, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just to temper the excitement
Millwood saw his K/9 drop by over a full strikeout last season, from 6.67 to 5.57 – the lowest K/9 in his major league career. His walk rate was worse than in 2008 as well, moving from 2.61 to 3.22. Naturally, this led to his having the worst K/BB ratio of his career as well, at 1.73.
Millwood also had a poor year keeping the ball in the park in 2009, posting a 1.18 HR/9, the second worst mark of his career. All of this led to his second worst career FIP, at 4.80, nearly a run worse than his ERA. How did he do it? With a BABIP of .279 and a strand rate of 78.6% – both major outliers from his career averages and almost certainly unsustainable.
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 3:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't know that anyone is excited.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm excited about the move, not about Millwood
by kba26 on Dec 9, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that doesn't make any sense
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it was a plus trade that helps the team, and therefore im excited about it
Doesnt mean im looking forward to seeing him pitch
by kba26 on Dec 9, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But that still doesn't make sense to me
Is it just a plus trade because we got rid of Ray? I can get behind that, but then you know, we could have just non-tendered Ray anyway.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yea but now we got something for him
it makes plenty of sense
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Ray < Millwood + cash, and that it could be a big help a team that needed a veteran starter
I’m just saying im not about to run out and buy a Millwood jersey.
by kba26 on Dec 9, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok I gotcha
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course it does!
Millwood is not a particularly exciting player to get, but to get him for Chris Ray is very exciting. Pretty simple.
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
once again
why are we debating this? i dont think anybody says that millwood is great. or even good for that matter. i’m calling him average. its the fact that we traded him for chris ray.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The point of those stats...
…is that they show that there is a decent chance that Millwood WON’T be average. If his components deteriorate further, and he is worse than a 4.80 FIP pitcher, then we’re talking about a Jason Berken level of production – Berken’s 2009 FIP was 5.31. Only instead of paying Berken $400k to suck, we’ll be paying Millwood some X millions to suck, and we may also be more likely to give him more opportunity to suck than we might Berken. If Berken sucked, we might replace him quickly with Arrieta, for example. Millwood, not so much.
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What kind of horrible world are you living in where Kevin Millwood becomes Jason Berken over the course of one offseason?
by O'sFan21 on Dec 9, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The kind of world where Millwood's FIP...
…increased by over 0.75 runs over the last single offseason.
by James F on Dec 9, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry
we’re still going to pay Berken $400k to suck. Hopefully we limit his innings at it though. It’ll be like getting a raise!
by CoachOfEarl on Dec 9, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
okay whatever dude
the stats show hes going to have an awful demise. damn you andy for getting us X millions of dollars of sucktitude
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In other news
Randy Wolf signed with the Brewers, 3 years, $29M
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 3:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I heard something interesting
on Hockey Night in Canada about a year ago that might give us some insight into why the Rangers are making this trade.
Apparently Rangers and Stars owner Tom Hicks was going to at least try and sell off his sports assets, probably, the Stars before the Rangers, but there may be an interested party who probably would buy the team if it just slashed a little bit of payroll.
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
by jobe on Dec 9, 2009 3:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Didn't the Rangers declare bankrutpcy?
Or was that another team.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hicks is desperate for money to keep Liverpool from collapsing
by kba26 on Dec 9, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The other owner
George Gillett just had to sell the Canadiens.
Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey
by jobe on Dec 9, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nolan Ryan is the face of
a group of investors trying to purchase the Rangers I think.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
by BPinOK on Dec 9, 2009 3:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Woodland Critters
That episode(s) disturbs the shit out of me!
by O Nina on Dec 9, 2009 3:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
woah
there is no room for this stuff here. we were having a heated argument about the millwood trade. get with the picture. ;-)
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I love that episode
but yeah, it’s terribly disturbing
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
by Andrew @ TLC on Dec 9, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's why I love it so much.
I mean, really – who saw that coming the first time you saw that episode? I laughed my ass off.
"(Brock Lesnar) is never in good spirits and he's not in good spirits now." - Dana White
by duck on Dec 9, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Howwwwwdy Ho!
Nothing tops their 1st Christmas episode.
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on Dec 9, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Will Carroll is saying that the Astros are asking about Pie
Y’all I am 100% addicted to Twitter. It’s not good for my productivity at all. Baseball rumors on crack is what it is.
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 4:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
yea
we get 5 luke scotts for a pie.
by twistedlogic on Dec 9, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The O's need a 1B
How does Pie for Berkman sound? Do it Andy!
Some Day, Matt Wieters Will Make The Cooperstown Crowd Laugh By Talking About The Time He Batted Behind Melvin Mora And Luke Scott. -Keith Law via Matt Wieters Facts
by Stacey on Dec 9, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rather than give up Pie ...
why not just go hard after Adam LaRoche? or even Russell Branyan? That’s a nice upgrade. Keep Pie for the Uggla trade …
by mystery tramp on Dec 9, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no thanks
branyan is oft injured and only had a few good yrs larorache ill stick with what we don’t have over him however i do hear prince feilder could be had if the price is right
by chuckthefan on Dec 10, 2009 5:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
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