Americans Have No National Pride (have ya heard?)
First, it was Kevin Youkilis telling me I have no pride. Then last night on XM Radio I listened to Holden Kushner rambling on about how everything about the United States in the World Baseball Classic is pathetic. According to him, American fans are an embarrassment because they can't be bothered going out to support their team and the American team is an embarrassment because the manager is missing games for weddings and talking about forfeiting if there are too many injuries (which would be a crying shame in all seriousness). If I were the type of person who calls into radio shows, I would have called in to tell Holden that I think he's full of crap. But I'm not, so instead I just yelled at my radio as though that would help.
Once home I forgot about Holden and his ridiculous notions, until this morning when I tuned in to Baseball This Morning with Buck Martinez where he was proclaiming that the Americans just don't have any national pride. Where is the patriotism, he asks. Down in Venezuela time has stopped while everyone focuses on baseball. The Venezuela-Puerto Rico game is packed with fans waving flags. But where are the Americans waving their flags, Buck wonders.
Listen, are people really this dense? Or do radio talk show hosts and Kevin Youkilis just need something to talk about? Because the difference in in the United States and the rest of the countries in the WBC seems pretty obvious to me.
Let's do away with the notion that not caring about the WBC equals not having any pride in my country. I have plenty of pride in my country. I live in the greatest country in the world and I'm not ashamed to say it. I live in a country that other people die trying to get to, that's how great it is. But if I don't drape myself in red, white, and blue and spend my hard earned money going to see the United States vs. The Netherlands I'm a bad American? Give me a break.
The best baseball in the world is played in the United States. This is an undeniable fact. The greatest baseball players from all over the world aspire to play in the United States of America. One of the reasons the Japanese, Venezuelan, Cuban players and their fans are so much more passionate about supporting their teams in the WBC is because they have something to prove. They want to prove that their players are on par with the best in the world. It makes sense, and if I were in their shoes I'd most likely feel the same way. But I don't have to feel the same way, because I already know that the Americans who play professional baseball are the cream of the crop. If they weren't, they'd go to Japan (burn!).
It also comes down to how the different cultures identify with players. Dominicans love Pedro and David Ortiz and Miguel Tejada because they are Dominican. Venezuelans loves Bobby Abreu and Melvin Mora and Felix Hernandez because they are Venezuelan. These are the players that have made it out of their countries and into the Major Leagues. They love them regardless of their team because they view them as Venezuelans first and Orioles or Mariners or Yankees second. When it comes to baseball, that's not how Americans see it. Derek Jeter is an American, but I sure don't love him. In fact, I've spent almost 15 years detailing the reasons I don't like Derek Jeter, and now you slap some stars and stripes on him and I'm supposed to cheer him on to victory? It doesn't work that way.
Part of being a baseball fan is cultivating a relationship with your team and the players on that team. The team I've built that relationship with over my entire life isn't Team USA, it's the Baltimore Orioles. It doesn't matter to me that Melvin Mora isn't playing for my country, I still love him and want him to do well. It's nice that I can root for Jeremy Guthrie and Brian Roberts on Team USA, but it wouldn't matter if they were Canadian or Mexican, they'd still be my players and the ones I care about. To expect anything less of an American fan would be absurd.
I don't think I'm telling you anything you don't already know about the World Baseball Classic, but it's getting old listening to the Americans get bashed for our lack of exuberance. I like the WBC. I'm enjoying the WBC. I just wish I could watch it and enjoy the baseball without someone trying to make me feel bad because I haven't poured my heart and soul into rooting for "my" team.
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AMEN.
I just came to the site to write a WBC rant, but you beat me to the bunch. So I’ll add my two cents.
MLB continues to be staffed by a group of F**KING MORONS.
Why do I say this? Because MLB created the WBC, and you’d THINK that if they wanted it to stay around, if they wanted it to gain some prestige, if they wanted it to endure….you’d THINK they’d apply some basic marketing principles to the whole boondoggle. Because their attendance SUCKS. For all of the games, not just the USA ones. And why does it suck? Because the games are RIDICULOUSLY overpriced.
Case in point. I live in Los Angeles now. I can almost walk to Dodger Stadium. Almost. So when I hear the semis and finals are this weekend, I think, “OK, I’ll take a flyer. It’s still too early for real baseball, so I’ll go watch a bunch of guys I’ve never heard of.”
Despite the ridiculous exhibition rules. Despite the fact that all the foreign teams are at least 25% to 50% guys who never played in the MLB and never will—they’re not good enough. Despite the fact that the US team features the likes of LaTroy Hawkins and Joel Hanrahan. “WTF,” I think, “I’ll go watch something kind of baseball-y.”
So I log on to the WBC site, which is chock-full of suspenseful stories:
• Umpires don’t use replay in Classic—Despite appearances, the first use of instant replay in the World Baseball Classic never materialized on Monday night in the Venezuela-Puerto Rico game at Dolphin Stadium.
• Braun, Lindstrom sidelined for U.S.—Add two more Team USA players who project to be out for the remainder of Round 2 at Dolphin Stadium. Lindstrom has a strained right rotator cuff and Braun is dealing with tightness on his right side.
• Rule mixup costs Cuba two pitchers—Cuban relievers Yulieski Gonzalez and Yunieski Maya were not available against Mexico on Monday because of a mixup regarding the pitch-counts rules.
Goodness! There’s LOTS of DRAMA, isn’t there? WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT?
I wend my way to the tickets link. And my jaw drops. Because to see a SEMIFINAL game, MLB wants $45.
$45! In the middle of a recession! To see exhibition games! FROM THE WORST SEATS IN THE STADIUM (the upper-upper deck). If I want to sit in the upper deck behind home plate? That’s another 10 bucks.
And just for comparison? Those same tickets for a Dodgers game? You know, a game where there aren’t any pitch counts, and ALL of the players are actually major leaguers? Let’s say, a game in May, where the Dodgers are facing their arcch-rivals, the SF Giants?
Those same seats cost from $9 to $23.
Hmmm. On which event will I spend my hard-earned paycheck?
I fall somewhere between casual fan and devotee of baseball. Call me semi-serious. I go to a few games a year, I follow a team, I am psyched when Spring Training comes around each year, and I watch most of the World Series games but only some of the LCS games (depending on the teams). I am not rich, and I am not poor—I fall right in the middle somewhere, with enough money to go on vacation once a year, but some credit cards with a balances and a mortgage to pay off as well. I have a few dollars to spend on entertainment, but only a few.
Without semi-serious fans like me, baseball doesn’t survive.
Without semi-serious fans like me, baseball is reduced to luxury boxes full of corporate tools who are not watching the game (I’ve been in luxury boxes twice, and the ratio of game watchers to game ignorers was about 1-3 both times), and die-hard baseball fans who buy season tickets and do 5 fantasy leagues and buy all the clothes and get married with their teams’ colors and buy extra innings even though they have the local sports package already.
Without semi-serious fans like me, baseball becomes more and more of a “niche” sport. So to get ratings, TV stations and the League itself work harder and harder to pump up rivalries that don’t exist (Orioles-Nats) and overhype ones that 90% of the country don’t care about (Yankees-Red Sox). Which means other teams don’t get coverage, which means even more fans stop caring, which means contraction.
In short, baseball is devolving into NASCAR status.
Hey MLB! Want to know how to get the fans back? ALLOW THEM TO SEE THE GAMES. For free on television, and for a reasonable price at the ballpark.
It's 4 in the morning. Too much to drink. All the girls look hot. So, the Nationals are Jennifer Lopez to me. —Julian Tavarez
NASCAR sells out almost every race
and its ratings beat the NBA during the NBA playoffs. Don’t be hatin’ on my boys making left turns.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
NASCAR's ratings have been steadily dropping
because they are a niche sport. regardless of how many people go to the track. I’m not hatin’. it’s just a fact.
It's 4 in the morning. Too much to drink. All the girls look hot. So, the Nationals are Jennifer Lopez to me. —Julian Tavarez
And they're still higher than the NBA
Is the NBA a niche sport?
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
Boxing is a niche sport
So is MMA and Arena Football. NASCAR is probably the #4 sport in the US, behind the NFL, College Football, and Baseball.
+1
I was just saying the same thing 20 minutes ago. If tickets were cheaper, there could’ve been a decent crowd watching the incredible USA-Puerto Rico game.
It doesn’t make any sense. Sell the tickets for $5 a piece and sell the place out. You’ll make the money back on concessions, and it’s great marketing to play in front of a full house.
MLB is being penny wise and pound foolish, per usual.
Sell them at $20
and you’d still get pretty full stadiums. $45 to get in the door? That’s crazy.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
Solid post.
I hate to shit in anyone’s oatmeal, but the World Baseball Classic is basically spring training on steroids.
The beauty of a professional sports league is that men are forced to grind it out with each other for an entire year, usually longer, in hopes of getting to the final game eight/nine months later. When a team finally does take the crown, they’re rewarded for committing themselves to their franchise, and that is certainly notable.
Conversely, the players in the WBC have been together for a matter of weeks, and I personally cannot see how the Venezuelans can shoot their loads after beating Puerto Rico.
The games in Toronto were actually embarrassing, though, as that indoor baseball stadium sold > 10,000 tickets to games featuring the best of Holland.
I’m not against the World Baseball Classic as Selig and co. have to make their mark in the international market sometime, but quite simply, there is no suspense or excitement in the tournament.
Anyway, people accusing America of not having patriotism is absurd. I’ve traveled to many different countries, and the US is far and away the most nationalistic state on the face of this Earth. The United States is almost unanimously regarded as the most patriotic country per various international polls, and also amongst many different groups of people, so those speculators are quite ignorant.
There are very few other places in the world where students are taught almost exclusively the history of their own country, and the news feeds nothing but domestic issues. This isolationism is understandable as the US borders two indirect colonies, but the point remains valid.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
see...
this lends creedence (creedence…woooo!) to the notion that that wbc should just be played during an extended mid-season break.
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on Mar 17, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt owners/players/managers would consent
But having this thing in spring training is a joke.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
I think another point to be made is WHEN the WBC is. In the middle of MLB spring training. Then consider that it is in the middle of Japan’s season. That’s a pretty big advantage right there. I haven’t heard about people’s patriotism being questioned but if it is that is really dumb. It’s not that the fans aren’t patriotic it’s that they don’t care. The WBC doesn’t mean anything to them and why should it? The USA invented the sport and they have nothing to prove the other countries do. Japan vs. Korea is a huge deal, some of the Latin countries have rivalries as well but who are our rivals? We don’t have any.
+1
Its march madness time!!! I’ll come back to baseball come opening day, i get tired of all this lower quality baseball. Why should we care about the WBC if the level of competition is less than in the MLB.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Mar 17, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Why should we care about the WBC if the level of competition is less than in the MLB.
I agree. MLB can’t really do anything about the sport being based in one country, but the whole concept of an international competition is just, blah.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
furreal
Americans should be less patriotic, not more so. This just adds further proof to the notion that people associated with baseball are some of the dumber people on this planet.
Baltimo is exactly right. It’s almost like we’ve become so isolated and out of touch that people actually want to become MORE isolated and out of touch. I have a lot of complex feelings about the idea of globalization, but c’mon. The nation-state has to stop being the answer at some point.
Here's a thought
Let’s see, what else can Americans watch right now for sports…
1) College Basketball (conference tournaments, mostly)
2) NBA
3) NHL
4) NASCAR
And, let’s not underestimate
5) Watching and reading about player movement in the NFL and the upcoming draft. ProFootballTalk.com burned its servers on the first day of free agency, then burned The Sporting News’ servers and then almost took out MSNBC’s servers before finally getting back online on their own. There’s a reason the NFL Network is 12 months a year. I’m betting more fans could tell me how the pro-day workout of their favorite college players went than WBC results. (Darrius Heywood-Bey looked good at Maryland’s by the way, and don’t be surprised if Jeremy Navarre ends up signing with some team).
There are four other major professional leagues holding meaningful contests right now, and the brontosaurus on the block, the NFL, is in its business time of the off-season.
And we wonder why people are watching or attending the WBC? At $45 a ticket to get in the door?
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
There are four other major professional leagues holding meaningful contests right now, and the brontosaurus on the block, the NFL, is in its business time of the off-season.
Well, early/mid March is pretty much the least lively time of the year in terms of professional sporting events, so they did get that right, but I agree that even regular season NBA games are more riveting that spring training+ baseball in Canada.
I’m not sure how you’d really fit in this tournament without coinciding with other major sports events because the period of time before the NCAA tournament begins is pretty much recognized as the worst time of the year for major sports fans.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
least lively?
Sheesh, the first round of the NCAAs is pure unadulterated awesome. I can wake up and start watching games at noon and not stop until well past midnight if I want to. Beat that.
No
I mean the period between the end of the Super Bowl and the beginning of the tournament.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
So February, really.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by Scott Christ on Mar 17, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I just can’t get myself interested in international competitions. Like Stacey said, I hate Derek Jeter all year, and I’m suppossed to root for him now? Uh-uh.
For the same reason, I enjoyed olympic hockey better before they added all the NHL guys.
I wonder if I can bill Jeff Lurie and Peter Angelos for the years of therapy their teams are going to put me through.
My gripe is
That the sport has to be international for there to be a legitimate tournament.
Sure, baseball is prevalent in a few small countries plus Japan, but the WBC directors were forced to put together teams like Italy and the Dutch. Give me a break…
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
Baseball is wildly popular with the Dutch! Their team doesn’t bother me. The “Italian” team is a joke. I mean Ireland has an actual bunch of baseball players and a national team and stuff. Where are they?
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by Scott Christ on Mar 17, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
They probably would have beaten South Africa
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
I'd just like to say
"It definitely hurts a little bit to know that you’re always the away team in your own country," he said. "There are some good people out there, but it would be nice to have a lot more of those people chanting ‘USA,’ holding up American flags. That’s the one thing we didn’t see much of the other night – there were more Puerto Rican flags than American (flags)."
Youklis has probably never played in anything less than a sold out house, so I guess he has that excuse, but honestly, that was ridiculously ignorant.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
Sorry guys, but...
My first post, and I’ll probably be pilloried for it, but here goes:
“The best baseball in the world is played in the United States. This is an undeniable fact. The greatest baseball players from all over the world aspire to play in the United States of America.”
OK, now try this:
The best soccer in the world is played in such countries as Brazil, Germany, and Italy. This is an undeniable fact. The greatest soccer players in the world aspire to play in those countries, as well as France, England, and The Netherlands.
Yet the soccer fans in those counties go bananas every four years for the World Cup, as well all the qualifying matches in between.
Don’t want to pay 45 bucks to watch the US square off against The Netherlands in baseball? You can bet soccer fans will pay an equivalent amount, if not more, to watch their elite team play against Kuwait or Pakistan. And travel halfway around the world to see it.
And I’m sure that many of those fans wind up rooting for their version of Derek Jeter during those matches, and revert back when they’re over.
And yes, the players on the international squads only practice together for a few weeks, while they’re playing for their regular teams in season too. Doesn’t bother anyone.
It’s got nothing to do with “patriotism”. It has to do with a narrow outlook.
The best soccer in the world is being played in England now
just look at the dominance in the Champions League….but just how many of those players are English? Not many. My beloved Gunners have precious few Englishmen. The Italian and Spanish leagues are producing some great players and teams as well.
Also, I really wouldn’t consider the US the greatest country in the world.
"In a couple of weeks or a month, I'll be excited about this team," Dawkins said. "I've got to get used to saying that -- I'm a Bronco." Then he paused. "I'll tell you one thing -- I'll always be an Eagle."
c'mon, man (or woman)
soccer is the world game. it is the beautiful game. comparing soccer to baseball is ludicrous.
all countries (saving the US) watch the world cup for two reasons:
1) they’re already bananas about soccer in general (few countries have a second national sport that even remotely competes with it…. …maybe cricket in some of them); and
2) far more teams than just brazil, germany and italy are competitive in the world cup. They watch because they have hope that they can slay a giant. In fact, 24 different countries have made it to the final four in the world cup’s history. So in a given year, lots of countries might have a legitimate chance. Heck, the US came within spitting distance of the final four before the game with germany last time around, IIRC.
Tickets to a world cup final start at $400! You’re saying because a fan spends $400 to go to a Cup final I should do the same for the WBC?
Puhleeze. I’m not having a narrow outlook for not wanting to blow cash I can’t afford to blow on an event that, really, is kind of gimmicky and lame. The World Cup has a 70-year history. Maybe in 30 or 40 years, the WBC will feel the same way. RIght now, if the US wins, it’s not because they’re giant-slayers. It’s because this is where the talent is—here, Cuba, Japan. No real bragging rights if we pull it off.
And you also forget that the US is more diverse than pretty much any country in the world. Whereas every team playing for the World Cup shares deep ties in race/ethnicity/heritage (i.e., most of the players look the same and share a common ancestry), in the US, all our players once came from somewhere else. So we don’t have that breed of Nationalism here. Do we have jingoistic, flag-waving, political smugness? Arrogance? A superiority complex? Yes, yes, and yes. But people are proud of and have an affinity with America because of its ideals and system of government, not because we all have blonde hair or the like. (Okay, obviously there are nutcase exceptions to that last statement, but the majority of us, anyway).
By the way, welcome to camden chat.
It's 4 in the morning. Too much to drink. All the girls look hot. So, the Nationals are Jennifer Lopez to me. —Julian Tavarez
Soccer fans are insane
Seriously, those people are nuts.
Duck Around - a progressive blog about the Eastern Shore of Maryland. And getting off my lawn.
Thank you, duck
I am nuts
"In a couple of weeks or a month, I'll be excited about this team," Dawkins said. "I've got to get used to saying that -- I'm a Bronco." Then he paused. "I'll tell you one thing -- I'll always be an Eagle."
Welcome to Camden Chat
it’s a decent point, but in my mind you just can’t compare soccer and baseball. Soccer is SO much bigger. It’s a monster. And I think you accidentally disprove your point with
The best soccer in the world is played in such countries as Brazil, Germany, and Italy. This is an undeniable fact. The greatest soccer players in the world aspire to play in those countries, as well as France, England, and The Netherlands.
I think that if there were baseball leagues around the world that matched up with the United States, the WBC might draw a lot more emotion. Note I’m not saying baseball players, I’m saying baseball leagues. If the Mexican league or the South African league or whatever was on equal footing the way all the countries you listed above were, it would be totally different.
Also, my whole point is that it’s NOT about patriotism. That’s what these ridiculous broadcasters were saying, not me. I was saying it has nothing to do with it.
[Guthrie's] president of my heart. ~PhilR8
Welcome
But I don’t like your comparison.
As I’ve stated, top tier baseball is essentially played in one country, with a few small nations and Japan thrown in there.
If the sport was highly regarded in Brazil, Argentina, England, France, Spain, Germany, and Italy just to name a few, then I’m sure you’d have rabid baseball fans as well.
Soccer truly is a global sport, and baseball really isn’t even a transcontinental game; the juxtaposition just isn’t fair.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
Not sure if this was mentioned before
But I can’t feel terribly invested in these games because they feel like exhibitions games… or competitive spring training games. There’s a mercy rule and strict spring training like pitch counts, consequently, it doesn’t feel like real baseball. There isn’t a starter who goes the distance, even managers are sensitive towards not over using their position players. All of this fine, afterall I don’t want to see B-Rob or Guts suffer an injury, but it distracts from the game’s realism.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
Thanks for the serious replies.
And you also forget that the US is more diverse than pretty much any country in the world. Whereas every team playing for the World Cup shares deep ties in race/ethnicity/heritage (i.e., most of the players look the same and share a common ancestry), in the US, all our players once came from somewhere else.
I’m not so sure of that. There is a very high Muslim population in France, England and the Netherlands, particularly among the young. That means people from the Middle East and Asia. Amsterdam and Rotterdam will be majority Muslim in perhaps 15 years, when, demographically, more Muslim children will be born there than native Dutch. The star of the French team a few years back was Zidane (?), of Algerian ancestry.
Brazil is quite diverse too.
I think that if there were baseball leagues around the world that matched up with the United States, the WBC might draw a lot more emotion. Note I’m not saying baseball players, I’m saying baseball leagues.
None on the American level yet, but the Japanese league is fairly close, and the Caribbean countries field strong teams despite their much lower population. (Cuba only has about 10 million people; there are more people in NYC.)
Besides, what better way is there to internationalize the sport, especially to start? I’m not a fan of people like Markakis playing for the Greek team, but that stuff goes on in the Olympics and World Cup, too.
None on the American level yet, but the Japanese league is fairly close
It’s closer to the PCL than it is MLB.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by Scott Christ on Mar 19, 2009 3:51 AM EDT up reply actions
In terms of fan support
The Japanese league is comparable.
I do think that Ampontan’s use of the word “yet” was a bit misplaced, though, as the level of talent in the Japanese league won’t increase with more players leaving earlier for the MLB.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
Well yeah the fan support in Japan is outstanding. I really wish we got to see Japanese baseball easier in the States.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by Scott Christ on Mar 20, 2009 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Two in a row
It’s (the Japanese league) closer to the PCL than it is MLB.
You were saying?
Do you honestly think
that Japan winning the WBC means they are a better league than the MLB?
I will not rest until America has universal health care and Derek Jeter is seen for the overrated starfucker he truly is! ~2632
No way
Half of the Americans sat out.
"In a couple of weeks or a month, I'll be excited about this team," Dawkins said. "I've got to get used to saying that -- I'm a Bronco." Then he paused. "I'll tell you one thing -- I'll always be an Eagle."
That the Japanese league is closer to the PCL than it is MLB. There is no way you actually think the WBC results means that the Japanese league is better than Major League Baseball or even on par with it.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by Scott Christ on Mar 25, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Muslims
Courtesy of Wikipedia….
The current Muslim population in France is less than 10%
England is 3%
Netherlands is 6%
That is not very high by any stretch. These numbers are increasing, but it will be a long time before “more Muslim children will be born there than native Dutch.” Plus, I imagine that one could be Dutch and Muslim because Dutch would signify the country you live in (Netherlands) and Muslim would of course signify your religion.
And you forget that many of the people of these countries are full-blooded, so to speak (ie – 100% English, etc). America is so diverse that most of us have ancestors from many countries.
Also, not to nitpick, but the population of NYC is 8.3 million people. Also courtesy of Wikipedia.
"In a couple of weeks or a month, I'll be excited about this team," Dawkins said. "I've got to get used to saying that -- I'm a Bronco." Then he paused. "I'll tell you one thing -- I'll always be an Eagle."



















