I never thought I'd do this but I must defend Peter Angelos

by phillybmore on May 13, 2009 8:17 PM EDT Comment 34 comments

I never thought I'd do this but I must defend Peter Angelos. Today SI named him the worst owner in baseball. Bad owner? Yes, but certainly not the worst, especially based on sis criteria: The method was not scientific but based on numerous factors, some of which are indisputable and some of which are intangible. Among the criteria used to evaluate owners was the 1.willingness to spend money to improve the team; 2.the stability and capabilities of the front office and management; 3.the amenities at the team's venue; 4.and the club's culture and interactivity with fans. Of course, weighing heavily in the decision was the team's success or failure on the field, and ammenties of the teams venue.

1. Angelos will spend money in his mind to improve the team. not wisely sometimes(Albert Belle), but he will spend it. Lets not forget the long term deals for markakis and others.

2. He has owned the team since 94, and though past front office has come and gone Andy Macphail seems to be the man to build the team, and Angelos seems hands off in this case.

3. Camden Yards would be the best venue in baseball if it didn't have so many obstructed view seats, so does wrigley and fenway though, so thats not an issue.

4. Ok, so they're not the best with us, but they do have fan fest and players in the community every year.

5. You got us on the winning. We've been bad. But the future of Weiters, Markakis, Burris, Koji etc looks brighter.

My point is he is probably like 15th or so, but defiently not the worst owner, especially based on their criteria. I can name off the top of my head the Pirates, Nationals,Marlins,Royals, YANKEES, and A's as much worse owners..So there, I defended Angelos, probably for the first and last time ever..

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I can accept someone saying the Pirates, Nats, and Royals have worse ownership. You can argue that the Marlin’s are worse, but the dumping and retooling has worked out reasonably well.

Saying the A’s and Yankees have worse ownership is nonsense.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on May 13, 2009 9:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

at the risk of looking stupid...

who is this “burris” you speak of?

"I’m sure glad he didn’t try to bunt." - DD on Melmo's game winning double, 6/17

by daveh873 on May 13, 2009 10:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I was thinking the same thing.

Also, I don’t really think of Koji either. The dude is already 34. I understand the point, though, and it is valid. Just with different names.

by The Sicilian on May 14, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Follow Up

1. I meant to type bass for Brian. Sorry. Hes older but getting there decent bullpen outings. hes very good with key strikeouts. Stupid on my part, I was typing in between innings real fast, should’ve double checked.
2. The reason I say the Yankees is because they make it impossible for the average fan to go to a game,yes they are commited to winning, spend $$$, but the tickets and parking are insane. That should weigh heavilly in a decision to grade owners. After all, The Phillies are World Champs and their most expensive ticket is $75. And parkings on $12, not $30, thats all i was getting at.
Also the A’s owner,Lew Wolff is fighting to move the team out of Oakland, thats why I mention him. Even though freemonts only around 45 mins to an hour away, its the point. Thats all.

The Most wonderful time of the year! Baseball Season is here! Phils and O's!

by phillybmore on May 14, 2009 6:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

ok then

I’m not really all that excited about Brian Bass, but I guess it makes more sense than Brian Burres.

"I’m sure glad he didn’t try to bunt." - DD on Melmo's game winning double, 6/17

by daveh873 on May 14, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wolff > Angelos

One of Earl Weaver’s stated reasons for retiring was to avoid waking up dead at the team hotel in Oakland one day.

The Coliseum is a terrible, terrible baseball venue and the City of Oakland can’t or won’t work with the franchise to improve it. The desire to move to a place where he can provide a better venue (and yes, to make more $$) doesn’t make Wolff worse than Angelos. The A’s have a relatively stable front office and team culture that produces competitive teams a lot more regularly than the O’s.

by typozzz on May 14, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Yankees aren't committed to winning.

They’re committed to spending.

There’s a difference.

It's 4 in the morning. Too much to drink. All the girls look hot. So, the Nationals are Jennifer Lopez to me. —Julian Tavarez

by zknower on May 14, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's not sugercoat it

Angelos took one of the great franchises in the game and turned it into a bumbling laughingstock.

I’m fully on board with the way this rebuild is going, but this is still going to be an uphill climb.

Let’s wait for a winning season before we start praising Angelos.

by dkdc on May 14, 2009 9:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Amen. "Proving" Peter Angelos is the worst owner in baseball is a hilarious concept. PA defines worst owner. Let's not start.

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.

by Titov on May 14, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm no Angelos defender

But the team wasn’t good for quite some time when he got them. Minus a few years here and there (some of which were on Angelos’ watch), the Orioles have been crappy since the mid 80s.

I think he’s horrible. And I do think he’s coming around, but I won’t change my mind about him being horrible until we have results. But It’s not like he bought the team in 1979 and turned them into losers.

I’m smart, not a dummy. ~Adam Jones

by Stacey on May 14, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah...

i was just arguing about this w/ a friend. really, 1983 was the high watermark and thus began a steady decline. markakis and roberts were the first everyday position players to stick produced by the org since cal…

…and really, since the 70s, mussina, ben mcdonald and bedard were the only decent starting pitchers.

"If they pitch to you, make them pay."

--Diamond Dave to the Phenom

by j.q. higgins on May 14, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He certainly accelerated the decline.

The Orioles were already a pretty good team when he bought them in 1993, having won 89 and 85 games the previous two years. He rode that core to his only two playoff appearances (and to compare him fairly to his predecessors, the wild card appearance really shouldn’t count).

By the time his vision of the team was fully realized, the Orioles were on their way to 12 consecutive losing seasons.

Winning percentage by owner:

Hoffberger .547
Williams .510
Jacobs .499
Angelos .470

Managers per year by owner:

Hoffberger 0.23
Williams .44
Jacobs .40
Angelos .50

by dkdc on May 14, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tell me the Winning percentage on Bob Irsay when he was in Baltimore?

by south_florida_oriolesfan on May 14, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

get your facts straight

are you on crack?

he rode that core to the playoff appearances.

no he didn’t. after angelos took over the team, the orioles signed roberto alomar, rafael palmeiro, david wells, scott erickson, bobby bonilla, bj surhoff, and randy myers. In fact, of the 12 top salaries on the team in 1996, only ripken, mussina, hoiles and brandy anderson were with the team before angelos bought them.

the orioles won in 1996 and 1997 not because of their “core”, but because a bunch of talented guys were added to their core. they didn’t play in the alcs because of jeffrey hammonds, believe me.

It's 4 in the morning. Too much to drink. All the girls look hot. So, the Nationals are Jennifer Lopez to me. —Julian Tavarez

by zknower on May 14, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also

Although it continued under Angelos, the fact is the farm system had been barren and pathetic long before he came along. Quick, think of all the good position players that came out of the O’s farm system between Cal Ripken and Brian Roberts. Chris Hoiles? Jeffrey Hammonds? Calling Jeffrey Hammonds good is pretty suspect anyway, I’d be surprised if his lifetime OPS+ is 100. Is there anyone else?

The Orioles franchise was sick long before Angelos bought it.

I’m smart, not a dummy. ~Adam Jones

by Stacey on May 14, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

this is my point...

hoiles, moose milligan, devo and brady were not drafted by the o’s. you could MAYBE make an argument that david segui sort of worked out, but in his initial go’round w/ the o’s, he maxed out at 146 games. don’t think hammonds ever played that many in a season w/ the o’s (career OPS+ for him was 99, btw). bigbie i think had one season were he approached the low 100s for games played.

so you can look at regulars produced by the system (and classify that as guys consistently reaching around 150 games) or impact players. i don’t think it’s overstating things to say that post-cal, the system has scored poorly on both fronts. markakis and roberts are positive developments, but look at the time b/w the two of them!

"If they pitch to you, make them pay."

--Diamond Dave to the Phenom

by j.q. higgins on May 14, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So Hoiles wasn't drafted by the O's

I wasn’t sure but I knew he was in the O’s minor league system for a couple years. I was too lazy to look it up.

I’m smart, not a dummy. ~Adam Jones

by Stacey on May 14, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hoiles fue de los tigres

"If they pitch to you, make them pay."

--Diamond Dave to the Phenom

by j.q. higgins on May 14, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lets not forget...

the ever talented Manny Alexander(he was gonna be the one to move Cal to 3B), Leo Gomez, Damon Buford, and Rocky Coppinger

"We're so bad right now that for us back-to-back home runs means one today and another one tomorrow." ~ Earl Weaver

by Graham71681 on May 15, 2009 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

let's keep going...

ryan minor? cal pickering? darnell mcdonald? matt riley? rick stahl? beau hale?

yes, we’ve been sold a bill of goods before, but this time, there’s pretty solid consensus from the outside that the o’s have the young horses to compete in the near future as opposed to a giant bowl of warehouse brand orange flavored beverage.

"If they pitch to you, make them pay."

--Diamond Dave to the Phenom

by j.q. higgins on May 15, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am not on crack

But thanks for asking.

Ripken/Mussina/Hoiles/Brady is exactly the core I’m talking about (and a damn good core at that). And guys like Hammonds (and Benitez and Rhodes) deserve more credit than you are giving them.

Unfortunately, the success of the 1996/1997 teams is what led Angelos to believe that he could just ignore player developmend, buy a few free agents and chug his way to the playoffs. That worked in 1996 and 1997 because of the talent that was already there.

It hasn’t worked since then because all of that core talent was gone and there was no one to replace them.

by dkdc on May 14, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

sorry for the hyperbole

that as rude.

but in any case, without the additions I mentioned above, who were added by the angelos FO, there’s no way either of those teams makes the postseason.

i agree that the success of those teams led angelos to believe that he could ingore player development. i think he’s easily ONE OF the worst owners in baseball. but that is a far cry from saying he’s the worst overall. those couple of years where he tried to build a winner (albeit the wrong way) are testimony to that, as was his position of not fielding a replacement team during the players’ strike and his opening a dialogue with cuba. and irrespective of what SI wants to print, the worst owner in baseball does not shell out for markakis or even wieters, for that matter.

3, 5, 7 years ago, angelos may have been the worst owner in baseball. not now.

It's 4 in the morning. Too much to drink. All the girls look hot. So, the Nationals are Jennifer Lopez to me. —Julian Tavarez

by zknower on May 14, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

I mean, yeah, Angelos might not be the worst owner in baseball. I really don’t know since I don’t follow the other 30 teams close enough to judge.

I do know that he’s been a pretty freaking bad owner, and he’s close enough to the bottom that it doesn’t offend me when someone calls him the worst.

by dkdc on May 14, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

there's a difference between praising and saying "worst owner"

I agree with phillybmore. If you look at Angelo’s entire time with the team, he has had some things in the plus column. It’s just that the last decade is more recent.

It's 4 in the morning. Too much to drink. All the girls look hot. So, the Nationals are Jennifer Lopez to me. —Julian Tavarez

by zknower on May 14, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is this...

…one of those Warehouse PR guys again?

by Jonny Pops on May 14, 2009 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

believe me, i'm no warehouse pr guy

I’m more of a phils fan than O’s, but I do care very much about the O’s. I started the post because although I think he is a bad, hell very bad owner, he’s not the worst,thats all.

The Most wonderful time of the year! Baseball Season is here! Phils and O's!

by phillybmore on May 14, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Drayton McLane is just as bad as Angelos.

"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.

by birdman on May 14, 2009 12:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Drayton McLane didn't know Tejada was going to be on the Mitchell Report

and traded for him the day before it came out, and gave us Luke Scott to boot.

Like no one could have guessed Miggy was gonna be on it!

Yeah, dude’s pretty dumb.

Matt Wieters took batting practice this morning. There were no survivors.

by duck on May 14, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

McLane is more meddlesome than Angelos and he refuses to pay over slot for draft picks. I’ll take Petey over Drayton any day. It baffles me that SI didn’t list him in the top five.

"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.

by birdman on May 14, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well actually not, the Stros have had some successful teams in the last ten years. But they’ve won in spite of Drayton.

"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.

by birdman on May 14, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and hunsicker was too smart...

so he had to go out and hire ed wade. yeesh.

"If they pitch to you, make them pay."

--Diamond Dave to the Phenom

by j.q. higgins on May 14, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's all about perspective

From where I sit all the guys in this “best owner” group are really the “worst owners”. If the Orioles were good, these guys would be running teams that would compete against them. In the world where the O’s are good, the best owners are the jokers that put crummy together and pad the W column for the good teams. So I guess Angelos has been a pretty damn good owner for a lot of others, just not O’s fans.

He’s likely a great owner for the O’s ownership group. Every estimate I’ve seen (usually that Forbes stuff) says the O’s are making money despite all the buffoonery in the front office and on the field.

by drj on May 14, 2009 4:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs