"We thought he had the tools in spring training and we've given him a shot here, but any young player, you look at all the good ones we have, it takes a long time to learn at this level," Crowley said. "It's not easy. If we were in instructional league or A ball or Double-A, I could tell him some things and he'd be able to take it right into the game. But pichers at this level don't allow you to get on a roll.
"He's coming around. He's hit some balls good. Unfortunately, they've caught them. That has a way of working on a young guy's mind.
"I'm not so sure he's going to be playing on a regular basis anymore. We might take a step back and let him get his feet on the ground. That's up to Dave (Trembley) and Andy (MacPhail)."
Terry Crowley on Felix Pie. That was a pretty short leash.
about 1 year ago
Baltimo
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Just to add my input
I honestly don’t understand why you would acquire Felix Pie from the Cubs to give him roughly two to three weeks of quality time before yanking him as a regular. Isn’t Chicago regularly trashed because their prospects aren’t given an extended audit?
Why would you not let the Pie circus run its course so that we can definitively establish that he isn’t the answer as a permanent left fielder?
I’m not even going to go into the idea of a player needing time to establish himself in a new league/position/team/city/role, but just on the premise that some players begin the season slowly, Pie should be granted the benefit of the doubt.
Nolan has been kept in the minors for years by this organization, and now they’re dying to get him to the bigs as if he’s suddenly going to fall off the face of the earth.
If Reimold is going to complete our outfield, then leaving him in Norfolk, his highest level ever, will not at all hinder his progression. Conversely, I’d make the argument that bringing Nolan up to split time with Pie will actually decelerate his development.
wtf?
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
And if Nolan is given the starting role with Pie as the 4th outfielder
Then what? We just stick with Reimold? What if he doesn’t do well? Back to Pie?
Maybe siting Felix on the bench will put things in perspective for him, but I fear that he’s already been given his best opportunity, and the front office wasn’t very generous.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
It's baffling
I would have hated this trade if If I’d known that MacPhail didn’t have the stones to stick with a struggling Pie for more than 3 weeks.
Give me Garrett Olson back.
Olson's in AAA
It’s not like Garrett Olson is doing anything for the Seattle Mariners. I checked yesterday and he’s in AAA. So we really didn’t lose anything for Pie.
But I do agree that it is beyond stupid to sit Pie after only a month. I thought he should ideally get until the All-Star break, but at the very least until the end of May. Why acquire him if your not going to give him a fair look?
Olson's in AAA
Because he had options left. That’s why the Cubs were willing to trade Pie for him.
Actually Olson is
kicking ass in Triple A but then he has done that before….
Look you dont trade for Pie unless you didnt have all that much confidence in Nolan…
I don't think that needs to be true
that they’d trade for Pie because they weren’t happy with Reimold. I think we should compare his value to the player he was traded for. Garrett Olson wouldn’t have cleared waivers, so instead of losing him for nothing, they got Pie. And if both Pie and Reimold turn out well, no one’s going to complain about that problem. But to say they did it because they weren’t happy with Reimold seems misleading.
by perpetualstudent on May 3, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
well if they
really thought Nolan was going to claim the job why give away Olson who did have options..Seattle was able to option him down to triple A which is what the Cubs were going to do with him.
I think the O’s wanted to give themselves alternatives and felt Olson was worth giving. I hope Nolan proves them wrong and kicks ass. If you see my note below I think Freel and Montanez are on the outside here…who says Pie cant just be a fourth outfielder….and maybe the O’s felt he would be a versatile one still worth the cost of Olson but lets face it I think they had doubts that Riemold hasnt been durable enough or has been a little slow to develop.
Look, I rooting hard for Nolan to take LF and run with it.
Olson didn't need to clear waivers
He wasn’t out of options. The Mariners optioned him to AAA.
It's not like he's costing us games..
They have given Sherrill a huge leash, and he’s actually blowing games for us.
What up?
The plan was working until
The Pie trade. That was the begining of all this stuff. The fact that Pie has no options is the problem. Good luck to finding enough playing time for everyone. I guess MacPhail put that in Trembley’s hands and told him “Oh by the way, win some games.”.
"They are who we thought they were"-Dennis Green
i don't understand these comments at all
the “give him a chance” crowd needs to let it go. felix pie is a bad major league baseball player. he’s a pretty good minor league baseball player. those are facts. he has 311 major league at bats. his OPS is .590.
i’m sorry, but he’s done. a scout was quoted the other day as saying he lacks instincts. anyone who has watched him twist around under a fly ball could see that. this is just a guy that has amazing physical tools that haven’t translated to baseball skills. he’s the wide receiver with 4.3 speed who can’t run a route to save his life. he’s a 6’9" small forward who can jump through the roof but simply can’t shoot. he’s the classic example of a guy that scouts miss on. too athletic too ignore, not good enough to actually play. that can work in the minors sometimes, but not in mlb.
just give up the dream, please. if, and it’s a big if, he ever learns to play defense, he could have some value as a 5th outfielder, defensive replacement, and pinch runner. he’s not playable as a regular though. and he never will be.
also, garrett olson was never going to be any good either. that trade was nothing for nothing. ignore sunk costs. let’s just move forward and call up reimold.
Just to put it in perspective
Brian Roberts first 400 ABs he sported a robust 240ish Average, a blazing 294 OBP, and a stunning 600 or so OPS. Maybe they should have just released him?
Lots of players take a few years of seeing major league pitching to adjust and figure it out. 311 ABs is not even a full season. We are a rebuilding team with no chance of winning this year so what’s the harm in seeing if he can figure it out? Reimold has never played at AAA before and has the option of staying there. I see no downside to sticking with Pie for a few more months and giving him a chance to figure it out. One month in a new league for a young player is nothing and 311 major league at bats is not even close to a big enough sample size to judge a player.
I’m not saying I like the trade or I think Pie is any good, but since the deal is done and we’re stuck with it we may as well give it the chance to be fully judged and not just react with some knee jerk reaction after the first month of the season. Rebuilding takes patience.
by O'sFan21 on May 3, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
sure, there's absolutely no downside
but there’s no upside either. he’s not going to get better. that’s just an opinion of course. but i’m sure i’m right.
did you know that pie has 117 stolen bases in his minor league career? that’s pretty cool. but he’s been caught 70 FREAKING TIMES. the guy has no clue what he’s doing on a baseball field. none.
So he's not a base stealer. So what? Do we desperately need one of those?
And if there’s no downside and it’s very possible that he could become a pretty good hitter, then what’s the reason for giving up on him after so few ABs?
Pretty good hitter
Maybe they should move Luke Scott back into left field and DH Pie. WIht only one thing to work on, he might yet be good at it. He can play left in a winter league or something.
by perpetualstudent on May 3, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
not the worst idea proposed here
Although I might be in the minority in thinking that while Pie hasn’t looked great out there he also hasn’t been HORRIBLE defensively. I also think that if you’re sucking at hitting, DH-ing can give you too much time to sulk and fixate on your failures. It’s also not like Luke is a stud out there.
Interesting idea
But it would never happen. Just on the premise that Trembley still wants to win, putting a guy who can’t hit at DH would be suicide. Furthermore, I’d like to see Felix work on his defense as well to become a complete baseball player.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
I'm not suggesting making the change permanent.
He could still taking fielding practice. I’m just wondering if focusing intently on just one thing for a month or so could help him get on track for that one thing. Plus, it’d make Luke Scott happy and boost his value, should the team look into trading him.
by perpetualstudent on May 3, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't care if he ever steals a base.
those numbers are just an illustration of how he is unable to translate one of his talents (raw speed) into a baseball skill.
and it’s not “very possible that he could become a pretty good hitter”. we’re at “highly unlikely” at this point and quickly approaching “no chance”.
he’s shown NOTHING. not a single spark of baseball ability in the games i’ve watched. he’s hit a few mistakes hard, that’s about it.
It seems like you formed an opinion
And now everything you see conforms to that opinion.
Pie doesn’t get a hit? He sucks. Pie gets a hit? It was a mistake pitch and took no baseball ability on his part to hit it.
I’m not a professional analyst of baseball talent, but I’ve seen enough to know he has some baseball talent, and I know he has a good enough pedigree as a hitter and baseball player that he’s worth trying out for at least another month.
everything i've seen has led me to the opinion that pie can't hit.
not the other way around. he has little pitch recognition. he’s easily fooled. he’s done nothing to suggest that he can play at this level.
you’re probably right though, i shouldn’t characterize each of his 9 hits as coming on mistake pitches. you do realize he only has 9 hits, right? one, exactly one of them, is an extra base hit. he has no doubles. he has no triples. he has one homerun. i saw him hit it. it was a brutal pitch, up in the zone, in texas. it was off of scott feldman, he of the 5.09 career e.r.a. of course it takes baseball ability to hit even a bad major league pitch. but that doesn’t mean he has enough ability to thrive at this level.
let me ask you this – in what situation is it justifiable to yank a guy after one month? if he was 0 for 54 instead of 9 for 54 would it be ok? what if he had 45 strikeouts already? i need to know where your threshold is. where did you come up with “another month” as a magical timeframe for proving whether he can hit or not?
he can’t hit. just accept it. and hopefully andy will accept it and we’ll all move on with our lives.
Of course he looks like crap
Everyone looks like crap when they are slumping.
All I know is that he’s seeing more pitches, walking more, striking out less, and hitting more line drives then he has in the past. He just hit a nice double today where he drove an outside pitch to the LF gap.
Maybe he sucks, hell, probably he sucks, but I don’t know how any one could know that definitively by watching him for three weeks.
The point is
Who are you to say that? Professional scouts valued this guy very highly as a kid, and he did nothing to impress in the minors. Maybe he won’t pan out, but he deserves a shot considering his potential.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
professional scouts are wrong all the time
so are professional investment bankers, doctors, lawyers, plumbers, MLB managers, and just about anybody else you can think of.
please don’t ask me who i am to question the professionals. 80% of the chatter on this board and any other is a bunch of amateurs (us) acting like we know more than the pros (trembley, mcphail, etc.). that’s a pointless comment. i’d love to audit your comments on this site over the years and see if you ever dared to disagree with the pros running our beloved team.
I wasn't criticizing you
My point wasn’t even that Andy knows more than us, which should be a given, but rather that no one knows whether Pie will ever put everything together.
The bottom line to most people was that he had a spectacular career for 22 years of his life, and then performed poorly in a very, very small sample size.
I wouldn’t even say he has had 300 ABs because his playing time was severely broken up in Chicago, and he hasn’t even been allowed to play everyday and find his groove in Baltimore.
The vast majority of Felix’s baseball life has been a great success, and he at least deserves a thorough look.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
i don't think we're solving this
but i’ll just say that pie’s complete inability to look good doing anything – swinging the bat, running the bases, or playing defense – is making that small sample size less relevant to me.
remember when markakis was struggling in his first year? he was grounding out to second base all the time and generally getting himself out too much. but every 10th at bat you’d see him drive a ball the other way for a single or double and think yes, just do that every time and you’ll be fine. and he was still running relatively deep counts and taking walks, even though he was hitting .200. he sucked, but he still looked pretty good sometimes doing certain things. there was something to build on. well, felix displays none of those positive signs. i just don’t see him looking really good doing anything.
right, because one example proves anything.
look, this argument is unwinnable in the short term. 5 years from now i’ll be able to say “see, pie sucked ass” when he’s 29 and out of baseball. what i’m asking for is our front office to come to that realization now so i don’t have to watch him anymore because it hurts my head to do so.
you on the other hand will always be able to say he deserved a chance. and if we waive him this week, you’ll say he didn’t get it. if we waive him in 3 months, you’ll say it’s still a small sample size and we wrecked his confidence this week after too little time, which is why he sucks. unless we give him the entire year, 162 starts, you’ll be able to scream small sample size, small sample size! give him a chance! because really, anybody can slump for a year.
the question i asked before is what is the magic number of at bats or games or months in which it’s fair to judge this guy? and please have some kind of rationale for it, don’t just pull “three months” or “500 at bats” out of your ass. i’ve seen enough to believe he can’t do it at this level. how long do you need?
You want me to provide others?
There are a ton of players who don’t click or figure it out until 3-4 major league seasons in. Using 311 ABs as an indicator of somebody’s major league abilities is absolutely absurd.
you sir, are absurd :)
i’m still waiting for you to tell me how much time you need. i hope you aren’t suggesting that we just hand pie the job for 3-4 years because that’s how long it takes some people to figure it out.
311 at bats doesn’t work for you. considering what we’ve seen from pie so far, his complete inability to do anything, i disagree with you. it’s not just his failures, but the way he’s failed. he looks utterly clueless out there. but that’s fine. how many does at bats does it take?
I’d give him at least 250 plate appearances of starting every single day (so 190 more than he has now). That should be a little over 2 months.
Then I would take a step back and see how his development is going. Is he completely overmatched? Has he shown progression? Does he have a hole in his swing or is he susceptible to certain types of pitches? Does he look more comfortable in LF?
If he has substantially improved and is hitting well, he’s the starter for the rest of the year. If he’s still struggling but is showing even a little promise, I give him another 100 plate appearances and then re-evaluate again. If there are no other appealing options (let’s say Reimold is hurt or is already playing everyday at DH), then I give him another 100 PAs even if he looks completely hopeless.
You don't seem to understand that 311 ABs is NOTHING.
So it’s no longer worth debating this with you. That’s barely more than half a season. Get serious.
More examples for your ridiculous impatience
Brady Anderson had .212/.272/.286 through 325 ABs.
Torii Hunter had a .254/..303/..365ish through 400 ABs.
Curtis Granderson didn’t have an OBP above .330 until he got 600 ABs in a season.
Carlos Quentin hit .230 over his first 400 ABs.
Andruw Jones his .227 over his first 500 ABs.
Gary Sheffield hit .240 with a 300 OBP for his first 450 ABs.
Paul Konerko never hit over .219/.284/.384 through 464 ABs.
Obviously these are just a handful of examples, but sometimes player development takes patience. 300, 400, and even 500 ABs are often not enough to judge a player. We are a rebuilding and so we can afford patience.
If Felix was batting even .210
I think it would be easier to take.
But .167???? That’s kind of hard to explain away. That’s almost 40 points lower than your worst example above.
Matt Wieters took batting practice this morning. There were no survivors.
What's the difference?
There’s just no way his true talent is .167 in the major leagues, the guy hit .299 in 600+ games in the minors, and most of the time he was one of the youngest players in the league.
I just don’t get how he’s worth keeping around if three more of his groundballs or dying quails found a hole and he was batting .222, but because that hasn’t happened we should give up on him?
Pie doesn’t have a single infield hit this year. Cesar Izturis has 5. Hell, even Zaunie has an infield hit.
These things even out over time, and Pie needs more time.
Much of this slump (and yes, this is a slump, there is no effing way that a player with Pie’s resume is this bad of a hitter) is Pie’s own doing, but the simple fact is – dude has hit into a lot of bad luck.
Well...he hit .215 in his first 177 ABs and .241 in his next 83 ABs.
The .167 number you quote is only in 54 ABs this year. So…again not really convinced.
His average over the course of his 314 major league ABs is exactly .213, so does that then make it easier to take as you say above?
Actually 3 points better than the threshold you proposed.
Obviously these are just a handful of examples, but sometimes player development takes patience. 300, 400, and even 500 ABs are often not enough to judge a player. We are a rebuilding and so we can afford patience.
We do have minor league stats as well though which really don’t suggest he can handle LF. As DKDC pointed out, IF his glove is really strong (and so far that doesn’t appear to be the case), he doesn’t need to hit a ton in order to be average LF. But I don’t know why the O’s are investing so much energy in developing an average LF AT BEST. Pie is a CF. He needs to be on a team which will allow him to play that spot. I’m fine with riding out Pie for another month or two but I want to see what Reimold can do soon.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
Don’t get me wrong, average LF at major league minimum is valuable. But Reimold is more likely to be an average LF than Pie (Reimold has better slugging numbers in the minors). And Reimold has a shot of being an above average LF whereas i really don’t think that’s the case with Pie.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
A whole lot of scouts disagree with you.
Nobody ever projected Reimold to be more than average and Pie had the star tag for a long time.
I never said he projected to be more than average. I said, “Reimold has a shot of being an above average LF,” whereas Pie’s ceiling in LF IS average. I completely agree that most analysts project him as a league average LF. But Reimold has a higher ceiling particularly when you consider that Pie’s defense doesn’t look as good advertised.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
Pie had the star tag for a long time.
In CF yes.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
Current sabermetric conventional wisdom says
That if you put a natural CF in LF, he doesn’t lose much of his value. An average hitting and defensive CF will be an above average fielding LF (by about 10 runs) and a below average hitting LF (by a little more than 10 runs). So an average CF should be a roughly average LF.
Of course, as we’ve seen with Pie, your mileage may vary in the individual case, and position changes aren’t as easy as we think. But if Pie has time to learn the position and becomes a plus-fielding LF, his projection doesn’t change much versus being a CF.
That if you put a natural CF in LF, he doesn’t lose much of his value. An average hitting and defensive CF will be an above average fielding LF (by about 10 runs) and a below average hitting LF (by a little more than 10 runs). So an average CF should be a roughly average LF.
Yeah, I remember Dave Cameron talking about this conversion who I certainly trust. What I don’t get then is why Pie was projected to be a star in the first place then. Star is sort of vague word but he looks like a very good CF, but star? I think it’s stretch to see him as Griffey good… Sizemore good is more realistic but even that might a slight stretch.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
But Pie doesn't play CF.
There are positional differences although as DKDC points out, the value you lose by moving from CF to LF isn’t too much. But he’s no star in the LF.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
No, because as I already said, I don’t see why Pie is projected to be a star in the first place. He looks like he could be a good CF, but star? Granted there’s a lot of play in defining star. In any case, DKDC didn’t say you DON"T LOSE value when shifting a player from CF to LF. You do lose value, the lost isn’t seen as large, thatt’s all, but you still lose value.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
my god are you stubborn
no, generally speaking, you don’t give up on a player after 300 at bats. yes, there are countless examples of players who struggled early in their careers and ended up being productive major leaguers. but i’m asking you to look at the guy and tell me what you see.
and let’s not get into some stats vs. scouts debate, i absolutely believe in statistical analysis. but let’s put me in there as the everyday left fielder. do you think it would take 300 at bats to determine that i can’t hit a goddamn bit? probably not.
i’m not a scout, but i’ve watched a lot of baseball and felix pie is not good enough to play in the majors. we keep focusing on his offense, which is abysmal. but he’s 1 for 3 in stolen base attempts this year. i already mentioned his pitiful performance in the minors in stealing bases. and you don’t need to be a genius to see that he can’t fucking play left field. he just can’t – i don’t need to watch him screw up any more out there.
and what does it matter? probably not at all. certainly it doesn’t do anything to the o’s long term hopes of winning a world series in a few years. but i pay a lot of money to watch them in person. i buy the t-shirts and the hats. i spend hours of my time living and dying with every pitch most nights of the week. i engage in long distance arguments and smack talk with yankee and red sox friends from college. and pie is just fucking embarassing. he’s a joke. and you can tell from watching him and you can tell from his numbers, even in only 300 at bats. he doesn’t belong in MLB.
in general, 300 at bats is not enough. but in this specific case it is. and we’re having long arguments over SAMPLE SIZES when i know and you know deep down that this guy blows ass and he’s never going to amount to anything.
And I'm telling you I don't care what I see through the 54 ABs that I've watched him take.
They mean absolutely nothing.
Also I don't even know what most of your argument means.
You have debates with Sox and Yanks fans and Pie is embarrassing you in them? Get serious man – the O’s haven’t finished above 500 in 12 years and you’re worried about our number 7 hitter?
He isn’t a good base stealer so he’s worthless? Do some reading about the value of stolen bases please. Nobody cares whether he steals 30-40 bases per year. We have one of those guys already.
His one month in LF has showed me that he’s got some learning to do at the new position.
What I can tell from watching him for the 54 ABS (!!! for fucks sake!!!) is that he’s incredibly athletic and also incredibly overmatched at the moment. I’m not inclined to give up on him after 54 ABs (for fucks sake!!!) in an O’s uniform. This is a goddamn rebuilding team – they require patience. If you don’t have it good luck making it through as an O’s fan.
oh my god
yes, in fact, i am concerned about our number 7 hitter. when he doesn’t deserve to be on a major league roster i am. the guy sucks.
you’re not really comprehending anything at this point. i very clearly stated the following above:
“i don’t care if he ever steals a base. those numbers are just an illustration of how he is unable to translate one of his talents (raw speed) into a baseball skill.”
the fact that he’s fast as all hell and lacks the instincts to swipe a bag or two without getting thrown out 40% of the time is a problem to me. that doesn’t concern you at all? that his greatest physical asset can’t be used properly because he has zero feel for the game? it sure as hell isn’t doing anything for his defense – he may as well be fat and slow.
i have patience for people with ability. i have patience for tillman, for wieters, for matusz, for arrieta. i don’t have patience for people who are never going to amount to anything. pie is corey patterson. pie is ass.
again, deep down you know this. deep down you’re sure that i’m right. but some misguided piece of your brain is hellbent on giving this guy more and more time when it’s clear that he can’t actually do anything with those opportunities.
How would you ever know if a person has ability if they never get a chance to prove it?
FOR THE LAST TIME (YOU’RE OBVIOUSLY STRUGGLING WITH THIS) 300 ABS IS NOT ENOUGH TO JUDGE A PLAYER ON. SEE THE LIST OF STUDS ABOVE WHO WERE TERRIBLE FOR THEIR FIRST 300, 400, AND 500 ABS.
And I don’t know what you know about what I know “deep down”, but the only thing I know right now about Pie is that he has a lot of skills but currently isn’t producing. Saying anything more than that just shows your ignorance, so if that’s your goal, have at it.
What happens if Matusz, Tillman, or Arrietta have a bad first 10 starts in the bigs are you going to vote for releasing them? So stupid.
you're nuts
let’s say after tillman comes up that he allows 6 runs over 4 innings, walks 5 guys, strikes out 1, and throws 90 pitches. and then he does it again. and again. and again. and again. so that after 10 starts he’s failed to make it out of the 4th inning. that he’s walked 5 times as many as he’s struck out. i think it might be reasonable to conclude that he’s either hurt or not ready for prime time. if tilman is averaging 5 innings, a 6.50 e.r.a., but showing some strikeouts or mixing in an ok start with a bunch of bad ones, that’s fine. but he can’t come up and be completely and totally overmatched and expect everyone to be ok with it.
because that’s what we’re talking about here. not a guy going through a little slump. we’re talking about a guy with an OPS below .600 for his MLB career. i looked up outfielders with a minimum of 300 plate appearances and a sub-.600 OPS in every year since 2001. you know who i found?
michael bourn
joey gathright
corey patterson
that’s it. those are the only outfielders in the last 8 years who were allowed to pollute a major league lineup for more than 300 plate appearances in a season and be that completely inept. i believe all three of them are known for their stolen bases and defense. pie’s amazing catch last night notwithstanding, he does not offer either of those advantages. and those are three fucking terrible hitters. just like pie.
your problem is that you aren’t looking at his performance at all – you think that the outcome of 300 at bats means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. that they aren’t at all meaningful. you can’t just wipe the slate clean. they’re still an actual part of pie’s historical performance.
if tilman or matusz or wieters came up and scuffled and went through growing pains but showed some promising moments, of course i wouldn’t overreact to it. but this isn’t an overreaction. pie has shown none of that promise.
Again and again and again for 1/2 of a season?
That’s what you’re saying. 300 ABs is one half of a season. If Tillman or Arrietta or Matusz comes up and does horrible for 1/2 of a season you’re going to dump them? If that’s the case you should find a different team to route for. Or maybe just don’t watch sports anymore. You obviously don’t have the intellect for it.
Also the stat that you looked up is completely meaningless since the issue is whether we should keep him around for longer than 300 ABs to START HIS CAREER – not whether he should be getting 300+ ABs per year if he continues this performance year after year. lol. Good try though.
I guess you don't have any arguments other then "Oh my god!" "God are you stubborn", "Can you even read?", "You're nuts"
Good talk see you out there.
let's try this
i just need you to acknowledge that, even for a young player, all struggles are not created equal. surely if pie was 0 for 300 you wouldn’t argue that he needs more time. or if he were 15 for 300, you would probably agree that he isn’t good enough to play in the majors, if not forever, then at least not yet. if you can’t stop being stubborn for half a second and admit that, i don’t know how we’d ever have a reasonable conversation about anything baseball related.
so we need to agree that there are varying levels of suck, some of which are acceptable and some of which are not. and then we can just accept the fact that you think he shows enough promise to keep playing him based on his track record or whatever else you’re looking at. and we can accept that i think he is awful and beyond a reasonable skill level for MLB at this point, as evidenced by how ungodly bad he’s been in his 300+ at bats. and we’ll just agree to disagree on that point.
and then we can both go about our lives and you can stop being a dick. because, and i hate to be the one to break this to you, you aren’t as smart as you think you are.
To be fair...
he had more than 250 ABs in the NL with the Cubs, and did NOTHING. His OPS+ for 2009 is 20. Mark Belanger was better than a 20. Luis Hernandez last year posted a 48, for goodness’ sake.
With Nick Markakis and Adam Jones in their first two admittedly bad months, you at least saw flashes that they got it. Every so often, you could see progress. With Adam, specifically, it was dealing with an MLB curve.
I have yet to see that from Felix Pie. He looks absolutely lost in the field, lost at bat, and lost on the basepaths. Maybe it would be fair to give him another 3 weeks. But dude looks LOST in MLB, and at 300 ABS in the bigs, you’d think he’d at least show SOME signs of progress. If he has, I haven’t seen it.
Matt Wieters took batting practice this morning. There were no survivors.
He had 180 in one season
And 80 in another; breaking that down even further, his 260 total ABs between two seasons were split up as he was subbed in defensively occasionally, given the nod to start every fourth day, and sometimes put in as a pinch hitter.
250 ABs alone is a tiny sample size, but having them in bits and pieces over the course of two seasons makes them pretty meaningless.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
Markakis is a pretty special case - don't really think anybody expected Pie to be the next Markakis.
No matter how you slice it, 300+ ABs is an absurdly small sample size. Seems ridiculous to me to judge based on that.
Two days ago it seemed like Pie couldn't do anything right
and now that the O’s want to sit him more often they are doing him a disservice by helping the team? I agree that at the beginning of the season the plan was to stick with him long-term, at least half a season, and that seemed like a fair plan to me. But before I condemn the decision as impulsive, I have to think there’s a lot more to it that the fans just don’t see. According to media reports, Pie has taken extra fielding and batting practice, and that’s good. But what has his attitude been to that? Does he have confidence in himself as a player?
by perpetualstudent on May 3, 2009 12:18 PM EDT reply actions
We were critical of Pie's play
But still wanted him to succeed, and his best opportunity to do well will arise with more ABs.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
Let's let Andy do his thing
I have to believe that the original plan was for Pie to get more of a leash. This move was expedited by the fact that Reimold is absolutely tearing up AAA. Plus, lets be honest, no one will claim Pie at this point.
no one will claim Pie at this point.
You think that out of 29 other teams, not a single scout in any organization would think that their coaching staff could nurture this guy into being a productive player? I don’t buy that.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
Look its about options
Nolan has never really dominated in the minors, he has repeated, been hurt, etc. He did finish Double A strong but he was old for the league. Now he is forcing the issue…bring him up and let him play.
Freel needs to be released. There isnt room for him.
What we really need to do is DH Luke and Wiggy, play Nolan, keep Pie as depth. I do believe someone will claim Pie although I would have to go team by team as it isnt as clear to me that its so. He hasnt quite turned into Corey Patterson, yet.
I hate to say this but I really think for now Lou Montanez is on the outside. Can he hit. Sure. But does he have upside? Probably not. Quite frankly, I think Montanez might round out the roster but what if Jones goes down again.? I guess the question is who has more value Montanez or Pie as the last guy? I think you can replace Montanez pretty easy. For example, you call Emil Brown if you need a replacement. Shannon Stewart. Montanez, while you root for him is a replaceable part with a phone call.
Wiggington is frustrating right now…. He is rolling over on balls outside down and jumping at balls away up and getting jammed on pitches in especially from lefties. But when I watch I cant even get the idea he has an approach-ball away go to right or ball in drive, he is jumping at pitches and not taking many. He is a slow starter, probably pressing and notoriously streaky but at the moment he looks clueless.
Just to play Devil's advocate
You’ve manipulated situations to prove your point.
In your post, it was acknowledged that Nolan has never really dominated despite his age and repetition of levels, yet you still believe that he is “forcing the issue” despite being a notoriously streaky hitter. By this logic, less than one hundred ABs at AAA is enough time to prove yourself as a hitter.
If this small of a sample size is enough for Nolan to force his way onto the big league team, then hasn’t Montanez’s limited stint in Baltimore proved that he can’t hit? Last year Lou Put up an OBP of .763, and now he is sporting a robust .593. He clearly can’t hit or play the field since he has been given ample time, right?
If you do, in fact, believe that Nolan’s performance has been lengthy enough to merit a promotion, then hasn’t Lou’s been enough to prove that he isn’t a major league player?
Conversely, if Montanez hasn’t been given enough time, then he is either in a slump or working things out, right? If so, then isn’t Felix still working things out? Shouldn’t he be given more time?
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
It's a matter of numbers
It’s one thing when only one major league staff has had a chance to do something with him. Now, two major league coaching staffs have had a chance with no improvement. Even if he does get claimed, is it really a big deal? All I’m saying is give Reimold a chance. If the first move is to option Montanez back down and not expose Pie to waivers, Nolan deserves to be called up with a chance to win the LF job.
Doesn't Pie deserve a shot too?
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
If he had shown ANY sign of improvement
I’d say yes. But he is a black hole of suck at the bottom of our lineup now. ZAUN sucks, too, but we have a relatively good idea of when that problem gets fixed, and thy name is Matt Wieters.
The though of Felix Pie flailing about at the plate and in LF for an indeterminate amount of time is depressing. With Adam Jones, you’d look at his ABs and realize there was progress, even before it started showing up in the numbers.
Felix just looks like Brandon Fahey with a better-fitting uniform.
Matt Wieters took batting practice this morning. There were no survivors.
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