Manny Tests Positive
This isn't O's related, but we used to have to play this guy extensively, and Manny is a major figure in baseball.
Ramirez will be suspended 50 games, and it's reported that he'll lose something like $8 million.
Obviously all the details aren't out yet, but if he tested positive this year, then we really can't say that we're past the steroid era yet, not even close.
Update - Boras says it was medication prescribed to Manny for "personal medical use."
10 months ago
Baltimo
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Funny stuff.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
by BPinOK on May 7, 2009 12:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Beat me by two minutes
Everyone does steroids. I don’t think you can point to anyone these days and say “well at least he’s clean.”
by Steve. on May 7, 2009 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"Well, at least he's clean."
I think Greg Maddux, but even my confidence in him is wavering as time passes.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on May 7, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
'cept Griffey.
That may help to explain why he’s been more injury prone than a lot of guys.
Jioe Flaacco, Hon!!! "He’s like a live JUGS machine."
by dayzd toe on May 7, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Cal had tested positive
My faith in baseball would have been shattered.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
If Cal had tested positive I may have given up on baseball.
by Gorilla Bird on May 7, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank Thomas
I honestly believe it. Career followed a normal arc and he was always one of the staunchest anti steroid voices. And he was leading that White Sox charge, back in the day, to have the entire team refuse to take a test IN ORDER to instantly trigger the 5% threshold that would (and did) institute mandatory testing down the road. I can’t find the link at the moment but I remember reading Joe Posnanski make Thomas’ case better than I ever could.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on May 7, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is ZizzZazz a banned product?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBzCvibsQ-Q
After watching that video, I think it should banned. The video, I mean…
by PhilR8 on May 7, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes,
I remember all this about Frank. He and Griffey are the ones I desperately hold onto as examples of “clean” players.
by Mountian Goats on May 8, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I think saying that “everyone” does steroids is a bit of a reach… But I get the sentiment… It’s hard to belive someone is not on steroids when revelations like this continue to come out. But from the reactions I’ve heard (and things alluded to in columns written before this revelation) it’s no big surprise.
by Mountian Goats on May 8, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crap
That was supposed to be a reply to Steve above.
by Mountian Goats on May 8, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manny's Positive Test
Obviously we should be blaming A-Rod for this. Gotta keep Selena Roberts employed.
Still, Manny is involved in two of my five favorite plays. The one where he high fived the guy at Camden Yards, and the one where he dove like his life depended on it to cut off a throw in from Damon that never should have been cut off.
For the record, my favorite is Canseco taking one off his dome to cost the Rangers a home run.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on May 7, 2009 12:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If he did steroids/HGH/PEDs this year
Then he is dumber than we thought.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Manny cutoff
Was hilarious. IIRC, it was against the Orioles at Fenway, and it resulted in an inside-the-park homer for David Newhan.
"The United States is the New York Yankees of countries...powerful and respected until the year 2000." - Homer J. Simpson
by Brotz13 on May 7, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
less a "cutoff" than an "interception"
"Believe it or not, I read the paper." - Nick Markakis
by 2632 on May 7, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What made it great was that you can see that Manny was thinking “I MUST PUT FORTH MAXIMUM EFFORT!” And boy did he! That was an amazing dive, and a spin as he hit the grass.
…and it wound up costing the team, which from my perspective was just wonderful. The one time he actually TRIED, even a little, in the field, and he screws the pooch. Awesome.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on May 7, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My favorite Manny "play"
was the time he wandered into the Green Monster during a pitching change and started talking on a cell phone. FOCUS! INTENSITY!
It’s on YouTube and everything.
"If you had Steve Trachsel's stuff, you wouldn't want to throw it either." -- Joe Angel
by Fear and Trembley on May 7, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad...
this didn’t happen when he was with the Red Sox. A lot of their delusional fans actually believe everyone on their team is clean.
"If you know how to cheat, start now." - Earl Weaver
by rebop on May 7, 2009 12:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure it DID happen with the Red Sox...
…. but SOMEHOW didn’t wind up in George Mitchell’s report.
Things that make you go hmmmm….
It's 4 in the morning. Too much to drink. All the girls look hot. So, the Nationals are Jennifer Lopez to me. —Julian Tavarez
by zknower on May 7, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In fact,
In February, Rodriguez admitted that he used a performance-enhancing substance from 2001 to 2003 after it was revealed he tested positive for steroids in a preliminary phase of baseball’s drug-testing system in 2003. Positive tests then did not yet draw punishment. Now, the first positive drug test draws a 50-game ban.
It's 4 in the morning. Too much to drink. All the girls look hot. So, the Nationals are Jennifer Lopez to me. —Julian Tavarez
by zknower on May 7, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you guys talking about...
It was just “Manny being Manny”!
Jioe Flaacco, Hon!!! "He’s like a live JUGS machine."
by dayzd toe on May 7, 2009 12:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dear Commissioner Selig
In light of recent events, we would like to renew our petition to be moved into the NL West division.
Sincerely,
Peter Angelos
Andy McPhail
Dave Trembley
by math_geek on May 7, 2009 12:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Trade Luke to LA?
Now would be a perfect time.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 12:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Boras camp
says it wasn’t steroids & it was a prescription. MLB is classifying it as “performance enhancing”. Doesn’t sound like an athlete’s foot treatment.
From the Land of Pleasant Living...
by OEutaw on May 7, 2009 12:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
hmmm
lets wait for the facts. JC Romero got screwed over by the MLB last year, best case scenario for Manny is that the situation is similar. Or Manny could have been roiding since high school (someone call up Selena Roberts). We’ll eventually know how serious of an offense this is.
by UMterp08 on May 7, 2009 12:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Selena Roberts
Kinda crazy how everyone is vilifying her for doing her job.
If she doesn’t pursue that story then the world doesn’t know how much of a swindler and cheater Alex Rodriguez is.
You are welcome to live your life in ignorance. I prefer to get to the truth of the matter, to the degree that that’s possible.
I get pissed off when I hear everyone saying, “the fans are complicit in all this.” NO. The fans who want Selena Roberts to go away are complicit in all this. The fans who appreciate her work are not.
It's 4 in the morning. Too much to drink. All the girls look hot. So, the Nationals are Jennifer Lopez to me. —Julian Tavarez
by zknower on May 7, 2009 12:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think
The whole Duke lacrosse team fiasco means she won’t get the benefit of the doubt from a lot of people.
by dkdc on May 7, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was her?
Damn.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, a lot of people have their hands dirty over that one
Roberts wasn’t the worst offender, by any stretch. But this column didn’t age so well:
http://select.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/sports/31roberts.html?_r=1
by dkdc on May 7, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know or care that much about the A-Rod book
But it has been described in things I’ve read as poorly-sourced and filled with sloppy journalism. Apparently she makes uses a large number of unnamed sources and frequently no sources at all. It was also described as a long blog post.
I have not/will not read it, so I don’t know.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty bad
At least what I’ve read of it. She accuses Slappy of using steroids in high school and her only proof is that he put on a lot of muscle between his sophomore and junior years. If this is representative of her journalistic integrity, I don’t want to read more. I didn’t know that she was part of the sensationalization of the Duke Lacrosse fiasco.
by uneasy rider on May 8, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s easier to feel that way about a Yankee player who is general understood to be a less-than-congenial fellow. But, it’s not as though Alex Rodriguez is the only swindler or cheater to have graced baseball in recent history. That, for me, is what frustrates me about Selena Roberts’ book. It’s as though she has identified the problem in baseball (which we’ve known about for the better part of this decade at this point, so bull on her for identifying it in 2009), set forth to expose the issue in detail, and decided along the way that everything was the fault of one man, Alex Rodriguez.
At that point, she is profiting off of the misery of others. Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying anyone should feel bad for A-Rod because he used steroids and was eventually outed for doing so. But at the same time, she could have addressed the larger issue of performance enhancing drugs in baseball, addressed the Mitchell report (which did not include Rodriguez’s name, and thus we could conclude may otherwise be lacking), or even looked at the numerous players on any given team (including our Orioles) who used and abused performance enhancing drugs. Instead, Roberts chose to vilify one man in particular in order to cash in. God bless her for appealing to an audience and getting paid, but in terms of morality, I feel like it puts her just a bit higher on the moral scale than a drug dealer.
It’s not about “anonymous sources” for me, it’s about how one’s efforts affects the lives of others. Again, A-Rod was hardly a beloved character before this episode, so defending him on any level is unlikely to allow me to make my point any more easily. Still, it’s distasteful, to me, to diminish the accomplishments and assault the character of one man for the sins of, in all probability, the majority of the workforce in which that man exists.
Using sealed evidence and conjecture to draw certain conclusions, particularly when major league players and teammates have defended A-Rod against certain accusations made using said conjecture, yes, those are blemishes on Roberts journalistic integrity as far as I’m concerned. However, I think it’s up to the reader to consider the evidence put forth by those means accordingly.
The entire episode leaves me feeling like Roberts has an ax to grind against A-Rod personally, and that makes me entirely incapable of taking her journalistic endeavors regarding A-Rod seriously.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on May 7, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
So, Upton Sinclair never should have written "The Jungle"
and Woordward & Bernstein never should have written “All The President’s Men” and Rachel Carson should never have written “Silent Spring” because people got hurt?
Here’s a thought – maybe the people that got hurt – A-Rod (violating employer’s rules), meat company owners (poisoning untold thousands) G. Gordon Liddy et.al. (violating LOTS of federal laws), and Monsanto et.al. (poisoning untold thousands) – the exposure of their deeds served the greater good?
Matt Wieters took batting practice this morning. There were no survivors.
by duck on May 8, 2009 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Silent Spring
Do some research on the current scientific opinion on Silent Spring. No it shouldn’t have been written. It was filled with shoddy reasoning and even poorer scientific analysis. Carson is indirectly responsible for millions of kids dying from malaria. If you report the truth and guilty people suffer, that’s great. But, if you twist the truth (like Roberts does and Carson did), even if your target is guilty, it’s still (obviously) unethical. I don’t like Arod and the other users. They’ve been proven to have done plenty, we don’t need to make up new things they may have done.
by uneasy rider on May 8, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not even apples & oranges
More like apples & , eh, well, tainted beef.
Comparing A-Rod to turn-of-last-century meat packers, Watergate burglers, etc. is just a bit of an exaggeration.
And yes, it makes a great deal of difference that the players were guaranteed privacy during the time frame we’re talking about here.
I don’t blame Roberts for writing what she wrote or the 2 in SF for writing what they wrote about Bonds (assuming their facts are straight). And I don’t even blame them for protecting their sources. Sometimes showing honour to dishonourable people is necessary.
But to the shit stains who released information to the media that was SUPPOSED to be secret, either by MLB/Union agreement or Grand Jury rules of evidence, well, I’m generally in favour of closing Gitmo, but for those snitches I’d be willing to make an exception.
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is forever.
by sluggo 2.0 on May 9, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Put it in the books now
My official guess is Viagra.
by brooklynlovesorioles on May 7, 2009 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No, no
Raffy was Vitamin B12 that got spiked by Miguel Tejada.
"Whether your name is Gehrig or Ripken, DiMaggio or Robinson, or that of some youngster who picks up his bat or puts on his glove, you are challenged by the game of baseball to do your very best day in and day out. That's all I've ever tried to do."
by spike2131 on May 7, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we please finally admit it?
Since the late 1960’s steroid-users have dominated professional sports. For some reason that still isn’t clear to me, baseball fans looked past guys like Reggie Jackson and Dave Parker and assumed their sport was “clean” (although everyone knew they were all hopped up on amphetamines). At best that was a silly and immature assumption, at worst it was willful blindness to a pretty obvious truth.
Right now everyone is treating A-Rod like he is Satan himself because he did steroids and lied about it. Gee whiz, it’s looking more and more like everybody else did steroids too. A-Rod was confronted with something unpleasant and embarrassing and tried to weasel his way of it. That doesn’t make him a bad person, it just makes him yet another normal, fallible person who makes a bad situation into a worse by not being more forthcoming. The only reason he looks so bad right now is because someone directly asked him if he used them and he was stupid enough to answer. Why was he asked? Because everyone hates him. No one ever asked Cal Ripken if he did steroids or Don Mattingly or Kirby Puckett (who actually was a phony complete and utter piece of shit, by the way). I bet at least one (and probably all three) of them did. Let’s see how they would look under the same circumstances.
Here’s the thing that bothers me: ultimately this isn’t a big deal. I remember in the 1980’s when it turned out everybody in baseball was a cocaine addict and hanging out with actual gangsters. That was much worse. Also, I like steroids baseball. That’s old-time Orioles baseball. I thought 1980’s cokeball like the Cardinals and Royals played was boring. I want to see those big cocksuckers hit the ball over the fence.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 1:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Boras says he's innocent
Then that’s good enough for me.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on May 7, 2009 1:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The real scandal here
is all these quack doctors who don’t understand pharmacology well enough to keep their berjillionaire sports star / patients from being suspended. Pity that the AMA doesn’t go after these jerks who are ruining baseball for us.
by typozzz on May 7, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don’t bring HIM up ;-)
Jioe Flaacco, Hon!!! "He’s like a live JUGS machine."
by dayzd toe on May 7, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A-Rod was confronted with something unpleasant and embarrassing and tried to weasel his way of it. That doesn’t make him a bad person, it just makes him yet another normal, fallible person who makes a bad situation into a worse by not being more forthcoming.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive; you can be a bad person and still be considered “normal.”
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 1:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Meant to reply to yuri
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is bad about him?
I still haven’t figured out what exactly is so bad about the guy. He’s kind of weird, but I still fail to see how he’s an affirmatively a bad person along the lines of Ty Cobb, Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Maury Wills, the first Frank Thomas, Early Wynn, etc. Lying about something embarrassing alone doesn’t make you a bad person alone. Neither does cheating.
Plus, he was thought of in this light the minute he started playing for the Yankees, well-before any of this came out.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Relative to the sport of baseball in the 21st century, he’s a bad person; cheating and then lying about it is not admissible if you’re being paid by people who view you as an idyllic figure.
Outside of baseball, though, I agree that he is just normal, and if you compare him to past ballplayers, then he isn’t as bad either.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way
You are really off base on this one. Cheating and lying about baseball are established institutions in baseball. They always have been and always will be.
If you are worried about him not living up to his image, well I can easily list 20 guys who are worse sinners (and were bigger stars) than A-Rod. Do you realize what a lousy person Babe Ruth was, for example? No one ever found out while he was alive, but he pulled a much bigger snow job than A-Rod ever did.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this logic is really faulty
lots of things are estbalished institutions or behaviors. that doesn’t mean they’re right. I don’t understand why it’s so terrible to you that some baseball fans find this upsetting?
by brooklynlovesorioles on May 7, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because (no offense) I find it stupid and annoying
Baseball has been letting down fans for 100 years, but people still somehow keep being disappointed in it.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There have been a lot of shitty racists and unfaithful assholes in baseball
But irrespective of whether Rodriguez wanted it or not, he was quite literally idolized by small children, and when you become more of a symbol, in this case of baseball perfection, than a person, then it’s not acceptable to cheat and lie.
It might not be fair to Alex Rodriguez the human being, but having the world look up to you as a role model is the “downside” of earning $300 million.
I understand your point about Babe Ruth, but it’s hard to compare the two as reporters in that time normally wouldn’t ruin a player’s reputation for their own personal benefit, and the invasive media coverage now contributes to how much athletes are looked up to.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait for him to talk
As a baseball fan, it does bother me that a lot of the players I grew up watching were on steroids. But let’s remember that taking the steroids is only half of the transgression. It’s guys like Rafi, A-Rod, Clemens and McGwire, who just would not admit it.
Before we vilify Manny, I think we have to wait. Maybe he will just come out and say what it was, maybe it was something akin to HGH and he just admits it.
But you know what? After watching A-Rod destroy my team, it pisses me off a ton that he might have been cheating. It’s one thing to see a great player hit a walk-off grand slam at OPACY and just beat my terrible closer. But if guys on my team are not on roids and A-Rod is, why should I be ok that he gets that hit? Just because everyone was doing it? Or they didn’t win a World Series?
by brooklynlovesorioles on May 7, 2009 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The guys on your team were on steriods
The Orioles had the second-most players named in the Mitchell Report. Unfortunately they still sucked.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah I know
it didn’t have to be the O’s specifically. Just any team. I’m just saying it does matter. Whoever it taking them, if they’re better than they should be, and steroids are not available to every player, it’s not a level playing field. And Yankee or not, I really thought A-Rod was awesome to watch. And now I just feel stupid for being impressed.
by brooklynlovesorioles on May 7, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would guess that every team has about the same number of steroid users
The fact that the Yankees and O’s had the most players listed in the Mitchell Report leads me to believe that steroid use is so prevalent among Major League teams that it doesn’t provide a competitive advantage.
A-Rod still is awesome to watch, just like Norm Cash was awesome to watch the hit .361 with 41 home runs using a corked bat and Tim Raines was awesome to watch while he was doing coke and all the great players like Pujols who will be revealed to be steroid users were awesome to watch as well.
Baseball has never been a sport that rewards cynical unappreciation. Remember, we are talking about a sport that had one of its championships undeniably fixed and with several more highly probable.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was cute how no Red Sox were named in the Mitchell Report
Nice how they overlooked the BIGGEST FRIGGIN’ STAR OF THE TEAM, just because the guy who wrote the report owned a piece of the Red Sox.
"Whether your name is Gehrig or Ripken, DiMaggio or Robinson, or that of some youngster who picks up his bat or puts on his glove, you are challenged by the game of baseball to do your very best day in and day out. That's all I've ever tried to do."
by spike2131 on May 7, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would hold off the judgement
My instincts tell me that there is more to this story, and that it might ultimately come to light that ManRam wasn’t on ‘roids. I have no reason to believe this other than a feeling, so I’m not going to push the point that hard. He just doesn’t strike me as a roid user. I don’t know the details of steroid testing and what not, but like he said, he’s taken something like 15 tests in the last 5 years and passed all of them. Why would he start now?
by VB O's Guy on May 7, 2009 1:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Reminder to Everyone
Brian Roberts did steroids.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 1:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah
But he didn’t go one 60 minutes and lie about it, take softball questions from a has been journalist and then have a pointless press conference to make people feel bad for him. A-Rod is different.
by brooklynlovesorioles on May 7, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't see why
Brian Roberts got caught doing steroids and was left alone. A-Rod wasn’t caught using steroids, but still wasn’t left alone.
Although I know he used steroids, he has never been caught doing so and probably never will be.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes you do
You just don’t agree with it in principle.
Brian was left alone because he is a relative small leadoff hitter who plays for the Baltimore Orioles; Alex Rodriguez is quite possibly going to have the best numbers of any baseball player to ever live and he plays for the New York Yankees.
To be quite honest, fans don’t really understands what steroids do, and therefore the preconceived notion is that only jacked cleanup hitters use it.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and besides...
brian roberts was not caught. larry bigbie alleged that he had seen roberts use them. it’s not like he tested positive, right?
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on May 7, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Bigbie said that he never saw Brian take steroids, but Brian once admitted to him that he tried it one time.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on May 7, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right...
still, a guy saying he had tried it and admitting it is not really like getting caught, no?
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on May 7, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He hit for more power in 2005 than he ever had in the past or since.
There isn’t proof, but BRob’s 2005 looks suspicious. Of course, he immediatly returned to being a slap hitter, so even if you believe he used in ’05 because of his power jump, I think you now have to believe that he is clean due to his power decline.
by uneasy rider on May 8, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't buy that
I lived in New York City for 14 years. He was treated by a different standard the day he showed up.
A-Rod might be a big star, but in New York City he wasn’t compared to Derek Jeter and no would’ve ever dared to ask him if he used steroids (which he probably did).
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I was just explaining why a guy like Roberts is left alone while Alex isn’t.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess ultimately my point is
Using steroids don’t make you a bad guy. Brian Roberts used them and he’s a pretty good guy. Being a bad guy requires doing something affirmatively bad and using steroids and lying about don’t count as affirmatively bad things.
In my mind, throwing games, sexually assaulting employees of the team you play for, shoving employees of the team you play for who are over 70, physically assaulting your teammates for your own sadistic amusement, choking the wife of a fan who asks you for an autograph, flipping off your own fans on a regular basis, beating your wife, smuggling in drugs from South America, and things of that sort are more along the lines of what makes you an affirmatively bad person.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brian Roberts isn't idolized on the same level
See my response above.
There isn’t a right or wrong answer to this question, I just think that it’s contextual, and players like Rodriguez or Jordan need to be held to some kind of a moral standard.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that standard is inconsistently applied
Jordan cheated on his wife left and right and gambled excessively. He was also kind of weird himself.
He was a million times bigger a star than A-Rod, played at the same time as A-Rod, and never saw that same kind of scrutiny.
It’s 2009. It’s time to leave childish things behind and stop idolizing athletes. Parents who allow their children to do so are being remiss in their duties as parents. Expecting athletes to behave any differently than they ever have is unrealistic.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
stop idolizing athletes
Believe me, I agree, but athletes are idolized exponentially more than teachers, policemen, army rangers, politicians, or virtually any other public service worker.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's my response from above
Irrespective of whether Rodriguez wanted it or not, he was quite literally idolized by small children, and when you become more of a symbol, in this case of baseball perfection, than a person, then it’s not acceptable to cheat and lie.
It might not be fair to Alex Rodriguez the human being, but having the world look up to you as a role model is the "downside" of earning $300 million.
I understand your point about Babe Ruth, but it’s hard to compare the two as reporters in that time normally wouldn’t ruin a player’s reputation for their own personal benefit, and the invasive media coverage now contributes to how much athletes are looked up to.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when you make more than anyone on your team
and anyone in baseball, that’s what you have to deal with. Jeremy Guthrie makes $450,000 bucks and plays on an small stage. no one cares. when CC Sabathia gets more dough than any pitcher for a team with international popularity, people, more people, expect him to win. This seems pretty obvious to me. Don’t want the attention? Don’t take the dough. Sign with Kansas City.
by brooklynlovesorioles on May 7, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because
He managed to get caught and not come off like a douchebag.
Now, given, A-Rod is going to have to work pretty damn hard to not come off like a douchebag, even while saving nuns from a burning building. He’s just got that image, and it is an image that has been earned. He’s got that personality.
Brian, for whatever flaws he has, does not have an image problem. That is also earned.
They are both talented players who, either out of insecurity or hubris, made a really bad decision surrounding performance enhancing drugs. The fact that A-Rod is getting crucified for it, while Brian is not, is not surprising in the least. Brian is a much easier person to forgive, no matter what team you root for.
"Believe it or not, I read the paper." - Nick Markakis
by 2632 on May 7, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure how A-Rod can be blamed for the interviewer on 60 Minutes giving him softball questions.
Also, there’s a reason A-Rod had that level of pomp and circumstance surrounding him when it came to steroid use: He’s a national star. Outside of Baltimore, you’re not going to find a great deal of interest in Brian Roberts. Again, I don’t think that’s a reason to indict A-Rod.
The lying, well, go nuts. That’s indefensible. I recall times when Roberts said he had never used performance enhancers, but that’s just what I recall, which may be inaccurate. I do know that when he was outed, he made his statement in a contrite fashion, and went on with his life. But, I’m not sure if we should champion him as a fine, upstanding individual because he admitted to steroid use after having been called out for using it. A bit less of a scoundrel, I suppose, but a scoundrel all the same.
…to the degree that anyone can, with a straight face, consider a Major League Baseball player a scoundrel for using performance enhancing drugs in a time when the sport itself had no bylaws governing their usage. Which is to say, I don’t particularly find any fault with what A-Rod or Brian Roberts, or Bonds, or McGwire, or Sosa, or any of the others did. Well, that’s not entirely true. They erred, but the greater error was MLB as an organization for looking the other way. If you let the inmates run the asylum, you cannot act surprised when things get out of control.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on May 7, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me clear this up
A-Rod didn’t get softball questions on 60 minutes. He was asked, point blank, if he did steroids, and he said no. If was after he admitted that he lied, that Peter Gammons has the lamest interview with him of all time.
Baseball seems to have set up a standard. If you did it and you admit it, you are forgiven. If you did it and you lie, you’re not.
Brian Roberts was not walking around considered the GREATEST BASEBALL PLAYER of his era. The higher you go the further you fall. A-Rod built himself up as a natural talent, a hard worker and said, when asked, that he had never taken steroids.
It puts into question all his accomplishmens and everything else he said. No one cares about Roberts becuase he’s not important to baseball. He isn’t going to break records, isn’t headed to the hall of fame. And when pressed, he said he did it.
by brooklynlovesorioles on May 7, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can certainly understand why there would be a distaste for A-Rod particularly because of his great success in the game. I’m not sure to what extent he “built himself as a natural talent” aside from lying when asked, point blank, whether or not he used steroids. And again, I’m fine with anyone who takes umbrage with his decision to do so, but I do not believe A-Rod went out of his way to say “LOOK AT ME, I’M THE ONLY CLEAN GUY IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL AND I’M SO GREAT BECAUSE I AM 100% CLEAN!” Maybe he did that, but I don’t recall that happening.
And, as for him being a hard worker, using steroids and working hard are not mutually exclusive. My understanding is that he did and does work very hard at his craft. I understand that steroids allow you to achieve physical results that one would not otherwise achieve or may strive for longer to achieve, but the work must still be put in to achieve the results.
And again, for me, it’s not like A-Rod, Bonds, Roberts, Palmiero, Tejada, Sosa, Grimsley, or any of the others associated with steroid use are unique cases. I agree, it’s only natural for those higher up the totem to fall farther when they are cut down. However, that does not explain to me why there is such vitriol and hatred towards A-Rod in particular. Is it because he’s not a “good teammate?” I’m not sure how that’s relative to you or I as a fan (i.e. not his teammate). Is it because he’s a good looking fellow? Is it because he’s a Yankee? I just don’t think the vitriol is appropriate.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on May 7, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my bad
I didn’t mean to offend you by disliking over-paid, lying, cheating, baseball players who routinely clobber my favorite baseball team.
by brooklynlovesorioles on May 7, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, here I thought we were engaged in intelligent discourse. You could have just told me upfront that you’re a hater and I could have saved myself the trouble of presenting my point of view.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on May 7, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're kidding, right?
I’m not sure to what extent he "built himself as a natural talent" aside from lying when asked, point blank, whether or not he used steroids. And again, I’m fine with anyone who takes umbrage with his decision to do so, but I do not believe A-Rod went out of his way to say "LOOK AT ME, I’M THE ONLY CLEAN GUY IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL AND I’M SO GREAT BECAUSE I AM 100% CLEAN!" Maybe he did that, but I don’t recall that happening.
A*Rod has built himself as a natural talent for years. AFTER steroids were big news.
lies about it LONG before 60 minutes
attributes work ethic to his mother:
Alex Rodriguez’s sprint to 500 home runs is not just about his incredible talent, it’s about work ethic, too. Rodriguez is not only the most talented player in baseball, he is the game’s hardest worker.
..“In the morning she would go to work as a secretary,” Rodriguez said. “At night she would work as a waitress. There was a reason why she could never come watch me play…..”That’s where I got my work ethic, I took it from her."
“I’ve always placed a priority on staying in shape, eating clean, lifting weights consistently and doing cardio, but Dodd has all but told me that I’ve only scratched the surface of my full potential as an elite athlete,” Rodriguez adds.
There are twofold reasons why there is tons of stuff on the webz about Alex’s work ethic:
1) yes, he does work very hard, and baseball people observe it. But
2) he also talks about it ALL THE TIME. He puts it out there. His agent puts it out there. He works overtime to create an image that he is different, clean, a harder worker.
That, more than anything else, is why you see such a backlash. When you’ve intentionally cultivated a particular image for years, and then are found to have lied through your teeth the entire time, people tend to resent you for it.
It's 4 in the morning. Too much to drink. All the girls look hot. So, the Nationals are Jennifer Lopez to me. —Julian Tavarez
by zknower on May 7, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you’ve intentionally cultivated a particular image for years, and then are found to have lied through your teeth the entire time, people tend to resent you for it.
I think the last thing you’ve said is great. I can completely understand why you would feel that way.
As for the quotes you’ve chosen, I feel there’s nothing wrong with them, even considering them against the point you’ve made.
As far as having a strong work ethic, it’s not as though a person cannot have a strong work ethic while they are on steroids. One must still put the work in to enjoy the results from using steroids. I don’t think anyone would deny that A-Rod has not and does not continue to work hard. As a result, his making a comment about his work ethic, even in light of his steroid use, doesn’t particularly offend me, particularly since the reporter of that piece asked him specifically about work ethic. Which is to say, it’s not as though he called up ESPN, demanded, and received face time to announce to the world that he has a great work ethic.
Now, Boras did that when Alex opted out of his contract, but that’s a whole different kettle of fish.
As for attributing his work ethic to his mother, that seems nice to me. I mean, if it turns out Mama A-Rod was a crack whore, well, then I’d change my tune. But if you can accept his story about his mother at face value (and I understand if you can’t at this point), then I think he was simply trying to speak highly of his mother, something which I feel is almost always a good thing.
As for his “staying in shape, eating clean, lifting weights consistently and doing cardio,” again, I’m certain that these are tenants by which he lives his life. I’m not terribly different in that regard; I focus on those same things. Of course, I don’t get paid millions of dollars to do so, nor do I use steroids to enjoy additional benefits to those I’d see just by hard work alone.
From a competitive standpoint, ignoring for a moment the nature of Baseball at the time when we can say with certainty that A-Rod used steroids, it is unfortunate that he put up the numbers he did and put himself on a path to shatter the records that he has. But while that certainly diminishes the significant of his records, it does not, to me, negate the work that he does to operate on the level that he has to this point in his career. Yes, he used steroids, but he also did (and presumably continues to) work hard by all accounts. Thus, if he’s asked about what sort of fitness regimen he follows, or from where his work ethic is derived, I see no harm in answering those questions.
Still, at best A-Rod was operating under a lie of omission for much of his career, and at worst he lied to a direct question on at least two occasions. On principal, I agree, that is a fairly significant character flaw and one we’d do well to keep in mind going forward. But, bringing back into the equation the state of professional baseball when A-Rod used steroids (the period we know with certainty), then I can’t work myself up into the same lather as others. It’s not as if he was the only exceedingly highly paid player to not only use performance enhancing drugs, but to also approach and in some cases shatter hallowed records of the sport. Nor is he the most unsavory character to do so.
Steroids aren’t taboo to me. When it comes to baseball, and the steroid era, I wash my hands of it. Guys used (and, realistically, continue to use) gear, and that’s the way it was. Harboring resentment towards those individuals seems silly to me at this point. Baseball is, or rather was, a dirty sport by and large.
While he did himself no favors by not immediately coming clean in the wake of the steroid scandal, I just don’t see his lying as being a big deal. He was trying to avoid this very thing, and did so for many years. But really, it boils down to his having cheated in a game filled with other cheaters, so adding a lying to the mix doesn’t lead me to become outraged to any greater degree than it did when anyone else was outed or tested positive for steroids.
Maybe I’m just more jaded than you and, I suppose, the majority of folks. I certainly understand your side of the argument, I just can’t see steroid use in baseball as a reason to resent a player. I think it has more to do with the team he plays for and his personality (or the perception of his personality).
But, you’ve better articulated the why someone may be enraged by A-Rod.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on May 7, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whew.
I am so glad SOMEONE here was able to give Mr. Jones the intellegent discourse he so longed for in these blog comments.
by brooklynlovesorioles on May 7, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aww, that’s sweet.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on May 7, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the latest player that’s the target of Canseco’s pseudo-slanderous steroid chatter is Manny Ramirez, which is a most shocking revelation (although no more shocking than when Canseco accused Alex Rodriguez).
Manny, by the way, laughed off Canseco’s allegations when Streeter followed up on the discussion, stating that, “I got no comment, nothing to say about that. What can I say? I don’t even know the guy.”
In other words: Yes, Canseco has been right before, and plenty of times. Yes, he broke open the steroid scandal. But in this case, it just seems like he’s in the same desperate corner of his, swinging wildly with names in the hopes that another name in a sea full of guilty players manages to stick on the wall and he can score a tiny extension on his 15 minutes in the spotlight.
Link.
I’m not ready to indict Manny, but I find reading old Canseco articles funny after these stories break.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 1:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Canseco is probably my favorite character in this entire steroid saga
He’s a ‘roid user, ego-driven, a money-grubber, spiteful, and as the years go on, he’ s also been shown to be quite honest. Well, at least when it comes to discussing steroids in baseball. Precisely because of his character flaws mainstream baseball, including the writers, have always been quick to dismiss him with ad homenim attacks. I’ll grant that his character makes it easier to dismiss his accusations, but he’s been correct an awful lot. MLB could have saved itself a lot of money by just listening to him instead of financing a Mitchell report that did basically nothing but but assemble already publicly available information.
I find it particularly amusing that Conseco comes across as the breath of fresh air in this entire baseball and steroids saga. It is quite incredible that MLB has twisted this mess to the point where I give Canseco props for being a source of credibility.
by drj on May 7, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His honesty isn't a postive trait, though
His truthfulness has only come out so that he can make as much money as humanly possible.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when manny hit tha dance flo
you know he doin tha stanky legg
by thewaywardO on May 7, 2009 2:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Judging ARod
ARod is judged b/c he is the highest paid player in history. On a different note, why are steriods such a moral issue? They are a medical issue. Have doctors monitor the problem so we don’t end up with dead, sick ballplayers. It’s like having illegal drugs and all the crime it causes in Baltimore – but that’s another discussion. Roids and performance enhancing drugs are a part of the game. Give the problem to the medical community, not senators and witchhunters.
by theotter89 on May 7, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A source close to Manny Ramirez said Thursday that the illegal substance for which the Los Angeles Dodgers slugger tested positive was not "an agent customarily used for performance enhancing."
At least not on the baseball diamond. The source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the substance is supposed to boost sex drive. It is not Viagra, but a substance that treats the cause rather providing a temporary boost in sexual performance, the source said.
Give me a break.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
by birdman on May 7, 2009 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If he’s taking Viagria (or something equivalent), leave the man alone. But ESPN is reporting that he was busted for chorionic gonadotropin, a substance used by roid users after they cycle off. If that’s true, that’s different.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
by birdman on May 7, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if he taking chorionic gonadotropin, I really don’t care because I’m not particularly santimonious when it comes to these things. Not saying I approve either.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
by birdman on May 7, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don't even know what steroids do
It’s just the idea that freaks us, as fans, out.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they make you stronger, we know that.
It’s just a question of whether you see this as a serious offense.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
by birdman on May 7, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don't?
I was under the impression that every scientist and doctor pretty much aggreed that they make you bigger and stronger (whether it’s because they allow you to work out longer without getting tired or because they physically increase muscle size).
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much stronger?
2 feet? 200 feet?
We know you get big musclez, that’s it.
I mean scientists probably know how much it helps, but as fans, I’d venture to say that 99.9% of us don’t have a clue as to what they actually do.
To me, the steroid scandal is just about principles, but even if they do make you substantially stronger, hand-eye coordination + bat speed > overall strength. Getting stronger won’t make your bat quicker per se, and it most certainly doesn’t give you a better batter’s eye.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not just big muscles. Stronger muscles.
If you agree that it makes you stronger and probably dramatically stronger though, everybody who is in minor or major league baseball has incredible hand eye coordination and great bat speed and is pretty good at baseball. So if you combine that with dramatic strength increases it’s going to make a difference. Nobody is arguing that taking steroids could make you or I a great major leaguer, but if it can make an average major leaguer good or a good major leaguer great then it matters.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Willy Mo Pena
Really strong, no eye, bad baseball player. He’s good for a jack every once in a while, but to have true success at the major league level, I believe you need an exceptional batters eye, not the kind that gets you through A+ ball.
To expand on this train of thought, someone like Ichiro can drive the ball with ease not because he is relatively strong, but because his ability to find the sweet spot of the bat is unparalleled.
In general, I buy into the lame quote that baseball is 90% mental.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So just adding strength doesn't do anything per se
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No but adding strength to good hand eye coordination, good batter's eye, good swing, etc does.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, no one’s disagreeign with you. Like I said, it’s just question of how serious of an offense you see this.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
by birdman on May 7, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand what you're saying
My point was just that we don’t know what steroids do, it’s just the idea that we don’t like.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't quite agree though.
Combining increased strength with existing baseball ability obviously makes you better.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 feet? 200 feet?
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
by birdman on May 7, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does it matter?
Even if it’s 2 feet (not that the only impact strength has is on flyballs) it would turn some fly balls into doubles, and some doubles into HRs and some flyballs into Hrs.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It matters if you care about effect sizes. 2 feet is quite different from 200 feet. And to make your statement more precise.
it would turn some maybe 2 percent of fly balls into doubles, and some maybe 4 percent doubles into HRs and some flyballs into Hrs.
Just guessing with the percent obviously.
For 200 feet.
it would turn some maybe 90 percent of fly balls into Hrs.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
by birdman on May 7, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much, though?
I agree that if you add strength to guys who can turns their wrists really well, are already built, and have a good eye, then you’re going to have an improved baseball player, but they were already very, very good to begin with. I’m in agreement that they’ll get better, though.
I don’t know anything about anatomy or any of that shit, but just from being around baseball, trying to strengthen muscle on a guy like Roberts would probably be a detriment to his strength – all around quickness.
The new rage is “quick” muscles, not “big” or “strong” muscles. Obviously you’re trying to combine the three, but if the beneficiaries of steroids are those who were already in the top 1% of their craft anyway, then I wouldn’t say they’re having a huge, widespread impact.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But who cares how much it adds?
Some guys it probably adds a lot more than others.
Also Roberts is really strong as it is and it’s a great help to him.
Also on your last point depending on what you take and how you work out steroids can give you quick/fast muscles as well as strong muscles.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't know enough about steroids to further this conversation
And that was my initial point.
I’m going on hunches and suspicions from knowing baseball very well, but that’s not enough for me to feel confident.
Ultimately, I’m trying to say that steroids seem to only be beneficial if you have the whole package anyway.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Relatively speaking
That’s not true.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No idea what you mean - everybody who's in the major leagues is objectively AWESOME at baseball.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean that in general they all have plus skill sets
But when put into perspective, as in when Cesar Izturis faces Johan Santana, Izturis is nothing special.
If Felix Pie took steroids, would he be a better player? Pie’s worth is maximized when he capitalizes on his speed with the bat and one the bases.
Felix is probably built, but making his muscles “stronger” would not help his trouble seeing the ball and turning his wrists over.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But not every player has the “whole package.” Izturis, for example, can pick it but his hitting skills are terrible and I imagine taking steroids would not help him much.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
by birdman on May 7, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's still awesome at baseball with great hand eye coordination.
If it made him 15% stronger his hitting would undoubtedly be better. Maybe it wouldn’t make him a stud, but it might make him a .260 hitter instead of a .240 hitter.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great hand eye coordination (in regards to hitting), relatively speaking, yes he does when you compare him to the general population. For major leaguer, his hand eye coordination for hitting sucks. And if his hand eye coordination isn’t good enough to make consistent, solid contact, the extra strenth won’t help much. It might help a little though. You speculate it would change him from .240 hitter to a .260 hitter. I would say something like ..240 hitter to a .242 hitter. Who knows though. We’re just guessing.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
by birdman on May 7, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I'm saying
In general, he’s great, but when put in context, you have a different story.
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Different bat
He needed sexual enhancement, apparently. Little Manny wasn’t cooperating.
Viagra’s a proud sponsor of baseball but players can’t use it. That seems weird.
"The substance is not a steroid and it is not human-growth hormone," the source said.
by Dr Orpheus on May 7, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Now i see a Double Standard hypocrisy towards Bud Selig. It seems Bud Selig likes the Yankees more than Red Sox or Dodgers. Why hasnt Bud Selig suspended A-Rod for 60 games? What if MLB found out Adam Jones took steroids will Bud Selig give him a pass too?
by south_florida_oriolesfan on May 7, 2009 2:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well Arod hasn't failed a test during the period where a suspension results.
You can’t just suspend people based on rumor, innuendo, and circumstantial evidence.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well Manny is gonna get the Boot..But A Rod wont.
by south_florida_oriolesfan on May 7, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just like Nothing got done on Barry Bonds issue
by south_florida_oriolesfan on May 7, 2009 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well the Feds seem to proved it
by south_florida_oriolesfan on May 7, 2009 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did they? What has he been found guilty of?
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His Trainer gave it to him lead to where he got it from BALCO. Same story on Roger Clemens too.
by south_florida_oriolesfan on May 7, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manny v. A-Rod
This is my final thought because I have to study for an exam tomorrow.
In the baseball universe Manny and A-Rod are comparable stars. I acknowledge A-Rod is a bigger star, but it isn’t like Manny is some nobody with no fans in a small market.
Unlike A-Rod, Manny has been caught using steroids. Also unlike A-Rod, Manny has publicly engaged in a variety of anti-social behavior over the course of his career.
At the end of the day, I bet Manny will not see as much heat from this as A-Rod receives from whatever it is that he has done. Personally, I find that strange and vaguely troubling.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He's been caught using something on the banned substance list. Not necessarily steroids.
Anti-social behavior???
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A-Rod marketed himself as a clean cut role model. Manny didn't.
It’s an harder fall from grace when you put yourself on a pedastal.
by dkdc on May 7, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actual last thought
THAT’S it?
Manny actually is a bad guy that you would want to keep your sister away from, but since everyone knew that, it’s cool.
A-Rod made himself look all clean cut and it turns out he’s really . . . something or other.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree here at least a little
Manny is, by many accounts, an enormous asshole. Like, the kind of guy who doesn’t walk 20 feet out of his way to a tent full of sick kids brought by the Sox to spring training to meet the players. The kind of guy who chokes and threatens an elderly club employee.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on May 7, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you think they are being treated differently?
My explanation is simplistic, so maybe I’m missing something.
It seems pretty obvious to me that different perceptions about these two before they were outed as cheaters will cause people to react differently to their positive tests.
by dkdc on May 7, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Third final thought
If different perceptions of them before they were outed causes people to react differently then the proper response would be something along the lines of this:
A-Rod said he was Mr. Clean but for reasons I’m not that clear about he is not. Boy, I feel dumb, but I suppose I should be a little less credulous when listening to star athletes.
Manny was an old-man assaulting asshole who got caught cheating. Incredibly enough, I think he’s an even bigger asshole than he was before. Clearly, based on the public information I have available to me, this person is a worse human being than Alex Rodriguez and should be subjected to more public scorn.
Instead, we’ll get something along the lines of “A-Rod is like Hitler II, but that’s just Manny being Manny.”
Why do people think this? Because people are dumb and do dumb shit like elect George W. Bush president twice (sorta). I find it amazing.
by yurizanow on May 7, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goddamn it. Manny Ramirez is one of the guys I’d actually convinced myself just might have been clean the whole time. And how stupid are you to get caught NOW?
by SC on May 7, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well this makes MLB look bad. Cause now the players will just simply play for the Yankees to get a pass from their drug habits. Being on the Yankees is like having Lee F Bailey to defend to get you out of trouble just like the first O.J. case.
by south_florida_oriolesfan on May 7, 2009 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dude. I don't know what you are talking about. You have to fail a test or otherwise get outright caught to get suspended.
Nobody has been suspended retroactively for doing steroids before there was a punishment for it.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The link said Manny to get 50 day suspension. Whats that mean? A suspension means nothing? Thats like a cop gives you a traffic ticket for speeding are you gonna tell the cop “Is this a Joke?”
by south_florida_oriolesfan on May 7, 2009 2:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????
What does this even mean?
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hahahaha
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously do you understand that post at all???
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It means he doesn't play the next 50 games
and he loses 8 million fucking dollars. What the hell else would 50 game suspension mean?
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on May 7, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well Wheres the proof that Marion Jones took steroids that got her medals stripped by the IOC?
by south_florida_oriolesfan on May 7, 2009 3:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who the hell cares???? Is the in MLB???
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHEN SHE WAS CONVICTED OF PERJURY
which is exactly the crux of the earlier argument. She admitted in a court of law to taking PEDs
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on May 7, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what youre saying all these Players are just pure good liars when they go to court? Just like Roger Clemens lied to congress and gets away with it. Let me tell you this, When players in the NFL or in the olympics do this sort of thing THEY GET THE AXE!!! Just ask what Roger Goodell what he would do if T-O got caught doing steroids
by south_florida_oriolesfan on May 7, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hahahahaha man. You're not getting it. If TO got CAUGHT doing steroids then that would not be comparable to Arod's situation.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But I am impressed that you found the "reply" button.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
who is TO?
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
by BPinOK on May 7, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Terrell Owens?
My best game plan is to sit on the bench and call out specific instructions like 'C'mon Boog,' 'Get ahold of one, Frank,' or 'Let's go, Brooks.' -Earl Weaver
by Baltimo on May 7, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure if this is sarcasm, but Terrell Owens.
by O'sFan21 on May 7, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was. Sorry.
our AC is apparently not working and it’s 80+ in the office. I’m spoiled I guess.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
by BPinOK on May 7, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am saying that a suspension or punishment
that is not based on A: A failed test, or B: a conviction in court (which is, remember, what happened to Marion Jones), would be defeated so fast on a legal appeal that it is not worth Bud Selig’s time to attempt to levy it. It would be a joke.
No, I’m not a lawyer, but I understand basic cause and effect, and that seems to put me a leg up here.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on May 7, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't read all these so it may have been addressed
but I heard on the radio about an hour ago that the substance (I forget the name) is something that is used to jump start testosterone after one has finished a cycle.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
by BPinOK on May 7, 2009 3:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
HCG
Human chorionic gonadotropin
by brooklynlovesorioles on May 7, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
usatoday has the story
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/dodgers/2009-05-07-ramirez-suspension_N.htm
by thewaywardO on May 7, 2009 4:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As long as Adam Jones doesn’t get busted, I don’t care about steroid stories.
"Your wife told you to play in New York.
Well, my wife told me you look like a dork." Boo Teixeira guys.
by birdman on May 7, 2009 5:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I guess I'm just glad football is clean
Along with track and field, cycling, etc. If other professional sports were rife with drugs I’m sure they’d also share the same level of critcism being leveled at baseball.
by drj on May 7, 2009 5:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't wait
for someone to fail to detect the sarcasm in that post.
"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008
Adam Jones is the tits.
by KenDixonFanClub on May 7, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno
I’m not exactly a huge Manny fan, but I’m not buying this. I mean, how dumb would you have to be? And, geez, if Manny was going to juice, don’t you think he would have started long ago? We’ll have to wait for a fuller airing of the facts, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he is telling the truth, and this suspension is one of those unintended consequences that tend to come from mechanistic rules.
I say this as a former prosecutor who had to deal with such misguided bits of political theater as mandatory minimum sentencing and plea bargain restrictions that hurt a lot of people, wasted a lot of resources, and at times caused the guilty to go free. Automatic penalties based on a single test result, without any investigation of circumstances, may be necessary to send a message to the players, or they may just be a sop to Congress and the paying public, or a way to bring down an arrogant SOB like Doug Fehr. But they are almost certainly guaranteed to unfairly penalize some proportion of non-cheaters.
by fishoutawata on May 8, 2009 1:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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