SI's Top 100 Players in Baseball
by kba26 on Jul 22, 2009 1:26 PM EDT
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Print[Joe Posnanski's] Top 100 Players
Now I didnt expect to see anyone ranked particularly high and its a pretty terrible list overall, but not one Oriole made the cut. He's clarifies that he's only considering the top 100 players RIGHT NOW [sic], so no Wieters, but i find it hard to believe that Jones, Roberts, and Markakis could all be left off a top 100 players list of any decent baseball writer.
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How the fuck does Adam Dunn make 70
and Adam Jones does not make the list. This writer is fucking stupid.
"I wouldn't root for the Yankees for any amount of money."
-Matt Albers
Joe Posnanski is not fucking stupid
He is brilliant. Besides, it’s just his opinion. And when I read the list I honestly didn’t think any guys on the list would be knocked off of Adam or Nick RIGHT NOW until the last page. I think even Posnanski would agree that once you got down to the bottom of the list a number of guys would make sense there.
I will lead these Peoples to the promised land, also known as "Slightly Ahead of the Blue Jays." ~WietersRunDry
Sorry but...
Johnny Damon on the list over Nick, Adam, and Brian doesn’t make too much sense to me. Did he even consider defense?
by NickMarkaces on Jul 22, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
His list was
if you have to win this season ONLY, that’s all. It’s not about the future. Johnny Damon is currently having arguably the best year of his career. It’s not saying that Johnny Damon is better than Adam or Nick, it’s saying RIGHT NOW if you have to win, who do you take. That’s all.
I find it hard to take offense to such things.
I will lead these Peoples to the promised land, also known as "Slightly Ahead of the Blue Jays." ~WietersRunDry
Then why beltran at 12?
The dude isn’t even healthy and hes the 12th best player right now?
This is one of the worst lists i’ve ever seen, with big names arbitrarily thrown into it.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jul 22, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Beltran is a bit high
But how can a “top 100” list not be arbitrary?
"There's only one cure for what's wrong with all of us pitchers, and that's to take a year off. Then, after you've gone a year without throwing, quit altogether." -Jim Palmer
I fully didnt expect them to be high on the list (> 50)
but to leave all 3 off entirely seemed to be a pretty glaring omission
Pos is brilliant...
…but I have a very hard time seeing how Matt Kemp ends up #37 and Markakis doesn’t make the list.
I’m inclined to think he simply forgot about the Orioles entirely when making the list.
Matt Kemp is awesome
He’s been much better than Nick this year.
I will lead these Peoples to the promised land, also known as "Slightly Ahead of the Blue Jays." ~WietersRunDry
Much better than #37 IMO as well
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jul 22, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions
This year, sure
This year he’s got a 4.8 WAR compared to Nick’s 1.0. But last season, Nick was a 6.2 WAR player and Kemp was a 3.3 WAR player, even while playing a more premium position. I don’t see how you give Kemp that huge a bonus based on this season to date, while discounting Nick and Jones, etc.
Sorry for my outburst of vulgarity.
But I still stand by my comments. I understand that no Oriole should be ranked very high on the list, but I have a hard time believing that NO Oriole should be on the list.
"I wouldn't root for the Yankees for any amount of money."
-Matt Albers
It's becoming a common theme in his React thread
Even fans from other teams are stunned at the omissions of Markakis and Jones. And B-Rob’s getting some love from O’s fans. Did you know he led the league in doubles? Yeah, that got mentioned a few times.
"We're not the other teams' farm system." - Andy MacPhail
My favorite
No O’s. Markakis, Roberts, Jones. One of them should be in the top 75 at least. You dirty ****
johnny2pence
Nottingham , MD
Total Comments (1)
How the fuck does Adam Dunn make 70 and Adam Jones does not make the list. This writer is fucking stupid.
Dunn is a much safer bet because his recent track history is better. Jones projects to have more value but I think Poz made a defensible choice even if I personally disagree.
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
I guess the imaginary team has a DH
I don’t know how Dunn keeps winding up on NL teams.
"On my tombstone just write, THE SOREST LOSER THAT EVER LIVED." -- Earl Weaver
Pablo Sandoval
Is also much better than Nick, Adam, or Brian this year. I get that you want to see some Orioles on the list and I’m not trying to be rude, but have you even seen Matt Kemp or Pablo Sandoval’s stats this year?
I will lead these Peoples to the promised land, also known as "Slightly Ahead of the Blue Jays." ~WietersRunDry
I have, but again..
….the differences aren’t as huge as I think you’re making them out to be. Sandoval’s WAR is 3.1; Roberts is 2.2. And while that’s almost an entire win, Sandoval’s components are still pretty scary, while Roberts has been a consistent 4+ WAR player over the last four seasons at a premium position.
Pos is a numbers guy, and I’m not able to see how his list is justified on the numbers. Either track record matters or it doesn’t. Either potential matters or it doesn’t. I’m sure he’ll offer explanations on his blog, though, so I look forward to that.
If we accept that reasoning then Kung-Fu Panda at 25 is preposterous.
Yeah, it probably is a bit too high given my reasoning IF Poz is indeed giving people more weight given a player’s recent 3 year record (Panda should be down in the 60s or 70s if that’s the case). My larger point is that it’s not unreasonable for Poz to be reluctant to rank someone highly based on a half season’s worth of good performance. That pretty much describes Adam (114 OPS+ this year with not so good defense). Kung-Fu Panda at least has 145 ABs of very strong performance last season (118 OPS+). And Kung Fu Panda is having a terrific season this year. As Stacey said, Kung Fu Panda is killing Adam with the bat (143 OPS+ versus 114 OPS+) this year. So I could see why Poz put him at 25 while leaving off Adam. It’s a defensible choice. Panda at 25 with no Nick or Brian is less defensible.
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
Adam Dunn, not so much
I’d put Nick, Adam, or Brian ahead of him.
I will lead these Peoples to the promised land, also known as "Slightly Ahead of the Blue Jays." ~WietersRunDry
Who has 32 HRs and 80 BBs at the halfway point?
Dunn has 25 HRs and 74 walks through 97 games (81 games is the halfway point). I’m confused.
Ryan Franklin on the list is a joke.
35 good innings and here he comes. What? Tell me if you had to win RIGHT NOW, you’d take that chinbearded 36-year-old mediocrity over Nick or AJ,S?
I don’t even see the need to make this list in the first place.
"The United States is the New York Yankees of countries...powerful and respected until the year 2000." - Homer J. Simpson
I agree with redrummer that Beltran is weird
But in the intro he says that you assume everyone on the list is healthy.
But Ryan Franklin has been good since he got to St. Louis, and he’s been phenomenal this year. And again, it’s if you have to win this year only. I don’t think anybody would want to a 35 year old relief pitcher on a team going forward no matter how good he is right now. But that’s not what the list was.
It’s also possible that I’m defending the article so much because Joe Posnanski is my imaginary sports writer husband, but I do believe what I’m saying.
I will lead these Peoples to the promised land, also known as "Slightly Ahead of the Blue Jays." ~WietersRunDry
If you wanted to win THIS year only
I don’t think Franklin would be in the top 10 relief pitchers that you would take.
fact that adam got snubbed and franklin gutierrez made it is pretty poor. i like most of joe’s articles, this one i’ll just forget.
When based on UZR Gutierrez has been a overall better player. The stats seem to support that.
Both have similar pop in their bats. And Gutierrez’s defense is better as well.
Fangraphs has a much more interesting list
The top 50 players by trade value, which takes performance, age, and contract details into account.
Search around for the detailed articles, ie http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2009-mlb-trade-value-5-1
"On my tombstone just write, THE SOREST LOSER THAT EVER LIVED." -- Earl Weaver
No way to sugar coat this
Poz is a good writer, but this is a terrible list.
I get that he’s doing a list for players who are the best RIGHT now, but he’s overrating some guys who have had fluky good years so far. He doesn’t seem to fully understand positional adjustments, and he’s giving way too much credit to relievers.
He needs to just scrap this list, come up with a coherent way to rank players and go back to the drawing board.
There no Orioles who necessarily deserve to be on that list
Face facts, the O’s are a bottom of the barrel team because they don’t have the caliber of players to do better. They are well within the bottom half in every significant offensive and defensive category. That’s not a co-incidence.
Take a look at our vaunted outfield. Right now none of them would have a chance of starting on the Orioles 1970 World Series team. Maybe some day, but that said there is nothing I’ve seen that guarantees any of them will ever be that good.
Adam Jones, Nick Markakis, etc. are nice young players and some of them might have bright futures, but right now they aren’t enough to make the Orioles an elite team and it we would do well to realize they may never be enough, especially in the AL East.
Hold on there a minute....
Hyperbole can be an effective literary device, but not so much for arguing baseball stats.
Take a look at our vaunted outfield. Right now none of them would have a chance of starting on the Orioles 1970 World Series team.
So I took a look at our vaunted outfield AND the 1970 Orioles. Here’s what I found:
Noland Reimold wouldn’t have started for the ‘70 O’s. BUT, his OPS+ number is above 100, meaning that as a rookie, he’s performing offensively as well as a Major League Baseball outfielder should.
Nick Markakis has a better BA and SLG than 2 of the 3 (Frank had a monster year by 1970 standards) and his OPS was just 3 points under Burford. I’d take Markakis over Buford.
Adam Jones absolutely would have started on those teams. He would have been clearly the 2nd best OF in the bunch, and that’s only because Frank was tearing the cover off the ball as a vet at age 34, while Jones is in his 2nd big league season at age 23. Jones beats Buford and Blair in every offensive category except Buford in OBP, but trails in OPS+ only because of scaling to same-year peers.
To say no one in the 2009 O’s OF would start for the 1970 O’s is well, wrong. Adam Jones would, and I’d take Nick Markakis, too. Of course, he’d have to move to LF… :)
"We're not the other teams' farm system." - Andy MacPhail
*applauds*
And as long as we’re talking hyperbole,
Yeah they’re much better than the guy with 32 home runs and 80 walks at the halfway point.
Dunn has 24 HR and 73 BB. If you’re looking for the actual halfpoint of the season, he had 22 HR and 65 BB. Your point is still well taken, yuri, but if you’re going to use stats, exaggerating them is just sloppy.
"The United States is the New York Yankees of countries...powerful and respected until the year 2000." - Homer J. Simpson
Jones beats Buford and Blair in every offensive category except Buford in OBP, but trails in OPS+ only because of scaling to same-year peers.
That’s, like, the point.
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jul 23, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Try and explain one stat...
Please, share more of your pithy wisdom and sarcasm! More! More!
"We're not the other teams' farm system." - Andy MacPhail
Do you not think
that accounting for era makes OPS+ the most relevant stat you cited, while it is coincidentally the one that disagrees with you? And yet you brush aside its most important feature as if it’s irrelevant. Good response though. High quality.
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jul 23, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Could you respond to what I said?
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jul 23, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Why should I?
You’ll just disagree, disagreeably, while attacking my intelligence, my baseball knowledge, and my team. So no, I won’t respond. I"m done with you.
"We're not the other teams' farm system." - Andy MacPhail
by duck on Jul 23, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Where exactly did I attack you?
I pointed out an incongruity with your argument and you respond in this bizarre manner rather than support what you said. I guess the only conclusion is that you understand now that you were wrong.
by Awesome Mike Awesome on Jul 23, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Why are you here, really?
You have your little championships and your cult-like pink hat loving following. Let us wallow in our own misery for fucks sake.
All he did was mention what OPS+ measures
You guys are so thin skinned. AMA knows that all he has to do is show up and everyone gets in a tizzy. He doesn’t even have to say anything. It’s brilliant.
I will lead these Peoples to the promised land, also known as "Slightly Ahead of the Blue Jays." ~WietersRunDry
That is the first time
I have ever taken the ‘AMA’ bait, and will likely be the last. But I just had to say it, because really, I doubt any of us feel the need to go to Over the Monster and interject.
Take his comments from the thread last week about when the O’s would be competitive again. AMA chimes in with a snide little one-word response of “No”. Is this comment really necessary and warranted? The OPS+ thing was actually rather contributory, but I still don’t want to hear it!
just for the record,
I don’t think AMA frequents OTM. I’ve never seen a comment of his there during Os-Sox series.
June 30, 2009 — Birdland Day
Adam Jones, Nick Markakis, etc. are nice young players and some of them might have bright futures, but right now they aren’t enough to make the Orioles an elite team and it we would do well to realize they may never be enough, especially in the AL East.
Agreed, but you honestly don’t believe Markakis doesn’t deserve to belong among the top 100 players right now (which is what Poz is trying to determine). Like I said above, the omission of Jones and Reimold is defensible because Jones has had exactly two stellar months in the major leagues and Reimold was just called up, but Markakis belongs there before Dunn once you account for defense.
Nick WAR 2008 – 6.2 Dunn WAR 2008 – 1.3
Nick WAR 2007 – 3.8 Dunn WAR 2007 – 2.9
Nick Fielding 2008 = 12.1 Dunn Fielding 2008 = -28 runs (Yikes!)
Nick Fielding 2008 = 2.4 Dunn Fielding 2008 = -18.8 runs
I know you love Adam Dunn and he has a great bat but his value diminishes once you compare him as a whole to other players as the evidence above suggests.
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
agreed
i’m a little confused tho. the list said top 100 RIGHT NOW. i’d argue that RIGHT NOW has nothing to do with the past, meaning that both jones and markakis should be in the top 100. otherwise, yeah. jones shouldn’t make it because he has limited MLB service and only 2 stellar months.
but screw that list. jones and markakis will both be making it on there eventually. plus both of them make the yahoo fantasy baseball big board which is all that matters right? :-)
by twistedlogic on Jul 23, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m a little confused tho. the list said top 100 RIGHT NOW. i’d argue that RIGHT NOW has nothing to do with the past, meaning that both jones and markakis should be in the top 100.
I suppose you could just go with stats from only this year if you’re trying to the best players RIGHT NOW, but I personally wouldn’t go that route because you’ll end up including players having fluky months like Ryan Franklin or Zobrist (or Aaron Small or David Newhan in the past). The last two years seems like a better benchmark.
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
I do love Adam Dunn, other people's dislike of him make me love him even more
I wish we could put together teams made of nine guys with same offensive and same defensive ability as Adam Dunn and nine guys with the same offensive and same defensive ability as Nick Markakis or Adam Jones.
I think the Dunns make a ton of errors, let a ton of balls get away they should’ve gotten, and beat the shit out of the Markakises by a large margin.
Depends on who’s pitching. And even if that’s constant, I think the team of Markakises would win going by WAR.
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
PItching would be a constant
We’ve debated this countless times before, so there’s no point hash it over in any more detail.
I consider it just too counter-intuitive that such an obviously large difference in offensive output as that between Dunn and Markakis can somehow be made up for by defensive ability.
We’ve debated this countless times before, so there’s no point hash it over in any more detail.
I don’t think we’re ever discussed who would win on a team of Dunns vs Markakises with pitching constnat. In any case, do you have any evidence to substantiate your point?
I consider it just too counter-intuitive that such an obviously large difference in offensive output as that between Dunn and Markakis can somehow be made up for by defensive ability.
And that’s what I love about the findings on defense, that’s it’s counterintuitive. Look at this comparison between Manny Ramirez versus Carl Carlford (similar to our Dunn versus Markakis debate) over at fangraphs
choice quote.
Put together, this puts Ramirez at +27.5 runs and Crawford at +25.5 runs. Converted to wins, that is a mere 2.75 to 2.55 advantage for ManRam, and that isn’t even including baserunning metrics such as BP’s equivalent baserunning runs. Now, for a second, imagine if I were to go on air at ESPN and discuss how Crawford in 2009 is almost just as valuable, all told, as Ramirez: can you imagine the type of criticism I would receive? In fact, I expect to get some here as well, even though our fanbase tends to value defense a bit more.
Now of course, Markakis is not quite as good as Crawford with the glove (but Dunn is just as bad as as ManRam), you get the drift, the evidence suggests that once you counter defense, a team of Markakises would fare quite well against a team of Dunns.
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
I like counter-intuitive stuff too
But there comes a point where it I just don’t believe it. I’ve droned on about the guy I’m friends with at Elias who claims his statistical workups show defense ABOVE THE MEAN has no value to a team and that below the mean is easily mitigated by offensive production. He’s my friend and he makes his mortgage payments doing stuff like that for every team in the Major Leagues so I’m prone to believe him. Regardless of that, I can’t believe that a guy in the field who may even go a game or two without even an opportunity to make a play at all can do anything to seriously mitigate his 5 or 6 at bats every game.
According to your measure is Markakis better than ManRam? Better than Jeter? Better than Kevin Youkilis? Those guys all suck defensively. If that is the case, why don’t the Orioles do better with such a remarkable player on their team?
Regardless of that, I can’t believe that a guy in the field who may even go a game or two without even an opportunity to make a play at all can do anything to seriously mitigate his 5 or 6 at bats every game.
Just to be clear, defense is NOT as important as offense. I believe defense is viewed as something like a quarter to half as important as offense when tallying up factors thought to be important towards winning ball games.
According to your measure is Markakis better than ManRam? Better than Jeter? Better than Kevin Youkilis? Those guys all suck defensively.
In terms of Wins Above Replacement, Markakis is quite valuable… almost, but NOT on the same level, on par with Jeter, ManRam (although not in 2008 when ManRam’s insane performance with the Dodgers gave him a fantastic WAR. And Youks is an excellent defender so he doesn’t belong in the same class as Jeter and ManRam), The guys at fangraphs are quite good. You might want to take them as seriously as your friend at Elias.
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
That still doesn't make sense to me
You say that defense is a quarter to a half as important as offense, but it apparently is important enough to make a guy who hits .275/.402/.550 and 25 home runs, and 74 walks less valuable than .298/.352/.473, 12 home runs, and 33 walks.
I’m sorry, I simply will not believe that no matter what the guys at Fangraphics say. That’s too big a gap to overcome.
You say that defense is a quarter to a half as important as offense, but it apparently is important enough to make a guy who hits .275/.402/.550 and 25 home runs, and 74 walks less valuable than .298/.352/.473, 12 home runs, and 33 walks.
It’s really not a huge of difference as you make it out be. Please remember Dunn is something like a minus 25 runs behind the average fielder (and take into account that Markakis is above average fielder although not this year). Dunn is already 30 runs behind the hole if you will if take into account Markakis’ defensive performance before this year (he’s been a plus 12.1, 2.4, and 3 fielder the last few years so let’s just say he’s a +5 fielder). So let’s move onto offense. 25 HRs versus 12 HRs. That’s a 13 run difference in theory (obviously a hitter can’t control the number of baserunners when he hits a HR) which Dunns makes up. .But he’s still 17 runs behind Markakis. 550 OPS versus .473 OPS, that’s a .77 difference in OPS. I have no doubt the former OPS will lead to greater runs but I wouldn’t be surprised it’s NOT big enough to make up the 17 run difference. Free your mind Yuri, and the rest will follow!
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
So defense, which makes up at most half of a player's value . . .
Can make up for 50 points of on-base percentage, 77 points of slugging percentage and double the number of walks and home runs?
Does that make sense to you when you say it out loud? Do you know what it sounds like to me? That sounds like conventional baseball wisdom.
Once again, the O’s have Markakis, Jones (a better player this year), Roberts, and Luke Scott who someone claimed was better than Dunn as well. If they have all those great players why are they so lousy? Why aren’t any teams interested in trading for them? Why don’t columnists like Rob Neyer or Rob Posnanski ever talk about them as great players or even mention them at all (Roberts gets mentioned once in awhile)?
Can make up for 50 points of on-base percentage, 77 points of slugging percentage and double the number of walks and home runs?
Yes it can… I’ve already laid out the thought process and “facts” regarding this issue. If you choose not to believe it, cool, although it would be nice to present some facts and evidence to support your case. Like I said before, I don’t think it’s crazy to think that Dunn’s 17 run hole would be made even, and maybe not even made that, by the .77 OPS difference.
Does that make sense to you when you say it out loud? Do you know what it sounds like to me? That sounds like conventional baseball wisdom.
Yes, it makes sense to me. And I’m not sure what convention baseball wisdom means… but the idea that Carl Crawford is just as valuable as ManRam (or Dunn for that matter) seems to buck it.
If they have all those great players why are they so lousy?
The O’s are lously because 1) our pitching is lousy, 2) our defense isn’t very good, and 3) and our offense isn’t very good even with these players.
Why aren’t any teams interested in trading for them?
Scott attracted a good bit of trade interest but the O’s were asking a lot. * Jones would attract TONS of interest if made available. Roberts would attract a ton of trade interest if not for his ridiculous extension. Markakis’ extension diminishes his trade value a bit, but I imagine a lot of teams would love to trade for him despite the extension.
- ATL wanted Scott before moving onto to McLouth because the later player was cheaper in terms of prospects.
Why don’t columnists like Rob Neyer or Rob Posnanski ever talk about them as great players or even mention them at all (Roberts gets mentioned once in awhile)?
Markakis gets a lot of love SABER types like Neyer and Keith Law for being underrated. Same with Jones. I asked Neyer about Scott’s defense in one of his chats and he said he’s sneaky good according to defensive stats.
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
If that is the case, why don’t the Orioles do better with such a remarkable player on their team?
Because he’s ONE player.
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
But apparently Adam Jones is a player of comparable worth
As is Brian Roberts. Shouldn’t that make a difference? Shouldn’t that put them in a comparable position than a team like, say, the Yankees that has terrible pitching and bad defense?
Our starting pitching has killed us
Once the rotation gets settled with 3E, Guts, Hernandez (dude needs a nickname) and Tillman as 1-4 next week, and Berken and/or Hill get shipped out (I’d say ship Hill, Berken at least has shown flashes of getting it), then we actually have a chance of being decent in August. I’m really liking DD’s move of getting everyone an extra day of rest this week – smart move if he wants 3E pitching in September. Who’s the 5th starter though? I’d say Berken.
"We're not the other teams' farm system." - Andy MacPhail
Nickname for Hernandez?
Let’s see…his initials are D.H.
Designated Hurler?
…Well I’m trying.
"The United States is the New York Yankees of countries...powerful and respected until the year 2000." - Homer J. Simpson
Oddly enough, I kinda like that. Seems to take a while to write though.
"He's a gazelle." -Adam Jones on Nolan Reimold.
Shouldn’t that put them in a comparable position than a team like, say, the Yankees that has terrible pitching and bad defense?
No. We are not comparable to the Yanks pitching wise (O’s – 4.98 team ERA; Yanks – 4.39 team ERA) or hitting wise (O’s run scored – 447 runs; Yanks run scored – 543 runs). Roberts, Jones, and Markakis aren’t enough to put us on the Yank’s level of offensive production. We both have bad defenses though.
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
it we would do well to realize they may never be enough, especially in the AL East.
Um yeah, thanks dude. I’m skeptical of the O’s ever reaching the playoffs in the next five years but fuck man, at least I have some hope instead of resigning myself to rooting for a losing team.
Huff has gone back to being Huff. Deal with it.
I know something about rooting for losing teams
I rooted for the Green Bay Packers in the 1980’s when they were one of the worst teams in the NFL. I didn’t feel any better pretending Lynn Dickey or Don Majkowski were going to take them to a Superbowl. Having unrealistic expectations and over-estimating the ability of players on the team I like does nothing to make me feel better about the teams I follow. To each his own, but that’s just me. I keep paying attention because I like baseball enough that I can get something out of it regardless of how the O’s do.
I think that Adam Jones and Nick Markakis have the ability to be players on a World Series team, but I don’t think they’re going to be the foundation of a championship team unless they both get a lot better.
What are you not buying?
The stats or the argument?
"We're not the other teams' farm system." - Andy MacPhail
The argument about the stats
I too think that OPS+ is the best measure of players between eras when comparing their offensive worth for precisely the reason you stated.
Jones, the best player in the O’s outfield this year. According to your chart he is the peer of 1970 Paul Blair and clearly inferior to Buford and Robinson as is also Nick Markakis this year. Blair was considered the best defensive center fielder in league, which Jones is not.
Jones and Markakis have edges over Blair in raw offensive categories, but those edges look less impressive when the era and the stadium are taken into consideration.
I think the 1970’s O’s have the edge over all of them. You can disagree and I understand why, but it wont’ change my mind.
Without using stats,
because you guys have exhausted every stat that I could think of to throw out there, the game itself has changed tremendously since the 70’s.
Paul Blair was a remarkable CF and likely the best of that time…but there were no Torrie Hunters or Ichiros to compete with. The level of athletic competition today (especially among outfielders) is higher than ever, meaning that Blair would probably not be considered the best if he played now.
I am also willing to bet that the 70’s players had the distinct advantage of facing the same pitcher for the majority of the game. Nick Markakis has the LOOGY problem to deal with, meaning that comfortability in the box has to be harder to achieve now than during the days of the 9-inning starters.
Regardless of the argument, it really isn’t fair to draw comparisons to Frank Robinson either. He is one of the all-time greats, period. I don’t know any Oriole fan, no matter how disillusioned, that would say that any of our current OF’ers can even come close to matching the career of Frank Robinson. Eventually though I do feel that Markakis and Jones could easily surpass the legacy left by Blair and Buford…so long as the club wins.
What a bizarre list, in concept
Why exclude anything resembling previous track record, and yet also exclude anything resembling future performance? It sure seems like his RIGHT NOW standard varied for certain players.
IIRC Baseball Prospectus does some kind of annual list in the summer on SI.com with the Top 50 young players, or something like that. That’s where you should be looking. JoePo’s an alright writer, but he’s not BP.
thats what i thought!
it seemed like the RIGHT NOW thing was only RIGHT NOW when he felt like it.
by twistedlogic on Jul 24, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
It's kinda cool reading all the comments
And people wondering why Jones and Markakis aren’t on the list
You know, you'd think since it's "currently, this year", that pretty much all the All-Stars would be on the list... since, you know, they're supposed to be the best guys in the game.
Uhh, right.
"He's a gazelle." -Adam Jones on Nolan Reimold.
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