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Disappointment of the year = Nick Markakis



Seriously Nick, what happened? I love you as an overall player and person, but come on man, what happened to the bat? WIth the HR tonight, Nick's OPS is at .795. The average OPS for an AL right fielder is.... .797. VORP has you as the 109th best player in the league, behind guys like Juan Uribe, Cody Ross, and Adam Kennedy. Fangraphs said he was worth $28.1 million last year, this year $7.7 million.

I could go on, but geez man, what an overwhelmingly average season. The power is in line, no one should expect more than 20 HRs and 40 doubles out of him. But what caused his walk rate to dip so dramatically? In fact, his BB/PA is at .073, the worst of his career. He took 3.86 pitches per PA last year, this year he is taking 3.85, so its not like hes going up there hacking. 

I realize that O's clean up hitters have hit a pitiful .252/.313/.389 this year, but that doesn't excuse everything. Was on base machine Nick Markakis merely a mirage?

I used to tell myself that I would be pretty content with Nick living a Hideki Matsui type of existence, but after this year, who knows if he even can. Theres still time, maybe he will even finish the season on a tear, but nothing has disappointed me more than Nick this season everything considered.

 

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I totally agree

His OBP has gone down significantly. It seemed that after the all start break he would finish really strong

For all the Orioles' prospect information and scouting, check out

www.oriolesprospects.com

by ravensfan3 on Sep 25, 2009 10:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

not with you on this one

cant argue about the OPS….its definitely taken a tumble in the past couple of weeks but thats not all that matters. he’s got nearly 100 RBIs and over 40 doubles. considering the quality of the bats around and the way the team as a whole has been playing, i cant really call him the disappointment of the year. thats pretty harsh.

by twistedlogic on Sep 25, 2009 10:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

eh

i understand where you’re coming from, I know its not like he sucked or anything. But with the expectations of being a franchise cornerstone, signing a big contract, entering his prime years and such, I expected him to be more than an average hitter. This year has been VERY concerning in my opinion

by UMterp08 on Sep 26, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think a lot of those RBI are a result of BRob and AJ just being in scoring position a lot. But I agree – he’s not even close to the disappointment of the year (Guthrie, Ray, Albers, Johnson, Mora, etc would all rank above him for me).

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

im always iffy with saying his RBI are only cuz he bats near guys that get on base

yup…isnt that the point tho? he’s batting third (or was) behind roberts and AJ so he can knock them in and we win the game.

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh I’m not saying they are only because of that. I’m just saying that 100 RBI is not an indication that he’s having a good year. Joe Carter had lots of 100 RBI seasons and he sucked.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

very true very true

with the o’s tho, anybody who can hit anything is fine with me right now :-P

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol true – it is hard to be TOO disappointed with him considering what else we’ve got

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mora?

Mora was exactly what was expected this year. Anyone who was looking for something more(a) hasn’t been paying attention.

"I think my motivation is to see the other guys in the clubhouse. They’re contending for the playoffs, and when I see that it gets into my body. I play like it’s the playoffs too" —Memlo

by zknower on Sep 27, 2009 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well mora is a SECOND HALF HITTER!!!

so clearly i was expecting lots in the second half. but yea, he really didn’t disappoint me that much. i expected a little bit more, but not enough to warrant the title of disappointment of the year.

by twistedlogic on Sep 27, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You weren't expecting him to hit a single HR on the road?????

Sorry but he’s been WAY worse than I was expecting.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 27, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just saying...

I don’t think winning MVO also qualifies as “disappointment of the year”.

"He's a gazelle." -Adam Jones on Nolan Reimold.

by LenaO on Sep 25, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Neither does it qualify as anything positive.

Nick lost SIXTY POINTS of OBP this year. SIXTY. That’s not good for a guy in his age 25 season. The 40 doubles pale in comparison to the fifty walks he got last year that he DID NOT get this year.

I too am wildly disappointed and disagree totally with his MVO award.

"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008

Adam Jones is the tits.

by KenDixonFanClub on Sep 25, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather he get on base more than he is

in whatever way that is. Besides which, even if we are going by “hit the ball” vs “walk”, his batting average is lower as well. Unless by hit you just mean make contact, in which case yeah I’d rather him walk.

Earl Weaver would’ve kissed Adam Dunn on the mouth in public. - SC 08/11/08

by Stacey on Sep 26, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or, to account better for all things

2008 Runs Created: 139
2009 Runs Created with all those doubles*: 104.5 (108 with the same PA as in ’08)

Yeah. That’s a shit year no matter how you slice it.

*For all that talk, his power numbers are also DOWN from last year. Not holding steady, not rising, not roughly the same place – they are DOWN.

(Runs Created = OBP * SLG * PA)

"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"

by Andrew @ TLC on Sep 26, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me rephrase

It’s not a shit year. It’s a disappointingly average year. If we had 9 Nick Markakises in the lineup, the offense would be golden even with those numbers. And I would probably rank the biggest disappointments as such:

1) Guthrie
2) Huff
3) Everyone in the bullpen except Georgie
4) Uehara
5) Hernandez
6) Markakis

Everyone else, fortunately did more or less what I expected or better: Cesar didn’t hit at all but fielded really, really well, Jones turned it up a little, Berken sucked, Mora sucked, Wieters turned it on slowly but surely, Roberts was great, Reimold and Bergesen and Matusz were thrill-inducing.

"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"

by Andrew @ TLC on Sep 26, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe its that i had low expectations

to be honest, nobody but guthrie disappointed me this year. izzy cant hit but fields well (and was a huge upgrade over fahey), mora sucks, scott is up and down, the bullpen sucks, etc etc. i assumed a lot of this was gonna happen so i guess i never really considered myself disappointed. guthrie, OTOH, did disappoint. i could careless about his poor record, but the 5+ ERA and the HRs were something i didnt expect.

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or hit for more power?

It was conceivable that Nick wouldn’t keep an OBP over .400 but I expected a bit more power and average to offset the drop in OBP.

by DempseysArmy on Oct 1, 2009 8:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know if he's the biggest disappointment

But he has been a disappointment.

Also, he wasn’t named MVO. Some reporter just walked around the clubhouse and asked the players and most of them said Nick.

Earl Weaver would’ve kissed Adam Dunn on the mouth in public. - SC 08/11/08

by Stacey on Sep 26, 2009 12:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ah, my mistake.

That’s what I get for just skimming the article titles.
But still.
While he may not have had the year we’d all hoped for, by no means would I call him this years biggest disappointment. I can name quite a few guys I’d rank higher than him.

"He's a gazelle." -Adam Jones on Nolan Reimold.

by LenaO on Sep 26, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm betting

that a lot of Nick and Adam’s struggles came from some artificial sense that they had to play like the cleanup hitter and be this team’s savior. That is, they pressed because the offense sputtered unexpectedly after two months and lost track of what they were doing to make that front three of Roberts-Jones-Markakis so gosh darn dangerous in May (anyone remember how awesome that was?).

And it probably got worse after Huff was traded. You’ll notice Roberts, the veteran, didn’t press like that – he knows his role regardless of a) where he is batting, and b) who is batting around him, and c) who else is in the lineup.

Quick solution: get a real slugging first baseman from somewhere.

"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"

by Andrew @ TLC on Sep 26, 2009 9:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

agreed

Huff getting traded didn’t help, but when the league found out that Huff wasn’t the same as he was last season, that probably didn’t help either.

What up?

by snakethejake on Sep 26, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if huff was hitting like he was last year.....

well, he still wouldnt be here (and we’d have gotten a lot more for him), but AJ and Nicky would have better numbers IMO.

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nick also hardly got a break this year

Hasn’t he missed 1 game this season? Maybe the O’s should get a clue and give him some rest. That, plus being forced into the cleanup slot as Andrew outlined above, probably contributed to his decline this year.

But Nick will be back. He is 25. This was a rough second half for the team. I don’t think the way he has been at the plate recently is indicative of him overall as a hitter.

by O Nina on Sep 26, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t really buy that him not taking days off had anything to do with it. He just hasn’t had as good of an approach at the plate this year. Hopefully his discipline will return next year.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK

Maybe you’re right, esp since Nick played just about every game last year too. But I still think that if he’s slowing down and getting on base a lot less, a day off or two certainly couldn’t hurt and would probably help.

by O Nina on Sep 26, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

off year

give nick a break he plays for the last place o’s … they play in the AL East against top top top pitching, nick’s gonna do some nice things in baltimore when the teams good. like all of us o’s fans we are ready to find land on this sinking ship. we will one year and i guarantee nick is a big big part of it.
Stay patient oriole fans our time will come

by Riche B on Sep 26, 2009 12:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There were unrealistic expectations for him

I like Nick Markakis a great deal and think he could be a valuable contributor for almost any team, but unlike a lot of Oriole fans, I never thought he was ever going to become one of the best outfielders in the American League. If he played on another unsuccessful team like the Royals or the Reds, none of us would know his name. His current season is disappointing, but it is probably closer to what we should realistically expect from him than what a lot of fans thought he was going to turn into.

I read a magazine article recently about something called the “endowment effect” where the fact that you own something leads you to overvalue it. I think a lot of Oriole fans do that with him. That might be because a lot of younger fans haven’t seen that many players on the Orioles who are a good as Markakis. However, just because he’s one of the best players on a lousy team, that doesn’t mean he’s as good as the best players on good teams.

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 5:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't know about that

He took a step back, and that’s probably to be expected…

…but this is his worst year offensively and defensively ever. And that was not to be expected and certainly is a disappointment. And I think it is because of a perception on HIS part (due perhaps to our perception of him) that he is an elite player when he is not, creating this artificial need to be someone he isn’t, which made him worst, and it’s a vicious cycle and so on.

But still, bottom line: worst year ever.

"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"

by Andrew @ TLC on Sep 26, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

what?

i’m not buying that “worst year defensively” stuff. i don’t know or care what his ygr or whatever rating is, but i’m not on with that assessment.

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How many RFers were better than him last year?

I think the expectations were warranted. Nobody should expect him to hit .340 with 40 hrs or anything, but I don’t see any reason he can’t be one of the best RFers in the game.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Point for O'sFan21

Only one right fielder had a better year than Nick the Stick in 2008: Ryan Ludwick

"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"

by Andrew @ TLC on Sep 26, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And throw in Nicky’s defense/throwing and he’s probably the best in baseball. That year at least.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

According to this, only two

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/11/5/654318/best-right-fielders-of-200

But who cares? If the O’s want to win in the AL East they need those guys who hit .340 with 40 HRs because that’s what elite players do. Markakis is not an elite player. He was never going to be the kind of player to build the offense of a championship team around. He was, at best, going to be the Don Buford of a future Orioles championship team. In that regard, I don’t see the point of getting hung up about his performance this year .

Just because he’s one of the better right fielders doesn’t mean he suddenly becomes as valuable as a big-time hitter at another position. It’s not like a football team with the best guards has some sort of edge over other teams.

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just because they need those guys who hit .340 and 40 HRs

does not mean that Nick Markakis needs to be one of them for him to be an awesome player. If you’re the 2nd best player at your position in the major leagues you are an awesome players. That’s an elite player.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

If you are the second-best catcher before Joe Mauer you are not an elite player. If you are the second-best shortstop before Cal Ripken, you are not an elite player. If you are the second-best right fielder now you are not an elite player.

An awesome player does awesome things like hit .340 and 40 HRs, he is not elite just because he’s relatively better than everyone else at his position.

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What????

So only the best player at each position is elite????

So I guess this year the ONLY awesome player is Pujols…

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

What I mean is that just because you’re the second-best player at a particular position doesn’t mean you’re elite. It doesn’t work that way. You’re elite based on your actual performance, not your performance compared to other guys at your position.

In the 1970’s Dave Concepcion was the best shortstop in baseball . . . and he totally sucked.

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

NO

Jesus no.

An OPS+ of 134 is not elite.

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So if you want to use OPS+...

He had the 9th best number in the AL. is that not elite? Are only the 5 best players in each league elite? The 2 best players in each league????

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

9th best even isn’t elite

He isn’t elite. He will never make an All Star team, he will never be the engine for a first place offense. No one outside of Baltimore is that impressed by him and you wouldn’t care about him if he played on another team.

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

Ok. We’re just going to have to leave it at that if you don’t think being 9th best in the league is elite. I really don’t know how to discuss it going forward if that’s your standard. It’s like debating politics with somebody who doesn’t believe in evolution.

And I would disagree that “no one oustide of baltimore is that impressed by him” since in every analysis of the Orioles ever printed he’s the first guy mentioned when they talk about how the pieces to build around are in place.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maicer Izturis is having a similar year to Nick

"There's only one cure for what's wrong with all of us pitchers, and that's to take a year off. Then, after you've gone a year without throwing, quit altogether." -Jim Palmer

by Baltimo on Sep 26, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

What is that in response to?

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yuri is saying that people outside of Baltimore aren't impressed by him

And I was partially agreeing by noting that a no-name like Maicer Izturis is putting up comparable numbers, but gets overshadowed because he is surrounded by a bunch of good players.

Conversely, Nick has always stood out because of the shit surrounding him.

"There's only one cure for what's wrong with all of us pitchers, and that's to take a year off. Then, after you've gone a year without throwing, quit altogether." -Jim Palmer

by Baltimo on Sep 26, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You mean this year?

Sure – that’s the point he’s having a shit year. But plenty of people outside of BMore noticed him last year when he had the third best OBP in the AL…

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you want to be considered elite

Yet have no power, then you better be in the top five every year in OBP.

Maybe last year was the aberration?

I think we’ll have a better idea by next year as he has had a very good season in 2008, and then followed that up with a very mediocre season.

2006/2007/2009 were very similar, so maybe 2008 was the anomaly?

With another breakout next year, then we can say with more certainty that 2009 was the exception.

"There's only one cure for what's wrong with all of us pitchers, and that's to take a year off. Then, after you've gone a year without throwing, quit altogether." -Jim Palmer

by Baltimo on Sep 26, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree. HIs OPS in 2006 was .797, 2007 with .848, 2008 was .897. That clearly shows a progression and the hundred point drop this year is VERY much a disappointment based not only on last year but on the progressoin he had showed in all 3 years. He was 22 years old when he had the OPS of .797 – why on earth would you expect him to revert back to that when he had 50 point increases the two years after that and solidifying himself in the league?

I mean obviously we have to see if he’s going to revert back to his shittiest and first year in the major leaguers, but I don’t see any consistency between 2006, 2007, and 2009. I see a clear improvement from 2006 to 2007 to 2008 and then a serious drop in 2009.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yea okay

i see what you’re saying, but i always want to note that his OPS has taken a huge hit with his recent slump. also note that there is only 1 other player in lineup currently hitting (brob) and another starting to hit (wieters, although his run started after markakis began to slump)

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Watch any of the presidential debates over the last 8-10 years???

by O'sFan21 on Oct 1, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one outside of Baltimore is that impressed by him and you wouldn’t care about him if he played on another team.

WTF? Do you read baseball websites like ESPN, fangraphs, baseballthinkfactory, hardballtimes, my god Y, people love Nick Markakis.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 26, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's a good season

But the Yankees have four guys with that or better this year alone

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know what I mean

At this point you’re just being deliberately petulant while trying to make a claim that a guy no one will remember in ten years is an elite player.

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow. What a debbie downer you are. “a guy that no one will remember in ten years”???? lol

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yea...fuck that elite shit

i mean, markakis was, in my mind, elite last year. not so much this year, but to be honest, i still think he’s one of the top OFs in the game and will continue to regard him as such.

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not missing the point ...

… but I do think you may have stretched it a bit past it’s breaking point.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Sep 30, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what is this a response to? hard to keep track since everybody stopped talking about it 4 days ago.

by O'sFan21 on Oct 1, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha yea

i tried using the little “up” button but i gave up trying to figure this all out

by twistedlogic on Oct 1, 2009 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also

I don’t really get what your whole point is here, that we shouldn’t be disappointed because he was never that good and was never going to be very good?

That because he’s not an MVP-type player (what you’re describing when you say .340 with 40 hrs – how many of those are there this year???), whether he has a down year doesn’t matter?

And lastly I have no idea what your last point about it not being like football means. If you have the best player at a position that seems like a pretty damn good thing to build around to me. Not sure what you mean.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point is

There were unrealistic expectations placed upon Nick Markakis. A lot of O’s fans thought he would become a superstar, he’s not even likely to ever be an All Star.

I like him as a player and Andrew is right about what the O’s offense would be like if they had 9 guys just like him, but on his own he did not have the potential to be an MVP-type player which is what the O’s will need to compete in their division.

Are you a football fan? If so, how many great teams were built around their guards? It’s not generally regarded an important position, so having the best at it doesn’t really mean anything.

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think anybody ever thought that he was going to be a superstar or an MVP. But the thought that he could be a star was certainly not unwarranted given that he had improved every year and was already one of the best outfielders in the game after 2008. As far as all-star games who gives a shit about that? They are a popularity contest and he plays in Baltimore.

I am a football fan and I don’t think a guard and a RFer are at all comparable.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not likely to be an all-star?

he was good enough to make the all star team this year. i COMPLETELY disagree with that. that said, i dont give a shit about all stars and all that. hes good enough to make the all stars, but all i care is that he’s productive in our lineup and we win games. you dont have to put up .340 and 40 hrs to be productive.

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good football teams build around their O-Line and D-Line

Why do you think the Ravens stay good – they keep those lines in tact. The one down year of the past five, look at the state of the O-Line, and you’ll see why they were 5-11.

Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "

by duck on Sep 26, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think truly knowledgeable football people understand ....

…. that you do in fact build your team around your offensive and defensive line.

You can have the best quarterback in the league and if you can’t protect him or establish a running game or keep the other team from outscoring you and controlling the clock, it doesn’t really matter.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Sep 30, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Truly knowledgeable football people understand . . .

that in a sport with a salary cap you don’t waste a lot of money on centers and guards. You get guys who are good enough at those positions and live with it. The big money on the offensive line goes to the tackles, especially the blind side tackle.

The Ravens are a little different because they pay some decent money to Ben Grubbs and other guys in the middle, but the Steelers and Patriots have been pretty successful without a ton of continuity at the guard position.

by yurizanow on Sep 30, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And how that's working for both those teams THIS year

copared to the Ravens?

Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "

by duck on Oct 1, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha, you showed me!

The teams that have five Superbowls between them in this decade have an inferior record to the Ravens in week 4 of the 2009 season.

I’m sold.

by yurizanow on Oct 1, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well when you point to Grubbs and the other guys they've added to the interior line

Its not really fair to point to titles won before those players got here. The Steelers also had Alan Faneca that whole time, who they paid 1st round money and at least one contract extension to.

by kba26 on Oct 1, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What do you mean "it's not really fair to point to titles won before those player got here?"

Do you think that if the Ravens had Ben Grubbs and company throughout the decade some of those titles would’ve been won by the Ravens. Somehow I doubt that.

The Steelers had Alan Faneca until 2007. They let him go precisely because they didn’t want to pay him big-time money. They’ve won 22 games and the Superbowl in the two years since he left for the Jets, so it seems to have worked out OK for them. The Jets won 12 games during that same span, but no doubt had superlative interior line play.

I’m not saying there isn’t a value in having good guards and I’m not saying it’s OK having crummy guards. I just think that the difference between average and above-average at that position isn’t enough to justify spending a lot of money in a way that isn’t true for positions like quarterback or blind-side tackle.

by yurizanow on Oct 1, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Steelers had Alan Faneca until 2007. They let him go precisely because they didn’t want to pay him big-time money.

The Steelers let him go because they didnt want to pay him big money at 31. He was on the Steelers for 10 seasons, meaning he signed at least one contract after his rookie deal expired. I cant find the details, but I believe it was a near-record deal then too.

Obviously tackles still get paid much more, the Steelers just arent a good example of team that isnt willing to pay interior linemen.

by kba26 on Oct 1, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Arent' a good example

They won the Superbowl in 2005 with Alan Faneca and Kendall Simmons then won it again last year with Chris Kemoeatu and Darnell Stapleton.

That does not look like a team that is willing to pay a lot of money for interior linemen.

by yurizanow on Oct 1, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And to your other point
Do you think that if the Ravens had Ben Grubbs and company throughout the decade some of those titles would’ve been won by the Ravens. Somehow I doubt that.

I’m not saying that, because I dont know. But you dont know either. My point was if you want to evaluate the results of Ravens investing heavily in those interior linemen, you should only look at the teams performance after they were acquired.

by kba26 on Oct 1, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What I do know is that there are at least five Superbowl winners that seemed to treat guards as a fairly fungible commodity. I’m going to give that a lot more weight than the success of the Ravens in the first four weeks of this season. They, in fact, look like they have a great season ahead of them, but I think that has a lot more to do with the guy who plays behind their guards than the guards themselves.

by yurizanow on Oct 1, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you have the best player at a position that seems like a pretty damn good thing to build around to me

A slight regression from 2008 would have been more than good from Nick, but even then, you’re not going to build around a guy who is at his best with an OPS hovering around .860.

If you’re going to argue that Nick should be topping a .900 OPS regularly, then I simply disagree.

"There's only one cure for what's wrong with all of us pitchers, and that's to take a year off. Then, after you've gone a year without throwing, quit altogether." -Jim Palmer

by Baltimo on Sep 26, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well not at his best at .860

But I wouldn’t expect more than an .880ish OPS through Nick’s peak years.

"There's only one cure for what's wrong with all of us pitchers, and that's to take a year off. Then, after you've gone a year without throwing, quit altogether." -Jim Palmer

by Baltimo on Sep 26, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But do you build a team around an .880ish guy?

"There's only one cure for what's wrong with all of us pitchers, and that's to take a year off. Then, after you've gone a year without throwing, quit altogether." -Jim Palmer

by Baltimo on Sep 26, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you developed him and have him locked up for 6 years??? YES

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

there's nothing wrong with .880

plus projections are sorta lame. projections are the reason that some folks here think hes a disappointment. i’m not quite sure where the 30+ hr projections came from anyways. he never displayed THAT much power. he’s just been fairly consistent. i think this case is similar to that of ryan zimmerman. his 07 was okay at best and his season last year wasnt that much better. lots of folks in the nats camp started to change the monster projections they had for him, but he’s catching on now especially with the protection he gets from dunn and willingham. i think markakis will be just fine.

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

if everybody in the lineup hit just like Nicky – 20 homers late .300 OBP, the offense would be golden. Of course, if we’re going to run Cesar Izturis out there in the two-spot, something needs to make up for that…but anyway Markakis’ production is not particularly a concern for me as an Orioles fan, even with the step taken back this year.

"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"

by Andrew @ TLC on Sep 26, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't believe I'm doing this...

but I’ll defend yuri to a degree. We are NOT going to win the AL East if Nick Markakis is our best hitter. We’ve got to have better than Nick in this lineup to be successful. You want guys like Nick in the lineup, but you want a guy or two BETTER than Nick, too. If he’s our best hitter, we’re a .500 team at best.

Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "

by duck on Sep 26, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

All I mean

is if the average production of a batter in our lineup is Nick Markakis, we’re fine. Therefore, he is at worst case an adequate batter. You absolutely won’t find me not screaming at the top of lungs that we need a slugging first baseman to anchor the lineup.

"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"

by Andrew @ TLC on Sep 26, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ehhhh i'm 50-50 on that

i’d love for us to have a better hitter (wieters maybe???) but if we had a couple of guys hitting as well as he is we’d be okay. we’ve lost a lot of games due to the bullpen problems, so i’d like to see us fix that problem and see what happens.

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you high on dope?

Don’t want better hitters than Nick Markakis? What are you afraid you’ll hurt his feelings?

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

are you high on dope?

where in that statement did i say i didn’t want better hitters than nick markakis?

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He was channeling Mr. Hand from Fast Times at Ridgemont HIgh

and doing a bad job of it.

And for teh record, the line is…

“What are you people? On dope?”

Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "

by duck on Sep 28, 2009 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We are NOT going to win the AL East if Nick Markakis is our best hitter.

Which Nick? 2009 or 2008? It’s very possible with a 2008 Nick depending how everybody else hits.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 26, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

obv

you could have albert pujols and a whole bunch of melvin mora’s and not go anywhere. you could have 9 nick markakis’ and you’d be way better off than the former

by twistedlogic on Sep 26, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the O’s want to win in the AL East they need those guys who hit .340 with 40 HRs because that’s what elite players do. Markakis is not an elite player.

You do not need one of these players to win the AL. This is flat out ridiculous. Do you know how many guys in the ML are hitting .340 w/ 40 HRs? Zero. But some team will still win the AL east. As far what constitutes “elite”, you seem to define such a player as one of the top 4-5 players in the entire league. That’s fine. Nick certainly isn’t in that class. He’ll never hit for enough power to be in that league. He could be close though. Nick’s a great player who’s having a down year. He’ll be fine in the long run.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 26, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Elite Players of Years Past

These 9th best in AL OPS+ for the past 10 years. Almost all of these guys are good players who had impressive careers, but I think the only ones we would say were elite are Frank Thomas, Bernie Williams, Carlos Delgado, and maybe Shawn Green. Furthermore, the reason we think so highly of those four particular players is because of better seasons they had in their career. You guys might think that finishing 9th in OPS+ as your career highlight puts a guy in the rank of elite player. I don’t.

I like Nick Markakis. I think there is a place for him on any championship team and would like to see him on an Orioles championship team, but if he’s the best player on the team, I’m not holding my breath unless there are a bunch of other guys exactly like him.

2008: Ian Kinsler (tied with Markakis)
2007: B.J. Upton
2006: Frank Thomas
2005: Brian Roberts
2004: Hidecki Matsui
2003: Dmitri Young
2002: Bernie Williams
2001: Carlos Delgado
2000: Bernie Williams
1999: Shawn Green

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 9:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Dude if you finish in the top 10 consistently you are OBVIOUSLY an elite player. You’re argument is so absurd that you have to be a top 5 player or whatever to be an elite player. The years that ALL of those guys finished in the top 10 they were elite players. Every single one of them.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He is looking at elitism in absolute terms

Not relatively.

"There's only one cure for what's wrong with all of us pitchers, and that's to take a year off. Then, after you've gone a year without throwing, quit altogether." -Jim Palmer

by Baltimo on Sep 26, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nick Markakis (nor most of those other guys) were consistently in the top 10

They had good years and good years are terrific, but (for example) Dmitri Young was never an elite player – the kind of player you could rely on year in and year out to be an offensive catalyst to your team.

by yurizanow on Sep 26, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's his fourth year in the league!

And Dimitri Young abslutely was an elite player that year. In fact he was one of the 10 MOST elite players in the league.

Markakis had showed dramatic improvement in each of his first three years in the league, the 3rd placing him in the top 10 in the league. There was no reason at that point in time not to assume he would continue to be an elite player.

by O'sFan21 on Sep 26, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You’re pretty much talking about HOF players now. As of today, the guys who stay year in and year out in the “top 10” are Pujols, ARod, Utley, Manny, Mauer, … may be a few of others like Beltran and Texiera. Most guys can stay in the top 10 a few years before time or injuries catch up. So if you’re argument is that Nick is not a HOF players, that’s perfectly legit. But who cares? First, it’s not uncommon to find teams in the playoff w/o non-(future) HOF players. Second, this is like when Jim Rice recently said Greinke isn’t in the same class as peak Pedro. Well, considering that peak Pedro was maybe the greatest pitcher of all time, who cares.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 27, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this i agree with

i’m assuming you mean that you can be elite without being a HOF and that i totally agree with. greinke is excellent, but i doubt he’s a HOFer at this point.

by twistedlogic on Sep 27, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I never said Nick Markakis has no place on a successful team

I never said anything bad about him except some of the expectations about him were unrealistic. Face facts Bird, there are people on this web site (perhaps even O’sFan21) who are writing his Hall of Fame plaque. That ain’t going to happen.

I never said he isn’t a valuable player or that he can’t contribute to a championship team. I just said that the Orioles aren’t going to win big if he’s their best hitter.

by yurizanow on Sep 27, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i doubt that anybody is writing his HOF plaque

he’s my favorite player on this team, and i’m not writing his HOF plaque. however, you don’t need to be a HOFer to be elite

by twistedlogic on Sep 27, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I never said Nick Markakis has no place on a successful team

and i never said you said this. you said,

Nick Markakis (nor most of those other guys) were notconsistently in the top 10. They had good years and good years are terrific, but (for example) Dmitri Young was never an elite player – the kind of player you could rely on year in and year out to be an offensive catalyst to your team.

Like I said, I don’t see where you’re going with this. Your definition of elite is so high that it’s not much use. OK, Nick’s not an elite player in the way you define it but you could still build a playoff team around a Markakis type of player. For example, look at the Angels this year. Lots of good hitters, none of them are close to elite given your definition…. well maybe Tori Hunter who’s putting up a Nick Markakis year in CF.

face facts Bird, there are people on this web site (perhaps even O’sFan21) who are writing his Hall of Fame plaque. That ain’t going to happen.

Yeah, those people are crazy. He’s going to need to move over to SS or 2B to reach the HOF. He’s not going to hit for enough power to become a HOF RF. That said, I could see him having a borderline HOF career like Dale Murphy.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 27, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This whole thing started with UMterp08 declaring Nick Markakis the disappointment of the year. I don’t think he disappointed that much because I didn’t think there was a whole lot of room for him to improve talent-wise. I thought that at best he was going to maintain his 2008 level, which was still pretty good.

However, if the O’s want to compete in the AL East they’re going to need a couple of those elite players by my definition. There isn’t some cheap shit way to the playoffs with Nick Markakis and Adam Jones in the heart of the order. Right now Markakis isn’t even a peer with Ken Singleton, whose career OPS+ was 132 and finished in the top ten of that category six times. If he becomes that (and I would love it if he did) then the O’s will have a guy to build a lineup around.

by yurizanow on Sep 27, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

off the top of my head

i cannot name any team with “a couple of those elite players by my definition.” how many teams have multiple albert pujols clones?

by twistedlogic on Sep 27, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Off the top of my head

Pujols’ teammate Matt Holliday has finished in the top ten in OPS+ three times.

On the Yankees A-Rod has nine times, Posada and Teixeira twice, Jeter did 1999 and Matsui did in 2004.

On the Phillies Chase Utley has three times and Ryan Howard has twice.

On the Angels Vladimir Guerrero has seven times and Bobby Abreau three times.

No one has Pujols clones because he’s the best in the world, but there are teams that have multiple top 10 OPS+ hitters.

by yurizanow on Sep 27, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No one has Pujols clones because he’s the best in the world, but there are teams that have multiple top 10 OPS+ hitters.

Well, shizzle, we had that last year too. Roberts and Nick certainly finished in the top 10 OPS+ last year for their respective positions.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 27, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Relative value doesn't add any more runs to the offense

Other teams had multiple top 10 OPS+ regardless of position in the same lineup.

by yurizanow on Sep 27, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, not relative value but absolute value (?). Like I said before, the Rays didn’t have any super star studs on offense (at least as you seem to define it) last year and went to the World Series.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 27, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Top 10 OPS+ for position

means you’re in the top 1/3. That ain’t elite. And that’s if you’re doing by MLB at each position, not just AL. Bexcause then top 10 means you’re not in the bottom 4.

Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "

by duck on Sep 28, 2009 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think he disappointed that much because I didn’t think there was a whole lot of room for him to improve talent-wise.

Even if you don’t believe that there wasn’t much room for improvement, a 100 point drop in OPS (or something close) is a disappointment.

However, if the O’s want to compete in the AL East they’re going to need a couple of those elite players by my definition.

It definitely helps to have those players. But the Rays won the AL East year w/o any Pujols, HOF like players. Who was their best position player last year? Longoria? Pena? Nick had better years than both of them last year OPS+ wise.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 27, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What do you mean by 100 point drop?

Markakis went from an OPS+ of 134 to 103.

The Devil Rays had four guys who were essentially as good as Markakis. I’ve said all along that if the O’s had a bunch of guys just like him, they’d do fine. That isn’t that common.

by yurizanow on Sep 27, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was talking about regular OPS. But a 31 point drop in OPS+ and you’re not disappointed? Because you didn’t have a high opinion of him in the first place?

The Devil Rays had four guys who were essentially as good as Markakis. I’ve said all along that if the O’s had a bunch of guys just like him, they’d do fine. That isn’t that common.

Ok, so you can build a playoff team around a Nick Markakis type of player then!

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 27, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not the most likely or reliable scenario

Look at past Oriole playoff teams. They usually had much better hitters than Markakis.

The four Markakis approach does sometimes work, but it’s not as common and not as easy as the Frank Robinson/Boog Powell/Don Buford or Eddie Murray/Ken Singleton or Eddie Murray/Cal Ripken/Ken Singelton or Raphael Palmeiro/Roberto Alomar/Brady Anderson approach

by yurizanow on Sep 27, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Given how our team is constructed, it’s the most likely scenario. It is the most reliable? That’s a separate question but I sure would like to have a Ryan Howard like slugger on my team.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 27, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shit yeah

I still think Adam Dunn should be our DH.

by yurizanow on Sep 27, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shit yeah

I still think Adam Dunn should be our DH.

by yurizanow on Sep 27, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Me too. As long as you don’t give him a glove, he’s a great player.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 27, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's an option in the AL. :)

Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "

by duck on Sep 28, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

btw

Like the Rays, we could have four Markakis clones (the 2008 version) next year. These four players include: Markakis, Wieters, Jones, and Reimold (admittedly the least likely of the four). Not to mention Luke Scott and B-Rob will hopefully perform well next year. Our offense could be very good next year.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 27, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're engaging in wishful thinking

Only Markakis and Roberts have had OPS+ seasons of 130 or more in their careers and it’s not likely Roberts ever will again.

However, if that happens, no one his happier than me to be wrong in my predictions.

by yurizanow on Sep 27, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only Markakis and Roberts have had OPS+ seasons of 130 or more in their careers and it’s not likely Roberts ever will again.

Actually I said Markakis, Jones, Wieters, and Reimold were our best bets. And then said I was hoping Scott and Roberts would perform well next year. I don’t think all four of the above mentioned players will have a OPS+ above 130 but I think it’s within the realm of being realistic. I think 120 is a much better target and I think Wieters and Jones could take huge leaps next year.

"Well, I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days."

by birdman on Sep 27, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not going to get into an argument about defining elite ...

… as that’s subjective.

But I might be interested in challanging the argument that Baltimore needs a couple of elite players (by your definition) to compete in our division.

Add three players to this squad (all of whom were available for the O’s to draft btw) and I’d argue they would have been competative – David Wright, Zack Greinke, Tim Linecum. With those three, Baltimore really does become one FA bat away from challanging Bos & NY.

hakkaa päälle !

by timg56 on Sep 30, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those are three pretty good players

David Wright is 26 has the potential to be a Hall of Famer. Zack Greinke is the best pitcher in baseball this year had two seasons that are just as good if not better than any season Jeremy Guthrie ever had, and he’s only 25. Tim Linecum is also 25 and has a future that looks just as bright as Greinke’s.

All three of those guys will likely have more impressive careers than Nick Markakis and I think most would agree have good odds of becoming elite players.

by yurizanow on Sep 30, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you fucking kidding me????

When the fuck did I say he was a HOF-er?? Do you have ot be in the HOF to be elite??

by O'sFan21 on Sep 27, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jeez someone is touchy

I merely speculating you might be one of the Camden Chatters who saw Cooperstown in Nick Markakis’ future.

I guess you aren’t.

by yurizanow on Sep 30, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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