Dave Trembley situation
Its one of the the Orioles' most daunting off-season issue. What are they to do with manager Dave Trembley. In my experience viewing this situation, there seem to be three different groups of people when it comes to opinions of the orioles situation with Trembley.
1. There are those who simply can not stand this man anymore. The people in this group blame Trembley for seemingly every loss, and believe that as long as he is manager, this ball-club will never have success.....ever. These people are obviously fed up with losing (who isn't) and will not support Trembley, or Mcphail in any situation so long as Trembley is managing in Baltimore.
2. There are those who believe that Trembley is an acceptable manager for this team, and that he will not win with the lineup, and rotation that the orioles are producing this season. These people are more understanding of what Trembley is going through, and believe that a managerial change will not do any good, because the problems with this team lie within the players, and not the manager. Many of these people believe that with the growth and development of the orioles players, success will come with Trembley as manager.
3. The third group is sort of in the middle. The people in this group respect the job that Trembley has done as manager, and much like the second group, believe that with the growth and development of the oriole's players, the team will have success. The only difference is, these people believe that the orioles need a new face to manage them. Although many of them believe that Trembley has done a decent job managing the O's the past three seasons, they also believe that with the orioles youth movement, they need a change just for the sake of change.
These groups have presented themselves to me on places like Roch Kubatko's orioles blog on masnsports.com and on orioles hangout forums. I obviously know that not everyone fits into one of these "groups" so please dont leave comments saying I DON'T FIT IN ANY OF THESE GROUPS! or THESE GROUPS ARE STUPID, because i am plainly sharing what i have seen and heard from many orioles fans. So if you don't agree with any of these groups, thats fine. Everyone has a right to their own opinion and that's what I'd like to hear from the CC community. I think it would be nice to get some conversation going about this situation and see what the general consensus is among CC members, so get the ball rolling!
PS- I've also attached a poll in which you can rate your opinion of Dave Trembley's performance as orioles manager, so please take part in that.
FanPosts are user-created content and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Camden Chat or SB Nation. They might, though.
2 recs |
58 comments
Comments
Handling players: B+
Handling media: A-
Handling front office: ??
Strategy: C+
I don’t know how much goes on behind the scenes, but some of the pitching decisions lately have left me bewildered, even for Trembley. And OH MY, does he love the hit-and-run, which I detest unless ALL the factors relating to the play—the player on base, the player at the bat, the score of the game, the inning of the game, and the opponent we’re playing—are favorable for it. Diamond Dave seems to be in love with it in all situations. Arggghg.
Then you call 'em in and say, 'It's the consensus among us that we're going to let you go back home.' Some of them cry, some get mad, but none of them will leave until you answer them one question, 'Skipper, what do you think?' And you gotta look every one of those kids in the eye and kick their dreams in the ass and say no. If you say it mean enough, maybe they do themselves a favor and don't waste years learning what you can see in a day. —Earl Weaver
by zknower on Sep 4, 2009 12:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, F is right. And I would give him an A on handling players.
Birdman is too sexy for this website.
by birdman on Sep 4, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ehhhhh he gets a D on strategy...
…simply because we’ve seen even worse. Like Sam Perlozzo.
by Jonny Pops on Sep 9, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I say we keep him for another year
I suppose I fit into group number two, although I don’t necessarily believe that Dave Trembley will find success as a manager when the pieces come together. He might. I’ve said before that I think Trembley can be an above average manager if he just learns how to stay out of his own way. Like zk said above, he handles the players and the press well, but his strategy is questionable. I don’t know that he’ll ever change that, but I think in the meantime his rapport with the young guys goes well with what the team is doing.
I wouldn’t be opposed to him spending some time with Weaver On Strategy in the offseason, that’s for sure.
Earl Weaver would’ve kissed Adam Dunn on the mouth in public. - SC 08/11/08
by Stacey on Sep 4, 2009 8:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the coaching staff needs to change more than DD
The Crow must go. The base coaches clearly need to be replaced. For me, the jury is still out on Trembley, even after all this time. I want to see how he handles a young team when it starts to get good. I like to analogize the 2010 Birds (in a perfect world) to the 2008 Devil Rays in terms of the pieces coming together. So, will DD be Piniella or Maddon to the team when it hits that stage? Let’s allow time to tell, but hopefully MacPhail will have a quick hook if the team is actually a winning roster but DD is short on results.
by punkrawka on Sep 4, 2009 8:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what's wrong with T-Bone?
"All major leaguers can see the ball and hit it. But what separates the great ones is that they can see the ball and hit it were they want to hit it."
by BaltimoreSportsFan on Sep 4, 2009 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have less objection to T-Bone than Samuel
However, I have seen (anecdotally) the O’s having way too high of a pickoff rate at first, and way too many runners getting caught in rundowns from taking wide turns toward 2nd.
by punkrawka on Sep 4, 2009 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Crow
How much of an effect has he had on Pie’s hitting skills? Though I guess he’s pretty bad if he can’t convince Adam Jones to stop swinging at the first pitch, and Matt Wieters to stop flailing away at every pitch. :-p
by NewYorkOriole on Sep 4, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is the matter with CROW?
It seems to me when the players show up his work is seen. I might be missing something however
by col_kl1nk on Sep 4, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah that's what I meant with my comment about Pie...
it seems he’s come a long way, and he credits that to Crowley
by NewYorkOriole on Sep 4, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nicky credited his improvement to crowley as well
Then you call 'em in and say, 'It's the consensus among us that we're going to let you go back home.' Some of them cry, some get mad, but none of them will leave until you answer them one question, 'Skipper, what do you think?' And you gotta look every one of those kids in the eye and kick their dreams in the ass and say no. If you say it mean enough, maybe they do themselves a favor and don't waste years learning what you can see in a day. —Earl Weaver
by zknower on Sep 4, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it could be helluva a lot worse
Since Davey Johnson got fired (resigned?) I think Dave has been the best manager the O’s have had.
He’s very expirenced when dealing with young players. You don’t win multiple MILB Manger of the Year honors for nothing. He will be able to do good with with all of the 20-somethings we are calling up.
"All major leaguers can see the ball and hit it. But what separates the great ones is that they can see the ball and hit it were they want to hit it."
by BaltimoreSportsFan on Sep 4, 2009 8:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i always feel bad raggin on a manager
when the team he’s got to work with is awful. i kinda felt that way when they fired hargrove and mazzilli. i know its the manager’s job to get the team fired up, but i’d hate myself too if i was playing behind rich hill and chris ray and friends.
by twistedlogic on Sep 4, 2009 9:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I had no problem raggin on Perlozzo
He really acted like he didn’t care one bit what was going on anywhere.
"I hate seeing Bedard go, but I think the O's may have gotten the better end of the deal" -- me, 2/8/08
by CoachOfEarl on Sep 5, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention he made half a dozen "What were you THINKING?" moves
in the last half season he was here.
Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "
by duck on Sep 5, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
perlozzo didnt really act like he wanted to manage the team
diamond dave is at least giving it his all. obviously, his all isnt that much, but he doesnt have a whole lot to work with
by twistedlogic on Sep 6, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My issue has always been his replacement
I think Trembley is ok, but when this team is ready to compete they likely need someone more adept at baseball strategy. However, every time someone brings up firing Trembley I’ve asked for suggestions on someone who would be a clear improvement and I can’t recall receiving any. So I’d be fine with replacing him for the right candidate, but at this time I cant get behind firing him just to make a change.
by kba26 on Sep 4, 2009 10:11 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Brad Komminsk
With a year to figure things out before shit should be locked in, why not give one of the system guys a shot. I have no idea if they deserve it, but Gary Allenson did had a pretty sweet mustache back in the day.
by b_duardo on Sep 4, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he's great (moron strategically), but I just hate the revolving door of managers.
I vote for seeing what happens when he actually has a decent roster to work with. When will that be again??
by O'sFan21 on Sep 4, 2009 10:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thos poll results look like a big middle finger
aimed right at Diamond Dave.
You don't EVEN KNOW who O's21girl is!
by Senatorrosewater on Sep 4, 2009 12:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
well actually
its kinda aimed at the “recent fanposts” header
by twistedlogic on Sep 4, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I remember the Brewers fired Ned Yost, I remember hearing chatter that it was the appropriate move because the team had simply outgrown Yost. Yost was brought in because his reputation for player development which fitted the Brewers perfectly since they were bringing up a host of talented young players like Fielder, Hardy, and Weeks. But now that they were winning, the job description changed and they needed someone else. This is how I feel about Trembley. Bring him back next year. But once we start winning, we’ll need another manager.
Birdman is too sexy for this website.
by birdman on Sep 4, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Samuel needs to go.
Samuel’s attitude toward the team to the media should have been a release. That I feel is unprofessional even if true.
Kranny, not so sure. Most of our “pitchers” in the bull pen are coping with injury (torn labrum). Some have flat out not performed as expected.
Dave is a product of his coaches. True he has made some pretty ignorant decisions at coach. One has to wonder about some of the double talk (e.g. I teach fundamentals approach and then says later he’s above that at this level ) he comes up with.
I’d be interested in knowing where we rank with pick offs at first.
by col_kl1nk on Sep 4, 2009 12:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not the windmill!
he’s the reason we get to see wiggy tackle people
by twistedlogic on Sep 4, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was at that game!
"All major leaguers can see the ball and hit it. But what separates the great ones is that they can see the ball and hit it were they want to hit it."
by BaltimoreSportsFan on Sep 5, 2009 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
all groh must go
wait hold on……wrong sport
by twistedlogic on Sep 6, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i fit into the group that says SIGN SOME GUYS WHO CAN PLAY
what group was that again?
by thewaywardO on Sep 4, 2009 7:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We have had this
discussion before, and it always comes back to the point that there just isn’t that many quality FA’s coming available in positions that we need. I agree with you that we need established talent, but where the hell is it coming from?
by sickuvitall on Sep 5, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Winter 2009 Class of FA 1B and 3B
leaves MUCH to be desired. We picked the wrong year to be able to spend money. There’s really no one to spend it on who would make an appreciable difference in our AL East standings.
Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "
by duck on Sep 5, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its not like this is Brewster's Millions
If theres no one worth signing, I have no problem with the front office banking the cash for the large number of expensive contract extensions we’re going to need to make in the next few years
by kba26 on Sep 5, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You and me and half of MLB
The top 3 FA 3B (imho) are Figgins, Beltre, and Crede. Figgins will be showered with offers from many other teams. I wouldn’t mind the other two on cheap 1-2 year contracts, but they’re Borass clients, so that won’t happen. Which leaves guys like Juan Uribe and Nomah. No.
"I hate seeing Bedard go, but I think the O's may have gotten the better end of the deal" -- me, 2/8/08
by CoachOfEarl on Sep 5, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crede would be a wash offensively
and a defensive upgrade. Beltre would probably be the same thing, but he has more potential for offense and offensive testicle jokes.
"I hate seeing Bedard go, but I think the O's may have gotten the better end of the deal" -- me, 2/8/08
by CoachOfEarl on Sep 6, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave Trembley has to go
The Orioles progressively gotten worse every season he’s managed them.
His incompetence as a manager is so well-established that he’’s not even worth the amount of consideration presented in the initial post.
Firing him isn’t even something that should be up for debate and I assume Andy McPhail will take care of things shortly after the season ends.
by yurizanow on Sep 5, 2009 6:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ummm
This is only his 2nd full season managing the team, so I’m not sure what “every season he’s managed them” means.
by O'sFan21 on Sep 5, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's see
The Orioles sucked horribly when he managed them for most of a season. Then the O’s got Trembley for a whole season and their winning percentage was even lower. Now we are on the third year that Dave Trembley has managed a team called the Baltimore Orioles and their winning percentage looks like it’s going to be even lower.
How many consecutive years of this do we have to endure until it is sufficiently established that he doesn’t know what he’s doing. Why do exactly are you sticking up for a guy who obviously isn’t very good at his job?
by yurizanow on Sep 5, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not that I think he’s good at his job (he’s a moron strategically), but I just don’t think the manager makes that much of a difference and having a revolving door in the managers office does not help anything. Until the young pitchers are ready and we get another bat or two, who’s managing is not going to make a difference.
I stand by my comment that the fact that the team has been bad in his 2+ years of management is not really indicative of his quality as a manager. They would have sucked no matter who was managing them. And referring to it as “every year that he’s manager them” is absurd.
by O'sFan21 on Sep 5, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do so many people want to keep this guy around?
Dave Trembley is obviously incompetent. You admit that yourself. Trembley’s teams have played stupid, error-prone, out-producing baseball and he’s shown no particular ability to develop his younger players.
The fact that he doesn’t know what he’s doing has undoubtedly contributed to the Orioles poor performance and I fail to see the absurdity of pointing out that in almost three years of managerial service the Orioles have lost an increasingly higher percentage of their games.
Successful organizations of any sort shouldn’t tolerate putting someone so obviously bad at his job one of their most prominent public faces. It’s embarrassing and sends the wrong message about what kind of performance is acceptable.
Get rid of him.
by yurizanow on Sep 5, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They have lost an increasingly highe percent of their games because they have been getting increasingly younger and shedding their veteran talent (do the names Tejada and Bedard ring any bells????). The manager is NOT the problem. If, as the talent gets better, he continues to flounder then it will be warranted, but the record of the teams that he’s managed thus far is really NO indication of his managerial abilities.
He’s done some stupid shit, but as far as wins and losses goes you can’t win if you don’t have the talent and so far he hasn’t had the talent. Not even close.
And as I already mentioned I’m opposed to the revolving door for managers, so I don’t see the point of bringing in somebody else until the pieces are in place. If they bring somebody else in and the team sucks again next year (which it almost definitely will), then people like you will be complaining about them too.
by O'sFan21 on Sep 5, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do you stick up for the guy?
Contrary to what you might think, I don’t automatically complain about the manager just because the team is losing. For example, I didn’t think Mike Hargrove was the problem when he was manager. I never thought Tom Kelly suddenly became incompetent when the Twins started losing or Joe Torre lost it because the Yankees didn’t win in the playoffs.
I think Dave Trembly is a bad manager because he manages badly. He does the kinds of things that contributes to losses like sacrifice bunts, hit and run plays, and mishandling the pitching staff. I strongly believe that these sorts of decisions on his part have made the Orioles even worse than they otherwise would’ve been, irrespective of the inferiority of their talent. I also think that he hasn’t done a good job of developing the young talent on the Orioles roster.
For all of those reasons, I think he should go and I think it’s bizarre that there are Oriole fans who disagree with me.
by yurizanow on Sep 5, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok...I think that you're not really reading what I'm writing.
Because in now way do I say that he’s a good manager of “stick up for the guy” – I just don’t think that winning percentage is a good indication of his managerial ability and that’s what you kept referencing. I also don’t see how bringing in a new manager before the pieces are in place would accomplish anything – the team will still be bad.
All of the things that you meantion are either impossible to meausre (where he’s done a good job developing talent) or have almost no impact on wins and losses over the course of a season (bunting, hitting and running, handling of the pitchers).
by O'sFan21 on Sep 5, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say the same thing
Do you really think that things like bunting, hit and runs, and mishandling the pitchers don’t have an impact over the course of a season? I don’t think that is a universally accepted belief. To quote Bill James “the difference between winning teams and losing teams . . . is the difference between outs and runners on base.” The strategy adopted by Dave Trembley is one that increases the probability of outs and decreases the probability of runners on base. That’s why I think he’s bad at his job. You think that doesn’t matter, fine. I do.
What I think is strange is it doesn’t seem like you disagree that he’s bad at his job, you just think there is some virtue in managerial continuity. I fail to see any advantage in that.
As for developing young talent. The Orioles supposedly have all this young talent. I haven’t seen much evidence of that young talent improving
by yurizanow on Sep 5, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would absolutely think that they don't have an impact on more than a handful of Ws/Ls over the course of the season.
Since they have studied it and determined just that – the in-game strategic decisions of a manager have very little impact on more than a handful of games over the course of a season. I know people like to make a big deal about a busted hit and run or when DD brings in Chris Ray and he shits the bed, but the reality is that the manager has very little impact on Ws and Ls. Read the stuff the baseball prospectus guys have done on it – very interesting. You think it matters, but you’re not really correct other than on a few games over the course of a year.
Again I think you’re misunderstanding. I don’t think that managerial continuity for the sake of continuity is good – I just see no point in changing managers until the pieces are in place.
As far as developing young talent – I really have no idea what you’re talking about. Wieters is playing well, Reimold is a potential ROY, Matusz’s last two starts have been incredible, and Tillman is pitching not horribly in the major leagues at an absurdly young age. Then throw in the season that AJ had, the incredibly constistent performances that Nicky has every year, and even the recent performance of Felix Pie. Not sure what more you’re expecting…Jason Berken and David Hernendez to be Cy Young award winners???
by O'sFan21 on Sep 5, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with O'sFan21
There is not a manager in the history of the game that would get this team into the playoffs. They simply aren’t good. I don’t think Trembley is all that good either, I just don’t see the point of having a good strategic manager right now. It’s sort of like having a closer when you’re not going to be ahead in the ninth.
by Steve. on Sep 6, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Dave Trembly is a bad manager because he manages badly.
For all of those reasons, I think he should go and I think it’s bizarre that there are Oriole fans who disagree with me.
In terms of managing in game strategy, he’s terrible. In terms of managing and motivating people, he does a fine job. While the team rebuilds, I think Dave works for us. When the team is ready to win, we need to move on.
Birdman is too sexy for this website.
by birdman on Sep 6, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some managers..
are good for managing the earlier stages of a players career, DT is exactly made for this; meaning A-AA-&AAA b-ball, not MLB. I think he has the correct approach but just not the right touch to manage at the highest level. Now I for one would love to see a change, and none to soon for me, but who is going to replace him, I mean who would want this job?? It would be nice to dig up another Earl, or Hank, or Davey, but thats a one in a million shot…. Look at the Craps in DC, they had Manny “the Fanny” Acta, they thought they had the future Larussa, or something, but look how that turned out, fired… So again I would love to see DT get the boot, but whose out there?
by F4PhantomPhreak on Sep 6, 2009 5:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Nats have seen slight improvement since Riggleman came onboard.
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned in this thread, or much in the ongoing DD conversation is one-run games. Winning teams win one-run games. The O’s lose one-run games (Well, we picked up one yesterday).
In general though, it seems to me that one-run games are where managerial skills really show through, and Trembley’s just haven’t for the most part.
You don't EVEN KNOW who O's21girl is!
by Senatorrosewater on Sep 6, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
This year the Orioles are 15-19 in one run games, which is a .441 winning percentage. That’s lower than their first half percentage, before things had gone completely to hell (that was .455) but higher than their overall percentage (.404).
Last year the O’s were 21-29 (.420) in one run games, which was essentially the same as their overall record (.422).
If the measure of a manager is one run games then Dave is a success, or at least not a total failure.
Earl Weaver would’ve kissed Adam Dunn on the mouth in public. - SC 08/11/08
by Stacey on Sep 6, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
when you look at it one when, but when you step back and think about how often we just get shellacked, use up 6 pitchers and lose by 6 runs, it makes those one-run games even more important. At least I think so.
You don't EVEN KNOW who O's21girl is!
by Senatorrosewater on Sep 6, 2009 2:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well I'd say
the problem isn’t one run games, then, it’s the O’s tendency to let things get out of hand once they’ve started. That’s a separate issue. That makes it seem like the most important thing is to not let that happen anymore. I’d say those games have less to do with managerial strategy and more to do with the talent and mental makeup of the players. When a team is getting blown out of the water, the only real thing the manager has control over is bullpen management (which I question with Trembley quite a bit, but I’ve never seen a fan website where the fans didn’t complain about bullpen management regardless of the team).
Earl Weaver would’ve kissed Adam Dunn on the mouth in public. - SC 08/11/08
by Stacey on Sep 6, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep.
You don't EVEN KNOW who O's21girl is!
by Senatorrosewater on Sep 7, 2009 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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