Pondering the Starting Pitching
Going into Spring Training last year the Orioles had two definites in the starting rotation: Jeremy Guthrie and Koji Uehara. The candidates to round out the last four spots included Danys Baez (the overpriced disappointment), Brian Bass (the scrap heaper), Brad Bergesen (the long shot), Mark Hendrickson (the long man), Rich Hill (the reclamation project), Adam Eaton (the awful one), Alfredo Simon (the old one), Hayden Penn (the fallen star), David Pauley (the one I can barely remember), and Chris Waters (Mr. AAA). It was a putrid bunch, out of which the starting five became Guthrie, Uehara, Simon, Hendrickson, and Eaton. Does it make you want to vomit? Because it makes me want to vomit.
Spring Training 2010 (which begins on February 17th, just over a month from now) will have a lot less "suspense." In fact, it seems that the rotation is pretty much set with Kevin Millwood, Jeremy Guthrie, Brad Bergesen, Brian Matusz, and Chris Tillman. It's been speculated that the Orioles would like to add another starting pitcher to the fold, and I continue to advocate for Erik Bedard. One of these fellas is going to get injured or something, and with Erik hopefully ready a few weeks into the season he'd be able to step in for any of them. Then when that pitcher is ready to come back I'm sure Bedard will have pulled his butt muscle or gone all French on us and will need a trip to the DL so they can just swap.
Kevin Millwood - Millwood, as has been discussed ad nauesem, is not a great major league pitcher. He is a mediocre major league pitcher. Hopefully he'll be able to average at least 6 innings/game in 2010 to help keep the bullpen a little fresh. That's certainly been a problem over the past few years and one of the reasons Millwood was brought onto the team. In 2009 he averaged 6.4 IP/G. Over the past three years he's averaged 5.93 IP/G, and for his career he has averaged 6.13 IP/G. All of those are above the Orioles average of 5.42 IP/start in 2009, which was worst in the majors.
Jeremy Guthrie - Guthrie's 2009 was a huge disappointment and while I try to keep the faith, I worry that 2010 will be more of the same. Hopefully with his regular routine in spring instead of the World Baseball Classic Jeremy will have more success. As we all remember, his main trouble was with giving up the home run, as fly ball % shot up to 46.5%, much higher than both his 2008 (38%) and career (40%) totals. Both Bill James and CHONE project him to be better in 2010 than 2009, and honestly I'd be happy with their numbers.
Brad Bergesen - If not for that jerk Billy Butler and his line drive to Bergesen's shin, Baltimore may have had itself the 2009 Rookie of the Year. Bergesen had a hell of a 2009 and I'm excited to see what he can do in 2010. Anyone expecting a 3.43 ERA from Bergesen will probably be disappointed, but I don't see any reason he can't have continued success in the majors. After years of Daniel Cabrera and his merry band of wild pitchers, 3E1N's 2.3 BB/9 made me swoon.
Brian Matusz - Brian Matusz is 23 years old with less than 50 ML innings. He's going to have a few troubles in 2010. Brian Matusz is 23 years old with less than 50 ML innings. He's going to have a few troubles in 2010. Brian Matusz is 23 years old with less than 50 ML innings. He's going to have a few troubles in 2010. Brian Matusz is 23 years old with less than 50 ML innings. He's going to have a few troubles in 2010. Brian Matusz is 23 years old with less than 50 ML innings. He's going to have a few troubles in 2010.
I have to keep repeating that to myself otherwise the joy I feel over Brian Matusz might actually cause my head to explode. All I can think of when I think of Matusz is his domination of the New York Yankees in Yankee Stadium last September and the few starts leading up to it when we could see him lock in to being a major league pitcher. I am so, so excited about Brian Matusz.
Chris Tillman - If any of these pitchers isn't in the starting rotation on Opening Day for a reason other than injury, it'll be Tillman. I have no idea what to expect from him in 2010. Given that on Opening Day 2010 he'll still be just 21 years old (turning 22 on April 15th) I want to have patience with him. I will have patience with him. But I'm just so excited about the entire thing that it's hard not to be disappointed with his issues. He has got to learn to do something more with his fastball or the major league hitters will continue to tee off on it and it won't matter how amazing his breaking stuff is.
Needless to say, the Orioles success in 2010 will be largely dependent upon their starting pitching. I honestly have no idea what to expect, but I do know that I'm more excited for it than I have been for Orioles pitching in a long, long time.
Just for fun (since I put hardly any stock in them, especially a W-L record, how on earth do you predict that?), here are Bill James and CHONE projections for that starting rotation. It's just a few of the stats they project, but you can see the rest on each players's page on FanGraphs. Hell, I threw Bedard in there too, although I should probably stop getting myself all hopped up on the idea of him returning to Baltimore in 2010 before it happens.
| Millwood | Guthrie | Bergesen | Matusz | Tillman | Bedard |
|||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bill James |
CHONE |
Bill James |
CHONE |
Bill James |
CHONE |
Bill James |
CHONE |
Bill James |
CHONE |
Bill James |
CHONE |
|
| GS |
29 |
30 |
33 |
30 |
27 |
24 |
N/A |
18 |
22 |
29 |
15 |
18 |
| IP |
175 |
178 |
216 |
184 |
168 |
141 |
100 |
123 |
144 |
88 |
105 |
|
| ERA |
4.37 |
4.75 |
4.38 |
4.60 |
4.18 |
4.72 |
4.59 |
4.90 |
5.00 |
3.58 |
3.69 |
|
| FIP |
4.13 |
4.59 |
4.26 |
4.76 |
4.26 |
4.76 |
4.39 |
4.50 |
5.08 |
3.60 |
3.58 |
|
| WHIP |
1.40 |
1.46 |
1.37 |
1.36 |
1.32 |
1.42 |
1.40 |
1.43 |
1.49 |
1.28 |
1.27 |
|
| K/9 |
6.48 |
5.66 |
5.71 |
5.23 |
4.55 |
4.66 |
7.2 |
8.49 |
6.81 |
8.90 |
9.60 |
|
| BB/9 |
2.83 |
3.24 |
3.04 |
2.79 |
2.09 |
2.74 |
3.42 |
3.66 |
3.94 |
3.58 |
3.43 |
|
| HR/9 |
0.98 |
1.06 |
1.21 |
1.37 |
0.80 |
1.15 |
1.17 |
1.10 |
1.44 |
0.82 |
0.94 |
|
| K/BB |
2.29 |
1.75 |
1.88 |
1.88 |
2.18 |
1.70 |
2.11 |
2.32 |
1.73 |
2.49 |
2.80 |
|
Using the CHONE projections (since Bill James rudely didn't project Brian Matusz), you get the following combined numbers:
44-51, 149 GS, 852 IP (5.72 IP/GS), 4.61 ERA, 88 HR, 593 K, 293 BB (2.02 K/BB)
Guthrie, Bergesen, Hill, Tillman, Uehara, Hendrickson, Matusz, Jason Berken, and David Hernandez combined for 151 starts in 2009. Their numbers in those starts were:
41-63, 151 GS, 828 IP (5.48 IP/GS), 5.18 ERA, 139 HR, 504 K, 290 BB (1.74 K/BB)
So if CHONE is anywhere near on target (and the O's swoop in on Bedard) the pitching staff will be quite a bit better in 2010. Not great, but better. I'll take better. Baby steps, right? Oh, and also in 2009 the Orioles got 8 starts from Adam Eaton, 2 from Alfredo Simon, and 1 from Chris Waters. I left them out so that the number of starts would be roughly the same. Imagine how much worse the 2009 numbers would look if I'd swapped Matusz's 8 starts with Eaton's?
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47 comments
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Comments
Did you know?
Brad Bergesen’s ERA in his first 10 starts was 4.04 and in his last 9 starts his ERA was 2.80. The reason that stat impresses me is how much he improved DURING the season. He made deeper starts as the season went on. I know a lot of people see his future ERA around 4.30-4.50 but I could see him around 3.80 in peak season.
Did you know?
That Brad Bergesen’s ERA before Matt Wieters was 5.49 and after Matt Wieters was 2.46? Coincidence? Divine intervention? You be the judge.
5 starters all with WHIPs under 1.5?
I’ll take that in a New York minute. You tell me the last time the Orioles had that.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
I'm going with "a month of Sundays" as the answer.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
I really thought the answer was gonna be 1997
It was looking good until Rick Krivda and Shawn Boskie messed everything up, but Mussina, Erickson, Kameineicki, and Key were all under 1.5. Not that the pitching especially remarkable in 1997, but 1.5 isn’t that great.
1991 was also close if it wasn’t for that blasted Bob Milacki.
The actual answer is 1986.
Mike Boddicker 1.319
Ken Dixon 1.369
Scott McGregor 1.345
Mike Flanagan 1.424
Storm Davis 1.396
The 1986 Baltimore Orioles won 73 games. Woo!!
1) who the hell is ken dixon? we’re pretty much in 4-man rotations in 1986, aren’t we?
2) i guess the correct answer was “5 months plus one week of Sundays”
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
Hell if I know, but he made 33 starts in 1986.
I was 7 years old in 1986. I will say that there’s a dude on here who’s screen name is KenDixonFanClub.
per wikipedia
Ken Dixon played only 4 seasons in MLB. Was traded to Seattle for Phil Bradley.
*pretty sure I had his ’87 Topps
by 7Swords of Salat on Jan 12, 2010 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
Ken Dixon Quiz
a) car dealer in southern Maryland?
b) soft-core porn / bloodbath director
c) Canadian lacrosse legend?
d) Jennifer Beals’ husband?
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.
May I have the envelope please?
As the Certs ad used to put it: “You’re both right!” Indeed, all 4 answers are correct, as there is a Ken Dixon who fits each description. But none of ’em pitched for us…
I hope CC’s own KDFanClub guy can fill us in as to the our Ken’s current whereabouts.
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.
And try to imagine this: This ad was on — and on and on — before remote control was invented.
The horror, the horror…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8zwnXjIjPM
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.
“captures all the fresh, clean flavor of a mountain stream”
ummm, a mountain stream tastes like mud and trout. i don’t really want that on my breath when i’m cruisin’ for the ladies….
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
My big issue
because I’m still on irrational mode in wanting Bedard back two days ago is that what happens if he’s ready and nobody is hurt?
What if Millwood and Guthrie are putting 4.90s and Bergesen and Matusz are doing ok, but Chris Tillman is the odd guy out with a 5.50 ERA? Do we throw our future in Chris Tillman, a kid who more than anything needs time in the big leagues, back to the minors or to the bullpen where he won’t get nearly as much experience (let alone the problem of the extra stress shifting a young pitcher to the bullpen for a season after he started the season starting).
So, that nightmare scenario is bothersome, and I don’t think you add extra guys with the plan of someone getting hurt…but overall I’m very bullish on our kids. A staff ERA under 5 is certainly within range and seems a solid enough goal.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
I don't think you add extra guys with the plan of someone getting hurt
But someone always gets hurt and you have to have some guys.
I don’t know, though. I don’t know what you do. Maybe hire someone to bash in Kevin Millwood’s knee?
Six-man rotation?
Not especially likely that early in the season, but why not? Matusz, Tillman, and Bergesen are all going to have their innings watched carefully, and I can’t see Guts or Millwood suddenly being traded if we’re talking before the All-Star break (because then somebody will get injured and we’ll have to throw in Arrieta before we want to, or Berken, or something).
I guess the main issue would be the roster spot, which is not insignificant.
Weaver's Fourth Law: Your most precious possessions on offense are your twenty-seven outs.
I’m still on irrational mode in wanting Bedard back two days ago is that what happens if he’s ready and nobody is hurt?
somebody gets traded or sent to the pen temporarily while a trade is worked out.
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?
Man in Black: Yes.
Vizzini: Morons.
depending on how he pitches
there might be some fans willing to do it for free
by 7Swords of Salat on Jan 14, 2010 7:28 AM EST up reply actions
why does everyone assume bedard will be effective? IF we even sign him?
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
I don't necessarily assume that
But I’m choosing to believe it until I see otherwise, because I just heart that surly Canadian.
past performance?
his seatle numbers are pretty good.
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on Jan 13, 2010 7:03 AM EST up reply actions
yeah but he got the fabrum bear
and just had surgery in the off-season. Hard to say if he’ll completely return to form.
nobody ever completely returns to form after a fabrum bear
best we can hope in the first few months would be league average or a little better.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
He's going to sign very cheaply
If he’s not effective, what’s the downside? A couple million?
The problem I have with Bedard is that from what I’ve read is that he MIGHT be ready before the ASB. With Bedard, I think the optomistic time is the ASB, if we pick up a spare arm I would rather get someone who can pitch most of the first half.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 13, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Having more guys than rotation spots would be a great problem to have, although I seriously doubt it’ll be an issue. If nothing goes wrong, then sure we’ll have 6 guys that we want in the rotation; and you just send either Matusz/TIllman to the pen or AAA.
And something always go wrong, so that’s not going to be a problem.
"Hey Yankees... you can take your apology and your trophy and shove 'em straight up your ass!" --Tanner Boyle
by BirdFanInPhilly on Jan 13, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
If a pitcher is still working on developing pitches, then it should not matter ....
… if he’s doing it at AAA or in the bigs, or if it is as a starter or long reliever.
Also, I think the psychological impact of being moved to the pen is overblown. If Tillman knows the reasoning behind it, where is the impact?
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
The impact on moving to the pen
is very much not alone psychological. It’s a totally different experience. You train differently, you warm up differently, you pitch differently. Not saying that it will negatively impact him, but just pointing out that it is entirely different and having somebody do something entirely different very well could impact them in a number of ways (injuries, decrease in effectiveness, temporary effectiveness as a reliever and then struggles to relearn how to be a starter, etc).
Let's say
that Bedard comes back and it’s too early in the season to trade Millwood or Guthrie, and of the three other dudes, Tillman is the one struggling the most. By my count, here are the prominent facts:
1) Tillman doesn’t have anything left to prove in AAA. He is too good for that level.
2) At some point, Tillman is going to struggle in the major leagues.
I’ve said all along that the absolute key for the year (a year in which the Orioles may or may not get to .500, but will not compete, or even pretend to compete) is letting the pitching develop. That has to Goal #1 for the team. And that means leaving Tillman, Matusz, and Bergesen in there, starting for the Orioles, as long as possible.
Removing Tillman (or Matusz, or Bergesen, or Arrieta) from the rotation in favor of Erik Bedard does not serve that purpose. It serves Goal #3 (or so): win as many games as possible. So instead, you are counting on one of our pitchers getting hurt by the time Bedard (if they do indeed add him) is ready to pitch…and while that seems quite wise (pitchers do often get hurt), it leaves the Orioles relying on bad luck.
And I’m just uncomfortable with that.
"I like baseball, movies, good clothes, whiskey, fast cars ... and you. What else you need to know?"
One measure of our recent rotation(s) is that we can be legitimately excited now about a prospective 5-man that comes in at Not Crappy
That’s right, division rivals, we’re talkin’ High-End Mediocre here. You’ve been warned…
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.
Expectations can get out of hand
3E Brad Bergesen- If he can stay healthy not miss any starts and end up with 175 IP and and E.R.A. below 4.50 then his season is a monster success.
Brian Matusz, Chris Tillman- These two are going to get knocked around a lot and look really good in other games. It’s just part of maturation process. Don’t sweat the tough games. Good Health, learning how to make adjustments and handling a MLB season are what’s really needed from them. Don’t doubt that they will have tough stretches. Other than that lets hope that in september they get shut down again. If that happens you will know handled their workload well. If not you will know they stumbled far to often during the season.
Jeremy Gurthie / Kevin Millwood- If both these guys can keep HR totals down and get close to 200 IP then they did all that you could ask of them. My guess is that Guts (Jeremy Guthrie) took a hard look at his troubled starts versus the really good ones he had in August and tries a fresh approach to this new season and is much closer to what we hoped he would be, As for Mr Millwood, keeping the Bullpen fresh and not forcing the front office to call up less than stellar talent to serve as starters for extended lengths.
DavidHernandez / Jason Berken- Don’t forget these two. They both logged way too many innings last year and weren’t ready. However they both could make spot starts and enjoy some success. The last two months have made people forget just how competive Mr Hernandez was up until the end of July. His E.R.A. was sub 4.00 prior to that.
As for pitching… The main thing is that the rotation never becomes so futile as it did in 2009.
"Just like an a**hole! Everyone has one and it's usually full of *hit!!!!" -Warren Sapp
"People have been listening to Jim Palmer talk since before I was born because he is right. Sit down, shut up and listen to what he has to say."- I said it so bite me.
Lumping Hernandez and Berken together
just isn’t fair. David has the potential to stick, even if in the bullpen. Berken…not so much.
by sickuvitall on Jan 13, 2010 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Perhaps
but by the end of last year I was so sick of both of them that they almost seemed like one person.
David Hernandez gave up 27 HR in 100 innings for crying out loud. Yeah maybe he has potential but it got uglier each time he pitched last year.
i agree with you on guthrie
i think he’s definitely gonna bounce back. he’s a smart guy, and he’s had all offseason to analyze what went wrong and work on it.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
Brad 3E
I’ve said it before on here. I have so much faith in this guy. I think he will be a career overachiever relative to what most are predicting of him. As competitive and workman-like as he seemed to be, I can’t imagine this guy not constantly be working for ways to improve himself. From what I can see, as long as he stays as fired up as he was last season he will overachieve. Well, this is what I keep telling myself anyway.
As competitive and workman-like as he seemed to be,
That’s what they said about Bri-Bob when he came up. Now he’s a big lollygagger.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
yes...
doubles machine and all those stolen bases. self-righteous lolly gagger. But in contrast, I never saw B-Rob pace up and down the dugout, slam equipment, and throw fits after an inning he wasn’t satisfied with (not even necessarily a bad inning). But I have seen 3E do that. And I like it!

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