Guthrie Going Forward- What to Expect from Jeremy Guthrie in 2010
Well I've been holding onto to this for a while, adding small things but considering Stacey's story on the Os pitching next year I decided to finish this up
Jeremy Guthrie had a horrible year in 2009. The only good thing that can be said is that he pitched 200 innings. However the two years before that he was an above-average pitcher at the MLB level. The obvious stipulation was that his FIP (fielding independent pitching or basically era with defense factored out) were over half a run higher than his ERA in both 2007 and 2008. Some sites were pointing at Guthrie regressing based just on the difference between FIP and ERA although that does not seem to have been the primary reason.
via vivalavidro.files.wordpress.com
So what exactly happened and what can we expect looking forward?
One of the most interesting things about Guthrie is just how much he changed as a pitcher. Using the same stuff he changed from a balanced groundball-flyball pitcher (approximately 42-44% groundballs to 38% flyball) to an extreme flyball pitcher. His flyball rate became 46.5% compared to his ~38% norm while his groundball ratio decreased dramatically to 34.7%
There were theories abounding about whether his lack of a true spring training affected his pitching, similar to Verlander's 2008. For those who don't remember Guthrie was invited to pitch for the American WBC team. However, he was used infrequently and so never had the chance to get into shape for the season.
What's unusual is that with his new flyball tendencies his BABIP (batted balls in play) increased to close to .300 whereas flyball pitchers typically have low BABIPs. As a flyball pitcher he was unlucky with a high BABIP (for him). However his previous two seasons Guthrie had a decidedly below-average BABIP so regression was expected. The previous two years his BABIP was .277 and .267 respectively both dramatically below-average. This could just be his BABIP regressing towards the mean.
To me he reminds me of John Lannan of the Nationals. Both players outperformed their fielding-independent stats fairly dramatically due to a lower than expected BABIP. Nick Steiner wrote two articles trying to explore how Lannan had managed to pitch two years with such a low BABIP especially for a bad defensive team. In it he acknowledged that some pitchers have lower than expected BABIPs like Johan Santana. Nick Steiner tried to figure out how Lannan was lowering his BABIP for two years in parts 1 and 2 but couldn't find a relationship. I suspect that Guthrie may have a similar pitching ability when he is pitching like he was from 2007-2008 and not being the extreme flyball pitcher he was in 2009.
Probably the biggest problem for Guthrie this year was his homers. While Guthrie became a flyball pitcher, his homeruns per a flyball stayed static even though he was inducing many more flyballs. This should have decreased somewhat as a flyball pitcher. So I decided to check out hittrackeronline.com to get a closer look. Eight of his thirty-five homeruns allowed were labeled just enough. These are somewhat lucky homeruns which means that Guthrie probably suffered from some bad luck with his homeruns. We could reasonable expect Guthrie's homeruns to decrease next year. For more information on Guthrie's homeruns allowed click here.
One of the questions that needs to be asked is whether Guthrie will stay a flyball pitcher or revert back to the pitcher he was before. As a flyball pitcher in Camden Yards and in the AL East Guthrie gave up more than his fair share of homeruns. The one benefit he has as a flyball pitcher is that he has a strong outfield defense behind him (minus Reimold although he should improve when not playing on an Achilles injury all season long) The past three years the Orioles have beenslightly below-average with two below average seasons and their only positive average being from 2008 according to fangraphs UZR. Defense does not seem to be a true reason for Guthrie's low BABIP
If Guthrie reverts to being his normal self I suspect that his era will be higher than 2007-2008 probably right around 4.00. He should be a net positive as a mid-rotation starter. If he remains an extreme flyball pitcher it could be nasty with him posting a similar year although possibly mitigated somewhat by our outfield defense. I personally believe he will revert to being the pitcher of yore although he may give up slightly more flyballs than he used to.
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Great stuff
I hold hope that Guthrie will get back to form in 2010. The luck factor you mentioned a couple times gives me even more hope.
I love that hit tracker site.
I see Jeremy Guthrie
falling somewhere in between his underachieving numbers from last year and his overachieving numbers from 07 and 08. Maybe 12-10, 4.25 ERA, around 200 IP.
Serviceable is all we really can expect at this point, but a return to his earlier form would be wonderful. By the end of the year (if all goes well with the youngstaz), he could be near the back end of the rotation and possibly out of it altogether by 2011.
Psychology has been mentioned here as a key to his (prospective) turnaround. But y'know...
I’m beginning to hope that he doesn’t overanalyze his ‘09 problems. I remember Palmer commenting before one mid-season start that he’d been talking with JG, who was a very cerebral pitcher and had been busy analyzing his season’s shortcomings as hard as he could for some weeks now. Well, he didn’t exactly Figure It All Out shortly thereafter, did he?
Guts was clearly far more effective when he was just an underpaid guy who rode his bike to the park, pitched every 5th day and somehow remained upbeat when his teammates screwed up behind him again and again and again. Maybe what he really needs most is to relax…and see what spontaneity brings out.
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.
OK, either that or find a nice Mormon girl and, y’know, let things get all spontaneous that way. Just sayin’.
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.
+2, lol
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.
ooh, another good one!
"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.
I'm concerned about...
…a similar dropoff from Bergesen, given his lack of great ‘stuff’. I agree with Matusz…bring in Bedard.
Well if they do bring in Bédard...
Will he be ready to pitch by Opening Day? Probably not. I’m pretty sure that he would have already gotten some serious offers if he were healthy enough to pitch by Opening Day.
And who gets knocked out of the rotation when Bédard starts pitching? It certainly won’t be Millwood or Guthrie, and Bergeson’s rookie campaign has all but guaranteed him as a lock for a rotation spot. So that means that either Matusz or Tillman will see fewer major league innings because one of them will be subjugated by Bédard. In addition, Arrieta will be less likely to see any big league action. Remember, this season isn’t about winning – it’s about getting the young guys the experience that they need to develop into competitive, skilled players for 2011, 2012, ect.
While I believe that surplus pitching is a great thing, there is a point when it can become too crowded on the depth chart. Unless AM plans to shop the veteran pitchers at the trade deadline, I just don’t see Bédard fitting into the team’s plan.
Bedard won't be ready by opening day
more likely midseason or late in the season
by OsandRoyals on Jan 21, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Having too many starting pitchers is a problem I'd like to have
Look at how many starting pitchers Boston had going into last year and they still ended up thin.
Also, kudos for adding the accent to Bedard’s name.
I will lead these Peoples to the promised land, also known as "Slightly Ahead of the Blue Jays." ~WietersRunDry
While I agree that it would be nice to have too much starting pitching,
I keep thinking about a situation where the O’s sign Bédard, leaving Tillman – who is projected as our future #1, mind you – to pitch the first half of season knowing that, regardless of his performance, he will be demoted to AAA as soon as Bédard is healthy enough to pitch. I mean, that’s gotta be a blow to the guy’s confidence, which is especially bad when confidence is the most important thing for him to develop right now (other than maybe a plus changeup.)
I know that this is a very abstract idea, but I really dislike the idea of messing around with our future ace just to pick up a couple of extra wins in a rebuilding season. If AM plans on dealing Millwood to a contender at the trade deadline, then I’m fine with signing Bédard because it doesn’t mess with Tillman.
Haha, thanks for the accent comment. Its ALT + 130 (on the number pad).
Yeah but here's the thing
Bédard (see what I did there?) is coming off of surgery to repair a torn labrum. We don’t know that he’ll ever be totally ready or if he’ll be as effective as he was before. But if he is ready in May/June and he is as effective (or close to as effective) as before, he’s automatically the best guy on the staff. Maybe not forever (fingers crossed) but Bédard can pitch, plain and simple.
I don’t see adding Bédard isn’t picking up a couple extra wins in a rebuilding season. If you can sign him to a cheap one year deal with an option for next year (maybe even based on incentives that he’ll reach if healthy/good), then he’s part of the future. He’s not Kevin Millwood. He’s only 30 this year, same as Guthrie. If he’s back to form then you ship off Guthrie or Millwood.
Maybe I’m just being sentimental though. I do love that surly Canadian.
I will lead these Peoples to the promised land, also known as "Slightly Ahead of the Blue Jays." ~WietersRunDry
Very good points.
I agree, mostly. I’m still worried about messing with the future in order to reconnect with the past, but I have to concede that Bédard can really pitch when healthy. If MacPhail can find a place to move Guthrie or Millwood, then I’m pro-Bédard. If not, I still like him but I’m worried about displacing our future stars to accommodate him.
And nice work using the accent ague!
A mid-rotation starter...
Hmm, let’s hope that’s all he’ll have to be in the near future. Of course, I have doubts about this year, but who knows? I guess my question is: Where in the rotation will he be?
If he’s not the “ace” then I suspect he’ll be better. It’s all in theory, but the pressure might have gotten to him—the pressure of being at the top of the rotation where he clearly does not belong.
As you say at the end, I don’t see him being spectacular. I see him being solid—that’s really all I can hope for.
i really like him as a number two or three guy
thanks to a great move to get kevin millwood, that can happen. it’s clear he was never really ace material, but i always thought he was good for a couple of great starts every year. by “great” i don’t mean no-hitter stuff, but a good 7-8 innings and upwards of 10 k’s.
http://draftdayencyclopedia.wordpress.com/
spread the word please!
2 or 3 that i can remember
like the comment below me states, it’s not really his forte, but he sometimes comes through with a huge game. i should have said upwards of 9 k’s, 10’s the highest he’s ever gone.
http://draftdayencyclopedia.wordpress.com/
spread the word please!
by danielreese05 on Jan 24, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
14 Times in 382 Starts
2009: 2
2008: 0
2007: 1
2006: 1
2005: 0
2004: 0
2003: 2
2002: 2
2001: 0
2000: 1
1999: 4
1998: 1
1997: 0
yeah i was gonna say guthrie's only been pitching since like what 04?
http://draftdayencyclopedia.wordpress.com/
spread the word please!
by danielreese05 on Jan 24, 2010 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
well guess that serves me right for skimming
I assumed he had included minor leagues. I don’t think Guthrie will by a huge strikeout pitcher unless he decides to change how he pitches. Of course as Duncan shows with the Cardinals every year you don’t need strikeouts
by OsandRoyals on Jan 24, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
Gotta agree with O'sfan21
Guthrie isn’t really a strikeout pitcher…although he probably could if he wanted. Currently he’s more of a contact pitcher although I’m pretty sure that’s because of pitching coach Kranitz’s philosophy
Unfortunately, a lot of batters make really, really good contact.
Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt
Especially this past year
but it’ll be interesting to see if with a full spring training whether Guthrie returns to giving up only mid-20ish homeruns over a full season
Actually...
After looking it up, Guthrie have up 11 more homeruns this past year than in 2008 while only pitching just under 10 more innings.
And 12 more homeruns than in 2007 in ~25 more innings.
Looking at those two homerun totals it’s pretty obvious Guthrie was the victim of bad luck and should bounce back
How does
a big increase in HRs allowed equal bad luck? I thought HRs, Ks, and BBs were some of the few things that pitchers can control?
They can control it to some
extent. All three serve as functions between a pitcher’s skill and the batter’s skill. BBs tend to fluctuate somewhat year to year but generally stay within the same parameters. Ks are similar but tend to trend downward over the years for many pitchers as batters adjust to the pitcher.
Homeruns are somewhat different. The best relief pitchers do show the ability to control homeruns as do the occasional starter (Pedro, Greinke). However the HR while generally stable for the number of flyballs is vulnerable to some luck.
Pitcher’s can be vulnerable to an above-average number of batters hitting homeruns. If that happens many of the homeruns are typically lucky ones that would normally end up as flyballs. It’s similar to players like Aaron Hill who typically have 15-20 HR power and end a season hitting 30 hrs. It’s out of the norm but it happens occasionally
I don't know.
I’m not looking at stats or anything, but I found that explanation pretty unconvincing.
ok
I’ll see if I can think of a better explanation or at least a more precise argument.
I wouldn’t say that an increase is always bad luck, but since Guthrie’s true talent level did not seem to have decreased dramatically according to pitch fx I’m assuming that. His velocity and movement are stable.
In this case I’m assuming that the large increase in homeruns is probably a mix of poor pitching mixed with some bad luck.
Well
clearly his HRs were at least partially a result of poor command within the strike zone, not a lack of velocity or movement. He’s always been a “pitch to contact” kind of guy, so when the good strikes become bad strikes the contact is obviously going to get better resulting in more HRs. I think it was a lack of command at least as much as worse luck on his part.
If Bedard comes back is Guthrie expendable?
From what I’ve read, if Bedard comes back, he might be ready by June or July (no one is sure including Bedard). If Millwood, Matusz, Tillman and Bergesen are all healthy and pitching reasonably well, is Guthrie the starter to be traded by the July 31 deadline? Or would you unload Millwood? Don’t forget that Arrieta, Patton and Britton are all hoping for a chance, too.

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