Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Lakers Should Trade Andrew Bynum So He Doesn't Go To Waste

Guthrie Going Forward- What to Expect from Jeremy Guthrie in 2010

Well I've been holding onto to this for a while, adding small things but considering Stacey's story on the Os pitching next year I decided to finish this up

 

Jeremy Guthrie had a horrible year in 2009. The only good thing that can be said is that he pitched 200 innings.  However the two years before that he was an above-average pitcher at the MLB level.  The obvious stipulation was that his FIP (fielding independent pitching or basically era with defense factored out) were over half a run higher than his ERA in both 2007 and 2008.  Some sites were pointing at Guthrie regressing based just on the difference between FIP and ERA although that does not seem to have been the primary reason. 

Jeremy20guthrie_medium

via vivalavidro.files.wordpress.com

So what exactly happened and what can we expect looking forward?

Star-divide

One of the most interesting things about Guthrie is just how much he changed as a pitcher.  Using the same stuff he changed from a balanced groundball-flyball pitcher (approximately 42-44% groundballs to 38% flyball) to an extreme flyball pitcher.  His flyball rate became 46.5% compared to his ~38% norm while his groundball ratio decreased dramatically to 34.7%

There were theories abounding about whether his lack of a true spring training affected his pitching, similar to Verlander's 2008. For those who don't remember Guthrie was invited to pitch for the American WBC team.  However, he was used infrequently and so never had the chance to get into shape for the season.

What's unusual is that with his new flyball tendencies his BABIP (batted balls in play) increased to close to .300 whereas flyball pitchers typically have low BABIPs.   As a flyball pitcher he was unlucky with a high BABIP (for him).  However his previous two seasons Guthrie had a decidedly below-average BABIP so regression was expected.  The previous two years his BABIP was .277 and .267 respectively both dramatically below-average.  This could just be his BABIP regressing towards the mean.

To me he reminds me of John Lannan of the Nationals.  Both players outperformed their fielding-independent stats fairly dramatically due to a lower than expected BABIP.  Nick Steiner wrote two articles trying to explore how Lannan had managed to pitch two years with such a low BABIP especially for a bad defensive team.  In it he acknowledged that some pitchers have lower than expected BABIPs like Johan Santana.  Nick Steiner tried to figure out how Lannan was lowering his BABIP for two years in parts 1 and 2 but couldn't find a relationship.  I suspect that Guthrie may have a similar pitching ability when he is pitching like he was from 2007-2008 and not being the extreme flyball pitcher he was in 2009.

Probably the biggest problem for Guthrie this year was his homers. While Guthrie became a flyball pitcher, his homeruns per a flyball stayed static even though he was inducing many more flyballs.  This should have decreased somewhat as a flyball pitcher.  So I decided to check out hittrackeronline.com to get a closer look.  Eight of his thirty-five homeruns allowed were labeled just enough.  These are somewhat lucky homeruns which means that Guthrie probably suffered from some bad luck with his homeruns.  We could reasonable expect Guthrie's homeruns to decrease next year.  For more information on Guthrie's homeruns allowed click here.

One of the questions that needs to be asked is whether Guthrie will stay a flyball pitcher or revert back to the pitcher he was before. As a flyball pitcher in Camden Yards and in the AL East Guthrie gave up more than his fair share of homeruns.  The one benefit he has as a flyball pitcher is that he has a strong outfield defense behind him (minus Reimold although he should improve when not playing on an Achilles injury all season long) The past three years the Orioles have beenslightly below-average with two below average seasons and their only positive average being from 2008 according to fangraphs UZR. Defense does not seem to be a true reason for Guthrie's low BABIP

If Guthrie reverts to being his normal self I suspect that his era will be higher than 2007-2008 probably right around 4.00.  He should be a net positive as a mid-rotation starter.  If he remains an extreme flyball pitcher it could be nasty with him posting a similar year although possibly mitigated somewhat by our outfield defense.  I personally believe he will revert to being the pitcher of yore although he may give up slightly more flyballs than he used to.

FanPosts are user-created content and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Camden Chat or SB Nation. They might, though.

Comment 38 comments  |  2 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Great stuff

I hold hope that Guthrie will get back to form in 2010. The luck factor you mentioned a couple times gives me even more hope.

I love that hit tracker site.

by Stacey on Jan 14, 2010 8:08 AM EST reply actions  

I see Jeremy Guthrie

falling somewhere in between his underachieving numbers from last year and his overachieving numbers from 07 and 08. Maybe 12-10, 4.25 ERA, around 200 IP.

Serviceable is all we really can expect at this point, but a return to his earlier form would be wonderful. By the end of the year (if all goes well with the youngstaz), he could be near the back end of the rotation and possibly out of it altogether by 2011.

by sickuvitall on Jan 14, 2010 9:41 AM EST reply actions  

I'd be thrilled

with 12-10, a 4.25 and 200 IP.

by O'sFan21 on Jan 14, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Psychology has been mentioned here as a key to his (prospective) turnaround. But y'know...

I’m beginning to hope that he doesn’t overanalyze his ‘09 problems. I remember Palmer commenting before one mid-season start that he’d been talking with JG, who was a very cerebral pitcher and had been busy analyzing his season’s shortcomings as hard as he could for some weeks now. Well, he didn’t exactly Figure It All Out shortly thereafter, did he?

Guts was clearly far more effective when he was just an underpaid guy who rode his bike to the park, pitched every 5th day and somehow remained upbeat when his teammates screwed up behind him again and again and again. Maybe what he really needs most is to relax…and see what spontaneity brings out.

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.

by Titov on Jan 14, 2010 12:35 PM EST reply actions  

OK, either that or find a nice Mormon girl and, y’know, let things get all spontaneous that way. Just sayin’.

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.

by Titov on Jan 14, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Or...

4-5 nice Mormon girls. Just sayin’.

by O'sFan21 on Jan 14, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

+2, lol

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.

by Titov on Jan 15, 2010 12:38 AM EST up reply actions  

ooh, another good one!

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Churchill,1942-- a rebuilding year.

by Titov on Jan 15, 2010 10:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm concerned about...

…a similar dropoff from Bergesen, given his lack of great ‘stuff’. I agree with Matusz…bring in Bedard.

by sabertooth5185 on Jan 20, 2010 9:33 AM EST reply actions  

Well if they do bring in Bédard...

    Will he be ready to pitch by Opening Day? Probably not. I’m pretty sure that he would have already gotten some serious offers if he were healthy enough to pitch by Opening Day.
    And who gets knocked out of the rotation when Bédard starts pitching? It certainly won’t be Millwood or Guthrie, and Bergeson’s rookie campaign has all but guaranteed him as a lock for a rotation spot. So that means that either Matusz or Tillman will see fewer major league innings because one of them will be subjugated by Bédard. In addition, Arrieta will be less likely to see any big league action. Remember, this season isn’t about winning – it’s about getting the young guys the experience that they need to develop into competitive, skilled players for 2011, 2012, ect.
    While I believe that surplus pitching is a great thing, there is a point when it can become too crowded on the depth chart. Unless AM plans to shop the veteran pitchers at the trade deadline, I just don’t see Bédard fitting into the team’s plan.

by SeanP on Jan 21, 2010 2:56 AM EST reply actions  

Having too many starting pitchers is a problem I'd like to have

Look at how many starting pitchers Boston had going into last year and they still ended up thin.

Also, kudos for adding the accent to Bedard’s name.

I will lead these Peoples to the promised land, also known as "Slightly Ahead of the Blue Jays." ~WietersRunDry

by Stacey on Jan 21, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

While I agree that it would be nice to have too much starting pitching,

    I keep thinking about a situation where the O’s sign Bédard, leaving Tillman – who is projected as our future #1, mind you – to pitch the first half of season knowing that, regardless of his performance, he will be demoted to AAA as soon as Bédard is healthy enough to pitch. I mean, that’s gotta be a blow to the guy’s confidence, which is especially bad when confidence is the most important thing for him to develop right now (other than maybe a plus changeup.)
    I know that this is a very abstract idea, but I really dislike the idea of messing around with our future ace just to pick up a couple of extra wins in a rebuilding season. If AM plans on dealing Millwood to a contender at the trade deadline, then I’m fine with signing Bédard because it doesn’t mess with Tillman.

Haha, thanks for the accent comment. Its ALT + 130 (on the number pad).

by SeanP on Jan 21, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah but here's the thing

Bédard (see what I did there?) is coming off of surgery to repair a torn labrum. We don’t know that he’ll ever be totally ready or if he’ll be as effective as he was before. But if he is ready in May/June and he is as effective (or close to as effective) as before, he’s automatically the best guy on the staff. Maybe not forever (fingers crossed) but Bédard can pitch, plain and simple.

I don’t see adding Bédard isn’t picking up a couple extra wins in a rebuilding season. If you can sign him to a cheap one year deal with an option for next year (maybe even based on incentives that he’ll reach if healthy/good), then he’s part of the future. He’s not Kevin Millwood. He’s only 30 this year, same as Guthrie. If he’s back to form then you ship off Guthrie or Millwood.

Maybe I’m just being sentimental though. I do love that surly Canadian.

I will lead these Peoples to the promised land, also known as "Slightly Ahead of the Blue Jays." ~WietersRunDry

by Stacey on Jan 21, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Very good points.

I agree, mostly. I’m still worried about messing with the future in order to reconnect with the past, but I have to concede that Bédard can really pitch when healthy. If MacPhail can find a place to move Guthrie or Millwood, then I’m pro-Bédard. If not, I still like him but I’m worried about displacing our future stars to accommodate him.

And nice work using the accent ague!

by SeanP on Jan 21, 2010 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

A mid-rotation starter...

Hmm, let’s hope that’s all he’ll have to be in the near future. Of course, I have doubts about this year, but who knows? I guess my question is: Where in the rotation will he be?

If he’s not the “ace” then I suspect he’ll be better. It’s all in theory, but the pressure might have gotten to him—the pressure of being at the top of the rotation where he clearly does not belong.

As you say at the end, I don’t see him being spectacular. I see him being solid—that’s really all I can hope for.

by DCO'sfan on Jan 21, 2010 10:35 AM EST reply actions  

i really like him as a number two or three guy

thanks to a great move to get kevin millwood, that can happen. it’s clear he was never really ace material, but i always thought he was good for a couple of great starts every year. by “great” i don’t mean no-hitter stuff, but a good 7-8 innings and upwards of 10 k’s.

http://draftdayencyclopedia.wordpress.com/
spread the word please!

by danielreese05 on Jan 24, 2010 3:15 PM EST reply actions  

upwards of 10 k's???

how many times in his whole career has he had 10 k’s in an outing??

by O'sFan21 on Jan 24, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

2 or 3 that i can remember

like the comment below me states, it’s not really his forte, but he sometimes comes through with a huge game. i should have said upwards of 9 k’s, 10’s the highest he’s ever gone.

http://draftdayencyclopedia.wordpress.com/
spread the word please!

by danielreese05 on Jan 24, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

14 Times in 382 Starts

2009: 2
2008: 0
2007: 1
2006: 1
2005: 0
2004: 0
2003: 2
2002: 2
2001: 0
2000: 1
1999: 4
1998: 1
1997: 0

by kba26 on Jan 24, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

No, i misread

Thats for kevin millwood

by kba26 on Jan 24, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Jeremey Guthrie: 2 Times in 90 Starts

2009: 1
2008: 0
2007: 1
2004-2006 (with CLE): 0

by kba26 on Jan 24, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

well guess that serves me right for skimming

I assumed he had included minor leagues. I don’t think Guthrie will by a huge strikeout pitcher unless he decides to change how he pitches. Of course as Duncan shows with the Cardinals every year you don’t need strikeouts

by OsandRoyals on Jan 24, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Gotta agree with O'sfan21

Guthrie isn’t really a strikeout pitcher…although he probably could if he wanted. Currently he’s more of a contact pitcher although I’m pretty sure that’s because of pitching coach Kranitz’s philosophy

by OsandRoyals on Jan 24, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately, a lot of batters make really, really good contact.

Don't let the sunshine fool ya. - Townes Van Zandt

by BPinOK on Jan 25, 2010 9:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Especially this past year

but it’ll be interesting to see if with a full spring training whether Guthrie returns to giving up only mid-20ish homeruns over a full season

by OsandRoyals on Jan 25, 2010 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually...

After looking it up, Guthrie have up 11 more homeruns this past year than in 2008 while only pitching just under 10 more innings.
And 12 more homeruns than in 2007 in ~25 more innings.

Looking at those two homerun totals it’s pretty obvious Guthrie was the victim of bad luck and should bounce back

by OsandRoyals on Jan 25, 2010 9:52 PM EST up reply actions  

How does

a big increase in HRs allowed equal bad luck? I thought HRs, Ks, and BBs were some of the few things that pitchers can control?

by O'sFan21 on Jan 25, 2010 11:55 PM EST up reply actions  

They can control it to some

extent. All three serve as functions between a pitcher’s skill and the batter’s skill. BBs tend to fluctuate somewhat year to year but generally stay within the same parameters. Ks are similar but tend to trend downward over the years for many pitchers as batters adjust to the pitcher.
Homeruns are somewhat different. The best relief pitchers do show the ability to control homeruns as do the occasional starter (Pedro, Greinke). However the HR while generally stable for the number of flyballs is vulnerable to some luck.
Pitcher’s can be vulnerable to an above-average number of batters hitting homeruns. If that happens many of the homeruns are typically lucky ones that would normally end up as flyballs. It’s similar to players like Aaron Hill who typically have 15-20 HR power and end a season hitting 30 hrs. It’s out of the norm but it happens occasionally

by OsandRoyals on Jan 26, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know.

I’m not looking at stats or anything, but I found that explanation pretty unconvincing.

by O'sFan21 on Jan 26, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions  

ok

I’ll see if I can think of a better explanation or at least a more precise argument.

I wouldn’t say that an increase is always bad luck, but since Guthrie’s true talent level did not seem to have decreased dramatically according to pitch fx I’m assuming that. His velocity and movement are stable.
In this case I’m assuming that the large increase in homeruns is probably a mix of poor pitching mixed with some bad luck.

by OsandRoyals on Jan 26, 2010 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

clearly his HRs were at least partially a result of poor command within the strike zone, not a lack of velocity or movement. He’s always been a “pitch to contact” kind of guy, so when the good strikes become bad strikes the contact is obviously going to get better resulting in more HRs. I think it was a lack of command at least as much as worse luck on his part.

by O'sFan21 on Jan 26, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

That could very well be

Now to beg Dave Allen to give us a pitch fx look

by OsandRoyals on Jan 26, 2010 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

If Bedard comes back is Guthrie expendable?

From what I’ve read, if Bedard comes back, he might be ready by June or July (no one is sure including Bedard). If Millwood, Matusz, Tillman and Bergesen are all healthy and pitching reasonably well, is Guthrie the starter to be traded by the July 31 deadline? Or would you unload Millwood? Don’t forget that Arrieta, Patton and Britton are all hoping for a chance, too.

by fuddnelson on Jan 27, 2010 1:29 PM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The SB Nation blog covering the Baltimore Orioles.

Please read our Community Guidelines

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Dscn6381_small
Oriole Birthday Mantra.
Small
On Being an Oriole Fan in Israel
Wieters_small
The O's and Early Bullpen Usage
Mlb_orioles_wieters_240_small
O-R-I-O-L-E-S! *NOT* Day-O!
Cc_small
Awesome Stuff

Recent FanPosts

Small
Okay, okay, I give! I'm sucked in!
4fgfgjfxe30x64uwibpb59rg9_small
Help with Baseball Statistics
Small
I have to ask...
091_small
Rooting for the Red Sox
4fgfgjfxe30x64uwibpb59rg9_small
Can we get a broadcasting coach or trainer for Mike Bordick?
Pbr_12_pack_small
Literary Lounge

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Official Sponsor of Camden Chat GameThreads

Tankeray_medium
Tankeray provided by dayzd toe


Bowser

Cc_small Stacey

Koopa Troopas

Baltimore_oriole_avatar_small zknower

P1030831_small 2632

Rainbowsmall_small duck

Esskay_small Eat More Esskay

Youppi-192_small Andrew_G

Goombas

Birdman_small birdman

Thumbnail_small j.q. higgins

Img_0927_small dfa

4840750964_54cdc24eef_small James F

091_small WestcoastO'sFan

2009_june22_philliekid3_small twistedlogic

Yoshi_small PaulFolk