DDDWTF for 5/17: ANOTHER intentional walk??
In every Orioles game, there's at least one managerial move made by Dave Trembley that confounds intelligent baseball fans, a move that causes observers everywhere to smack their palms into their foreheads and unleash a string of curses.
Sometimes the move is based on some ridiculous notion of "old school" baseball which ignores how the game has changed over the years. Other times, it's based on an obsession with "small ball" or late inning matchups. But most often, it's simply a move that leaves O's fans confused and speechless, unable to do anything except turn to each other and say: WTF!?!
These are some of those moves.
There were two moves in last night's game that made me say WTF? One came in the bottom of the 9th inning when the Orioles had runners on first and second with none out and Trembley ordered Corey Patterson to bunt the runners over. Not only had Patterson been on base three times in the game and scored all three runs, but the next batter in the lineup was Nick Markakis, one of the team's only hot hitters. Patterson is fast enough that anything other than the most tailor made of double play balls would probably be beaten out, but still he bunted. It took the bat out of the hands of Patterson who, granted, isn't great, but who has been hot. It also took the bat out of the hands of Nick Markakis and let's face it, only Nick and Ty Wigginton are hitting lately. And don't you want BOTH of them getting a chance in the bottom of the 9th?
But that wasn't the biggest WTF moment of the night. That moment came in the 6th inning when the Orioles AGAIN intentionally walked the bases loaded. You might remember when the Orioles did this last Tuesday with David Hernandez on the mound. It didn't work then, and it didn't work now. The fearsome Mitch Maier was intentionally walked. Maier, he of zero home runs and .679 OPS. The result of course was a run scoring on a ground ball to third one batter later. Well done, Dave Trembley. All I can say is WTF?
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One point that made me say WTF
Was in the top of the 7th, two outs, and a man on second. One of their best hitters comes up to bat and Bergy is at 100 PC (or almost there). Why do you not bring in someone else to try to get him out?
The future is not what it used to be.
when had a IBB worked for the o's
I don’t understand many of DD’s moves, a batter who was 0-2 on the night gets the free pass so face he guy who is 2-2. Sense, it makes none.
As for the other situation with Patterson, he was the only one looking to win yesterday and was finding every way to get on base. He still nearly beat out the throw. Why not have him swing the bat, considering the speed that was on base. A single would have tied it up with still your hottest hitters coming up.
Much like last year you see Trembley making these question mark moves every night, yes some work out, but his odds of success are lower than our winning percentage.
I disagree that CPat was the only one looking to win
Adam Jones’ bunt for a hit tells me he’s willing to try anything. Say what you will about Brian Roberts, but he won’t lay down a bunt for a hit, even when he’s struggling. Adam just isn’t doing well now, but it’s not from lack of effort. It would almost be easier to watch if it was. I’m beginning to think he may not be the hitter we thought he would be.
"Oh, and Joe? If Brian hits any of your delicate millionaires, know that he meant it." - Stacey
See his quotes after the game?
He’s so frustrated it’s almost tangible.
"Oh, and Joe? If Brian hits any of your delicate millionaires, know that he meant it." - Stacey
They need to send him down.
Dude’s confidence is shot. And if it’s good enough for Reimold, it’s good enough for our All-Star CF, whose ceiling is supposedly higher.
From the Land of Pleasant Living...
Were you there?
I remember feeling awful for him, he walked all the way up the line into RF with Shelby in hot pursuit. That kid had DEFCON6 level meltdown potential.
From where I was sitting, it looked like he made good contact but sounded like he split his bat for a second time that AB.
by TerroristFistJab on May 18, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
There is a silver lining to this dark cloud.
I’m in Seattle so I don’t have to suffer through watching this tragedy.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
I was slammed a week or so ago...
for basically using this same logic.
I said that Trembley was wrong for taking the bat out of Atkins hands (pinch hit Rhyno) late in the game when he was the only Oriole swinging the bat that night. But whatever… these are still the best posts, daily. I’m sure Stacey would confirm that any form of evidence supporting Trembley’s removal is alright by me.
To be fair
the issue was partly about Corey but mostly about giving both Nick and Wiggy the opportunity to hit. When Rhyno PH for Atkins, the batters after him were Reimold, Lou, and Izzy. Atkins can’t hit and neither can those guys. Wiggy and Nick can.
Context is everything
"Oh, and Joe? If Brian hits any of your delicate millionaires, know that he meant it." - Stacey
That's what SHE said...
….uh, in the Political Events workshop.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
I don't believe in the "hot bat"
So that stuff doesn’t bother me. What studies have been done indicate that a player is no more likely to get a hit if they already have two that day than they are if they are 0-4. Think of it like flipping a coin; it isn’t more likely to come up heads just because it already has come up heads twice in a row. Obviously, other factors play into this – a player might be 0-4 because they have a bad approach or their swing is messed up, and a player might be 2-3 because they see the ball particularly well in a certain park or off certain pitchers. But absent other data, recent performance is not a good indicator for future performance.
What I do know is that giving away free bases is usually a very bad idea, and that giving away outs by bunting is usually a very bad idea. And to me, that is the essence of why this is a daily feature here now – not because we’re losing, but because we’re losing in part due to fundamentally unsound strategies that we ought to know better than to employ.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
I hate this arguement
If a batter has two hits in a game, it’s likely said batter is doing something well that night and shouldn’t have the bat taken away for someone who’s been less successful that night.
And Stacey, I know you dislike Atkins (and rightfully so). But a 2-3 Atkins is much better than all of Reimold/Lou/Izzy combined. So maybe that Rhyno pinch hit would have been better served for one of them?
A 2-3 Atkins is NOT better than Reimold
There was one out at the time. You could argue that Atkins is better than Lou and Izzy, but the fact is those two never even made it to the plate
2010 wOBA figures
Reimold wOBA of .292
Atkins wOBA of ..258
Don’t like wOBA? How about wRC?
Reimold wRC of 8.6
Atkins wRC of 6.9
It isn’t even very close.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Likely based on what?
We know that players will generally hit something between .250 and .350 in a given season. Basic probability theory tells us that these hits will be randomly distributed. Which tells us that we should expect, based on nothing other than randomness and chance, that we should see players having games where they are hitless and multi-hit games.
So what makes any individual player’s success in any given game a likely indicator that they are doing something well? In other words, where is the evidence?
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
well arguing about facts is a ridiculous exercise.
Somebody is right. The probability argument is sound but I do not not necessarily buy into your premise that recent performance is not a good indicator of future performance.
The data may bear out something significantly different due to some of the variables that you list yourself.
Do you have any links to any studies looking at this?
I think i fall somewhere in the middle. I agree that hits are to some degree randomly distributed and that one night’s performance is not necessarily a indicator (gambler’s fallacy and all that), but I’m not sure i believe its perfectly random. Because these are people and not just random number generators, it does seem like there could be some factors that would influence performance on a given night.
I’d certainly hate to see someone not be pinch-hit for solely because he’s having a hot night, but without really looking at the data ignoring a hot night completely seems just as unwise.
of course it's not "perfectly" random.
players are not stats. they’re players. there are all kinds of non-random factors affecting an AB. we just can’t measure them all.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
I think it depends
I might – MIGHT – be swayed in the Atkins case if the same pitcher were in the game for his fourth AB as was his first three. Or perhaps if it were a player like Luke who has documented history of supreme hot and cold stretches. But outside those kinds of things, I don’t ever believe that Atkins is more likely to get a hit on a day when he’s 2-3 than on a day when he’s 0-3.
It has been looked at more academically in basketball
Here is one example of an academic paper on the subject (PDF warning!).
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Which tells us that we should expect, based on nothing other than randomness and chance, that we should see players having games where they are hitless and multi-hit games.
But it’s not all randomness and chance. Certain hitters do well against certain pitchers for their entire career. Presumably they see the ball better coming out of THAT pitcher’s hand, or whatever. You yourself say above that hitters might do better in a certain ballpark. And there’s no question that a guy who’s had 5 hits in his last two games is likely to be more “comfortable at the plate” (fearless, confident, whatever you want to call it) and therefore a better decision-maker than a guy who’s 0 for his last 16 and is pressing.
As we argued the other week, just because we don’t know how to measure it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
We agree on that
But that said, we can measure some things. The data on “hot hands” has been measured, and largely found fictional, just like “clutch hitting”.
As for the other things, we can measure them. We can measure how hitters do against particular pitchers and in particular parks, how they do in day games and night games, etc. We often have sample size problems, but they can be measured.
But like you said, there are also things we don’t know how to measure yet. And those things also factor in to outcomes. But our inability to measure them makes us, in my opinion, unable to base decisions on them.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
The data on "hot hands" has been measured, and largely found fictional, just like "clutch hitting".
Citation? I would like to read the study.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
There have been quite a few
One is linked above, focusing on basketball.
One of the more famous people to look at this was Stephen Jay Gould; his article, drawing on the work of Nobel Laureates in both economics and physics, can be found here.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
i think the linked article is a gould review a book by seidel?
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
It is...
…but like most NYRB reviews, the material in the review is about much more than the book itself.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
yeah, but there’s no original empirical analysis.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
i believe...
it was just a couple years ago that no less an authority than bill james himself sort of walked back his definitive statement against clutch.
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on May 18, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The Baseball Between the Numbers book has a chapter on clutch. There’s a small amount of evidence for it. If I remember correctly, certain types of hitters tend to be more clutch.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
yeah, i remember that...
but the bill james thing was later than that. i think his point, in any case, was that there may be something to it, but he hadn’t really seen any reliable metrics to measure it.
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on May 18, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I think there’s something to it. For example, I think certain people choke in playoff situations. Conversely, certain players are better at handling high pressure situations with all things being equal. But I don’t think choking or clutch are things you can measure reliably.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
I'm unable to find a link to Ed Purcell's research...
…so I’m not able to find you his empirical analysis. His work is widely referenced, however.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
a study about a "hot hand" in basketball is kind of irrelevant
the basket doesn’t move much.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
That seems to me a lot like saying...
…that home plate doesn’t move much.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
yeah, but i'm skeptical of generalizing results from basketball to baseball
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
I'm skeptical by default
But I don’t see a reason to believe that something that isn’t true in one context is true in another.
If “hot streaks” are a result of randomness in basketball, in gambling, and in stock picking, it follows to me that the same is the case in baseball.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
But in basketball
You are shooting at a non-moving object.
In baseball, that’s not the case.
"Oh, and Joe? If Brian hits any of your delicate millionaires, know that he meant it." - Stacey
If you're a hitter
If you’re pitching, then the object you are throwing at still doesn’t move.
But of course, the point, I think, is that although the basket doesn’t move, the position you are shooting from does, the position of the defenders does, your level of exhaustion does, the conditions on the court do, the condition of the ball does… there are a ton of uncontrolled factors in both cases.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Sure it does
Derek Jeter doesn’t get the same strike zone Adam Jones does.
"Oh, and Joe? If Brian hits any of your delicate millionaires, know that he meant it." - Stacey
And Kobe gets fouls other guys don't
Again, I don’t think I’m saying that they are the same. Just that there aren’t particularly substantive reasons why something true in one would be untrue in another.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
in basketball, you are facing a basket.
in baseball, you are facing a person. I think there’s a tremendous difference between the two.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
well it's not just you and a basket
unless you’re talking about shots from the foul line. There are still plenty of people.
all the more reason why the two aren't comparable
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
lol
First of all I’m not saying they ARE comparable. But you said they’re not comparable when because in basketball you are facing a basket, not a person. But when I say, yes, you are facing a person, that makes it even less comparable?
i stand behind my original statement
because i’m sure “hot streaks” apply to foul shots as well.
basically, i’m saying one is nothing like the other for many, many reasons.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
But no one is comparing them
We’re looking at a single thing: whether people who are on hot streaks actually are experiencing improved odds of success, or whether hot streaks are a statistical aberration that do not influence the odds.
If hot streaks are real – if people experience improved odds of success due to factors other than skill level – we should see that across all types of human activity.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
If hot streaks are real – if people experience improved odds of success due to factors other than skill level – we should see that across all types of human activity.
But what does basketball have to do with baseball? They’re both involve a ball but that’s it. Just because we see something in basketball does not mean it applies to baseball.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
I don't understand
We’re measuring success and failure rates, and whether or not hot streaks influence the odds of success and failure.
If hot streaks are real, they should be real in all situations. What would be a reasonable explanation for why baseball players go on actual hot streaks but basketball players don’t? Yes, the two activities are different, but if hot streaks are real, they are real, right?
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
If hot streaks are real, they should be real in all situations.
I disagree… strongly.
What would be a reasonable explanation for why baseball players go on actual hot streaks but basketball players don’t?
Different sports, different game conditions.
Yes, the two activities are different, but if hot streaks are real, they are real, right?
I don’t agree with making a broad generalizable statement unless there’s evidence to support it.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
by birdman on May 18, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, the evidence does support it
The smartest people to date who have looked at both subjects have reached the same conclusion – there is no such thing as the “hot hand”. At some point, we’re talking in circles – the only evidence introduced has been the cases against hot streaks.
But, for what it is worth, the same evidence suggests that different sports and conditions don’t matter. We’re talking about the ability of humans to influence outcomes through means other than overall skill level – the notion that our skill level improves during particular streaks of performance. If our skill level can improve in that way, it should be observable in a myriad of circumstances.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Can't I at least do a Gaussian distribution of how terrible he is?
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
You'd need more than one data point to do a distribution

by kba26 on May 18, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The smartest people to date who have looked at both subjects have reached the same conclusion – there is no such thing as the "hot hand". At some point, we’re talking in circles – the only evidence introduced has been the cases against hot streaks.
I don’t know if I’d call these people the “smartest people to date” but if there’s evidence supporting the notion that hot streaks are non-existent in various sports, I’ll certainly believe it. Like I already said, I would like to look at the evidence myself, but I’ll take your word.
the same evidence suggests that different sports and conditions don’t matter.
Yeah, now that I won’t believe w/o seeing the evidence first hand. That’s just plain sloppy methodology at first glance.
If our skill level can improve in that way, itshouldCOULD be observable in a myriad of circumstances.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
So why pinch hit in certain situations?
Why would managers prefer a lefty/righty matchup over a lefty/lefty matchup if hits are based off nothing other than randomness and chance?
I’m all for the new stat movement in baseball, just not to the extent most BP worshipers (and apparently you) are. There’s a certain feel to the game that cannot be represented by stats. And no, I’m not referring to grittyness, Joe Morgan.
I’m simply saying, as a player not a fan, that if I’m 2-3 on a certain day, I’m likely seeing the ball well and extremely comfortable at the plate. Moreso than pulling a rookie off the bench, late in the game, to perform in a tight spot.
Why would managers prefer a lefty/righty matchup over a lefty/lefty matchup if hits are based off nothing other than randomness and chance?
This is a straw man. He’s not arguing this at all, perferring a certain match up based on handedness is based on years of accumulated data, not a single nights performance.
Honestly if you were arguing over a player that had any discernable major league skill at all
you might have a leg to stand on. But Garrett Atkins is downright putrid. He never sees the ball well, he’s never comfortable at the plate, and he’s never likely to get a hit. I don’t remember his specific hits that night but if I were a betting lady I’d say that at least one of them was a bloop and/or lucky. Because that’s how awful Garrett Atkins is.
That's not fair.
You’re biased, and the comparison is Atkins vs Rhyno. You’re seriously taking an unproven rookie?
I think Atkins sucks too, fwiw.
dude there is only one way out of this.
You are going to have to pull Atkins game by game stats comparing the frequencies of multi-hit games to single hit games. Good luck finding that leg to stand on.
I don't know if that is a way out of it, but I'll do it just for fun
Atkins has played in 31 games this year, but two have been for one inning only, so we’ll say 29. Of those he has:
7 multi-hit games (1 game with 3, the rest 2)
10 games with 1 hit
12 games with no hits.
You'd have to go a lot further back to see if theres any effect
You’d need to look at each game and see how his batting average later in that game was impacted by hits earlier in the game and how that compares to his batting average for that season to see if success early in a game is a predictor of success later in the game
I’m sure this isnt perfect, but theres more to it than just looking at the frequency of multi-hit games.
Well I don't care enough to do all that
My analysis of Garrett Atkins is sound: He’s bad at baseball.
I think, as a player, you're allowing yourself to be biased by outcomes
You count the hits you make, right? Not the balls that you hit well but right at a fielder, or the home runs that were stolen by a great over the fence catch, but the hits. Including the crappy infield hits that you beat out or the Texas leaguers.
But as a player you also know that the results don’t truly reflect the process, right? That sometimes you hit the ball perfectly and got screwed, and sometimes you luck out and that pitch you never should have swung at got through the infield.
You are right on one point though – there is a measurable penalty to a player’s true talent when coming in as a pinch hitter. So even if Hughes is the better hitter in that situation than Atkins in a pure sense, you have to subtract the pinch hitting penalty from his chances of getting a hit.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
As a player
If I’m hitting the ball hard, that’s all that matters. So yes, in a certain respect, I’m fully aware that results don’t truely reflect performance level.
That’s why I believe some of the new (more simple) stats like BABIP and ERA+
Having not seen the game.
The IBB sounds from the description to have been pretty textbook. I mean groundball to third is what you want there, no? Should’nt a DP or an out at the plate ensued?
The sac in the ninth though is mind numbing. Tie run in scoring position no outs, best bat on deck? And it is not like it is the first time he has failed with this tactic. Does he not realize? Could the solution be as simple as a phone call? “hey silly, you know when you open up first they always walk Nick”. “what in the where now?”
It is, say i dunno ‘unfortunate’, that both WTF moments describe the IBB scenario with KC winning that battle of the minds 2-0.
textbook =/= right
Theres no shortage of baseball truisms that have been proven wrong by more in-depth analysis that plenty of people refuse to acknowledge. Dave, unfortunately, seems to firmly be one of these people.
Such as sac bunt = good idea
No, it’s not.
"Oh, and Joe? If Brian hits any of your delicate millionaires, know that he meant it." - Stacey
Well...
Except for the fact that Bettancourt had pissed all over 3E1N on both of his hits to that point.
That and Miggy just wasn’t in position to get the runner at home, which he should have been. He cut Izzy off and looked perplexed and took a long time to get the throw off. He would’ve had the lead runner at the plate had he had that plan going in.
by TerroristFistJab on May 18, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
He made the cardinal sin of infielders
He didn’t know where to throw the ball before he made the play. You have GOT to know where you are going with the ball if it comes at you before contact is ever made.
"Oh, and Joe? If Brian hits any of your delicate millionaires, know that he meant it." - Stacey
I thought
it looked like he just couldn’t get a good grip on the ball until it was too late to throw home.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -- Earl Weaver
Right
If you saw the replay the ball got kinda stuck in his glove and he couldn’t get a handle on it. He wanted to throw home but wouldn’t have made it by the time he got a grip on the ball.
Of course, you don’t need a grip on the ball to look a guy back to 3B if it’s not a force play.
I buy that...
I just was shocked at his expression as he looked back and forth between home, second, and finally to first. After fielding the ball he was standing on the IF grass, so I was pretty shocked he didn’t at least attempt the play at home.
by TerroristFistJab on May 18, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought it looked like the runner ran right in front of him
and he got too distracted by it to make a good throw home
by wishEYEhadCRABS on May 18, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
just curious...
has trembley’s strategery so thoroughly harshed the board’s mellow that the clock has been turned back to march, b/c, like, yesterday was may 17 or 5/17.
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
this whole second guessing thread / feature thing is insulting to trembely and is little more than just senseless yap
I dont think its second guessing
When he consistently makes the same decisions with very low rates of success.
It's insulting to me
to see my baseball team run into the ground. And I don’t just mean Trembley, I mean all of it.
DT is a big boy, he can handle the criticism.
it would only be insulting if there are personal attacks on him.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
If he did his job
We’d run out of material rather quickly. This isn’t rocket science. He’s entering Brain Surgeon Sam territory here.
I feel like we’re in the last season of BSG:
This has all happened before, and it will happen again.
"Oh, and Joe? If Brian hits any of your delicate millionaires, know that he meant it." - Stacey
If he did his job
- the o’s would not be the laughing stock of MLB
- players not named atkins would want to play for baltimore
- lugo would be hitting leadoff for a softball team
- the hit and run would officially be retired from the sport
i thin kexcept for the lugo thing...
these are all demonstrably false statements.
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on May 18, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
i'll give you the hit and run but
His managerial decisions are a joke – thus this thread. So explain why any player would want to come play for this team that is led by DD when he has not put his players in a position to succeed?
by Philly O's on May 18, 2010 4:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
A team with a .308 winning percentage is insulting to me
I'm ready for a straight jacket. - Joe Angel, 4/17/10 (O's record: 1-11)
by Eat More Esskay on May 18, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Poor guy
I mean, here Dave sits, being paid something around $500,000 a season, and he had to get insulted by the likes of us. Just for making questionable decisions in public!
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
by James F on May 18, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
for ten bucks a day
You can insult me all you want. 15 on weekends and 20 on goverment holidays.
by Philly O's on May 18, 2010 4:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

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