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Around SBN: Bob Sapp Denies Throwing Fights

Is There Such a Thing as a Pitching Prospect?

Among the sabermetrically inclined, it is almost an article of faith: There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.  Pitchers are more inconsistent than position players are in terms of performance, have a higher injury rate, and are more likely to lose effectiveness due to injury.  Victor Wang took it further, and did research demonstrating that top position prospects are worth nearly double what top pitching prospects are worth.

Because of this, it has always seemed odd to me that so many pitchers are selected at the top of every draft.  I recently asked SB Nation draft expert Andy Seiler about this, and his response was:

Teams value pitchers because, even though the records say that hitters make it big early, they feel that getting that great pitcher is that much more important. You can find a shortstop or a third baseman or a center fielder in later rounds with better success than you can find pitchers in the later rounds most of the time, and it’s also easier to acquire those types of hitters on the market. Pitchers are harder to find, and that’s what they’re shooting for. There’s not a lot to back that with real evidence, but that’s the general consensus in the game, and like I always say, the people in the game are a whole lot smarter than the average fan gives them credit for.

Star-divide

But are they smarter than we think?

Let's take a look at this from another angle.  A lot of focus has been placed on the bust rate of pitchers, how many of the highest rated pitching prospects and highest selected pitchers in the draft fail.  But what about the pitchers who succeed, who become staff aces?  What can we learn by looking at the successes instead of the failures?

Here is a list of all pitchers who had posted a seasonal WAR of 5.0 or higher from 2002 (the earliest year that Fangraphs provides WAR data) through 2009, and their draft round or status as an international free agent.  A WAR of 5 is a somewhat arbitrary standard for an ace, but I believe that it is as good a number as there is to separate the true aces from the merely good.  From 2002 until 2009, there have been 99 pitching seasons of five or more WAR.  These 99 pitching seasons are distributed among merely 50 pitchers.

2009
                   
Grienke 1st round 9.4
Verlander 1st round 8.2
Lincecum 1st round 8.2
Halladay 1st round 7.3
F. Hernandez Int. Signing 6.9
C. Lee 4th round 6.6
J. Vazquez Int. Signing 6.6
Lester 2nd round 6.2
Haren 2nd round 6.1
Sabathia 1st round 6.0
Wainwright 1st round 5.7
Jimenez Int. Signing 5.7
C. Carpenter 1st round 5.6
J. Johnson 4th round 5.5
Beckett 1st round 5.3
2008

Sabathia 1st round 7.5
Lincecum 1st round 7.5
Halladay 1st round 7.4
C. Lee 4th round 7.2
Haren 2nd round 6.5
B. Webb 8th round 6.1
E. Santana Int. Signing 5.8
AJ Burnett 8th round 5.5
Mussina 1st round 5.3
Danks 1st round 5.2
Lester 2nd round 5.1
Dempster 3rd round 5.1
Beckett 1st round 5.0
Meche 1st round 5.0
2007

Sabathia 1st round 7.1
B. Webb 8th round 6.9
Beckett 1st round 6.5
Peavy 15th Round 6.1
J. Blanton 1st round 5.6
Halladay 1st round 5.6
Lackey 2nd round 5.6
Smoltz 22nd round 5.5
Bedard 6th round 5.4
Kazmir 1st round 5.3
Hudson 6th round 5.3
K. Escobar Int. Signing 5.2
Harang 6th round 5.2
J. Vazquez Int. Signing 5.1
2006

J. Santana Int. Signing 7.3
B. Webb 8th round 7.0
Bonderman 1st round 6.1
Lackey 2nd round 6.0
Smoltz 22nd round 5.7
Oswalt 23rd round 5.7
Halladay 1st round 5.7
Schilling 2nd round 5.5
Sabathia 1st round 5.5
Harang 6th round 5.4
Mussina 1st round 5.2
C. Carpenter 1st round 5.2
Millwood 11th round 5.1
Bedard 6th round 5.0
2005

J. Santana Int. Signing 7.6
C. Carpenter 1st round 6.8
Buerhle 38th round 6.3
D. Willis 8th round 6.2
Clemens 1st round 6.1
Oswalt 23rd round 6.1
Lackey 2nd round 5.9
P. Martinez Int. Signing 5.9
Pettite 22nd round 5.8
Smoltz 22nd round 5.3
B. Webb 8th round 5.3
AJ Burnett 8th round 5.1
Peavy 15th Round 5.1
2004

R. Johnson 2nd round 9.9
Sheets 1st round 8.0
J. Santana Int. Signing 7.7
Schilling 2nd round 7.3
J. Schmidt 8th round 6.6
Oswalt 23rd round 6.4
Clemens 1st round 6.0
P. Martinez Int. Signing 5.7
Radke 8th round 5.7
Hudson 6th round 5.2
F. Garcia Int. Signing 5.0
2003

Halladay 1st round 8.0
P. Martinez Int. Signing 7.9
Prior 1st round 7.6
Loaiza Int. Signing 7.2
J. Schmidt 8th round 6.7
Mussina 1st round 6.4
Hudson 6th round 6.3
J. Vazquez Int. Signing 6.0
K. Brown 1st round 6.0
Schilling 2nd round 5.9
Pettite 22nd round 5.5
2002

Schilling 2nd round 9.7
R. Johnson 2nd round 8.7
P. Martinez Int. Signing 8.3
Halladay 1st round 7.8
Oswalt 23rd round 6.6
D. Lowe 8th round 6.0
Hudson 6th round 5.3

 

Thirty-four of the 99 pitching seasons of five or more WAR were by pitchers selected in the first round of the amateur draft.  Seventeen of the 50 pitchers who had a 5+ WAR season were first round picks.  In both cases, that is slightly more than one third - a 34% chance that any given ace pitching performance over the course of the season will be by a pitcher selected in the first round of the amateur draft.  In addition, pitchers selected in the first round are more likely to have more than one 5+ WAR performance over the measured period.  And in every season measured, one of the three top performances has come from a pitcher selected in the first round, including the top four in 2009 and the top three in 2008.

This indicates that there may be a problem evaluating draft possibilities in a conventional return on investment model.  I do not doubt Wang's research; it is clear that you will get a better average return on investment from position prospects than from pitchers; they are less volatile and less prone to having a career WAR of zero.  But to the degree that ace pitchers are a required component of a playoff team, teams must acquire ace pitching to contend. 

Does having individual ace pitchers have a significant impact on playoff chances?  Of the eight playoff teams in 2009, five had at least one pitcher with a WAR of 5+, including both World Series teams.  In 2008 as well, five of eight teams were represented on the list, although none of the five made the World Series.  In 2007, four of the eight teams had a 5+ WAR pitcher.  Considering the scarcity of these aces, it certainly seems to have a substantial impact on a team's playoff chances (although we are dealing now with a very small sample size).

And the most likely source of the ace pitching of tomorrow is the first round of the amateur draft.  A first approximation from this angle suggests that teams take bigger risks selecting pitchers in the first round, but those risks are counterbalanced by significant upside.

This is hardly a definitive case for selecting pitching instead of hitting in the first round, or even for considering the two equal.  But it indicates that even if the club is not smarter than the average fan thinks, they aren't as foolish as some think either.

Comment 23 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Great article

James F — you rock. Really enjoying what you write. It’s hard to swallow, after several Adam Loewen-type experiences where #1 drafted pitchers come to nothing, but you do make it seem more reasonable.

It would also be interesting to mate this analysis with one of what it costs teams to buy Halladay, Santana, Sabathia type guys later. Something like, the cost of wasted investment may be X, but the cost of letting other franchises do this R&D for you is Y. Might make the practice seem even less foolish.

Has there ever been a cooler Oriole than Eddie Murray? I mean, just straight up cool. Like a bad, suave dude. You know what I'm sayin'. COOL. SC 7/24/08

by 33 on May 19, 2010 2:36 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Thanks!

There is a lot more that I want to do with this dataset, but it will all probably have to wait until after the draft, which is coming up fast. And one of those things would be a cost vs. risk comparison.

But one thing that I think has to be considered as well is scarcity. It isn’t just what it costs in terms of prospects and salary to acquire a Halladay or a Sabathia on the trade or free agent market, but a question of how seldom you even have the opportunity to acquire one that way. Lately, it seems like every free agent class is pretty light on impact talent. Even if we aren’t priced out of the market on Teixeira and Sabathia type players, we may find that there aren’t enough to go around.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on May 19, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Scarcity

Yep, right on. I was thinking more about my use of the R&D idea, and it seems drug research fits this case as an analogy. Why do drug companies burn so many resources developing compounds when the great majority will be ineffective? Because when you find one that really works, you’ll dominate the market in that class for a decade.

Has there ever been a cooler Oriole than Eddie Murray? I mean, just straight up cool. Like a bad, suave dude. You know what I'm sayin'. COOL. SC 7/24/08

by 33 on May 20, 2010 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

I feel like some of those non-first rounders should be tossed out as irrelevent flukes.

Peavy, Smoltz, Burnett, Oswalt all have absurd first round stuff – the only reason they weren’t first rounders has to be that they developed it later on which is pretty random.

Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck

by O'sFan21 on May 19, 2010 3:10 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't think they should be thrown out.

There are reasons that they weren’t picked in the first round, and reasons that they later developed their talent. I don’t think they’re irrelevant – rather, I’d say that they’re an important part of this study.

by SeanP on May 19, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

they have first round talent but they werent picked in the first round

it just shows that sometimes you can find first round talent in later rounds. It doesn’t happen often, but it happens.

by Strat12 on May 19, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure I think they're important to be aware of

I just don’t they are significant in looking at non-first rounders that dominate/dominated. They are much more random.

Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck

by O'sFan21 on May 19, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just offhand, it strikes me that the trade value of young minor league arms is greater than that of position players

Considering potential trade partners; every team is interested in acquiring pitchers but many teams may not be attracted to position prospects where they already feel solid at a position.

by snotboogie on May 19, 2010 4:48 PM EDT reply actions  

I haven't proved this...

….but generally I think that top prospects are all similar in value. Teams seem to know that prospects are fungible; even if you end up with a guy you can’t find a spot for, like the A’s with Brett Wallace, you can always flip that prospect for another team’s unneeded prospect, which they did with the Jays and Michael Taylor.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on May 19, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well that's not necessarily true.

Teams can’t always tell if they should move prospects. I think it’s similar to Brian Cashman’s talent for putting WAR on the major league level – Cashman has a knack for trading prospects for WAR, some other GM’s may have a knack for trading parts of their farm system for the necessary prospects. And I don’t think that all GM’s have that skills…

by SeanP on May 19, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again, anecdotally...

…I dunno how true this is.

When the Twins traded for Delmon Young, they moved Kubel to DH; when they had Carlos Gomez, they moved Span to right. When the Rangers dealt Tex, they had Michael Young, an All Star, at short, but they still happily took Andrus and when the time came, they moved Young to third. Teams rarely seem to have a real problem finding something to do with prospects, unless, like the Angels with middle infielders, they choose to. And when it came to cases, the Angels dealt Sean Rodriguez for Scott Kazmir.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on May 19, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

generally I think that top prospects are all similar in value.

I think position prospects are seen as more valuable than pitching prospects (at least in trade) because the latter, as you point out, are so volatile. For example, when the Twins traded Garza for Young, they had to throw in some extra value (Bartlett) in order to balance out the trade.

I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.

by birdman on May 19, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think this had as much to do...

…with both the feeling that Young was a higher ranked prospect (Young was drafted #1 overall, of course) as well as with the low value the Twins put on Bartlett. Even the year the Rays went to the series, he was considered a “good glove, no bat” kind of shortstop.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on May 19, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Garza was a top prospect as well and a first round pick. I think Young was widely considered that the better prospect but Garza had already established himself at the time of the trade (ERA+ 117 in 2007) whereas Young was coming a below average year (OPS+ 91).

I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.

by birdman on May 19, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Machado FTW.

"Amber has quick hands." ~ Joe Angel, 4/8/10

by Markickass on May 19, 2010 5:50 PM EDT reply actions  

With Pomeranz falling...

…Machado may well not be there.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on May 19, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

You think Machado may go 2nd overall?

"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower

by daveh873 on May 20, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep

I think that the Pirates would prefer a college arm, but it looks like there just isn’t one worth taking there. Which puts them on Machado, Taillon, Grandal, and Colon in my opinion. The O’s could well end up taking whichever of Machado or Taillon that the Pirates don’t.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on May 20, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well that kid's stock sure has risen...

I’d be pretty happy with either Taillon or Machado though. I think Taillon’s ceiling is pretty damn high, but I think Machado is a safer pick and it’s at a position of great need. Either way, i’m good.

"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower

by daveh873 on May 20, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

the answer is yes

his name is daniel cabrera.

"Being an Orioles fan is like having Erectile Dysfunction"
"harden the fuck up mike gonzalez."
The Signing Bonus: We're back in business.

by danielreese05 on May 19, 2010 7:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Well.. Using your picture in comparison

The argument the orioles had was a hitting prospect vs a pitching prospect that year. We got Billy Rowell, the giants got Lincecum.

……

by GeoffreyA on May 19, 2010 9:44 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Great work

I think part of the difficulty is in setting expectations. For my money there are really only a handful of aces in baseball…maybe 5 or so. So most teams don’t really have one. Consequently, the burnout rate is almost going to be high by definition, which is a slightly different variant on the idea of TINSTAAP.

It’s risk/reward…taking Jameson Taillion is a huge risk. But if he does follow the line of hard throwing Texans, than it could be worth it.

Librarians are hiding something

by dfa on May 20, 2010 1:06 AM EDT reply actions  

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