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Why the Orioles future is still brighter than the Expos

Tonight Stephen Strasburg is pitching and as I watch him dominate, I cant deny that if he stays healthy hes going to be a very special player.  However, unless Washington management finds a way to add talent around him he wont be pitching for a contender anytime soon.  In fact, I am still a firm believer that the Orioles, despite their miserable start this year, have a brighter future than the Nationals.

Star-divide

First of all, its important to consider just how much Strasburg can do for the franchise.  So i decided the best way to figure out that is by taking one of the best years from recent memory and assuming at Strasburg's peak he's that good.  I chose Pedro's insane '99 season where his FIP was 1.37 and WAR was 12.1 (not to mention thats the most that he, Lincecum, Halladay, Clemens or Randy Johnson ever produced).  What that means is that Strasburg would provide 12 wins above a AAAA player or the bottom level major leaguer.  So if you put him on a team of average major leaguers and he makes that team a 93 win team.  The problem with the Nats is that his teammates are not league average, they just aren't very good at all.  So if he puts up insane numbers like that blowing any pitcher in recent memory away, he will still need a league average team around him to equal the Phillies record for last year. 

Looking at the rest of the team, the same ones that won 59 games all of last year, I am unimpressed besides a few bright spots.  When you look at their young core it leaves something to be desired.  First of all there is Ryan Zimmerman, he is everything he appears to be, one of the top three third basemen in baseball.  After that their biggest name position player is Adam Dunn, however we have discussed him and his old player skills at nauseam so I'm not going to do it besides reiterate that players with his skill-set tend to "fall off a cliff" in their early 30's.  After those two players, the rest of the lineup looks terrible.  Their outfield consists of Nyjer Morgan, Rogearvin Bernadina, and Josh Willingham.  In case those names do not mean anything to you I'll summarize them for you, a fast guy who was expendable for the Pirates, a player with a minor league OPS of .733 (whom Sickels described as "An ideal fourth outfielder"), and a player having a career year at age 31.  Their infield consists Dunn, Adam Kennedy, Ian Desmond, Zimmerman, and Pudge.  Adam Kennedy is a 34 year old journeyman, Ian Desmond never drew rave reviews as a prospect and isn't looking like anything more than a fringe major leaguer and Pudge is 38.

So to recap, best case scenario, the impact hitters that may be around in 3 years are Zimmerman, Dunn and Willingham.  So even if you do think that Dunn's the exception to old player skills and Willingham is a late bloomer, that's a lot of holes in the lineup. The rotation is just as brutal.

Their rotation consists of their anointed one, John Lannan, Livan Hernandez, Luis Atilano and J.D. Martin.  J.D. Martin is a failed prospect from the Indians who is putting up 5th starter type numbers while giving up 1.78 HR/9.  He doesn't K a lot of batters but doesn't walk a lot.  Unfortunately hes not getting a ton a GB's either.  There is no reason to believe this soft-tosser is anything more than a 5th starter, if that.  Luis Atilano never showed up on prospect lists and is putting up an uninspiring ERA of close to 5.  Livan Hernandez isn't worth talking about because you can google "regression to the mean" yourself.  The most interesting arm outside of Strasburg in their rotation is Lannan.  He has put up good ERA's in two straight years but his BABIP has been unusually low and he's had a FIP of just under 5, heres a good link about that.  This year he's not doing so well, and to me that sounds like Guthrie and another 5th starter.  So nobody in the rotation outside of Strasburg is inspiring. (Drew Storen is a stud in the bullpen, but as a closer his impact is limited)

So with a weak lineup and rotation, their minor league system has to be good right?  Here is what Sickel's said before the year  "The Nationals system has an amazing talent in Strasburg, and I'm also very high on Norris, Storen, and Espinosa. After that, it fades quickly."  Also not inspiring considering they don't have much at the major league level.  Now I should note that they did add Harper and a very solid draft class, but they are all years away and its probably 3-5 years before you see any sort of impact from their draft class.

So why are improved this year?  Last year they were a 59 win team and their run differential was -164 so they were a terrible team and they got what they deserved.  This year, they have seen significantly improved contributions from Livan Hernandez, Josh Willingham, Ivan Rodreguez, and Ryan Zimmerman.  Zimmerman's are legit but the rest aren't.  Those career years have them at 5 games below .500 with Strasburg just now coming on the scene.  So will he live up to expectations, maybe, and even if he is the best we've seen, does it matter, unless something changes then no.  The Nationals don't have the talent around him to make it matter.

Finally, if you were to compare them to the Orioles its all in what you think of the Orioles young core of: Markakis, Jones, Wieters, Pie, Reimold, Matusz, Arrieta, Tillman, D. Hernandez and Roberts (well not so young for him).  I think that core beats Strasburg, Zimmerman, the promising young Jordan Zimmermann (Pitcher due to return from T.J. soon) and Dunn (also not so young) even with this years struggles.  I try not to get too encouraged from one year or too discouraged from one year.  Last year I tried to temper my expectations (apparently not enough), this year I'm not letting them get beat down too far.  There's still enough promise in that core to have hope.  Also, while the Nat's aren't in the AL East, they are in the NL East and have more teams to compete with for the wild card.  Their division is no slouch with the big budgets of the Mets, Phillies, a well run Atlanta team, and a feast or famine team in Florida.  Is it the AL East, no, but the Nationals will have to somehow find a lot more talent if they want to compete in that division.  On a side note, Amber beats Debbi Taylor any day, so we've got that going for us.

Stats obtained from Fangraphs and ESPN.

FanPosts are user-created content and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Camden Chat or SB Nation. They might, though.

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Well, Dunn and Livan are free agents after this year

They aren’t part of the Nats future. That said, they should get Jordan Zimmerman back from injury at some point soon.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jun 18, 2010 10:16 PM EDT reply actions  

shoot forgot about Zimmermann

Threw him in there

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 18, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea...zimmermann is very good

he had a rehab start the other day and was apparently very good. i’ve also heard that the nationals are looking to resign dunn. would be a good signing for them, although he MUST learn better defense at first base. he’s gotten much better, but still makes a lot of bad plays that cost them games, such as last night’s error on a slightly high throw that zimmerman made from his knees after a great stab behind third base.

I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck

by twistedlogic on Jun 19, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I included Dunn just so we dont have to debate him

If you have to play him in the field his bad defense and good offense tend to make him marginal. He wasnt pretty in the OF, but at 1B its just painful.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 20, 2010 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with most of what you say.

I’m not so sure about Desmond being a fringe major leaguer. His current wOBA is no great shakes, but there is a strong possibility of improvement there (mainly in walk rates), and I don’t think there’s any question that he’ll remain at shortstop. He’s already above average (1.2 WAR so far), and he has room for improvement.

So I’d say they have half an infield, half a starting rotation, and a closer. That leaves a lot of holes to fill, so they probably won’t contend next year, and yeah, this year is a mirage—and not even an impressive mirage. They’re just outperforming low expectations.

The Orioles, on the other hand, are cursed by the demon Andras, the grand marquis of Hell, who was called down upon them by Earl Weaver for giving him a losing season in 1986.

Andras, yes. Or was it Angelos?

"MONTANEZ: Alas! I cannot hit. Deal with it."
-Eat More Esskay

by flaggthecat on Jun 19, 2010 5:39 PM EDT reply actions  

expos?

that’s like people that call the ravens the browns. not cool.

I think overall we’re about even on the future track, b/c their best young player (zimmerman, ryan) is still better than ours (markakis, as much as i like him, does not produce like zimmerman), and their best young pitcher (strasburg) is still better than ours (matusz? arrietta? tillman?), plus they just got harper vs our machado. It really comes down to how much faith you have in adam jones, pie, reimold, and wieters to put us over the top.

one thing they’ve done far better, however, is fill in the gaps with quality free agents. that’s why they’re flirting with .500 and we’re flirting with the all-time worst mets.

by Luke E on Jun 19, 2010 6:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes Expos

They’ve only been in Washington for 5 ish years, so their recent history is still being shaped by their time in Canada.

Who would have guessed that Josh Willingham, Livan Hernandez and Ivan Rodreguez would be insane this year. I dont hold that against any team for not seeing that.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 20, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

still...

boo.

"If they pitch to you, make them pay."

--Diamond Dave to the Phenom

by j.q. higgins on Jun 20, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

nah dude they aren't the expos

the ravens havent been around long either. just because they havent been around long doesnt mean they’re the expos. plus their better young players were drafted as nationals and not expos. you guys all know i hate the nationals bashing around here. just makes us look bitter for not having a good team. we try wayyyyy too hard to make it look like we’re so much better, but they’ve been making some good moves as well. i love the potential we’ve got in guys like matusz, arrieta, wieters, and such, but they’ve got some good potential too.

I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck

by twistedlogic on Jun 20, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a Ravens fan

I dont really care when they are called the Browns, people seem to think its some great insult and just like calling the Nat’s the Expos it doesn’t mean a thing.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

i disagree

because people say it derisively to imply or even state that the team doesn’t belong where it is. and that’s hooie. that was the same implication i got from the beginning of this thread, and it’s petty nonsense, imo.

if the fans of a franchise want to embrace its history, or for that matter if anyone simply wants to acknowledge it, i’ve no problem with that. i’m not for revisionist history, but i’m not for revisionist present either.

by Luke E on Jun 21, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meh

People need to grow thicker skins, its a fact that the franchise used to be in Montreal, and it doesn’t mean a darn thing. These are all for-profit enterprises, not some extention of the city (even though cities may shell out far too much $$$ buying them a stadium).

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 22, 2010 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

how do you figure?

only one of their players was on the last expos team (livan hernandez), and he left and came back. this is a totally different team.

I’ll be honest, I don’t get the nats envy.

by Luke E on Jun 20, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

the last years in Canada they quit spending money on the team

So their farm system when they finally did move was a disastor, so they dont have much homegrown talent on their roster except those drafted in the last 5 years. So their time in Canada is still affecting the team in a big way.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

so essentially the orioles

who really dont have anybody decent in the farm system besides players drafted in the last 5-6 years

I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck

by twistedlogic on Jun 21, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea, minus the recent trades

Plus i think the move kept their draft budget low. So they didn’t really start shelling out money on the draft until the took Strasburg. So they are a couple of years behind us in theory.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 22, 2010 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

that's a reach

no worse off than an expansion team.

look, of course it’s “affecting” them — it’s only the 6th year since they left. but it’s minimal, since none of their players are holdovers from the expos. perhaps a couple were holdovers from the expo’s system, but if it was as bad as you say, maybe not.

move on already — that’s all i’m saying.

by Luke E on Jun 21, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

eh. I'm an Orioles fan and I wear a St. Louis Browns hat on the regular this year.

A beer vendor was like “YOU MUST BE A REAL A REAL BASEBALL FAN”

Also, if the Nationals ever made an alternate hat with the eMb logo flipped upside down, I’d buy that thing in a heartbeat. Which probably means never.

The stock market will never recover, our armies will never again be #1, and our children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives - HST

by the fix is in on Jun 21, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

actually...

at the o’s/nats game we went to at nats park, i saw some dude wearing a nats hat that had a red, cirly w, but the expos-style tricolor, three panel. it was pretty smooth.

"If they pitch to you, make them pay."

--Diamond Dave to the Phenom

by j.q. higgins on Jun 21, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Add these two...Hopefully

Add SS Manny Machado and 3B Anthony Rendon (likely #1 pick in next years draft ) to the list in a couple of years!! Go O’s!!!!! Who cares about Strasburo

by Brocksolid on Jun 19, 2010 6:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Debbi Taylor

talks to the camera like she’s talking to a five year old. Gets annoying.

Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words—"mank" and "ind". What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
-Jack Handey

by jobe on Jun 20, 2010 3:55 AM EDT reply actions  

I don't know what's up with her

I kind of feel bad bashing her, but she doesn’t have a television presence. Every time I see her, it looks like she’s on the verge of breaking out in tears. I think it’s because her voice kind of wavers like someone who’s nervous. I keep thinking she’s related to someone at masn and that’s how she got the job, which seems sexist, but then you take a look at Amber and she looks and acts like she was born to do television.

by PhilR8 on Jun 20, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's because Amber's been on TV for almost a decade

She started on-screen reporting right out of college, including Salisbury. Amber’s a seasoned pro at this point.

"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis

by duck on Jun 21, 2010 8:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

the 95 rivalry continues

I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.

by birdman on Jun 21, 2010 1:22 PM EDT reply actions  

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