Monday Bird Droppings
Recaps:
Orioles Insider: Showalter in on Wednesday; Wedge expected to get 2nd interview
"Buck Showalter will be in Wednesday to interview for the Orioles' managerial job. According to sources, former Cleveland Indians manager Eric Wedge is also expected to get a second interview with team officials." -duck
Moving Wieters to Triple-A not yet an option | orioles.com: News
"It's a day-to-day, series-to-series [decision] and we will see where he is, what decision is going to be made. But to me, he's a guy you got to play." So, Juan Samuel says they really haven't thought about it, but it's a day-to-day decision. Yup, these are our Orioles all right. -duck
The best thing for the 2011 Orioles is to get a new manager in the dugout now
Larry Carney of ABC news (who?) says what we've all known for a while: embarrassing plays on the field should be met with immediate consequences, and until a new manager is hired, the players will all feel safe. -zk
Orioles Insider: Decision time with Tillman
Zrebiec posits that 3E1N's Norfolk start tonight will determine whether it will be he or Chris Tillman who starts against the Nats on Saturday. -zk
Baltimore Bumbles Backwards - Murray Chass On Baseball
As noted in yesterday's Bird Droppings comments, Jim Palmer is supposedly not happy over the club's World Series 40th Anniversary luncheon. It's not a major matter, but another sign that, to some, this club can't get out of its own way. -duck
IN THE MINORS
Orioles Insider: Minor league game recaps- June 20
Norfolk lost, Bowie won, Frederick lost, Delmarva lost and Aberdeen won. -duck
Diaz says Orioles will hustle " Bluefield Daily Telegraph
"And that’s one of the important things — if you hustle, you will have a chance to win a game." Einar Diaz apparently wants some hustle out of his Bluefield Orioles. -duck
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Many who like Baltimore Orioles like this
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -- Earl Weaver
+1
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Monty Python's The Life of Brian springs to mind....
Always look on the bright side of life
Dee-doo dee-doot dee-doo dee-doot
by PBR me ASAP! on Jun 21, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
FORCA PORTUGAL!
One of my teams finally makes me happy.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
What are you, North Korean?
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Theres no more divey cheating team
this side of the Italians. And Ronaldo is a douchebeg. Theres no team i dislike more besides the Mexicans.
How about the Dutch, English or Spanish?
What has the tiny nation of Portugal ever done to deserve such bile?
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Producing Cristiano Ronaldo is pretty high on the list of things
Saying below he gets a yellow for ‘occasionally’ diving is like saying the Orioles are ‘occasionally’ bad at baseball.
He occasionally dives...
And regularly gets tackled hard (and dirty) as hell. Go back and check out the bs yellow he got in the Ivory Coast game.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
You dive as often as he does
and you’re just asking for the hard fouls. If he even tried to stay on his feet, he’d be the best in the world. Until then, he deserves every bit of his negative reputation
I read that the opposite way...
Scoring a lot leads to being fouled hard and dirty a lot, leads to taking advantage of that fact by occasionally diving.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
If you know someone's gonna go down if you even look on them at them harshly,
You might as well hit them as hard as you can to make sure they dont get past you.
That's how I see it.
Play the game with some integrity and you might receive fair treatment in return. Play like a douchebag pansy and you’ll get treated like one.
Insert something witty here.
by Knubles and Bits on Jun 21, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Score lots of goals and you get fouled hard
Foul a guy hard frequently enough, refs will know you’re going to foul him, so he can take advantage of it by flopping and getting the benefit of the doubt.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah
beings the WC is more interesting than the o’s, i didnt want to keep talking in here if it was annoying to others
It's UNSPORTSMANLIKE!
That is why he gets booked for it. It’s against the rules to dive and it’s part of the reason why soccer doesn’t catch on in the U.S. like it does in the rest of the world.
Insert something witty here.
by Knubles and Bits on Jun 21, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Meh.
Stars get star treatment in every sport. He doesn’t dive any more than Wayne Rooney. Seems to get more flack for it though.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, he also doesn't intentionally stomp on a prone guys junk ever...
maybe I conflated the two.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
True...the other aspect of this is (all but unrelatedly, btw)
That Europeans/South Americans just don’t care about flopping as much. The athlete as “tough guy who should be able to take a hit” thing seems to be all but exclusively American. The Divacs/Ginobilis/Varejaos, though very good players, took flopping to a whole new level in the NBA.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
well it is CLOSE to true
just not incredibly close. rooney is a tool as well
I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck
by twistedlogic on Jun 21, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
vasco da gama was a real shithead.
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on Jun 21, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
chuckle
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 22, 2010 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Ronaldo is a diva
thus i dislike the whole national team
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Ole'
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
there is a lot to be jealous of
But he just reminds me of the spoiled rich kid who deserves to be locked in a locker until he learns the world doesn’t revolve around him.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
But at the same time,
he works his ass off on and off the field, constantly deals with defenses keying their whole approach to him, and still puts up ridiculous numbers. The fact that he has an attitude is jarring, but it’s not like he’s a ball-hog or has any of the other on-field reflections of diva-ness other than the occasional yellow for diving or whining…which doesn’t set him apart from the vast majority of European strikers.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
he is outstanding
especially considering the special attention he draws from defenses, still, he’s a diva so as a fan i can dislike him
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Tolerate him is probably a better way to phrase it
I would want him on the team for sure, but that wouldn’t stop me from cursing him everytime he flops and eventually hurts the team with his antics.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
i have a feeling
it will be portugal vs. argentina in the semi’s – winner playing brazil. I am not buying a european team until they prove me wrong.
reminds me of Arrested Development
“Two tickets to Portugal…trying to flee to South America, Michael?”
Fire Garret Atkins.
was that gob?
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Among people, yes
I think that quote is specifically from Gob, but at least 2 or 3 people in the episode were under the impression that Portugal was in South America
Lots of other European teams that could go far
Netherlands have looked as good as anyone, and dont sleep on Serbia.
switzerland are no slouches.
nor are the germans, despite their loss to serbia
"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott
The Swiss just set the World Cup record
for most time without conceding a goal. 551 minutes.
Insert something witty here.
by Knubles and Bits on Jun 21, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
Oops. I’m rooting for Chile anyways. My girlfriend lived there for six months for her major in college.
Insert something witty here.
by Knubles and Bits on Jun 21, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
hahahaha
oh, SNAP
"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott
ask and ye shall receive

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott
Didn't you hear?
Portugal seperated from Europe and floated on over to S. America. They were tired of Spain always bullying them around just because they’re bigger.
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
Agreed.
As a Portugal fan I’m obligated to defend him.
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
by arlingtonOsFan on Jun 21, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Can I just
sigh…I feel like I’m trying to box a tidal wave here, but can I just say once more how stupid the Orioles are to put any significant weight at all to one start…especially in AAA? Bergsen is throwing against Lehigh Valley today, with its team slash-line of .251/.316/.381.
What exactly are we supposed to take from him potentially having one good game against a weak-ass lineup?I mean, what are we supposed to take away from it besides the fact that the Orioles clearly have almost no idea what they ought to do at this point and/or are terrified of being proactive, and so have to hope against hope that Fate makes the decision for them.
I swear to God, someday I’ll root for a real baseball team…
Fire Garret Atkins.
My guess is
that he doesn’t even do well against Lehigh Valley.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
i see what you are saying
Bergy has shown he can pitch in the majors (at least last year) and I think he should stay down until after the break (I think 3 more starts?). Tillman has shown he can dominate AAA and suck at the ML level. I have no idea what to make of him other than let him figure it out in the ML like they did with Berken and Hernandez last year. It will probably be brutal but really does it matter?
It matters to me in the sense that
the way they are making decisions and jerking their young pitchers around now does not make me confident in their ability to do more complicated things like build a winning roster.
This isn’t that hard: if you want Tillman to go down, send Tillman down. Meanwhile, you sent Bergesen down because he was awful. Let him sit down there for a while. At least more than one or two starts. The fifth starter does NOT need to be one or t’other, and that they seem to think it does despite there being a couple of reasonable alternatives (Hendo, Gabino) just reeks of…I don’t know what…bad front officing?
Fire Garret Atkins.
Although to be fair
I don’t think any organizations are particularly good at dealing with prospects that are dominating at AAA but sucking at the major league level. I’m talking about Tillman’s case of course. It’s a frustrating situation without any clear solutions, especially when you really “need” him at the ML level.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
I was in the process of typing something like this, but longer:
This isn’t that hard: if you want Tillman to go down, send Tillman down. Meanwhile, you sent Bergesen down because he was awful. Let him sit down there for a while. At least more than one or two starts.
Exactly. I can even understand wanting two of Tillman/Bergesen/Arrieta up here so that we’re not dipping into relievers or Gabino. But why can’t they just leave Bergy down for a month until they’re sure he’s got his sinker back? Why can’t they send Tillman back down to figure out why the heck he’s throwing a 91 mph straight-as-an-arrow fastball? This “let’s give them one or two starts in AAA to fix themselves” stuff is just silly.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -- Earl Weaver
Just wondering . . .
PitchFx says Tillman’s fastball is moving plenty: -3.2 horizontally, 11.9 vertically. Am I reading this wrong?
"MONTANEZ: Alas! I cannot hit. Deal with it."
-Eat More Esskay
I think.
I’m not an expert on it, but higher vertical numbers mean a lack of sink (they call it “rise”, but that’s physically impossible, and all that). That’s not necessarily a bad thing on a four-seamer, of course.
But the horizontal movement isn’t good, especially since last year, it moved 50% more (-4.8). Compare that to our other righties this year: Millwood’s at -6.3, and Guthrie’s at -7.3. And just watching the games seems to verify this; it just comes in straight every time.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -- Earl Weaver
Ah, okay.
I’m still learning how to analyze pitchers more deeply than just looking at their peripherals. I was just doing a quick comparison to other pitchers who don’t have overpowering speed but are said to have good fastballs, and this is what I saw: C.C. Sabathia (3.8 horizontal, 9.2 vertical), Felix Hernandez (-2.1, 9.4), and Zach Greinke (-4.3, 10.7). But they all average faster than 91, and interestingly, all of them have decreased movement this year.
"MONTANEZ: Alas! I cannot hit. Deal with it."
-Eat More Esskay
Yeah, it's confusing to try to translate the numbers into a mental image.
A couple of things to keep in mind: on four-seam fastballs, it seems that for righties, the more negative the number, the greater the horizontal movement; for lefties, a bigger positive number is better. Two-seam fastballs should have even more horizontal movement than four-seamers, and they should have a significantly smaller number for vertical movement (even though it’s still positive, that indicates sink).
And the way that Pitch F/X classifies pitches can be questionable. From what I recall, last year, a lot of Bergesen’s two-seamers which didn’t move as much were labeled four-seamers, and a lot of his slower sliders were labeled curves (even though I’m pretty sure he doesn’t throw a curve). That sort of stuff is very common, since (as far as I know) they don’t make any pitcher-specific adjustments to the pitch-type-determining algorithm. Sometimes it’s really helpful to look at the game charts on FanGraphs to get a better idea of what pitches are being called.
But, for the record, take everything I have to say about Pitch F/X with a very large grain of salt, because most of what I think I know is just inferred from looking at different pitchers’ data and comparing that to what I see when they pitch.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -- Earl Weaver
FWIW
Who cares if we jerk Bergy around?
Bergesen isn’t a prospect. He’s not someone who anyone (besides the Orioles’ publicity corps) believes is going to be even a mid-rotation arm in the long run. The bullshit with Tillman is irksome. I don’t really care very much anymore what they do with Bergy.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Yet again, the voice of reason
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm with you
I’ve lost 90% of my faith in Bergesen’s ability to consistently do what he did last year (if he could, he’d be useful, but I suspect that he can’t). He can get jerked around all they fucking want, I guess. But it’s the underlying concepts, which reminds me of spring training. I didn’t have a problem with the O’s bringing DH up and leaving Tillman in Norfolk at all – I had a problem with them saying they were doing it because Hernandez had a terrific 2 or 3 spring training starts while Tillman had a mediocre 2 ro 3 spring training starts. As if those small sample sizes could mean any less.
This team worships at the altar of the small sample size, and that is what is bothering me. Oh, 3E1N had one good game against Lehigh Valley? He must be cured! Bring him back up!
Fire Garret Atkins.
Well, yes
No one can say that the Orioles have a working internal process. We consistently bat either Scorey or b2b leadoff. We had perhaps the worst offseason in franchise history. We are 19-50 and we have regular debates about who the closer should be.
And we make idiotic decisions based on small sample size at best and nothing at all at worst.
We ride the short bus.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
To be fair (at least partially)
If we HAD found a closer that could have closed our games out (all the ones we’ve blown) we’d be 31-38 instead of 19-50. Then we’d be tied for the 9th worst record in baseball instead of being the absolute worst.
Not that it really matters nor that finding a closer matters at all now. Just a reminder of how bad our “closers” have been.
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
Have we had 12 games blown in the ninth?
It’s been awful, but I don’t think there have been that many. The “blown saves” statistic doesn’t just refer to the ninth inning, from what I recall.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -- Earl Weaver
How bad the back end of our bullpen is
Gonzalez and JJ blowing up is as much the culprit here as any other factor
Let's see...
Gonzalez blew two in the ninth, DH blew one, Simon blew one, Ohman blew one (which we won anyway), and Jim Johnson blew one. So that’s five ninth-inning blow saves and losses.
Hendrickson (1), Albers (2), Meredith (1), and Johnson (2) had the others. It just goes to show you how important the bullpen is (and not just the backend). We should really look into dumping a ton of money into it to shore it up next offseason.
Fire Garret Atkins.
"We should really look into dumping a ton of money into it to shore it up next offseason."
Is this sarcasm or do you really think the bullpen is the place we should be spending a considerable amount of money on? I’m not trying to be an ass, just curious. Most people are against big signings in the bullpen.
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
Yeah, because that strategy worked SO WELL in 2007, '08, '09, '10....
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
What's the prize for being 9th worst?
We need better, younger players, including in the bullpen, to be sure. Looking at our wins and losses is part of what is wrong with our front office.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Nothing
Like I said, it doesn’t matter at all. That said, I think it is their business to win as many games as possible while also building for the future. As much as we cherish the draft position, they can’t really just tank the season on purpose after 25 games.
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
I agree about not tanking
But I don’t think measuring success in wins and losses is right either.
We should be measuring our success based on stuff like FIP and OPS+. If we win or lose fluke games it doesn’t matter.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
I think Bergesen should be given the rest of 2010 to figure out ML batters.
He’s better than Daniel Cabrera. Bergesen pitched great last year, over his head probably, had a nasty freak injury and then the Orioles injured him in the winter.
He needs to relax. Just call him up and tell him to chill.
The stock market will never recover, our armies will never again be #1, and our children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives - HST
by the fix is in on Jun 21, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you're overlooking the fact that his stuff just isn't very good.
Tons of pitchers have had a great 20 starts (which is all he had last year) and have never been good again. Guys that are right handed and don’t throw 90+ just don’t stick that often in the majors. There’s a reason you almost have to be throwing 90+ as a righty to get drafted (no matter how much I used to wish that wasn’t the case).
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
Why treat Tillman any different?
I think they’re both being jerked around. Bergy showed, for six weeks or so, the ability to get out MLB players. Tillman hasn’t. Just because Tillman impressed some scout 3 years ago in HS doesn’t mean he’s more likely to be a better MLB pitcher than Bergy.
Leave Bergy at Norfolk for at least another month, and send Tillman down with him. Let them BOT get their shit straight. Why are we treating Bergy like some used napkin? Kid has had a limited amount of success in the MLB. MAYBE, just maybe, it can be duplicated.
Tillman ain’t shown me shit.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Just because Tillman impressed some scout 3 years ago in HS doesn’t mean he’s more likely to be a better MLB pitcher than Bergy.
He’s impressed EVERY scout who’s ever seen him. He was on every top prospect list made over the last 2 years. Bergesen? Not even close.
Obviously Tillman ain’t shown you shit, but neither has any other prospect that hasn’t done it at the major league level yet. That’s why they’re prospects.
Tillman is only 22 and an actual prospect – Bergesen is older and not a prospect. I don’t have any problem with treating them differently.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
So we treat like shit the kid who's actually WON at the MLB level
and coddle the hot shot who hasn’t done shit at the the MLB level? That will certainly help the clubhouse mood. Doesn’t matter if you’ve done ANYTHING, if you’re a “prospect”, you get different rules. When the hell do RESULTS fucking matter?
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Yes. If the kid who’s actually WON at the ML level shows very little evidence of being able to repeat that, sure we jerk him around more than the guy who has the potential to be a long-term solution. Results matter when they are repeatable – not when they are aberrations.
As far as it helping the clubhouse, every player in that clubhouse knows that Bergesen was pushing his luck at the ML level and every player in the clubhouse knows that Tillman is an actual prospect. They understand this situation just fine.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
personally
i don’t think you should jerk anybody around. If a guy isn’t getting it done, send him out (I’m lokoing at YOU, Garret Atkins!). If he’s proven something worth bringing him back, bring him back. Yes, those two thresholds vary with the context of the player, but this bullshit with Bergesen is ridiculous:
a coupe of bad games, sent down, one good game, sent up, a bunch of bad games mixed with a good game or two and some mediocre games, sent down, one bad game and one (potentially) good game? Send him back up! Two weeks later after a bunch of bad games he’ll get sent back down again, then stay down until he makes one decent start and back up he comes.
I don’t even care about player’s psyches or whatever…that’s just the wrong way to do it.
Fire Garret Atkins.
Ehhh
Agree generally that it’s not a recipe for success – I just don’t care that much because I don’t see him having much success regardless.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
again
this isn’t a complaint about brad bergesen. It’s a complaint about the Orioles’ process, and how much it fucking sucks.
Fire Garret Atkins.
Well I don’t particularly like the alternatives either – starting Hendo? Starting DH again? STarting Tillman? Starting some random AAA dude? I’d prefer screwing with Bergy slightly to any of those.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
Starting Tillman isn't an option
And I’d rather screw over Hendo than Bergy. We KNOW what Hendo’s ceiling is.
DH stays in teh ‘pen. I think it was a mistake to yank the closer’s job from him. He should have kept it. One bad appearance and you lose your slot? There’s a way to build a kid’s confidence.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Agree on DH
I mostly don’t want to start Hendo because it’s almost a guaranteed loss and a bullpen drain for the day. Then he’s unusable for 4 days out of the bullpen, so it really screws things up with the relief picture for almost a week. Starting Bergy creates no such problem.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
See, that's another good example
one bad time out and back to middle relief for you, kid. You’re just not closer material, I guess. You’re not ready. Don’t you know that closers are supposed to walk at least a batter per inning?
Fire Garret Atkins.
read the blurb
Starting Tillman isn’t an option
starting Tillman is the current alternative, per Zrebiec.
"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott
OK, starting Tillman should not be an option.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
by duck on Jun 21, 2010 8:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree wholeheartedly.
Give the kid a chance to get his head on straight and have some confidence down at AA and fix whatever’s wrong with his motion and show consistency over five or so games.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
How are we so certain Bergy can't duplicate his success?
His problem this year is leaving pitches up. When he throws down, he gets people out. Give him 2 months at AAA to work on keeping the ball down in the zone. It’s a mechanical problem he has now, not a lack of tools. If he can get that sinker to sink again, he could be good. The odds are against it, but it’s worth giving him the best available situation in which to improve – extended time in AAA. He’s not costing anyone a spot down there.
Why NOT give Bergesen a chance to improve at AAA instead of using him as bullpen fodder up here? He definitely will NOT improve in Baltimore. Why throw away a chance at a pitcher who could develop into a solid #5 for us? I don’t understand what the opportunity cost is, and why we’re so quick to just throw him aside and baby and coddle other pitchers who have never shown they can consistently throw strikes at a MLB level. This isn’t AAU basketball – play the players that are getting it done, not just the “future stars.”
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Eh
I didn’t think it had much to do with leaving pitches up – I thought it had more to do with not having much on his pitches and not having much in the way of an offspeed pitch to work with his sinker. Who says it’s a mechanical problem? I haven’t seen anything saying that.
If giving him a few random starts at the major league level is “throwing away a chance at a pitcher who could develop into a solid #5”, then the chances of that happening are pretty damn flimsy.
And if we’re going by your “play the players that are getting it done” Bergy would be nowhere near the rotation regardless.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
You're right, he wouldn't be
but neither would Chris Tillman.
And when Bergy was hit hard, he was leaving pitches up. That’s mechanics. He’s doing SOMETHING different if the ball was consistently down in the zone last year and it’s up this year.
I don’t want Bergy on the MLB team now. I want him in AAA working on his delivery every 5 days for the next two months.
I just happen to think Tillman could use the same treatment.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
I thought he was making very similar pitches to last year and batters were taking balls that they previously swung at and crushing balls that they previously missed or miss-hit. I didn’t think he was making a ton of mistakes – just that hitters knew what they were going to get (that’s what happens with sinker ballers without good offspeed pitchers) and his sinker just wasn’t good enough.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
Vaguely recalling
Palmer saying his ball was up, and I don’t remember he getting crushed on balls low in the zone. I maybe completely wrong on this, but I recall a bunch of belt high strikes from him. He can’t do that. He’s got to be at the top of the kneecap. If he can do that again, he can be successful.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
I don't really know either
and am too lazy to do any serious research, but I really thought he looked pretty similar to last year. Last year I felt like guys were swinging at balls constantly and this year it seems like guys were taking them and forcing him to throw it in the zone. And with his stuff you’re right he has to be perfect right at the top of the kneecap – that’s a pretty slim margin for error.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
There's a movement issue, too.
In that start against the Twins (when he threw literally about 90% sinkers), it had great movement on it. He usually had at least decent movement on it last year, but he’s only had one or two starts this year with good movement and command, and the difference has been stark.
Of course, that arguably makes the margin for error even slimmer.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -- Earl Weaver
I’m not really sure I see much of a difference in movement this year. I think people are jumping to conclusions – if he’s getting hit the ball MUST be up and flat.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
I dunno.
That one start against the Twins really stuck out for me, and the Pitch F/X data agreed.
For the record, I like him, but I’m not trying to say that he can be something close to his 2009 version long-term. He got lucky last year, and he’s arguably been a bit unlucky this year (there was something on ESPN’s TMI blog about it a while ago), but a lot of it is indeed his lack of stuff catching up to him. That said, I do think he can be better than he’s been so far this year.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -- Earl Weaver
Oh certainly
he can better than he’s been this year.
I’ll have to check out the pitchfx data eventually.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
Because he had an xFIP a full run worse than his ERA?
That said, I’m not for throwing away a potential solid back end starter, which Bergy could be.
I’m also, however, not for going crazy over the fate of a guy whose upside is back end starter. I’m fine with leaving him in AAA, DFAing Mata and promoting Gabino. Or, as I have said numerous times, moving Berken or DH back into the rotation.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Actually, I think that's pretty much what the O's should do, too.
I just think Tillman also needs to come out of the rotation. Not sure if bullpen or AAA would be a better move (I’d say AAA to keep him on a starting rotation), but he needs to not be in the O’s rotation right now.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
I'm confused
Isn’t Tillman not in the rotation right now? I thought they pulled him after his last start.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
He's not in the rotation right now
I guess we’re debating whether he should start next Saturday or something. I’d prefer he didn’t, but then again, I don’t watch his bullpen sessions or work as a pitching coach. But particularly with him missing his side work due to illness, I think he needs to do something before starting in the majors.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
I like the idea of him in the bullpen for a year
But then people will clamor that we need him as our closer
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd say not as much as knowing how to play the damn game
What good does a plus arm do if you’re throwing to the wrong damn base or can’t draw a walk? Adam Jones is the poster child for everything that’s wrong with “toolsy” players on this team. Until he LEARNS the strike zone and how to play defense, he’s the outfield equivalent of Daniel Cabrera.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Eh. You need both to succeed
Should we have a team of David Ecksteins who can’t actually do shit but play the game the right way?
Jones might someday learn the zone and how to play defense, and be a star. Someone like Matt Angle or Ronnie Welty knows the zone and how to play defense, but will never ever be able to get around on a 95 mph fastball or crush a hanging breaking ball. You can’t succeed at this level without tools unless you are Jamie Moyer – a one in a million type player. There are lots of guys who are 5’9 and who are awesome at basketball. They aren’t in the NBA.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
I still think Ronnie Welty will surprise you
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
And right now...
I’d take a team of David Ecksteins in a HEARTBEAT over this collection of reclamation projects and failed projects.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
worst fielding team ever!
though it is worth noting that Eckstein is outhitting the Orioles by about 15 points of OPS…but without any room for improvement.
Fire Garret Atkins.
That team might be easier to watch
But it would be a team without any hope for the future. Not that ours looks so bright, but still.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
It would be less frustrating to a degree
to lose due to lack of talent than lack of a fucking clue about the game, but you’re right, we wouldn’t win the PAC-10 with a team full of David Ecksteins.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
few things
You cannot send both down to AAA. Tillman no longer needs to pitch in AAA unless he is injured. If he can’t throw a fastball to ML hitters – than he is a bust. Bergy showed that he can pitch to ML hitters and get them out. If he can no longer do his job then get rid of him. neither of these guys need their balls coddled anymore. Do your job.
Tillman is the third youngest starter in the majors
I think we’re all going to extremes with him right now.
I’m pretty clueless how to run a baseball team, to be sure. But I’d suggest actually using Tillman in the ML bullpen for a while. He needs to work on getting major league hitters out with his fastball, and I think that’s the place for him to do it. Let him gain confidence and experience getting major league hitters out with a bit of added velocity and his curve, and move him back into the rotation late in the year when he’s mastered it.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Oh, look
Chass got a quote from Nestor. What a shocker.
"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott
Newest reason to compare us to the 07' Rays
Their 2B was Ty Wigginton, who was in his second year of service for the team, and they traded him at the deadline.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 11:10 AM EDT reply actions
going to the game on tuesday
anyone else going to be there?
It’s the Ric Flair Theory of baseball – To be the man, you gotta beat the man. -duck
by Parkinglotninja on Jun 21, 2010 11:47 AM EDT reply actions
Why not?
He’s lost. Give him a battle plan. Dude’s clueless at the plate right now. He needs help, and he’s not getting it here.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
because he has to learn to hit ML pitching not AAA pitching
He’ll go to AAA, rip apart those pitchers, came back up none the wiser.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
Right now...
I trust our MiLB coaches more to help him than I do our MLB coaches.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Then the problem is the MLB staff
You can’t put ppl in the minors cause your ML staff sucks. You need to fire the ML staff. That’s a bad argument.
He's better than any other player we have now
And didn’t just have a great game yesterday. Is our management really that stupid?
Bringing Baltimore Beatdown "Create a Caption" for 10 weeks and counting.
by Zachary Beard on Jun 21, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Tillman/Bergesen: My 2 cents
I would send both of them to AAA for an extended stay. T needs to learn to throw the cutter in a minor league environment. B needs to get his sink back. This up and down/ to the bullpen and back business is chaotic.
I think Tillman should abandon the cutter
I’ve yet to see him throw a good one and it seems to have sapped his fastball velocity.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
You may be right
My thinking is that Tillman throws a straight FB in the low 90s, meaning he must have excellent location to be effective. A cutter has movement, giving him more margin for error. I had not considered the possibility that throwing the cutter was sapping his velocity. If he has been throwing the cutter, it isn’t cutting.
Before he started screwing around with the cutter
his fastball was in the mid-90s and I don’t remember it looking so straight either. Regardless, he’s gotta figure something out because his shit aint working right now.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
“We haven’t even thought about it,” Baltimore’s skipper said. “[The coaching staff] just leaves that to the people that make the decision, when they feel it is the time to do something. But it has not been discussed at all.”
I like how reporters makes news out of inaction.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
It's only news
because he stuck that throwaway “it’s day-to-day, series-to-series” nonsense at the end that I don’t believe he meant for a second.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
almost every player is day-to-day, series-to-series
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
ha!
to wit, the natinals: yesterday, the manager said lannan was still in the rotation, today the gm sends him to AA.
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on Jun 21, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh oh.
From Britt’s Twitter feed:
Arrieta questioned the pitch selection to Venable on the HR. Wieters said the choice was fine but called the location “not great.”
Let the drama begin! (Or is that continue?)
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -- Earl Weaver
oh great, twitter sniping between teammates via a third party.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
What about the rest of the shitty ass pitches he threw yesterday?
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
Let him whine
I haven’t seen an issue with Wieters game calling all year. I think someone linked the difference in Opps BA/OBP vs when someone else catches.
Newsflash Jake, a little more pitching little less bitching please…
Injury update:
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/orioles/blog/2010/06/injured_os_and_timelines.html
Pie should be in Frederick on Thursday or Friday night, huh? I may have to head down earlier than I was planning and catch the Friday game…
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -- Earl Weaver
So
Atkins is still here huh.
Bring back Andino.
by WestcoastO'sFan on Jun 21, 2010 3:34 PM EDT reply actions
The day's still young
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Jake Fox will be a free agent on Wednesday
if the A’s don’t pass him through waivers.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
Fuck Jake Fox
Blue Jays just designated Edwin Encarnacion for assignment.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
I'd take Encarnacion over Fox too.
But he’s a butcher in the field as well.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
Sure
But I wouldn’t play him at third. Let him play first and DH.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
I'm up for that
As long as it doesn’t come with a fatkins type contract
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe he had a wrist injury all of last year
Who knows why he isn’t producing this year, but he is > B2B easily
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
We couldn't do that to Gary Thorne
Make him say “Arncanacion” every game? That’s just cruel.
Baltimore is Baltimore. That's kind of what I know. - Manny Machado, 6/7/10
by Eat More Esskay on Jun 21, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
surfartay...
wiggington…
"If they pitch to you, make them pay."
--Diamond Dave to the Phenom
by j.q. higgins on Jun 21, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Blue Jays just designated Edwin Encarnacion for assignment.
Actually, he wasn’t. He was optioned to AAA.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
Their official twitter feed
Says different. Weird.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
I'd assume he has some trade value
Unlike Fox, I doubt we’ll just get him off waivers. This is one of the key pieces in the Rolen deal, after all.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
The Toronto Star is reporting that he was DFAed. In the end, it doesn’t matter for us. I have mad DFA rules knowledge now and the Jays will pass him through waivers and nobody will claim him because of his contract. Once he clears waivers, the Jays will send him to AAA because he hasn’t accumulated enough service time to decline being sent there.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
I'd claim his contract
The chance to add that kind of talent for free? Sign me up.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
he has about $2.3M left on his contract
If we claim him on waivers, the Jay have the option of dumping his contract on us. Screw that.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
Why?
Wouldn’t we pay $2.3M to get a player of his talent with years of team control left?
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
There is no way in hell he’s worth that type of money. He’s finishing up a two year contract for $4.7M this year. I believe he’s a free agent after the season (this is his 6th season). At best, we might have another year of control. If we have another year of control, he’s going to cost $6 to $7M via arbitration. He’s been a half of win above replacement level this year. We could certainly lose 100 games with w/o him this year. And his value next year is not commensurate with his pay. And not even close… if he’s a 1 WAR player, there’s no way that’s worth $7M.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
He's arb eligible after this season
and then he’s a free agent. So that’s about $9.5M for season and half of crappy defense and decent bat. No thank you.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
I suppose that's true
I didn’t realize he was so close to FA.
Oh well. Jake Fox it is.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Theres only 3 games on tonight, and none of them are really interesting
I understand monday and thursday are your usual offdays, but couldnt they schedule it so the whole league doesnt have off at once?
Hobgood
The silver lining to this terrible year is “winning” the first round draft pick next year. This prompted me to look up two of my least favorite first round Os pick: Rowell and Hobgood. Billie is now hitting below .240 in his third year at Frederick. According to MASN “Hobgood is 3-6, 4.48 in 12 starts for Delmarva. Over 64 1/3 innings, he has allowed 63 hits with 30 walks, 42 strikeouts and a .261 batting average against.”
Can anyone tell me whether, for a first year player drafted out of HS, a 4.48 ERA is as bad as it seems. Rowell makes me depressed, and the thought that Hobgood is another bust might put me over the edge.
I don't care that much about the ERA
but those walks and k’s sure suck shit.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
You should forget about Rowell ASAP
Life will get better. Also, so far Hobgood isn’t looking great compared to Matzek (the “consensus BPA”). Its early though, so maybe that changes, and Matzek has walked 16 guys in addition to his 27 k in 23.2 IP. But like O’sFan21 said, the K’s and walks aren’t good. Especially K’s, since young players walk a lot of people, the K’s tells you that he might not be fooling too many A ball pitchers.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 21, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Zach Wheeler
was the another big prep arm available. He ain’t doing so good (ERA 5.06 in the Sally League same as Matzek).
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
Jacob Turner was higher ranked than Wheeler
The prep pitching top 5 rankings were:
Matzek
Turner
Wheeler
Matt Purke
Shelby Miller
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Jacob Turner: 3.61 ERA, (50 SO/9 BB), 54 IPs. Midwest A Ball
Shelby Miler: 4.79 ERA, (56 SO/15 BB), 44.1 IPs. Midwest A Ball
Can’t find anything on Purke.
So far, I wish we would have taken Matzek.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
Purke is at TCU
Looked nasty for college the times I’ve seen him pitch in the CWS so far this year. He wasn’t blowing up the radar gun (sitting around 90), but good control and pretty tough arm angle for a lefty.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
Purke could end up being the #1 overall next year
He looked great in the CWS first game too.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
I don't see it
BA rates Rendon higher than Harper. Rendon fits what we need
it's eaaaaaaaaaaarly
Purke, Cole, Rendon are all on my radar (and Rendon is, yes, the front-runner)
Fire Garret Atkins.
Not saying you are wrong...
but it seems you tend to like pitching prospects a bit more than positional ones overall. Am I right in thinking that?
"things like locig and prrofreading are actually valued here" - zknower
No, I don't think so
In fact, I generally think that I think the opposite.
That said, I think the O’s like pitching prospects more than hitting prospects, and I think that any team with the #1 pick could theoretically fall in love with Cole, Purke, or Gray.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
The Rowell dislike
Comes mostly from the fact that Lincecum was drafted right AFTER him, right? Also with the fact that he doesn’t seem to be doing much? That draft where we picked Loewen over Greinke, Fielder, Francis, Hamels, Kazmir, etc etc etc etc tends to make me sadder.
Lincecum is doesnt help
but the Rowell dislike comes mostly from the fact that he sucks at baseball.
Silly Question
but has there been an Os all-suck team? The qualifier being that they had to have had a ton of promise/talent, no delivery?
There'd be a historic battle for team captain.
Between Sir Sydney, Daniel Cabrera, Adam Loewen, Matt Riley, etc.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
That's not fair to Riley
He was way overused and had 2 TJ surgeries by like age 22 I think.
Eh
still fits the bill of ton of promise/talent and no delivery. Plus he had a license plate that said 24ktarm.
Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck
Sally is slightly more of a hitters' league this year than the Midwest
based on team batting stats, but those are still some ugly numbers.
Only Tony Butler (since released) has given up more walks for DEL than Hobgood. Four other pitchers have more K’s and only one of those has pitched more innings than Hobgood. He even leads the team in HBP. Damn, that’s a rough start to a career.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Even in this crappy season, I get bummed by off days.
No baseball to follow involving a team I care about, no matter how much they suck. The night just feels a bit empty.
Baltimore is Baltimore. That's kind of what I know. - Manny Machado, 6/7/10
by Eat More Esskay on Jun 21, 2010 6:22 PM EDT reply actions
I was looking forward to it
until I saw there was only 3 games on. I was gonna pick a random interesting game to watch, but they’re all really unappealing to me.
Fun with O's WAR
The O’s the only team in the AL with a negative WAR, we’re -0.3. Only the Pirates and the Astros have a worse team WAR.
Atkins also has the 12th worse WAR among the guys listed, and Montanez has the 25th worse WAR (deal with that) on B-R.com. B-Rob also has an negative WAR despite playing in only 4 games this year.
Nicky and Luke are tied for first on the team in WAR, with 1.
"There's rock bottom, 50 feet of crap, then the Orioles."-Stacey
by BaltimoreSportsFan on Jun 21, 2010 9:03 PM EDT reply actions
I don't know if anyone cares, but . . .
the Royals/Nationals game is really funny. To me, anyway. Livan Hernandez, he of the 5.17 xFIP, 2.94 ERA (and 81.2% strand rate) has pulled another seven solid innings out of his ass, giving up only 1 run despite allowing 9 baserunners.
"MONTANEZ: Alas! I cannot hit. Deal with it."
-Eat More Esskay

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