What Can We Hope To Get For Millwood and Wigginton?
As we approach the midway point of the season, the Orioles are, as we all know, the worst team in baseball by a considerable margin. Therefore, the Orioles should be sellers as the trade deadline approaches. Two of the current Orioles most likely to be moved are Kevin Millwood and Ty Wigginton, both of whom are in the last year of their current contracts and who are having successful, if unspectacular seasons and have drawn interest from a number of contenders.
But Andy MacPhail has already made it clear that the Orioles will not make trades simply to shed payroll. Certainly, we cannot know how truthful that statement is. But it suggests that the Orioles will be willing to pay some of the millions remaining on the contracts of Millwood and Wigginton in order to get a better return, and will not be trading either of them for the dreaded "player to be named later or cash". But what kind of return can we expect, and who are some of the names out there that should interest us?
The teams who have been linked in trade rumors to either Millwood or Wigginton are the Mets, Cardinals, Rockies, Yankees, and Twins. None of these teams are likely to surrender a blue chip prospect for either Millwood or Wiggy (well, the Cards might), and the Yankees are a bad match, but the others have interesting prospects who could end up with the Orioles.
Mets:
RHP Jeurys Familia - Familia has a fastball. A big one, sitting at 92-94 and topping out at 96 in spring training this year. He compliments it with a power slurve and a below average changeup. After a strong performance in the Sally League in 2009 and an increase in velocity to fit his ideal pitcher's frame, a lot of people were expecting big things from Familia this season. Alas for the Mets, it hasn't worked out that way so far, with Familia putting up a 6.16 ERA in eleven starts as a 20 year old in the Florida State League. His main problem has been control; his BB/9 has nearly doubled from 2009 to 5.8.
But there remains a lot of promise in Familia's arm. Despite a rough season so far, he has actually improved at missing bats, striking out 8.9 batters per nine innings. He's also continued to do a good job at keeping the ball down, with a GB% of 54%. This also helps him keep the ball in the park, and he has never allowed more than 0.5 HR/9. His control problems have his stock down some, but Familia could break out in a big way if he finds the zone with more consistency, and if not could still be a strong arm in the bullpen.
CF Kirk Nieuwenhuis - Nieuwenhuis, the Mets third round pick in 2008 out of Azusa Pacific, made a name for himself after a strong 2009 campaign in the FSL as a 21 year old, hitting 16 homers and delivering an OPS of .824 while playing an average center field. His 2010 campaign hasn't been quite as successful. While his batting average has improved marginally and his power has remained constant, his control of the strike zone, never his strongest suit to begin with, has taken a step backward. So far, he has only 15 walks in 273 plate appearances and 60 strikeouts.
Nieuwenhuis does boast a pretty impressive collection of tools, however. He doesn't have plus range in center, but he has a strong arm, notching nine assists in 2009 and sporting five already this season. He has good speed and basestealing ability, and has stolen eleven bases so far this year while being caught only three times. He makes strong contact with the bat, and has plus gap power to go with 20 home run power. He'll have to gain better mastery of the zone in order to make those tools work at the major league level, but as a 22 year old in AA and in only his second full professional season, he has plenty of time to figure it out.
Cardinals:
SS Tyler Greene - Greene, a first round pick in 2005, is past prospect age at 26. This is the main reason the O's stand a chance of obtaining a shortstop who managed an OPS of .851 in the PCL in 2009. Greene has speed to burn, having stolen 121 bases in his minor league career while only having been caught 19 times. He makes solid contact and has decent power as well. He's shown respectable plate discipline in the minors as well, walking in nearly 10% of his plate appearances in AAA in 2009, although in short stints this hasn't yet translated in the majors.
Greene would probably be the starting shortstop for the Orioles tomorrow. But on a contender like St. Louis, Greene is trapped in AAA, with occasional promotions to the bigs where he has been used as a utility infielder with limited success. The owner of a career .950 fielding percentage in the minors, Greene isn't the fielder than Brendan Ryan is for the Cards, although his bat might well make up the difference. But the Cardinals are unlikely to give him an extended shot anytime soon, making him a prime candidate to be dealt for someone to help with their playoff chances.
1b Mark Hamilton - Hamilton, who was born in Baltimore but raised in Louisiana, was a second round pick out of Tulane in 2006, and struggled mostly at staying healthy his first several professional seasons, perhaps due to despair over being a first baseman for the team with Albert Pujols. However, he came back strong in 2009, putting up an OPS of .927 with an OBP of ,.401 between AA and AAA, and the Cards put him on the 40 man roster to protect him from the Rule V draft.
A left-handed batter with good hitting skills and excellent on-base skills but problems staying healthy, Hamilton is essentially the poor man's Nick Johnson. Hamilton doesn't offer much in the way of defensive value, and has at times struggled badly against lefties, and has only four hits against them in 33 at bats so far this year. He's killing righties, however, with an OPS against them of 1.100 so far this year in AAA. Three weeks ago, however, Hamilton landed back on the disabled list. Blocked by Pujols in the majors and already at AAA, Hamilton will probably be used as trade fodder for the Cards when he returns to the field.
Rockies:
RHP Chris Balcom-Miller - A sixth round pick out of junior college in the 2009 draft, Balcom-Miller got off to a great start to his pro career, going 4-0 with an ERA of 1.58 on his way to winning Pitcher of the Year in the Pioneer League. He's had less luck so far in 2010, going 0-4 with an ERA of 4.04 in the Sally League, but don't let that fool you. Balcom-Miller has a FIP of 2.35 this year for Asheville, a WHIP of 0.94, and has a GB% of 60.4. He's shown plus control, walking only 1.13 per nine innings, and induces lots of swings and misses, with a K/9 of 9.56.
Balcom-Miller has good pro size at 6'2, 190, and features a two-seamer that sits in the low 90s and a plus changeup. While he projects to be a #4/#5 starter at the pro level, his results to date suggest that he could be a right-handed version of Zach Britton.
Twins:
SS Trevor Plouffe - The Orioles have been reported to be interested in Twins prospect Trevor Plouffe, a first round pick out of high school in 2004. Plouffe hasn't exactly broken out though at any point in his minor league career, however, and has never posted an OPS above .800 in six full minor league seasons. In fact, his .768 OPS so far this season in AAA is the highest he has ever achieved. He doesn't feature any plus tools either, lacking plus speed, contact ability, or power. He has good range at shortstop, but has shown a lot of inconsistency with his throwing, and has a career fielding percentage of .945 in the minors. He saw his first taste of the majors this year and didn't exactly impress, going 3-23 with an error and no walks in seven games.
Compared to a toolbox like Greene, Plouffe seems like a less attractive option. And the Twins, who have catching prospect Wilson Ramos to use as trade bait, can and likely will do better than Millwood if they want to add a starter. But they have a need at third base and could pursue Wigginton, and while I hope the Orioles would get another piece besides Plouffe for him from the Twins, he appears to be someone the O's believe in and is their most likely trade target from Minnesota. The Twins have a history of prospects who struggle in the minors finding greater success in the majors, such as Denard Span, so perhaps there is something that Jordan and MacPhail see in Plouffe that I can't find in the numbers.
Statistics courtesy of Baseball Reference, First Inning, and Minor League Splits.
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And of course
Buster Olney today says that “the Orioles aren’t in a rush to trade their veterans, partly because the team is struggling so much” (mlbtr).
Which…yeah, that makes sense. We’re struggling, so we want to hang onto these guys in case everyone else suddenly turns it around. You don’t want Matt Wieters to start hitting and then suddenly not have Kevin Millwood to give up a ton of home runs.
Fire Garret Atkins.
I tend to think stuff like that is usually a smokescreen
Teams don’t want to let other teams know they are selling, because then other clubs think they can get your players at a discount. MLBTR has also put up multiple reports that the O’s are listening on Millwood already.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
fair enough
I’m just in a terrible mood about the orioles today. Maybe the worst day so far. ergh.
Fire Garret Atkins.
A couple articles relating to this on FanGraphs
and one on what the Orioles should do in general They suggest Luke would actually be the best trade chip.
Isn't it almost impossible to believe that none of the perfect games this season have been thrown against us? -O'sFan21
Dave Cameron LOVES Luke...
….so I’m not surprised that his compatriots at Fangraphs feel that way. I have misgivings about that – I think that teams won’t pay much for Luke since there are so many LF/DH types that can be had without paying a serious price in prospects. I think Luke will be undervalued by the trade market and is therefore probably going to remain an Oriole. I think Guthrie would be our best trade chip, but I don’t see the team dealing him either.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Yeah, I saw the Cameron post yesterday
and I totally agree. I think I said this a month ago and I’ll say it again, we should be happy to get a bucket of balls for Millwood. If we pay his salary, at best we could get a A-ball relievers with a live arm.
And Luke is easily our best trade chip. A team would control for multiple years, he has defensive value, and his bat has come around after a slow start.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
Eh
Cameron seems to think that Millwood has significantly more value than a bucket of balls. I’m a little confused to see you say you agree when you don’t have the same conclusion at all.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Unless Millwood really turns it on over the next month, he’s unlikely to command much of a return from the team that acquires him.
He also compares Millwood to Pavano and Pavano was only able to get a PTBNL for the Indians last year. We have exactly the same conclusion about his potential return.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
Pavano was a different situation...
…as the Indians wanted to shed his payroll. If we pick up the money, I think we should get something somewhat useful for him. If we can’t, I still say keep him and offer him arb, which I’m pretty confident he’ll turn down (Boras clients always do).
He also points out that Pavano was a bargain at the price that he was dealt for. I believe that the market in baseball, while inefficient, isn’t stupid, and that it will correct itself. From the Fangraphs post today:
After a strong start Kevin Millwood has pitched poorly lately, which certainly hurts his trade stock. As Dave wrote yesterday, however, he could present a bargain for a contending team looking for an additional arm. This is good for the contender, but bad for the Orioles. According to Eddie Bajek’s reverse engineering of the Elias rankings Millwood still rates as a Type B free agent, and unless he completely collapses probably won’t lose that designation. The Orioles can likely do better — they did, after all, nab Josh Bell for George Sherrill last year — but they shouldn’t expect a huge return for Millwood.
Emphasis added. Let’s be clear, none of the guys listed here are world-beaters. Not one of them is a top ten prospect on their current team. The teams all understand the same things about xFIP that Fangraphs does. If you can’t get better than a supplemental pick for Millwood, then don’t trade him.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
If we pick up the money, I think we should get something somewhat useful for him.
Like I said, I think a A-ball reliever with a live arm is a possible if we pick up his salary. And I totally disagree about offering arbitration, but we’ve had this conversation before. He’ll make $14M next via arbitration. As a free agent, he’s certainly won’t beat that AAV and he probably won’t get much more than that total contract size either.
According to Eddie Bajek’s reverse engineering of the Elias rankings Millwood still rates as a Type B free agent, and unless he completely collapses probably won’t lose that designation.
He is already collapsing. Granted, he had some starts against the Yankees. But if he stays with the O’s, he’ll get more starts against the Yankees particularly in Sept.
The Orioles can likely do better — they did, after all, nab Josh Bell for George Sherrill last year — but they shouldn’t expect a huge return for Millwood.
Well, Sherrill was, you know, excellent. Millwood is not good. It’s not a good comp… it’s strange one in fact (why would you compare a top shelf reliever to a poor starter, granted his xFIP suggests he’s better, but I don’t know if teams will value him by his xFIP). Right now, I happen to agree with Cameron, that a PTBA looks like a most likely return on Millwood, but we’ll see.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
We simply disagree on a host of issues here
On everything from the arb process to whether or not Millwood is “collapsing” to the supposed excellence of George Sherrill (we’re talking about the same Sherrill, right? The one with the career ERA+ of 123 and the current ERA+ of 60?).
I suppose time may prove one or the other of us correct.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
I'll just state the facts
On everything from the arb process
MIllwood’s 2010 salary – $12M. Arbitration rules guarantees he will make $9.6M next year.
whether or not Millwood is "collapsing"
Millwood’s ERA the last 28 days: 8.48.
supposed excellence of George Sherrill
Sherrill’s ERA+ at the time of his trade: 190, which is probably the most important stat since we’re talking about trade value, not historical performance.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
I don't think most teams are stupid
I don’t think they evaluate trade targets on their ERA from the last five starts, or based on the performance of a reliever at the moment of the trade.
And I think Boras thinks he can get Millwood more than $10m guaranteed.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
I don’t think they evaluate trade targets on their ERA from the last five starts,
Yes, I agree. I just wanted to show that Millwood is “collapsing.”
or based on the performance of a reliever at the moment of the trade.
Sure, but I do think they weigh recent performance the most. In any case, Sherrill has been a damn fine reliever the last few years. His last season with SEA was excellent. He was good in 2008 and then terrific again 2009.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
fair enough
Excellent in 2007, average in 2008, excellent in 2009.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
also one more fact
Pavano’s age last off season – 34
Millwood’s age this off season – 35
Pavano’s xFIP in 2009 – 3.96
Millwood’s xFIP in 2010 (so far) – 4.17
Pavano accepted arbitration rather than face free agency, 2010 salary = $7M
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
My counter
Carl Pavano, innings pitched:
2006: 0
2007: 11 1/3
2008: 34.1/3
2009: 199 1/3
Kevin Millwood, innings pitched:
2006: 215
2007: 172 2/3
2008: 168 2/3
2009: 198 2/3
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Sure, and because of these numbers I think Millwood can secure a longer contract than Pavano. But I think the $7M Pavano received is what Millwood is looking at AAV this offseason if he continues his current performance… and I think that’s generous. Too generous if you ask me. I expect Millwood to receive more like $3 to $4M AAV if he finishes with an ERA of 5.32. In any case, I’m guessing a 2 or 3 year deal for Millwood worth $10M to $14M if he hits free agency this winter and if he continues his current performance. If he turns it up like Pavano last year, maybe he can get a 2 or 3 year deal, worth $14 or $21M. If he goes to arbitration, I’m guessing $13 to $14M. Like Pavano before him, Boras would be smart to accept arbitration unless Millwood goes apeshit from here on out.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
I see it differently
Millwood, if he stays with the O’s, will have a hard time getting more than $10M in arb because his numbers will suck, and will have to stay with the O’s and in the AL East. If he goes to free agency, he can get at least $12M and probably more like $15M over two, and he gets to choose who he plays for.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Millwood, if he stays with the O’s, will have a hard time getting more than $10M in arb because his numbers will suck,
Sucky performances get players raises all the time in arbitration. if the O’s offer $9.65M, the lowest they can offer, Millwood will counter with $14 and win the case. At the very least, he’s guaranteed $12M in practical terms. $13 or $14M is more likely.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
Again, I simply don't agree
With how pay scales for players have been changing, I don’t think past arbitration awards are the best guide to the future.
But I also think it is academic. This is not where Millwood wants to end his career. He’s made a ton of money, and I don’t think that one or two million is going to persuade him to stick around.
And I don’t think that matters either, since I expect him to be traded and for the return to be not Brett Jacobson.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
fair enough
I do hope we at least get a decent relief prospect for him.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
and
Chris Ray is sporting a 126 ERA+ as a reliever (granted it’s completely unsustainable). We should have never traded for Millwood in the first place.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
James, do you think teams really value xFIP?
Or an xFIP-like number that they may reach on their own.
This is an honest inquiry. I wonder how much teams consider things like park factors and divisional differences and the like in evaluating talent on other teams. Is some team in the NL going to look at Kevin Millwood and say, “Well, he’s facing better competition than we have – he’ll pitch better for us”? Will MacPhail hold out for a greater return by using this logic?
It seems to me that the Orioles’ major league acquisitions don’t accept this principle and haven’t for a number of years, going back before the MacPhail years but probably (if you consider, say, the Atkins and Gonzalez signings) still exists now. In the last decade it seemed like every year there were 1-2 pitchers imported from the NL who probably got paid too much money to get dumped into the AL East.
I think the media accepts this without analyzing it deeply, as the continuing superiority of the AL in interleague play is a narrative that gets a lot of use, but I just wonder whether teams take it into consideration. It seems to me that there would be a necessary amount of arrogance required to ever get into that kind of position and that would make it difficult to accept (even privately where the press will never see) that there is a competitive difference between leagues or whatever.
Baltimore is Baltimore. That's kind of what I know. - Manny Machado, 6/7/10
by Eat More Esskay on Jun 23, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
my two cents
James, do you think teams really value xFIP?
Judging from the Pavano market last year, no. Pavano had an xFIP of 3.94 at the time of trade. He did generate much interest nor a return. Teams treated as a player with an ERA of 5.34 not 3.94.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
I don't know if they use xFIP exactly
A lot of teams have their own statistical analysis guys on their staff, and they use their own proprietary tools. This is, for example, what Bill James does for the Red Sox.
Obviously, some teams believe more in these kinds of analysis than others. And there are other factors in play; teams are also looking at tons of video and listening to their scouts, etc. My assumption is that all 30 teams know things about every major league player that no one writing about the game does.
I also think that the good money chases the bad money from the table. Teams look at the Pavano trade and see that it worked out well for the Twins; teams look at the Atkins signing and see it worked out terribly for the Orioles. Therefore, teams will become interested in seeing how the Twins knew that the Pavano deal would work out, and why the Orioles should have known better than to sign Atkins. Markets are efficient due to this kind of symmetrical information – everyone can see what kinds of moves work and what kinds don’t, and adapt their strategies in response. So now more teams pursue international free agents and overslot draft picks, when in the past only a few teams did. And in a few years, the last holdouts will be signing overslot picks and international free agents as well, just like no one cared about on-base percentage twenty years ago and now just about everyone does.
Everyone knows that the AL East has the three teams with the best records in baseball right now, and that it is the only division with four teams with winning records. People may not take into account a difference between the leagues, but they know the AL East is the toughest division in baseball, just like they know that starts against the Yankees are different from starts against the Pirates. The teams that are contending didn’t stumble into that position; they are run by smart people who are good at their jobs. The teams that will want to add Millwood are going to be teams that think he can be valuable; no one is going to trade for him because they look at his W-L record or ERA and think, “there’s the ace I’m looking for!”
Market transactions happen because both parties want them to. No one is going to trade for Millwood unless they are convinced it is worth doing, and MacPhail isn’t going to trade Millwood unless there is a benefit for him in doing so. I don’t know what MacPhail is actually looking for, but his statements have been that he will only trade players in order to gain players that he feels are valuable to us. I think Millwood has value to other teams, as do several other teams according to multiple sources. I also think that he has some value to the Orioles over the rest of this season, and that he won’t be traded unless the return is equal to or greater than the value of keeping him around.
And I expect the result will be a generally efficient economic transaction. There is just too much smart money in the game now for me to believe otherwise.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
This all makes sense.
I also think that the good money chases the bad money from the table.
In my limited experience, the bad money is drunk on comped cocktails and continues to re-buy.
Which is probably why I’m not very optimistic about the Orioles right now.
Baltimore is Baltimore. That's kind of what I know. - Manny Machado, 6/7/10
by Eat More Esskay on Jun 24, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I share Andrew G's terrible mood
My disgust nowadays is aimed at MacPhail, not the players.
How could he allow a deep to get in this deep shit? He’s like the BP CEO, with no plan B and telling up there are no problems with the hitting that a little luck wouldn’t fix.
Maybe someone could educate me on how MacPhail arrived at the stellar reputation had before he came to the Orioles and flushed the franchise down the toilet, to the tune (possibly) of the worst team in modern baseball history.
Did he have any success anywhere else? I mean, real success…
oops
How could he allow a “team,” not How could he allow a “deep”
by Fred Sanford on Jun 23, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, MacPhail won two World Series as GM of the Twins...
…and brought the Cubs to the playoffs twice, in 98 and 03.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Thanks James
I knew you’d have the answer.
He must suffer, then, from Leo Mazzone syndrome: A career of success suddenly frozen in place by employment with the Baltimore Orioles under Peter Angelos.
by Fred Sanford on Jun 23, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I find this a difficult question to answer
Up until last offseason, MacPhail looked to be doing a standout job. Then, suddenly, he seems to have gone insane and the O’s decision making has utterly collapsed.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
just for emphasis
before he came to the Orioles and flushed the franchise down the toilet
Because we had been so close to contending before AM
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 23, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
As for the possible players you listed
Tyler Greene sounds good to me.
Which of those players do you like best?
Isn't it almost impossible to believe that none of the perfect games this season have been thrown against us? -O'sFan21
I like all of them to varying degrees
Plouffe less than all the others, but all of them are good players who we could use.
Greene is probably the most talented of the group, and also the one we could use the most. Familia has the highest ceiling – he’s a #3/borderline #2 starter if he gets his control in order, but he’s also a potential Daniel Cabrera. Balcom-Miller and Nieuwenhuis are personal favorites who I think have a good chance of being better than people predict, particularly Balcom-Miller, but neither is a strong need for the team. Hamilton does fill a strong need, both in terms of skills and position, but his continued health problems are, well, a problem.
If I were ranking them for us, I’d go Greene, Balcom-Miller, Familia, Nieuwenhuis, Hamilton, Plouffe.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Considering Millwood was just recently Chris Ray
I’ll take any of them
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 23, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Way to go
Is there any way we can clone Cal?
If we're going to start cloning, he's not the one I'd like to see cloned first.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Give me 1966 Frank Robinson
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Um, no.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Apparently its shortstop or bust for Wigginton
Orioles won’t move Wigginton unless they get back young SS. It’s a self-defeating stance: No team will trade young SS for Wigginton.
It would be a good time for Wiggy to hit a bunch more homers
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
they said the same thing about Sherrill last year
I believe Robothal in sense that the O’s won’t move Wigginton unless it’s for a good IF prospect. It doesn’t have to be SS, but they prefer SS.
I came to camdenchat and all I got was this lousy avatar.
In favor of Trevor Plouffe...
You make a great case for Tyler Greene. I’m not really arguing with you, just throwing out some food for thought.
Plouffe is almost three full years younger than Greene. Plouffe just turned 24 last week, Green will turn 27 in Aug.
Plouffe has been younger than most of the competition at every stop in the minors. 20 @ A+, 21 @ AA, 22 @ AAA. That has held down his career numbers. Greene’s best numbers were posted as a 25/26 year old at AAA.
Plouffe has all his options, Greene spent one last year.
I’m not sure I disagree with you James, I’m just not as certain that Plouffe is the runt of the litter. Particularly when I think about where they will each be in their development in 2012.
You make a strong point
I hadn’t really considered Plouffe’s age relative to league. I still think he’s yet to show any plus tools though. And while that’s not such a big deal for a shortstop, it makes it pretty hard for him to be an above-average regular.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
Thanks for the interesting discussions
I hope we can engineer a trade. If we do not offer Millwood arbitration, does that mean that we don’t get a draft pick for losing him?

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