Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: What If This Is It For The Celtics? End Of An Era Looming

The Diamond Dave Era Ends: 2007-2010


It's official, Dave Trembley has been relieved of his duties as manager of the Baltimore Orioles.

The team's press conference introducing Juan Samuel as the interim manager will take place at 2:30 p.m. EDT and be shown on MASN and orioles.com.

Here's a quick round-up of reporting so far. Links will be added as they become available.

Comment 101 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Around SB Nation

Wednesday's Frosty Mug

Nov 2010 from Brew Crew Ball - 122 comments

Comments

Display:

"trembley firing isn't the answer"

yea….cuz juan samuel is taking over.

I don’t have much tolerance for stupid. Or cheese on food that doesn’t need it. -duck

by twistedlogic on Jun 4, 2010 10:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Welcome to the hot seat, Mr. Samuel.

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Jun 4, 2010 10:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Hopefully, Samuel is NOT the answer.

Someone has to manage, I guess, but Samuel doesn’t excite anyone. Perhaps it’s time for a kick – ass disciplinarian.

by fuddnelson on Jun 4, 2010 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Roch says Samuel might only be mgr a few weeks...
Samuel isn’t expected to remain in his new role throughout the summer. It could last as little as a few weeks, depending on how quickly the Orioles start interviewing candidates and make a decision.

- Roch

Don’t get comfy.

From the Land of Pleasant Living...

by OEutaw on Jun 4, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

This

Everything I’ve read today indicates that Andy is going to do this hire sooner than later. Certainly not wait until the end of the season.

To which I say, “Amen.”

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Jun 4, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll hold my amen until I see who they hire.

Isn't it almost impossible to believe that none of the perfect games this season have been thrown against us? -O'sFan21

by Stacey on Jun 4, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

technically

can AM even make a phone call while DT is still manager? I would assume not. I would think he has spent the past month creating a short list. This leaves the next few weeks to make the calls and get the ball rolling.

by Philly O's on Jun 4, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

what?

of course he can make a phone call. He can call any GM he wants and ask for permission to interview. And it would generally be granted.

He also has every right to interview someone while there’s someone in the job. He doesn’t do this because it’s classless, not because it’s tampering.

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Jun 4, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait...

You can’t do this. You’re required to keep your interim manager for at least a full season. Right?

by mlb32001 on Jun 4, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

i assume you're being sarcastic, right?

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Jun 4, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thats what the Orioles have always led me to believe. ;)

But seriously, who do you think we’d interview to take Samuels spot? I’m all for actually hiring a new manager, but who could honestly turn this team around? A manager can only do so much.

by mlb32001 on Jun 4, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Trembley seems like an alright dude.

But he was a terrible manager who never stopped exacerbating the struggles of a terrible team. In that regard I am not sorry to see him go.

"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008

Adam Jones is the tits.

by KenDixonFanClub on Jun 4, 2010 10:39 AM EDT reply actions  

So, the general thing

seems to be “Trembley was a nice guy, but you can’t fire 25 players” and that firing the manager was the only option to jolt the team and/or fanbase before everyone changes the channel on the season.

To which I say: bullshit. Fire Julio Lugo (-0.5 WAR) and Garret Atkins (-0.9), and perhaps even Cesar Izturis (-0.4) and Lou Montanez (-0.7), and perhaps look into finding some replacements for Castillo (-0.5) and Albers (-0.4) – although relievers being volatile, I won’t go crazy about these assholes. None of these guys have futures on this team, and none of them are pulling even the weight of Frank Mata or Corey Patterson. And most of them are unlikely to rebound and perform.

Don’t just fire the manager because you need change for change’s sake. How about actually improving the team via burning the dead wood?

"The wise man saith, 'Put all your eggs in the one basket and--WATCH THAT BASKET.'"

by Andrew_G on Jun 4, 2010 10:48 AM EDT reply actions  

i agree with everything you said, but....

you can’t fire guys without knowing who’s going to replace them. the new manager might want some input on that.

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Jun 4, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Alls I'm saying

is Trembley got a raw deal, and instead of actually improving the roster, MacPhail fired the manager. Not that he shouldn’t have, but now Juan Samuel – and whoever replaces him – will have the exact same raw deal. Fix the roster, even at the edges. Show some real change.

If we’re talking about who could replace Garret Atkins, I’m going to laugh. The guy is the worst first baseman in all of baseball, and he’s been benched twice for the suck. Basically anyone could replace him.

"The wise man saith, 'Put all your eggs in the one basket and--WATCH THAT BASKET.'"

by Andrew_G on Jun 4, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

I dont buy the Trembley's just taking the fall for 25 underperforming players attitude

t you arent just firing a random person to satisfy some sort of pink slip bloodlust, you’re removing the person who was in charge of maximizing the talent given. Are we a .500 or better team with a different manager? Doubtful. But we should certainly be better than we are. And a lot of that is on Dave’s lack of in-game managerial ability. I hope that is what got him fired.

by kba26 on Jun 4, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rosehthal is right

He’s pegged MacPhail as very conservative and methodical – which he clearly is. How many times do we need to hear “we’re letting the market play out” and then watch the Orioles pick up another round of free agents on the decline? This franchise needs more than a ’kick ass" manager. It needs some sense of urgency and some boldness from the top on down. MacPhail counterbalancing a strong GM makes some sense. The big problem is Angelos does not like strong personalities. Not in the GM, nor in the manager.

by drj on Jun 4, 2010 10:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Ok

I was fine with letting the mob mentality take down DD. He did some things that bugged me as a manager, sure he wasn’t the reason we sucked, but he did some dumb ass shit.

I am not on board with the mob mentality taking down MacPhail as well. The dude said he would build our team through the farm system and that takes time. Klaw ranked our system #6 to start the season and that didnt include Jones and Wieters. Not to mention we are spending more on the draft than ever before. The first draft MacPhail was a part of was the one where we picked Hoes and Avery, my point there is, it just fucking happend. Sure he made some bad signings this off-season, but he picked the wrong stop-gaps. La di fucking da. If in two or three years our pipeline of talent doesn’t resemble the current farm system for the Ray’s, then you can call for MacPhails head. If we ever want to beat the yanks and sox, thats how we have to do it.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 4, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

well said.

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Jun 4, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

This isn't mob mentality

MacPhail and his front office has to get off their ass and make it happen. He’s the guy who gave Trembley the bullshit to work with and proclaimed it’s about winning now. He’s the guy who said this was the best team he’s ever come north with. He’s the guy who put pressure on the young guys to produce without providing a framework to do so. He just assumed Jones, Wieters, and Markakis would form the core of a strong batting lineup. Read the Sun, those guys have been pressing from day one and plenty here blame it all on Trembley’s inability to cultivate the young talent. People should be questioning MacPhail as much as they are Trembley’s “poor management”.

The focus has to shift away from the managers – who always get the blame – and to the front office. It’s la-ti-da bullshit not to put the bullseye directly on Angelos and MacPhail – right now. Give MacPhail a little more time, but he has to light a fire under this franchise’s ass and be shrewder. If he’s to build on the cheap like the Rays, he can no longer afford such big misses on drafts and off season acquisitions. He also has to find a manager that will instill the urgency that should also be emanating from him.

by drj on Jun 4, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

The claims about winning now was a complete mistake

In fact, AM had a terrible offseason, that being said he didn’t mess up our future at all. I am not saying dont be critical of him because I am. Be critical of the moves he makes and how he handles the team. He blew up the team so we weren’t sitting in no-mans land and planned to build through the draft and the farm system. He upped our draft budget (we never spent anywhere close to the 6.9-8.5 million per year that we’ve spent the past three years).

Also, i get the misses in FA, but like i said before, they were stopgaps and after this year will be off the books except $6M to Gonzo. But please do tell, who are the misses in the draft? Matusz, Wieters, Hobgood? He signed the checks on all of them, and the only questionable one was Hobgood but its still way too early to judge that one.

Rebuilding a franchise that was as barren as ours is probably a 5 year endeavour (thats probably a good length of time for a class or two of prep players to develop into ML players). This is year 3. As long as he sticks to the plan that he declared then i’m perfectly fine of this work.

Also, it is the mob mentality, because we have the worst record in baseball, fans wanted somebody’s head. The mob needed to be appeased, DD took one for the team.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 4, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

Even before he said that this year was about winning, the fans were saying it. Its not like we wouldn’t be just as devastated now if he hadn’t said it.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 4, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll disagree about drafting

2008, we took

Is it wrong to expect that 24 months after that draft, the majority haven’t even made it to Bowie? Avery, Hoes and Miclat have been HUGE disappointments at the plate, especially Miclat last year.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of the 9 prep players taken in the first round of that draft, two are in AA

Brett Lawrie and Casey Kelly. And they were virtually all higher regarded than Hoes and Avery. Tim Beckham, the #1 pick, has a .680 OPS in A+ ball this year. Avery has a .698 and Hoes has a .808 at A+ ball. Avery was widely considered to be a very “raw” player since he picked up baseball later, so even being able to keep his head above water at A+ ball this year is a good sign.

Oliver Drake is one more notable name that went after round 20, he could be a solid BOR starter or bullpen arm, but for round 43 thats gold.

I dont care for college players after the first round in general, so Hudson, Miclat, Zagone, and Joseph all in a row disapointed me. Joseph could be solid but you just dont get the potential to have much of an impact after round one from college players (unless we are talking Arrieta or Berry who fell for injury reasons).

Bundy has disapointed me ($600k bonus), but he had an ACL injury so that takes two years to fully recover from. He was a first round talent before the injury he got from playing basketball.

Jesse Beal ($275k bonus) is looking solid in class A at age 19.

So yea, dont worry that they aren’t in Bowie yet, because only the elite prep players have made it that far.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 4, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, am I being unrealistic in my expectations?

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe so

I would like to hear James’s take but I’m not at all concerned that they haven’t made it to AA.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 4, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I copied from Baseball Cube

so I defer to your knowledge.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think thats as of the end of last season then

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 4, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's based on the end of last season maybe?

I just noticed that Caleb Joseph was wrong, i have no idea if there are others that are inaccurate

by kba26 on Jun 4, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

from the few i know thats what it looks like

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 4, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I think that's wrong

I’ll have to check to be sure, but I think that over 50% of draftees never reach AA.

Look, Avery and Hoes are both among the youngest players in A+, so the idea that any of the preps taken in this class should be in AA is pretty silly. Meanwhile, to me, that looks like a pretty good class. Matusz is Matusz. Hoes looked great before coming down with this mysterious illness, Avery looks good and I still am high on him, Joseph continues to hit after starting the season cold, Beal and Zagone are tweener pitching prospects with Beal having some breakout potential, Welty and Bundy are both fringe prospects with Welty moving up and Bundy moving down.

Eight guys out of 17 signed, with only one overslot signing beyond Matusz? I’ll take that in a heartbeat.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jun 4, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hoes looked great for ONE MONTH this year

and looked like crap for all of last season. I’m telling you, he and Avery looked completely overmatched when I saw them last year, and I was shocked when they didn’t end up back at Delmarva or even demoted to Aberdeen for 2010.

I’m glad you’re high on them. I think they may both end up being completely wasted draft picks.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh

I didn’t see them last year, or this year, and even if I did, I doubt I’d be qualified to evaluate them by sight.

I think this comes down to Jordan, and how you feel about Jordan, and more importantly if Jordan is right. Avery and Hoes are the types of position players Jordan LOVES, raw tools types with speed. I think he favors them more than any other team except the Phillies. You can go badly wrong with those guys, or end up looking like a genius.

What I know is that Jordan is highly regarded in the game, and that he’s got a stronger hold on Angelos than MacPhail does. If Jordan isn’t what we hope he is, we’re fucked, IMO. I think he’s done pretty well, but it is hard to say, particularly when none of the guys who have made the bigs have broken out yet.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jun 4, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Raw tools with speed

Sounds like how the Raiders end up spending a first-round pick on Darius- Heyward-Bey every damn year. I want baseball players, not projects. Get me someone who can play the damn game!

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well with baseball, you have more flexibility to teach people the game

Rookies in the NFL have much less time before they’re have to contribute

by kba26 on Jun 4, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

"particularly when none of the guys who have made the bigs have broken out yet."

I’d argue that make it NOT hard to say he hasn’t done well.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's still early

You can’t say yet that Jordan draftees like Wieters and Matusz are busts yet.

Meanwhile, if you don’t like raw and toolsy, well, you aren’t going to like Jordan’s position players. I’m not saying that you are wrong to feel how you do. But a lot of raw and toolsy draft picks end up being some of the league’s best players. I don’t think you’d be sad to see Carl Crawford on the Orioles. Jordan favors this approach, and that’s not the worst thing, even if it isn’t what I’d do.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jun 4, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jordan's approach

seems pretty logical, and meshes well with MacPhail’s grow-arms-buy-bats philosophy. Raw, toolsy guys with speed are good to have, even though you need some sluggers in there too. But speed goes away with age, while power often comes later.

So doesn’t it make more sense to focus on drafting raw/toolsy/fast guys (whom you can keep for cheap until they start losing their speed) and pitchers (who are very volatile and thus not the best to invest lots of money in) while trading for and spending money on established sluggers?

Obviously, the problem is that we have yet to actually get any established sluggers. But last offseason’s free agents were not terribly appealing in that regard, so I’m not holding that against MacPhail. (I do not, however, give him a pass on Atkins or the loss of a draft pick for Gonzalez.) If we don’t get a serious power bat next offseason — say, Adam Dunn — then I’ll start getting unhappy.

"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -- Earl Weaver

by Vuff on Jun 4, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

re

Yeah, the FA misses are more pronounced. We’ll know about drafts in a few years (but I am not a Hobgood fan). Avery, who is now touted, is still discussed as a ‘speed guy’, not a baseball guy. BaseballProspectus hasn’t traditionally been too high on him (last I recall).

You talk about building via the draft. The O’s need to do a lot more than that. They’ll need shrewd trades. The touted Sherrill – Bell trade is not what they ultimately need. I still believe Bell is a role player (yeah, others disagree). They’ll need to make some bold/difficult trades where they exchange talent for talent like the Rays picked up Garza. They need to be successful with supplemental players. Gonzo, Atkins, Uehara, Izturius aren’t going to make you successful in the AL East.

So far, MacPhail has made the necessary trades (Bedard, Tejada) and the results are still mixed. He’s had top draft positions where you just can’t afford to miss and we’ll see about Hobgood. Other than that, there hasn’t been a lot of encouraging assembling of talent. It’s been a succession of stop gap players that anyone could have picked up. People talk about MacPhail buying the bats when the time is right. That’s just blind faith that some key player will be available when all the rest of the pieces are assembled. If only it were so straight forward. I think MacPhail is in the difficult part of building the team. If he’s to remain ‘cheap’ he has to be extremely shrewd. Not many front offices have done it. He and Angelos should be squarely in the spotlight from now on. Not the next manager they hire. Blaming the next manager (assuming he’s not a complete clown) will be the same cop out we’ve seen for over a decade now.

by drj on Jun 4, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

re

I’m on the fence with Hobgood, i accept it since extra money was spent later in the draft (we actually spent more that year than any other year). I’ll let that play out before i evaluate it, but it sounds like you are too. Avery is still very much a toolsy player, hence the comparison to crawford that is often thrown out there. He’s a work in progress.

I would love to see some shrewd trades, but you have to have chips top play. Who is going to net a big return on this team? You could do a prospect for prospect trade, or trade markakis. I’d love a Garza trade, but really, they could afford the Delmon Young trade because they had Upton and Crawford playing well at the ML level. We dont have a position of strength like that.

He got ample returns for Bedard, Tejada, and Sherrill considering their value. Only Roberts really had value beyond that, and he wasn’t going to net very much.

He has poured more legit prospects onto this team than we had seen in a decade. Roberts, Bedard, Markakis and Mussina were the only real pick’s we saw contribute in past years. He has already given us more players considered to be top prospects by third parties than we had in many years combined. For this I applaud him and this is why I think he should 5 years before his job is questioned.

When he took the job, he was considered ‘cheap’. I took this with a grain of salt since it was Chicago people, but I’m keeping it in the back of my mind for when these players actually develop. The manager has never been more than a scapegoat in these situations, but thats just cause people aren’t patient.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 4, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did he REALLY get ample returns?

Sure, we traded Bedard and Tejada for 2 years where their presence didn’t matter.

But what did we really get?

BEDARD:

CF Adam Jones, (1 iffy GG and ASG appearance, batting under .260 for the last 162 games)

LHP George Sherrill (flipped into Josh Bell, who can’t hit lefties, and Steve Johnson, who’s organizational fodder)

LHP Tony Butler (injured and/or ineffective)

RHP Chris Tillman (now starting to show promise)

RHP Kam Mickolio (no foreseeable future as a usable MLB pitcher)

and

TEJADA:

OF Luke Scott (performed at times, more streaky than a season of The Simpsons)

3B Michael Costanzo (since released)

LHP Troy Patton (hurt and/or ineffective)

RHP Matt Albers (not the same since hurt)

RHP Dennis Sarfate (demoted)

Not exactly the bonanza we thought. How much of this is on AM for not seeing the flaws in these guys?

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think ample would be a fair adjective

considering the performance bedard and tejada put up after that.

by kba26 on Jun 4, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

this

Bell was the #37 prospect by BA (that seemed a bit optimistic to me at the time) at the begining of the year. He’s got stuff to work on but all prospects do.

Steve Johnson is no prize prospect, but he’s not organizational fodder. He’s probably DH level prospect, he’ll probably end up a steady 7th or 8th inning guy. Considering he was basically a throw in to the trade, its good value.

Tillman is still a prized young arm

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 4, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does anyone honestly expect Steve Johnson to make the big club at some point?

If not, he’s organizational filler.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do

He had a decent shot at making the Giants in ST. He’s like a better Jason Berken IMO.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jun 4, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

If so, I will be glad I'm wrong.

I’d love to see the kid do well. Son of a favorite player, local boy makes good, all of that. I’d love for him to be a steady, dependable bullpen arm for a decade or so.

I just don’t see it happening.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

you are so cranky today ;)

Isn't it almost impossible to believe that none of the perfect games this season have been thrown against us? -O'sFan21

by Stacey on Jun 4, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

See below.

I think I’ve finally come to grips with just how bad this team’s offense is, and will be for years to come, and to quote Slipknot…

ALL HOPE IS GONE

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see him more as a 4/5 starter...

….than a bullpen guy; he’s more pitch variety than he is arm.

I’ll say this: Johnson isn’t the guy I wanted to get in addition to Bell (who also wasn’t who I wanted, I wanted Dee Gordon). But he’s done pretty well, has good bloodlines, and the O’s aren’t the only team who like him.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jun 4, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

But we can't afford "Good enough" guys

At some point, we have to get really good MLB players. Making deals that just keep us stocked in “good enough” players yields this year’s lineup.

I’m tired of getting “value” picks for players. At some point, we need real, live hitters and pitchers. Chris Tillman looks like he could be one via trade. And I’d argue he might be the only MLB player we get that ends up as a “better than OK” MLB player in all the deals we’ve made in the past half decade.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bear in mind, we got them both for nothing

George Sherrill hasn’t even been decent this year, last I checked. And he wasn’t worth what we got, much less what I might have hoped for.

I’m not saying I don’t have problems with MacPhail too. But can we really expect to get gold for George Sherrill?

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jun 4, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

But we have to break the cycle

of just being happy with value.

We have to get legitimate MLB players, not just value in trades. When are we going to either draft, sign or trade for people who belong in an AL East lineup?

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, I'm not happy with it

This is why the talk about the Hobgood pick lingers, and why they have a lot on the line there. This is why Wieters’ struggles are such a big deal, heck, why there were so many people for so long who felt we went wrong not taking Smoak over Matusz. It’s why I wanted us to go after Holliday in the offseason. It is why I make such a big deal about Chapman and Sano and the 2nd round pick for Gonzalez.

But I don’t think that you can blame MacPhail for not trading better.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jun 4, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with just about everything

you said in the first paragraph. I’ll disagree with your second one, but you make a lot of great points in the first.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

You've made this point before

I think that the fact that both trades were seen as pluses for the Orioles when they happened by the majority of baseball people not related to the Orioles in any way is your answer.

Nobody ever thought that Astros haul was going to net any future stars, but getting what we did for Tejada was a plus. From a straight value perspective, if you go by WAR for 2008-2009, both Albers and Sarfate were about replacement level and Luke Scott was at 3.7, while Tejada was at 2.2. Add into that the potential (however slight) for Patton to contribute in the future and it doesn’t look so bad. Miguel Tejada was not a hot commodity when he got traded. He was an old, cranky steroid user who lied to federal investigators.

I won’t even go into the Jones/Tillman deal because it was just so universally lauded by everyone that I don’t need to. If you want to blame Andy MacPhail for not seeing he flaws in players he got in return for Erik Bedard, then you have to also blame every other person who talked about what a great deal it was.

Prospects don’t always turn out, that’s why they are a risk. If Adam Jones and Chris Tillman go on to be a busts (unlikely in my opinion) that doesn’t mean it was a deal Andy MacPhail shouldn’t have made.

Isn't it almost impossible to believe that none of the perfect games this season have been thrown against us? -O'sFan21

by Stacey on Jun 4, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

also this

I’ve got a question. Is it on the scouts or on the GM if the players dont turn out? I guess both really, but i’m not sure.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 4, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd say both, and also neither

The GM hires the scouts so if they consistently mis-evaluate players, it reflects on both of them. However plenty of “can’t miss” prospects are touted by everyone regardless of organization and end up being busts.

Isn't it almost impossible to believe that none of the perfect games this season have been thrown against us? -O'sFan21

by Stacey on Jun 4, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Neither is NOT an option.

For 20 years, I’ve heard the phrase, “Well, the Caps ran into a hot goaltender in the playoffs. What are you going to do?”

For 15 years, I’ve heard the phrase, “well, you take your chances in the draft. What are you going to do?”

Make better choices and hold people responsible when those choices are bad ones. After a decade, it’s not luck anymore. Your front office sucks at what it does.

There’s no excuse why Baltimore can’t draft and trade as well as Tampa. None. Yes, it’s only been three years, but on the other hand, it’s been THREE YEARS. The future should be looking brighter than the dark whole of suck that our offense seems destined to be for the next 2-3 years. What’s next? “Wait for 2013!”

I wouldn’t be so mad if I could look at Bowie and Norfolk and see some glimmer of hope that a hitter or five are coming. But they’re not. And history shows us AM isn’t going to go buy good or great ones in bulk in the FA market. We are what we are, and offensively, it’s bad and going to get worse.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude, I'm not just talking about the Orioles

prospects bust all the time after every scout in the freaking world thinks they are the greatest thing ever.

Isn't it almost impossible to believe that none of the perfect games this season have been thrown against us? -O'sFan21

by Stacey on Jun 4, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point is...

other teams seem to do substanially better over longer periods of time identifying and drafting talent. It’s not ALL luck. Sometimes, you make your own bad luck. And our scouting department, for the last 15 years, seems to be making it by the barrelful.

What is keeping us from being one of those teams that gest scouting and drafting right, year after year? We need to identify it and fix it, or we’re spinning our wheels. Hire away the best scouts you can find. Are we doing that? Makre sure you have a powerful presentation in all markets, not just a token office or academy. Are we doing that?

It’s the lack of any reason for hope in this offense that just about sending me over the edge. Every pitcher in our system could work out at this point, and Brian Matusz is looking at 5 more years of losing 2-1 and 3-2 ballgames.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think *'scuse me* that you're forgetting something, though...

It was stated that this team needed to stockpile young arms. In this division, especially, you need lots of arms. That was an organizational philosophy that has played out (and pretty well, I’d say – none of the Big Three looks at this point like they aren’t what they’ve been touted as – any team would love to have this kind of pitching boon in the pipeline) towards a specific goal. That was to rectify the horrible levels of suck that a rotation consisting of a Lopez/Ponson/DuBose/Trachsel could inflict on even an average offensive team.

I’ll grant you the drafting prior was atrocious. Law of averages says you should trip over some serious talent by accident at some point, but this is the Orioles. I’m cool with the way things have shaken out in the farm system as of late, but it’s getting to be time to start drafting position players or trading some of these young arms for position players. Just because they haven’t fixed both the pitching AND the offense in 3 years doesn’t get my hackles up. Sh*t takes time, and the predecessors wasted a crapload of time.

From the Land of Pleasant Living...

by OEutaw on Jun 4, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

So when the hell does that start happening??????

I am fucking SICK of seeing this team treat 3 runs as an offensive explosion.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

deep breaths man deep breaths

Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck

by O'sFan21 on Jun 4, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

YOU are my voice of reason?

Man, we’re in deep shit now. :)

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh indeed

Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck

by O'sFan21 on Jun 5, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

"longer periods of time"

Andy MacPhail has been here since 2007. The Orioles were barren for 20 years.

Isn't it almost impossible to believe that none of the perfect games this season have been thrown against us? -O'sFan21

by Stacey on Jun 5, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

But at some point, results matter.

Other GMs make trades that work out and draft players that make an impact.

I originally was estactic about the Tejada trade. So maybe, given the timing of when we made it, it was a plus.

But the fact is, we have a dysfunctional lineup devoid of MLB talent in many places. Six of the nine lineup spots are 30+. There are no replacements on the horizon.

I just can’t get past the fact that 3 years into AM’s tenure, we are an old, slow team with no plate discipline and there is literally NO ONE who’s a positional player who’s within 2 years of making a difference to this offense.

And that’s on the GM. There are players out there that can be bought or traded for. This lineup wasn’t inevitable. It didn’t have to be this way.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a different argument altogether

MacPhail could have done plenty of additional things to make this team better right now. This I agree with. Because he didn’t does not mean that the Erik Bedard trade was a mistake. To use a phrase that I keep hearing around here these days, I will be a sad panda if the Tillman and Jones don’t turn out. A sad, sad, sad panda. But I won’t ever think it was a bad move.

Isn't it almost impossible to believe that none of the perfect games this season have been thrown against us? -O'sFan21

by Stacey on Jun 4, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a bad move

because they may have been better options and AM obviously misjudged the talent return. Thinking someone will be good and they then suck is a distinct problem for a GM. Do it enough times, and you sink a franchise.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah well we'll just always disagree

I don’t believe he misjudged the talent. Find me one person who knows about baseball who thought that was a bad deal for the Orioles when the trade was made. Because I can’t recall anyone. So does that mean EVERYONE misjudged the talent return? And if so, how can you blame MacPhail?

Isn't it almost impossible to believe that none of the perfect games this season have been thrown against us? -O'sFan21

by Stacey on Jun 4, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because he's the ORIOLES' GM

He can’t afford to get it wrong. I couldn’t care less is the Royals’ guy or the Diamondbacks’ guy is wrong, and I actively hope that Tampa’s guy and Toronto’s guy is wrong.

At some point, the excuses out of the FO have to stop. They have to get it right. They have to draft players who make it to the majors and perform. Yes, I understand the odds are long. Yes, I understand it’s not a science.

But it’s not all tea leaves and Ouija boards, either. Other teams manage to do a much better job than we do. Why can’t the Orioles be the team that gets it right? I refuse to believe that TB has just been luckier than us in the draft the past 5 years. They are doing something better than we are at identifying and cultivating talent.

It’s a GM’s job to find out what’s wrong and fix it so it works better. And when it comes to acquiring offensive talent, I don’t have much faith that AM and this souting department will get it done.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not about being wrong

It’s about accepting that you can’t ever 100% know what you’re going to get from prospects. It’s way too early to write MacPhail off as not being able to identify talent.

Isn't it almost impossible to believe that none of the perfect games this season have been thrown against us? -O'sFan21

by Stacey on Jun 5, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you want to blame Andy MacPhail for not seeing he flaws in players he got in return for Erik Bedard, then you have to also blame every other person who talked about what a great deal it was.

No to mention, the alternative was to let Bedard walk for nothing.

And the jury is still out on Jones. This is not the two months to be evaluating him, the way the team has been around him.

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Jun 4, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Two months my ass

It’s been a calendar year. And he’s getting worse.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tillman

Now starting to show promise”?

He was BA’s #67 prospect when we got him, he promptly turned in a 3.18 ERA at Bowie.
The next year he was BA’s #22 prospect & lowered his ERA to 2.70 while moving up to Norfolk.

From the Land of Pleasant Living...

by OEutaw on Jun 4, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

he didn't have a terrible offseason.

a terrible offseason is signing sammy sosa.

macphail got some cheap bridge players this offseason. some have worked out, many haven’t. but the offseason was by no stretch terrible.

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Jun 4, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

So you are saying it's MacPhail's fault for thinking the team should be built ...

… around Markakis, Jones and Weiters?

You think he is the person in the organization most responsible for the young O’s pressing too much or is in the best position to do something about it?

It is fair to fault the GM for off season FA signings, but if you are going to do that, shouldn’t it be in context with what was available and what was possible? Exactly which prime middle of the order bat was out there for MacPhail to sign and had a reasonable chance of wanting to come to Baltimore?

While it may be no more Trembley’s fault than it is MacPhail’s that Roberts, Reimold and Pie have all been sidelined with injury, at least the manager has the responsibility for getting the most out of the players he does have. I don’t get to see many O’s games, but even after accounting for the fact several guys are playing below expectation, I did get the impression that Trembley wasn’t exactly the sort of manager that helkped more than hurt. Otherwise why would a Trembley WTF post be almost a daily occurance on this site?

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Jun 4, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Markakis, Jones and Wieters

are NOT good enough to build a team around. That’s my issue. They are pieces to complement a team, but they are NOT a core of players on a team that goes to the playoffs. They’re good enough players, but not great. And we need great. At least two. And we have none and no hope of one aside from FA anytime soon, and AM has shown he doesn’t buy impact players in FA.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

AM has shown he doesn’t buy impact players in FA

Bullshit. He has said along he’d by them when the time is right. The time is not right when you’re in the middle of rebuilding, which the last two years have been. If Andy had overspent on the shit free agents avilable this past offseason, I’d be pissed.

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Jun 4, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's just as bullshit to assume it will happen

It seems to me you have this vision of MacPhai picking up the bat at exactly the position we need and the time we need it. That’s fantasy.

by drj on Jun 5, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Impact players like Mark Texiara?

Name an impact player that Baltimore should have acquired in the past two years and didn’t?

From what I can determine, unless you are the New York Yankees, or maybe the Mets, you don’t acquire impact position players. You either draft or grow them. Even Boston depends on developing it’s own talent.

If Markakis Jones and Wieters are not key pieces of a team, then the O’s might as well throw in the towel and admit to being a permenant cellar dweller in the mold of KC and Pittsburgh.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Jun 7, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Adam Dunn

Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck

by O'sFan21 on Jun 7, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I like (kinda) Dunn.

I would say it’s borderline how much of an “impact” player he is.

I would certainly say he’s a better FA signing than Atkins.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Jun 7, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

930 OPS last year is pretty damn impact.

Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck

by O'sFan21 on Jun 7, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Picking one isolated number?

This year Dunn is at .893 and that’s after bumping up his BA with a recent 7 game hitting streak. Compare this to Wiggington who is at .885 (and doing so at about a quarter the cost of Dunn).

However Dunn’s career number is .903. I think it is acceptable to state that any player with a career OPS above .900 should qualify as an impact bat. Which puts Dunn – at .893/.903 – at skirting along the line.

FYI – some other “noted” power hitting 1b men:

Ryan Howard – .792/.948 (career)
Teixeira – .689/911 (career)

And a corner infielder who was available this off sesason:

Beltre – .873/782 (career)

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Jun 7, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point wasn't to say Wiggington was better than Dunn.

It is whether or not Dunn would have been a good signing for the O’s as that “impact” bat anchoring the batting order.

My opinion is that he’s borderline. I would not have objected to MacPhail signing him, but I’m not convinced he would have had a major impact. Wiggy is performing at almost the exact same level and we can see how much impact that has had.

Signing an impact bat this past off season is unlikely to have resulted in something different than what we are seeing now from the O’s.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Jun 8, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well sure, but I'm not sure Pujols would have a noticable impact on this team.

But he was a top 20 OPS hitter available for very cheap that we didn’t sign. They don’t come around often.

Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck

by O'sFan21 on Jun 9, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

re:

I didn’t assign an ordering to who pressed the most. MacPhail was part of the puzzle.

Jones and Wieters were not established coming into this season. To assume they would be a core of a season you declared ’wins and losses matter" was risky. MacPhail himself during his presser on the Trembley firing said he brought in guys to avoid the calamity that is taking place and that they failed. He failed.

There was clamoring for Holliday this off season, but the outfield was ‘set". With Pie and Reimold? Would Holliday be a better bat to help the young guys? Yep. You can question whether now is the right time to spring for him. I think we’ll be having this exact same argument next year and the year after and who knows how long.

You had daily WTF because one guy, who happens to moderate started it because he had a thing about Trembley. BFD.

by drj on Jun 5, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can agree about the "wins and losses matter" statement.

On the other hand, it also needed to be taken with a large grain of salt. What is a GM supposed to say publically? “Hey, guys, let’s not worry about wins. We haven’t given them to you for the last 12 years, so why start thinking about them now? Let’s just go with the flow and see what this season brings.”

There has to be at least some indication that the team intends to compete.

As for Holliday, not that I would have been against signing him, but as I recall that really wasn’t an option. He appeared pretty set on resigning with the Cards.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Jun 7, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Hoes and Avery are evidence of MacPhail's plan

I fear for our future. I didn’t see much out of them at Delmarva AT ALL last year.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Avery is only 20 and does seem to be some big steps forward this year at Frederick

BBs are up 38%, Ks are down K/BB is still poor but down 32% from last year, and is line is .013/.027/+.025

by kba26 on Jun 4, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

They are at high levels for their age holding their own

So they are decent prospects.

But my point on that wasn’t as clear as I could have made it, MacPhail wanted to build through the draft. After round one the college players on the board are there for a reason (low ceiling, injury risk, etc.), so if you want to build through the draft it has to be done through prep players after round one. His first round of draftees aren’t even legal to drink yet, and they still look promising. Basically, the true foundation of his plan isn’t anywhere close to fruition.

"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law

by Reddrummer9187 on Jun 4, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

So long and thanks for all the fish, Dave!

Sorry you got stuck with such shitty teams.

I'm ready for a straight jacket. - Joe Angel, 4/17/10 (O's record: 1-11)

by Eat More Esskay on Jun 4, 2010 11:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Kiko Garcia, dude.

Kiko Garcia.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on Jun 4, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lenn Sakata sounds like a joke, but...

He has served as manager of the Modesto A’s (1989), San Jose Giants (1999, 2001, 2004-2007), Bakersfield Blaze (2000), and Fresno Grizzlies (2002). On May 31, 2007 Sakata notched his 527th victory as a California League manager, setting the record for lifetime wins. Sakata became the farm team manager of the Chiba Lotte Marines in Japan in 2008.

by Delmarvalous Tom on Jun 5, 2010 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The SB Nation blog covering the Baltimore Orioles.

Please read our Community Guidelines

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Dscn6381_small
Oriole Birthday Mantra.
Small
On Being an Oriole Fan in Israel
Wieters_small
The O's and Early Bullpen Usage
Mlb_orioles_wieters_240_small
O-R-I-O-L-E-S! *NOT* Day-O!
Cc_small
Awesome Stuff

Recent FanPosts

Imagescalwmbnw_small
Brian Roberts story continues to unfold
Small
Okay, okay, I give! I'm sucked in!
4fgfgjfxe30x64uwibpb59rg9_small
Help with Baseball Statistics
Small
I have to ask...
091_small
Rooting for the Red Sox
4fgfgjfxe30x64uwibpb59rg9_small
Can we get a broadcasting coach or trainer for Mike Bordick?
Pbr_12_pack_small
Literary Lounge

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Official Sponsor of Camden Chat GameThreads

Tankeray_medium
Tankeray provided by dayzd toe


Bowser

Cc_small Stacey

Koopa Troopas

Baltimore_oriole_avatar_small zknower

P1030831_small 2632

Rainbowsmall_small duck

Esskay_small Eat More Esskay

Youppi-192_small Andrew_G

Goombas

Birdman_small birdman

Thumbnail_small j.q. higgins

Img_0927_small dfa

4840750964_54cdc24eef_small James F

091_small WestcoastO'sFan

2009_june22_philliekid3_small twistedlogic

Yoshi_small PaulFolk