Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Jerry Sandusky's Wife Tries To Run A Reporter Over

On Minority Hiring in Baseball

I was ten years old when the efforts to integrate the management level of baseball began.  On April 6, 1987, the ABC news magazine show "Nightline" had a special honoring the 40th anniversary of Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier in Major League Baseball.  One of the guests on the program was Al Campanis, General Manager of the Dodgers and a former minor league teammate of Robinson.  Host Ted Koppel pressed Campanis on the question of why, forty years after Robinson's debut, there were no blacks working in the Major Leagues as a manager or general manager.  Campanis' response would become infamous:

No, I don't believe it's prejudice, I truly believe that it's just that they may not have some of the necessities to be, let's say, a field manager, or, perhaps, a general manager.

Pressed by Koppel, Campanis expanded on his remarks:

I know that they have wanted to manage, and many of them haven't managed. But they are outstanding athletes, very God-gifted and wonderful people … They are gifted with great musculature (sic) and various other things. They are fleet of foot and this is why there are a number of black ballplayers in the major leagues.

This wasn't some former era of American history.  This was barely twenty years ago.  Campanis, by the way, had made the decision to hire Tommy Lasorda as manager of the Dodgers over Jim Gilliam, the former Negro League star who was Rookie of the Year for the Dodgers in 1953 and was the Dodgers' first hitting coach.

Star-divide

Campanis lasted only two days after those comments as GM of the Dodgers; it would take a lot more, however, to truly integrate the managerial positions in baseball.  Oriole legend Frank Robinson was the first minority manager in the majors, when he was named player-manager of the Cleveland Indians in 1975.  The next year, Bill Lucas was the first African-American to be given the responsibilities of a general manager, although his title with the Braves was Vice President of Player Personnel.  Lucas died in 1979; there would not be another minority general manager in baseball until Bob Watson was named GM of the Astros in 1993, my junior year of high school.  At present, baseball has three minority GMs - Kenny Williams of the White Sox, Tony Reagins of the Angels, and Omar Minaya of the Mets.  This represents more than half of the minorities who have ever served as general managers in the history of baseball.

This disparity has been widely studied, and its persistence can largely be attributed to two factors: unconscious bias and social networks.  These subjects were examined by Brian W. Collins in the New York University Law Review, Vol. 82 (2007) note Tackling Unconscious Bias in Hiring Practices: The Plight of the Rooney Rule:

Although explicit assertions of African Americans’ intellectual inferiority, such as the statements of Campanis and Schott, appear to have waned, many of those in the position to hire head coaches continue to harbor similar stereotypes unconsciously. These decisionmakers function in a largely nondiverse atmosphere, where most of their exposure to African Americans consists of interactions with athletes stigmatized by the image of the so-called "African American Athlete."

People commonly attribute the success of African American athletes solely to natural ability, whereas Caucasian athletes are often depicted as intelligent and hardworking. Early 1990s media reports about four top college basketball players (two African American, two Caucasian) described the African American players as "having the tools" but possessing "questionable" intellect and reserved "[t]he real praise . . . for white players because they have managed to prevail despite . . . their modest athletic endowment." Further, in a USA Today poll of their readers, both Caucasian and African American respondents ranked Caucasian athletes highest for leadership, then thinking, instincts, strength, and speed; African Americans were ranked in the exact opposite order.

The term "old boy" networks describes social networking systems and perceptions allegedly prevalent among certain American communities.  Due in large part to unconscious bias, these networks tend to reinforce traditional power structures by limiting hiring practices and/or business transactions to other elites or acquaintances within the network. African Americans and other minorities are often blocked from these predominantly Caucasian networks not as a result of conscious animus but because there is a "tendency to recognize intellectual power and unusual capacity for [creativity] more easily in persons of one’s own sex and race." While it seems eminently reasonable for a decisionmaker to seek the evaluation of those he or she knows and trusts when making choices from among a number of outstanding candidates, this extensive reliance on mutual friends and colleagues—i.e., other network members—operates "to exclude even those few minorities [who] have managed to surmount the more easily quantifiable barriers to access."

In sports, the "old boy" hiring system excludes African Americans from authoritative positions.  A head coaching vacancy begins with an already short list of candidates, many of whom are acknowledged because of connections the decisionmaker has with others in the sports world.

These forms of discrimination are not merely pernicious and harmful to our society; they are illegal under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits not only intentional discrimination, but also practices that have the effect of discriminating against individuals because of their race, color, national origin, religion, or sex.  The popular narrative of the "Rooney Rule" in the National Football League is that it was done for the purposes of political correctness and public relations.  In fact, the "Rooney Rule" was implemented due to the release of a report on discrimination in coach hiring in the NFL by attorneys Johnnie Cochran Jr. and Cyrus Mehri in 2002, and their announcement that they would be filing a class action suit against NFL franchises for discrimination under Title VII.  The NFL formed the Committee on Workplace Diversity, chaired by Pittsburgh Steelers owner Dan Rooney, as a response to forestall the suit.  The NFL implemented the "Rooney Rule", and Bud Selig issued his directive to consider minority candidates for managing vacancies, because they were concerned about being held liable for breaking the law.  In both sports, these efforts have met with modest success.

Yet less than ten years since the Cochran/Mehri report, these motivations behind these policies have disappeared from the discussion about them in the sports press regarding the Orioles and their search for a permanent replacement for Dave Trembley.  The issue has instead been discussed like this by Dan Connolly of the Baltimore Sun:

There are several issues that have to be worked out before an offer -- and a decision -- is made. One has to do with hiring protocol and whether the Orioles have to formally interview a minority candidate to comply with the commissioner’s directive or if Samuel’s extended tryout as interim is enough.

Or, at more length in this article by the Sun's Jeff Zrebiec:

There has been a lot of talk recently about whether the Orioles need to interview a minority candidate before the expected hiring of Buck Showalter to be the team’s long-term manager.

The short answer is no. Commissioner Bud Selig’s directive, issued in 1999, doesn’t specifically say major league teams must interview minority candidates. It, however, does require that minority candidates are considered when there are job openings at certain positions, like field manager, general manager and other executive posts.

This method of reporting the issue does a disservice to readers, reducing an important attempt to remedy baseball's past and current ills to a procedural hassle, belittling an effort to comply with Federal law to a need to cater to the whim of an unpopular commissioner, and placing at least part of the blame for the lack of action in the finding of a permanent manager on affirmative action.  And considering the particularly sordid history of race, Baltimore, and the Sun, I find it particularly galling.

Despite having the largest population of free blacks of any state prior to the Civil War, in the post-war period, Maryland was one of the most enthusiastic states in passing Jim Crow laws.  Beginning in 1870, Maryland passed fifteen such laws, prohibiting everything from whites and other passengers from sharing the same seating areas on steamboats to making it illegal for a white woman to bear the child of a black or mulatto man (white women who broke the law faced 18 months to five years in prison).  In 1957, only eight years before the trade that would bring Robinson to Baltimore, a law was passed which punished persons who married someone of another race with up to ten years in prison.

But perhaps most exceptional to Baltimore was discrimination in housing.  In 1910, African-American lawyer W. Ashbie Hawkins bought a three-story rowhouse at 1834 McCulloh Street.  This caused a furor, and as a result Baltimore passed the first ever racial zoning ordinance, which quickly spread to other parts of the nation until such ordinances were struck down by the Supreme Court in 1917 in  Buchanan v. Warley (Hawkins was one of the lawyers who argued the case before the Court).  After the ordinance was struck down, Mayor James Preston appointed a Commission on Segregation in 1918, which led to the active promotion by the city of the use of racial covenants to discriminate in housing.

These racial covenants were supported by a wide variety of Baltimore institutions, but perhaps none of them were as influential as the Baltimore Sun.  An editorial published by the Sun in that era read: "The white race is the dominant and superior race, and it will, of course, maintain its supremacy.  The attitude of the Southern man and the attitude of an average Baltimorean toward colored people is one of helpfulness. He sees in them not simply wards of the nation but descendants of those whom he and his ancestors trusted and respected for their loyalty and affection."  Author Antero Pietila, whose book Not in My Neighborhood: How Bigotry Shaped a Modern American City, detailed this history of housing discrimination in Baltimore, discovered that the Sun engaged in numerous deceptions to promote housing covenants, by publishing fraudulent letters to the editor, bogus real estate ads, and even falsely claiming that Mr. Hawkins had depressed real estate values by repeatedly publishing fictional claims of how much he had paid for the McCulloh Street rowhouse.  This helped create a culture of discrimination that lasts today; Maryland is currently the fourth most segregated state in the United States, and only five years ago a Federal judge ruled against the Department of Housing and Urban Development in a suit by the Maryland ACLU, determining that HUD in Maryland failed in its duty to affirmatively further fair housing, set out in §3608 of the Fair Housing Act.

In light of this history, it is unsurprising that when Frank Robinson arrived in Baltimore in 1965, he was less than thrilled

This was 1958. I was starting my third season in the majors, and the Reds were playing our way up north near the end of spring training. That's how it was done in those days. We'd play exhibition games on the way north from Florida to Cincinnati. 

When we got to Baltimore, it was raining, and I told my roommate, Brooks Lawrence, that I was going to a movie. 

"You're going where?"

I thought he was puzzled because I was talking about going out in the rain. 

"I'm goin' to a movie," I said. "There's one just down the way."

"Really?"

So I walked down to the theater and got on line. 

This is 1958 now. I'm in the big leagues for a few years, remember? I put my money down. 

"One, please."

"We don't serve blacks."

"What?" 

"We don't allow blacks in the theater."

I take my money back, and now I'm really pissed. I go back to the hotel, open the door, and Brooks Lawrence takes one look at my face and starts laughing so hard he falls off the bed. He's just howlin'!

He knew it. He just didn't tell me. 

I got all over him. All over him. 

"Why didn't you tell me?" 

"Hey," he said, "sometimes you gotta learn the hard way."

It left a bad taste in my mouth. Seven years after that, when I learned I'd been traded to Baltimore, that moment came right back to me. All I could think was, I've got to move to Baltimore, and I'm not gonna be able to go to the movies.

Robinson, who was not politically active early in his career, refused to join the Baltimore NAACP when he first arrived, but changed his mind after experiencing Baltimore's housing discrimination firsthand.  As the first minority manager of the Orioles, Robinson added to his list of "firsts" by becoming the first non-white manager to be named Manager of the Year in 1989.

Baltimore, like baseball, has a complicated and fraught racial history.  As the home of both H.L. Mencken and Thurgood Marshall, how could it not?  Peter Angelos, who has run for Mayor of Baltimore and three times for the Maryland Legislature, ought to understand that.  Andy MacPhail, himself a beneficiary of baseball's "old boy" network, ought to understand how the network that gave him a place in baseball from birth has kept other worthy people out of the game.  And the writers and editors of the Sun, serving the city with the sixth largest black population in America, where over 70% of residents are minorities, have an obligation to report the story in a manner that provides its readers with a context that explains why this is important to Major League Baseball.

That is what it is going to take for us to put the legacies of Ashbie Hawkins, Tom Yawkey, Marge Schott and Al Campanis behind us.  It is important.  Not more important than hiring the right manager, who will help our team grow and recover from the awfulness of the past 13 seasons.  But it is not a formality, not a meaningless obligation, and not something which should be casually brushed aside.  It is about who we are, where we came from, and who we want to be.

Comment 50 comments  |  5 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

It would have been interesting...

…but from the NFL’s perspective, I’m sure that the damages from having Cochran trashing your league would have been considerable even if they won.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jul 26, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

While I'm sure the details aren't all that important

I’d really like to know more about Frank Robinson’s instance of housing discrimination. It would probably just make me sick, but even still. This big star comes to Baltimore and leads them to their first world series and then he can’t even live where he wants.

Oh and now we’re warming up Uehara. He’ll die. He will actually DIE if he pitches in this heat. -KenDixonFanClub

by Stacey on Jul 26, 2010 11:03 AM EDT reply actions  

About all I know of the details...

…is that Robinson described the problems of finding housing in Baltimore as a motivation for his political activism, and that he hired realtor Malcom Sherman, who is known for having been a strong advocate of housing desegregation and worked for Jim Rouse’s Rouse Co, to purchase him a house in a white neighborhood in 1966. Rouse of course was the developer who designed Cross Keys and Columbia intentionally as multi-ethnic communities.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jul 26, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the info, JP

Ugh. Reading stuff like that makes me feel physically ill.

Oh and now we’re warming up Uehara. He’ll die. He will actually DIE if he pitches in this heat. -KenDixonFanClub

by Stacey on Jul 26, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

I really do wonder how much consideration has been given by Andy MacPhail on this issue. We have the flip comments from the Sun about how it’s basically just another hoop to jump, but we haven’t actually heard anything directly from the Orioles. I know they can’t talk much about the hiring and interviewing process obviously, but there has to be something that can said about it to gauge their attitude.

Oh and now we’re warming up Uehara. He’ll die. He will actually DIE if he pitches in this heat. -KenDixonFanClub

by Stacey on Jul 26, 2010 11:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Well, there are really only two possibilities:

Either the Sun has its own agenda which they are trying to push, or the Sun has a source within the club who is pushing this angle. MASN and Britt haven’t reported on this, so those are really the only two possibilities.

But the Orioles don’t have a great record here. Ray Miller was hired from within after Johnson was fired. Perlozzo was hired after being promoted on an interim basis while he was the bench coach; no open hiring process was undertaken. Trembley was hired after being promoted from bullpen coach when Perlozzo was fired; no open hiring process was undertaken. MacPhail himself was hired days after Joe Foss retired without an open hiring process being conducted.

So, based on their history, this has not been a priority for the club.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jul 26, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

If anything the Orioles probably show why stepping outside the box can't hurt.

When the organization’s infected with a crappy culture of losing, maybe that’s the time to stop hiring guys already in the organization.

Baltimore is Baltimore. That's kind of what I know. - Manny Machado, 6/7/10

by Eat More Esskay on Jul 26, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

If I recall correctly

didn’t Robby try to get housing in Baltimore when he was traded and was confused for Brooks over the phone, only to later be told he couldn’t have it? There’s a truth somewhere in there, I just can’t remember it particularly clearly.

Great read, James. Really great stuff. Of course, taking aim at the Sun’s reporting can be (not always, of course, but it can be) shooting fish in a barrel with a gatling gun.

I can't describe the way it feels...

by Andrew_G on Jul 26, 2010 12:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Unfortunately, it's not just the Sun's reporting.

News media in our society is in institutional decline. If the papers, magazines radios or news shows or broadcasts get an important story or issue right, it’s almost shocking. We are living in a dying culture.

"MONTANEZ: Alas! I cannot hit. Deal with it."
-Eat More Esskay

by flaggthecat on Jul 26, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Rooney Rule in baseball would not be a bad thing at all.

Anything that sticks it to the old boy network is probably going to be alright with me. I watched an NFL analyst one time talking about the Rooney Rule and why it’s a good thing, and his point was that whenever there’s a head coaching vacancy it just seems like it’s the same pool of guys getting interviews. Once you’re identified as a potential head coach you can interview any vacancy you want more or less, until you find an organization you like that likes you. So if every vacancy they have to interview a minority candidate, and the name is in the press and subject to the usual news cycle discussion ad nauseum, then you’re getting those minority candidates on the perpetual short list.

I really don’t understand how this could be a drawback to any given organization at all. So you have to call in a guy you wouldn’t have interviewed otherwise… so what? Maybe he will blow you away in his interview and you will find someone whose presence will benefit the team more than that other schmuck you were already set on hiring.

To what extent the same process plays out in baseball, I am not certain. When it comes to ex-coaches who still want to manage again, it seems like they get linked to every possible job opening – witness Bobby V and Buck Showalter with the O’s search, for that matter. But there’s not really jobs in baseball that are the equivalent of the offensive/defensive coordinator positions where you get hot commodity future managers who can interview for anything they want. Plus I guess mid-season coach changes are more unusual in football. Hell, what’s his face in Detroit didn’t get fired until after the 0-16 season, right?

With baseball you don’t have guys going back and forth between college and the pros either, like you see with basketball and football head coaches. I don’t know if that “perpetual short list” effect is the same with this sport.

What’s a mystery to me about the Sun quotes concerning our current managerial search is this: if there’s any question at all about whether or not the O’s are bound to interview a minority candidate, why not just give Juan Samuel an interview on the next off day and be done with it? Get him in a room, let him articulate what he thinks about the state of the team and what he’d do about it to improve the poor attitude, and then you’ve satisfied that obligation and don’t need to whine about it to the press any more. It is, if nothing else, a symbolic gesture that costs you absolutely nothing.

Here’s a hypothetical to consider. Suppose the interim manager wasn’t Juan Samuel but was like… Rick Kranitz instead. If the Orioles were required to interview a minority candidate at that point, who would they interview? Do they talk to T-Bone Shelby knowing they’ll never hire him the same way they always talk to Rick Dempsey? That would be pretty insulting. But in the middle of a baseball season there aren’t going to be a lot of external candidates either.

So baseball would probably have to have some rules in place to facilitate access to say, the bench coach of the Atlanta Braves or the AAA manager of the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, even during the middle of a season. Otherwise teams are handicapped from making a change that they probably need to make. Like the Orioles right now, who really, really, really need to get outside of the organization to bring in someone to shake things up and kick some asses.

I think if it was a priority for the game of baseball, they could come up with a policy that is fair to both teams and potential minority coaching candidates. The fact that it isn’t a priority is unfortunate, but, well, maybe some day.

Baltimore is Baltimore. That's kind of what I know. - Manny Machado, 6/7/10

by Eat More Esskay on Jul 26, 2010 12:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, the Rooney Rule has its own problems...

…for exactly some of the reasons you point out – who wants to be a token interview for a job you aren’t really in the running for?

This is what happened, in fact, in the only punished violation of the Rooney Rule. The Lions came out and said they wanted to hire Steve Mariucci, and then tried to schedule interviews with minority candidates, who for obvious reasons, refused the interviews. So the Lions were punished primarily for being honest about their intentions. Further, at the time, the Lions had one of the most integrated coaching staffs in the NFL.

I think that rules are a bad way to go for most things. I’d have no real objection to a Rooney Rule in baseball, but it won’t solve the problem. You need to have a real and genuine commitment to diversity. You need to have awareness of your own biases, and care about overcoming them, both for your own benefit and the benefit of your organization and the community it represents.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jul 26, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Certainly what you say needs to happen is the ideal situation. I would say that rules are what actually needs to happen, however. The situation exists because the people involved don’t have a real and genuine commitment to diversity. They can’t be made to have one, and they will probably never have one. Nor will the next generation, and so on into the foreseeable future.

Thus, rules are the only way we could conceivably fix the situation. The alternative is to leave it up to the people whose behavior we already know about—people whose behavior is the problem.

The argument is the same in capitalism. It is unfeasible to allow large, powerful financial firms and corporations to act however they want, hoping that they will act ethically. It never happens, and it is the fallacy of our time.

"MONTANEZ: Alas! I cannot hit. Deal with it."
-Eat More Esskay

by flaggthecat on Jul 26, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

trusting people/corporations...

to act against what they perceive to be their own best interest.

eesh.

At all hazards, a man must keep up appearances. Dignity, I say. Dignity above all, Governor. Hear, hear!

-Det. William "Bunk" Moreland

by j.q. higgins on Jul 26, 2010 7:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The problem is that you can't make a rule that can't be cheated

At the end of the day, if the fans care about diversity, the teams will. And either the teams choose to do it, or else the best case is that it is solved through litigation. Because things like the “Rooney Rule” aren’t getting the job done.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jul 26, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

The writer implies that hiring Lasorda over Gilliam was a bad idea?

He compiled a 1,599-1,439 record as Dodgers manager, won two World Series championships in (1981 and 1988), four National League pennants and eight division titles in his 20 year career as the Dodgers manager.

His 16 wins in 30 NL Championship games managed were the most of any manager at the time of his retirement. His 61 post-season games managed ranks fourth all-time behind Bobby Cox, Casey Stengel and Joe Torre.

Not to mention Gilliam died in 1978, which would have been just 2 years into his tenure. Of course Campanis couldn’t have known this, but if we are going to grade in retrospect it counts. Campanis absolutely made the correct call in hiring Tommy Lasorda.

by Delmarvalous Tom on Jul 26, 2010 1:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Don't want to speak for James...

but I don’t think he was suggesting Lasorda was a bad idea, just that his (Campanis’) bias against black managerial candidates came into play.

by TerroristFistJab on Jul 26, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even if it was the right call,

 if it was made for the wrong reason it is still illustrative of what is a major problem in sports.

by kba26 on Jul 26, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

It would make the point better to point out a success story...

The teams that passed on Cito Gaston, for example, who has 2 rings. Or Dusty Baker who won the N.L. Manager of the Year award, by leading the Giants to a 103–59 record, which was 31 games better than their 72–90 finish the previous year. Of course you could turn to football and talk about Tomlin, Dungy or Lovie Smith, who have all coached in the Super Bowl. Instead, we’re presented with a decision that was correct and did nothing but good things for the team.

I would never want the Orioles to make a race based decision on anything, but if hiring Tommy Lasorda was a bad decision or a correct decision for wrong reasons, I’d like to see the O’s follow that kind of logic sans racism, because we haven’t had anyone in the dugout that could coach with Lasorda in a long time.

by Delmarvalous Tom on Jul 26, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Dusty Baker is the face of minority coaches,

things are worse than I thought. Dusty Baker should be passed over for managing an office softball team.

by kba26 on Jul 26, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

who made him "the face" of minority hiring?

But you do or at least should acknowledge that Dusty had some talent. How long have we waited for a manager to guide us to a winning record? Dusty gave the Giants a total turn around. It was amazing! I could only wish I, as an Orioles fan, would experience such a thing in the next year.

by Delmarvalous Tom on Jul 26, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dusty's also ruined numerous pitchers

and said a focus on OBP just “clogs up the basepaths.” I wouldn’t want him anyone near the Orioles.

by kba26 on Jul 26, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hiring Tommy Lasorda is what happened

I am not trying to argue that the Dodgers should not have hired Tommy Lasorda. I am trying to argue that the bias of Campanis and others in baseball had real consequences for real people.

It isn’t about hiring a minority manager for the sake of hiring a minority manager. If the Orioles hire Juan Samuel on a permanent basis, I will be leading the charge to burn the Warehouse in effigy. It is about the importance of a commitment to diversity, in part because of the long litany of people in baseball who have held a commitment to preventing diversity.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jul 26, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

and in fairness

I should say that I agree with the article. This was the one talking point I didn’t see discussed that I wanted to bring up. It shouldn’t be seen as a dismissal of the rest of this fine effort.

by Delmarvalous Tom on Jul 26, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Color Blind hiring

Really in this day and age, I doubt any old-boy system is effectively seeking to keep blacks (or latin, or asian) players out of the managerial ranks. The ‘social networking’ explanation might explain why many team owners wouldn’t have anyone but the same few names on their list to hire. However, in this climate, the pressure to win is enormous: teams will hire the person who can win, regardless of their color. You can examine the disparities of how many players are represented at what rank, but that proves nothing about how they got there or how they would succeed as a coach. I.e, “disparity” does not equal “discrimination”; disparity is the word we use when there is no actual proof of discrimination. I love the current mix in MLB of all baseball cultures, it is a meritocracy so to speak, and when we well meaning elites get our fingers in the pie it is going to be a mess. The Rooney rule in particular is a nice idea, but an insult to minorities of all stripes. (Next we will be enforcing a quota rule on players, why not? New rule: every catcher in MLB must be Dominican.)

by Jonahsdive on Jul 26, 2010 3:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Hiring practices do not need to be intentionally discriminatory to be illegal

disparity does equal discrimination when theres not a legitimate purpose for the system that results in the disparity.

by kba26 on Jul 26, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Several points:
I doubt any old-boy system is effectively seeking to keep blacks (or latin, or asian) players out of the managerial ranks.

I disagree. These networks probably do not intend to keep people out for racial reasons, at least not anymore. However, they do want, very much, to limit the new entrants to the networks, because it dilutes the value of membership. This has the effect of discrimination due to past discrimination; there simply aren’t going to be many “old boys” managing in the minors for decades like Dave Trembley who are not white, due to discrimination when these people first became minor league managers.

However, in this climate, the pressure to win is enormous: teams will hire the person who can win, regardless of their color.

I don’t believe that teams know who the person is who can win. I don’t think they have much of an idea about it at all, and I suspect most of their ideas about who the people are who can “win” are incorrect. But we still have trouble quantitatively identifying the value of catcher defense; I have no belief that we can do a very good job of isolating the value of a manager to a team.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jul 26, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Makes no ¢

Sounds a little bizarre. Teams don’t know who can win? Of course no one is clairvoyant in foretelling the future, but when hiring we use real reasons – experience, personal integrity, philosophy, their records in similar positions, who is actually available and seeking the position… to say the owners/GMs are just guessing based on their racist playbook is silly. Any evidence for that, other than a few anecdotal statements made by an owner a few decades ago? Of course you may have different criteria for hiring than they do, but just maybe they have a better idea of what makes a winning team than the average fan (me). (Not the case in Baltimore—the average fan has a much better idea than Angelos)

by Jonahsdive on Jul 26, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is not football...

…the role of a baseball manager is much more subdued and limited in its impact.

by Jonny Pops on Jul 26, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

One thing has nothing to do with another

First of all, I haven’t said one word to suggest that the Orioles, Andy MacPhail, or Peter Angelos are racists. Not one word.

Second, even if the owners and General Managers were all racists, that wouldn’t mean that they could tell, in my opinion, which white managers were going to win and which ones weren’t either. Joe Torre had a losing record after nearly 2000 games – 894 wins and 1,003 losses – before the Yankees hired him. I have yet to find the person who knows what makes for a good baseball manager with any high degree of certainty.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jul 26, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Author Antero Pietila, whose book Not in My Neighborhood: How Bigotry Shaped a Modern American City, detailed this history of housing discrimination in Baltimore, discovered that the Sun engaged in numerous deceptions to promote housing covenants, by publishing fraudulent letters to the editor, bogus real estate ads, and even falsely claiming that Mr. Hawkins had depressed real estate values by repeatedly publishing fictional claims of how much he had paid for the McCulloh Street rowhouse.

If anybody is interested American Apartheid: Segregation and the Making of the Underclass by Massey and Denton is considered the classic in residential segregation in the social sciences. It’s brilliant and I highly recommend it.

As far as the fan post goes, is there any trend data looking at the number of minority managers in the big leagues in the last 30 years? Interesting read James. You’ve definitely put together some great thoughts.

Don't mess with the bull, young man. You'll get the horns.

by birdman on Jul 26, 2010 4:40 PM EDT reply actions  

There is a 2009 study...

…by the Institute for Diversity and Ethics In Sport that you can read here (PDF).

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jul 26, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

i can read the executive summary but i'm getting an error message for the rest of the report
MLB started the 2009 season with ten managers of color, equaling their historic best of 10 in 2002.

I will say that 10 managers of color isn’t bad at all. In fact, I think that’s quite good. No Asian managers except for Seattle. Booooo!

Don't mess with the bull, young man. You'll get the horns.

by birdman on Jul 26, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

The numbers are lower now

Since Cecil Cooper and Fredi Gonzalez have been fired. And one of those managers of color is Lou Pinella.

But no, it isn’t bad.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jul 26, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

but...

fredi Gonzalez has been replaced by altino at least on an interim basis.

At all hazards, a man must keep up appearances. Dignity, I say. Dignity above all, Governor. Hear, hear!

-Det. William "Bunk" Moreland

by j.q. higgins on Jul 26, 2010 7:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

and DT has been replaced by Samuel, obviously that won't last though.

but technically, the numbers haven’t changed since 2009.

As far as the old boy’s network goes, if the O’s want an experienced manager, then that’s going bias them toward the old boy’s network which is disproportionately white for historical reasons, as James as pointed out very eloquently. Look, it would be nice if the O’s hired a minority manager but I don’t think they should feel obligated to do so because of the city’s demographics. Just like I don’t feel like Dodgers should hire an Asian or Latino manager because of the city’s demographics. I just hope the O’s hire the “best” person for the job.

Don't mess with the bull, young man. You'll get the horns.

by birdman on Jul 26, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

totally agree with that

But if they only stick to the old boys network and don’t explore all possibilities, they may not get the right man for the job because they never talked to him.

Oh and now we’re warming up Uehara. He’ll die. He will actually DIE if he pitches in this heat. -KenDixonFanClub

by Stacey on Jul 26, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

sure

But is there an experienced minority manager who’s available that we should have interviewed? Don Baylor is the only name that comes to mind immediately.

Don't mess with the bull, young man. You'll get the horns.

by birdman on Jul 26, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Willie Randolph?

Oh and now we’re warming up Uehara. He’ll die. He will actually DIE if he pitches in this heat. -KenDixonFanClub

by Stacey on Jul 26, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Willie hasn't really managed much

Don't mess with the bull, young man. You'll get the horns.

by birdman on Jul 26, 2010 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

He managed the Mets for 3.5 years

Oh and now we’re warming up Uehara. He’ll die. He will actually DIE if he pitches in this heat. -KenDixonFanClub

by Stacey on Jul 27, 2010 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hope the Orioles hire the best person too...

..as I said in the story.

At the same time, the Orioles do not have a single minority or woman in their executive staff either. To put this in perspective, the Marlins, Mets, Angels, White Sox, Braves, Nationals, Astros, Diamondbacks, Tigers, Red Sox, Rangers, Padres, Giants, Blue Jays, Dodgers, Yankees, Mariners, Rockies, Athletics, Brewers, Twins, Reds, and Pirates do. We are fans of one of the clubs in baseball that has made the least commitment to diversity in all our executive positions.

To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa

by James F on Jul 26, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes, i completely agree.

Don't mess with the bull, young man. You'll get the horns.

by birdman on Jul 27, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ugh

Makes me think of the awful class where I had to read that.

Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck

by O'sFan21 on Jul 26, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The SB Nation blog covering the Baltimore Orioles.

Please read our Community Guidelines

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

100_1952_small
Mike Flanagan's Father Delivers Acceptance Speech
Gamecock4_small
THE BULLPEN: BALTIMORE
Wieters_small
OT: CC Fantasy Baseball Keeper League

Recent FanPosts

Virginiatechvtlogo_small
Luck and sports: A 1000-year look at the 1977 American League
Fixed_small
Keith Law On Dylan Bundy
Small
Mistake in going to arbitration with Jones
Small
Korea and the O's
Southpark11_small
Traveling to Baltimore
Bflag4_small
2012: All the O's need to do is beat low expectations
Small
Bowden tweet on DD and Manny

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Official Sponsor of Camden Chat GameThreads

Tankeray_medium
Tankeray provided by dayzd toe


Bowser

Flanny_small Stacey

Koopa Troopas

Baltimore_oriole_avatar_small zknower

P1030831_small 2632

Rainbowsmall_small duck

Esskay_small Eat More Esskay

610x_small Andrew_G

Goombas

Reynolds_small birdman

Thumbnail_small j.q. higgins

Img_0927_small dfa

4840750964_54cdc24eef_small James F

091_small WestcoastO'sFan

2009_june22_philliekid3_small twistedlogic