25 for 25: Orioles

by Solanus on Aug 19, 2010 8:50 PM EDT

I'm actually a St. Louis Cardinals fan, but over the past few months I've been working on a roster for each franchise in the majors, composed of players over the last 25 years. The way this works is that I pick one player from each season and I have to fill out an entire roster (for AL teams, 2 catchers, 2 infielders at each position, 5 total outfielders, one designated hitter, 5 starting pitchers, 4 relievers). I can't take more than one player for each year, I have to take one player each season even in the bad years, and I can't use the same player for multiple positions or years. If a player played the majority of his games at one position, I can't use that season for another position even if he's played it before. And I used basic minimums of 60 innings or 250 PA's (prorated for strike seasons).

The interesting part with this are the decisions that have to be made, whether it is, "Dang, there are some really nice outfielder seasons to choose from, who gets left out?", or, "Does this team even have two decent catchers in a 25-year span?", or, "This guy had so many great years - which one do I choose?" Sometimes a great year gets left out, sometimes a fluke, partial season gets tabbed for the team. I actually posted a fully researched extended version for the Cardinals from 1910 to 1934. (I was thinking about doing something similar for the St. Louis Browns for the same era, but was (surprise!) sidetracked.)

You're welcome to pick apart my choices and make suggestions of your own. I'm looking forward to hearing from everybody.

C – Mickey Tettleton (1989), Chris Hoiles (1993)

1B – Eddie Murray (1985), Rafael Palmeiro (1995)

2B – Roberto Alomar (1996), Brian Roberts (2009)

3B – Tony Batista (2002), Melvin Mora (2005)

SS – Cal Ripken Jr. (1991), Miguel Tejada (2004)

OF – Fred Lynn (1986), Larry Sheets (1987), Brady Anderson (1992), Eric Davis (1998), Nick Markakis (2008)

DH – Harold Baines (1999)

SP – Mike Mussina (1994), Jimmy Key (1997), Jose Mercedes (2000), Sidney Ponson (2003), Eric Bedard (2007)

RP – Dave Schmidt (1988), Gregg Olson (1990), Buddy Groom (2001), Chris Ray (2006)

Notable exceptions: Javy Lopez (2004), Randy Milligan (1990), Mike Bordick (1999), Albert Belle (1999), B.J. Surhoff (1999), Aubrey Huff (2008), Ben McDonald (1993), Rodrigo Lopez (2004), Jeremy Guthrie (2008), Mark Eichhorn (1994), Randy Myers (1997)

FanPosts are user-created content and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Camden Chat or SB Nation. They might, though.

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Comments

Just eyeballed your list quickly and it looks good, but I do have a few suggestions.
I think you’d definitely have to go with 2005 for Roberts. Every meaningful statistical category (except baserunning) dwarfs his 2009.
Also, gotta think BJ Ryan from 04 or 05(they’re pretty much the same unless you’re leaning on saves heavily) has to be on here as well.

by Just Regular 33 on Aug 19, 2010 11:33 PM EDT reply actions

Roberts gets screwed a bit

He had several good seasons that got superceded by others and had to make do with ‘09. Ryan gets bumped altogether by Tejada and Mora, but the bullpen usually gets stuck with some fill-in-the-gap seasons and can’t get all of the good ones.

I was reading about how countless species are being pushed toward extinction by man's destruction of forests. Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. - Calvin, Scientific Progress Goes "Boink", Watterson

by Solanus on Aug 20, 2010 6:52 AM EDT up reply actions

third base is no good

I think the Mora date is just a typo; it was 2004 when he had his truly awesome season. Tony Batista’s season in 2002 was smoke and mirrors. People see 30+ HR and 100+ RBI and think he was better than he was. His OBP that season was barely .300 and he couldn’t take a walk to save his life. Plus his defense was atrocious.

I guess given all of your rules it might be hard to make a change, but I can’t stand the idea of Batista being recognized for that season.

by Stacey on Aug 20, 2010 12:20 AM EDT reply actions

Maybe Leo Gomez (‘92 or ’94), or BJ Surhoff (’96).
Although, unfortunately, they’re not much better than Batista’s ’02, which comes along with a surprising positive defensive value (via B-Ref.com).

by Just Regular 33 on Aug 20, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions

via Fan Graphs he sucked

although I just went and looked at his stats and I think my memory of him is actually a weird hybrid of 2002 and 2003.

by Stacey on Aug 20, 2010 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions

Let’s just agree that no O’s fan in their right mind thinks much of that pre-game, dancing fool.
That’s certainly not the case for BJ, nor, in my case, Leo(I think it was the glasses that made me such a fan.)

by Just Regular 33 on Aug 20, 2010 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions

You should see the stink the Mets fans gave me for picking Bonilla in 1993

Or Phillies fans over my picking Jose Mesa in ‘01 over Lidge’s perfect 2008 (had to take Hamels in ‘08). Or even suggesting to the Cubbies that LaTroy Hawkins should be the guy in 2004 (picked Alou, but he was in the running). I look at these seasons and players objectively, and don’t get drug down by bad feelings or over-promote fan favorites. I do try to find a spot for guys that had 5 or more good seasons, but otherwise I just go where the numbers tell me.

by Solanus on Aug 20, 2010 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions

2004 is better for Mora

But that is Tejada’s great season, so I have to bump Mora to ’05.

As for Batista, he was your 2nd best third baseman in the last 25 years, going by WAR & WARP1 numbers. (I use the Baseball-Reference WAR numbers because Fangraphs only goes back to 2002.) The list of best seasons starts with Mora ‘04, Mora ’05, then Batista ’02 (followed by Gomez ’94, Ripken ’99, & Rayford ’85). Gomez gets bumped by Mussina, Cal is your shortstop and Rayford can’t touch Murray – it’s just the way it works. Plus the options in 2002 aren’t the greatest (Jorge Julio was good, but I can’t grab a reliever for every sub-par year).

by Solanus on Aug 20, 2010 6:50 AM EDT up reply actions

that's why this is weird

and hard to evaluate. But I will fight against Tony Batista until the day I die.

by Stacey on Aug 20, 2010 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions

The best thing that I can suggest

Is that you try an eyeball-level version of this and come up with a team on your own. It helps to look at numbers to refresh/correct your memory, but given about 1.5 hours you can probably work one up for comparison.

by Solanus on Aug 20, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't really see the point, honestly

It doesn’t prove anything or give any kind of analysis.

by Stacey on Aug 20, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Jose Mercedes has got to go!
Even as bad as the O’s starting pitching has been the last 25 years, a starting pitcher with a 1/1 K/BB ratio (even if it comes with 14-7 W/L) can not be in the top 5.
Scott Erickson was nice in ‘98.
Think I’d also go with Mussina’s ‘97 over ’94, but Moose had so many good years it’s tough to choose.

by Just Regular 33 on Aug 20, 2010 1:04 AM EDT reply actions

2000 is not good for you guys

Jose Mercedes is the best of a bad lot other than Mussina, who is already spoken for. The next 5 guys on the list after Mercedes are Charles Johnson (good, but crowded out at catcher), Sidney Ponson (worse than Mercedes), Delino DeShields, Mike Bordick & Will Clark (all three not good enough to challenge). There’s not even a reliever who is decent.

Sometime you just get stuck with a “bad” player.

by Solanus on Aug 20, 2010 6:59 AM EDT up reply actions

Totally my bad!
I missed the part in the rules where only one player for the whole team can come from each calendar year.
Given that constraint, I appreciate the time and effort on this even more.

by Just Regular 33 on Aug 20, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Mussina was better in 1994

I extrapolated the strike years to bring them up to even with the rest of the era and Mike’s ’94 is just the best season by a starting pitcher the Orioles have had in the last 25 years. His ’97 is possibly his 6th best, at least going by WAR/WARP1 numbers. Plus I need that year for Jimmy Key and could have used it for Randy Myers, B.J. Surhoff, or Scott Erickson as well.

by Solanus on Aug 20, 2010 7:05 AM EDT up reply actions

I see the numbers you’re using to say ‘94 was better than ’97, but they don’t seem to add up to me.
‘94-6.3 K/9IP, 2.4 BB/9IP, 1.1 HR/9IP, Fangraphs FIP-4.14
’97-8.7 K/9IP, 2.2 BB/9IP, 1.1 HR/9IP, FG’s FIP-3.49
Plus, I think most of us here regard his dominance in the ‘97 playoffs as the best thing we’ve seen in the last 25 years. I know it’s not relevant statistically, but what’s a “best of” team without some feelings.
Not really questioning which of his years fit into your intricate puzzle, nor your WAR figures(which differ depending on what site you use), nor you WARP1 (which I rarely look at.)
Just trying to show that the case for ’97 over ’94 is pretty strong.

by Just Regular 33 on Aug 20, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions

I would change out

Jose Mercedes (2000) for Jeff Ballard (1989)… that would remove Mickey Tettleton (1989) and I would replace him with Charles Johnson (2000). He had a surprisingly good year for us that year, even though he split between us and the White Sox.

by tflach2 on Aug 20, 2010 8:18 AM EDT reply actions

I agree. Ballard should be on the list for that effort in '89.

"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." ~ The Dude

by PBR me ASAP! on Aug 20, 2010 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions

Ballard's not a bad choice

I happen to find Tettleton very interesting and it is a great year for him. You could go with Ballard in ’89 and switch in Johnson in ’00. Or stay with Johnson, move Olson back to ’89 for his better season and bring in Ben McDonald in ’90.

From a WAR/WARP1/ERA+ standpoint, Ballard really isn’t any better than Mercedes. His K/BB isn’t any better and the K/9 is worse. Ballard just has the wins that Mercedes doesn’t.

by Solanus on Aug 20, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah it would be a travesty

to leave out Tettleton. His and Julio Franco’s were the batting stances that we imitated the most when we were playing whiffle ball back in the day. We’d jam big wads of chewing gum in our cheek, stand straight up, and let the bat just dangle facing backwards… then swing as hard as we could. Of course, we never hit the ball from that stance, and I’m still kinda surprised that he was able to with any regularity.

I made the suggestion without even looking at the peripheral stats. I am surprised that Ballard has such awful metrics when his W/L and ERA (and just a rememberance of that season) paints a different picture. But still, that was a magical year by an otherwise useless major league pitcher, and definitely one of the most memorable pitching performances in the last 25 years, even if it was luck more than anything else.

I would have forgotten that Jose Mercedes even existed if you hadn’t mentioned him here, so I would go out of my way to remove him from the list, if it were mine to manipulate.

by tflach2 on Aug 20, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions

How did you come up with this? Are other people doing it?

What are you going to do with them once they are finished?

Rub some $100 bills on it, you sell-out. -duck

by O'sFan21 on Aug 20, 2010 11:16 AM EDT reply actions

I've posted the entire National League

At the individual SB Nation websites (link off my name and check out the Fan Posts), while this Orioles roster is the first I’ve published so far of the junior circuit. I have the entire AL East ready to go, along with the Angels and Athletics, but it takes a bit of time to get it done. The rosters themselves are 8-10 hours apiece, so it’ll be somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 hours of work when I’m done, plus answering comments on the SBN websites.

I had seen a couple people do this on the STL site Viva El Birdos; they’d seen somebody else do it. My real goal is to complete the rest of the century with fully detailed entries like the “extended version” listed above (that took about 35-40 hours by itself). I started this back in December when I was out of work and find it strangely compelling, actually doing this sometimes instead of playing computer games at home.

I hope you guys enjoy this and that someone takes up the mantle of looking up the old teams (60-84, 35-59, 10-34). It is really interesting to look at the old players and learn about the history of the franchise. I learned a ton while doing my research, like Pete Alexander and Austin McHenry and Doc Lavan.

by Solanus on Aug 20, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions