Community Projections vs. Reality, Round Three: The Rotation
Over the last couple of days, we've looked at how the Camden Chat community's aggregate projections for the infield and the outfield stacked up against reality. Today, it's time to close out our little projection retrospective by looking at what we picked for the starting rotation. These picks were made from posts ranging from January 27 through to March 3. A lot happened after March 3. We did not even do predictions for Zach Britton, because there we did not expect to see him until June or so.
Here were our projections for the rotation. Remember, these are the mean numbers of submissions from all participating Camden Chatters.
| GS | IP | ERA | HR | BB | K | WHIP | |
| Jake Arrieta | 27 | 159 | 4.24 | 17 | 63 | 113 | 1.36 |
| Brad Bergesen | 28 | 172 | 4.16 | 19 | 45 | 94 | 1.33 |
| Justin Duchscherer | 14 | 83 | 3.42 | 8 | 25 | 64 | 1.35 |
| Jeremy Guthrie | 32 | 205 | 3.83 | 25 | 55 | 124 | 1.26 |
| Brian Matusz | 32 | 192 | 3.60 | 17 | 60 | 163 | 1.24 |
| Chris Tillman | 19 | 109 | 4.35 | 16 | 45 | 73 | 1.40 |
That was then, when we were arguing over things like whether signing Vlad would be enough to get 82 wins, and if getting 82 wins mattered. This is what it looked like after a 69-93 season:
| GS | IP | ERA | HR | BB | K | WHIP | |
| Jake Arrieta | 22 | 119.1 | 5.05 | 21 | 59 | 93 | 1.46 |
| Brad Bergesen | 12 | 62.1 | 5.78 | 9 | 20 | 35 | 1.57 |
| Justin Duchscherer | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| Jeremy Guthrie | 32 | 203.2 | 4.37 | 26 | 64 | 126 | 1.35 |
| Brian Matusz | 12 | 49.2 | 10.69 | 18 | 24 | 38 | 2.11 |
| Chris Tillman | 13 | 62 | 5.52 | 5 | 25 | 46 | 1.65 |
If you want to know why the Orioles stunk in 2011, the rotation may be the biggest reason why. The O's as a staff had a 5.39 starter ERA, the worst in MLB by more than half a run than the second-worst; first place in the AL was the Rays with 3.53. O's starters threw only 881 innings, the least in MLB with more than 40 innings fewer than the second-worst; first place in the AL was again the Rays with 1,058 IP by starters.
The numbers I posted include only appearances as a starter. We predicted 920 innings from these six pitchers combined. In reality, they threw a total of 497 innings. Seven other Orioles started games for whom we did no predictions: Britton (28 GS), Alfredo Simon (16 GS), Tommy Hunter (11 GS), Chris Jakubauskas (6 GS), Jo-Jo Reyes (5 GS), Mitch Atkins (3 GS), and Rick VandenHurk (2 GS).
Let's break down the disaster player by player.
Jake Arrieta
| GS | IP | ERA | HR | BB | K | WHIP | |
| Predicted | 27 | 159 | 4.24 | 17 | 63 | 113 | 1.36 |
| Reality | 22 | 119.1 | 5.05 | 21 | 59 | 93 | 1.46 |
| Prediction - Reality | 5 | 39.2 | -0.81 | -4 | 4 | 20 | -0.10 |
We predicted a mostly healthy season from Jake, with modest gains compared to his rookie season in 2010. What we got was a pitcher who should have had bone chips in his elbow removed last offseason, but he did not do this, so he had command problems and pitched hurt and mostly stunk and still had to get the surgery to remove the bone chips. He was shut down early.
Jake gave up four more bombs than we predicted despite nearly 40 fewer innings, and walked only four less than our prediction despite the same. We predicted a 3.57 BB/9 from Jake - which is still not great - and he walked 4.45 per 9. He exceeded our K/9 guess, though: we guessed a 6.4 K/9 and he actually had a 7.01 K/9. Can Jake come back from the bone chip removal and resume his development? Can the Orioles ever develop him? These are key questions for Jake for next year.
Brad Bergesen
| GS | IP | ERA | HR | BB | K | WHIP | |
| Predicted | 28 | 172 | 4.16 | 19 | 45 | 94 | 1.33 |
| Reality | 12 | 62.1 | 5.78 | 9 | 20 | 35 | 1.57 |
| Predicted - Reality | 16 | 109.2 | -1.62 | 10 | 25 | 59 | -0.24 |
What we guessed and hoped for was the sophomore slump for which we might have imagined 3E1N was on a trajectory before that Billy Butler line drive. What we got was a pitcher who couldn't throw well as a starter and couldn't throw well in relief. We also got the only O's starter to throw a complete game shutout all season: Bergy blanked the Rays for 9 innings on May 14 in the Trop.
Bergesen qualified as a super-two player, meaning he will be in line for an arbitration raise next season. Will that cause the Orioles to non-tender him? If he returns, can he be a serviceable pitcher again?
Justin Duchscherer
Though he never played in a game for the O's, I maintain that this was not a bad signing for the O's. At $700,000, a flier on an oft-injured player could have paid dividends far beyond its cost, if only he weren't injured. This is the kind of chance the Orioles need to take. Lest we forget, the Yankees took similar chances on Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colon, and those actually worked. I hate the Yankees.
Jeremy Guthrie
| GS | IP | ERA | HR | BB | K | WHIP | |
| Predicted | 32 | 205 | 3.83 | 25 | 55 | 124 | 1.26 |
| Reality | 32 | 203.2 | 4.37 | 26 | 64 | 126 | 1.35 |
| Predicted - Reality | 0 | 1.1 | -0.54 | -1 | -9 | -2 | -0.09 |
What can we say about Guthrie? He deserves better than to be stuck on this crappy team, but Andy MacPhail would only trade him for major-league ready pitching, and if you had a major-league ready pitcher why would you need Guts? He made all of his starts, he made a couple of panic relief appearances, he gave up a lot of bombs. He also was charged with 17 losses because the O's hitters and fielders hate him, although with a .284 BABIP, he didn't have the worst luck as far as that goes.
The 4.37 ERA for Guts as a starter was the best on the Orioles. Only two other players (Britton and Simon) even had a sub-5.00 ERA as a starter. That's three out of twelve starters, with none of the twelve going below 4.00 in ERA.
Guthrie is entering his final year of arbitration before he's a free agent. If he has a decent 2012, he'll probably be a trade candidate. He will be 33 next season, but he's thrown 200 innings for three straight years and he has less mileage on his arm than other 33 year old pitchers. He probably has value for a few more years to some team, but maybe not a crappy team like the O's.
Brian Matusz
The numbers will just depress you if I do a side-by-side comparison. Matusz was a complete disaster. You know this. I know this. Do you know how bad? He allowed more home runs (18) than we predicted (17) despite throwing about 142 fewer innings than we predicted. His ERA went up after every start except for one, when he gave up 6 ER in 6.2 IP to drop his ERA from 8.77 to 8.63.
Brian was terrible. Did he never fully recover from his intercostal strain? Did he come back partially injured and lose his confidence? Was he unprepared to begin spring training? Was he sour over the departure of Rick Kranitz from last season? Can he put this unmitigated failure behind him and start fresh next season?
Chris Tillman
| GS | IP | ERA | HR | BB | K | WHIP | |
| Predicted | 19 | 109 | 4.35 | 16 | 45 | 73 | 1.40 |
| Reality | 13 | 62 | 5.52 | 5 | 25 | 46 | 1.65 |
| Predicted - Reality | 6 | 47 | -1.17 | 9 | 20 | 27 | -0.25 |
As Stacey noted in the projection post, a 4.35 ERA was a bold prediction considering Tillman's career MLB ERA was 5.61. Well, he did lower it - to 5.58. Tillman actually did improve his strikeout rate and lower his walk rate and home run rate, but why would anybody take a walk off Tillman when they could take a hack at an 88mph meatball right over the plate?
By the way, Tillman even did worse than his #1 hater, O'sFan21, predicted. O'sFan had 17 starts and a 5.25 ERA from Tillman. He couldn't even make that many starts since he was banished to the minors for being terrible. Chris has no injury he can blame. He was just bad. But he is also only 23, and as blink 182 reminded us, nobody likes you when you're 23. Can he finally take a step forward next year?
As Orioles fans, we can only hope that the new GM, whoever he is, can figure out what to do about this rotation mess. With only a league average pitching staff (4.04 ERA is 7th place in AL), the O's would have given up 143 fewer runs and only had a run differential of -9. If the Orioles are ever going to have a hope of contending,we need pitching that can actually deliver on its promise. Oh well. Maybe next year... but probably not then either.
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tillman...
2011 FIP= 3.99, xFIP=4.83, fWAR=1.0
maybe worse than predicted, but not as bad we think? his k/9 of 6.68 is not impressive, but comparatively not bad.
"If it sounded like I was delighted by Tony Romo’s failure last week, I was."
-chris cooley
jq, you are right about the FIP-type stats. I have wondered about it.
Tillman had a .348 BABIP. So does that mean he was very unlucky in having one of the worst defenses in baseball behind him? The problem with just writing it off as that is that Tillman has other things going on. His fastball averaged 89.5mph where in 2009 it was averaging 92mph.
We would see stories about how he was sacrificing velocity for command, but with a 3.63 BB/9 he wasn’t exactly getting that either. He was pumping way too many 3-ball counts which is why he averaged less than 5 IP per start even when he wasn’t walking guys.
My perception was that he was just getting beaten around by throwing hittable pitches. I don’t know if reality bears that out or not. The LD% was 18.2. That’s in line with, or lower than, such actual good pitchers like James Shields and David Price. It’s not terrible on its own. I just don’t know what the deal is with Tillman. He gets terrible results, it doesn’t seem to entirely be bad luck, but I don’t know what it is.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Nov 4, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
He looks like absolute shit while getting terrible results.
I’m certainly inclined to ignore his fip and xfip.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Jeremy Guthrie
I like that he’s an Oriole. He’s not the best player in the world, but he sure seems to have some understand of The Oriole Way. He’s never complained. He just goes out day after day (err, as much as a starting pitcher does day after day) and does his job to the best of his ability.
At this point, I think the ideal scenario would be to trade Guthrie to Washington. He’d go to a team that at least has a chance of poaching a wild card (or even winning the division, if the Phillies get too old). He’d stay in the area, so we could still support him. Most importantly, he wouldn’t be going to an American League team.
I think if the Nats ran out Strasburg, Zimmerman, Lannan, and Guthrie for the year, they’d do alright. It’s not Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Oswalt, but it’s pretty solid.
Something like Brad Peacock and Tyler Moore would be a good return.
Who is Tyler Moore? I haven't seen him on Nats prospect lists.
Peacock seems like a decent pick up. And it’s nice that an organization besides the O’s developed him.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
Moore (1B) finished the year with 31 homers in Harrisburg.
by Tezcatlipoca on Nov 4, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He's 24 in AA and had a .314 OBP, 139 Ks and only 30 BBs. PASS
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I was looking for players that it was reasonable for the Orioles to ask for in a trade.
I love Guthrie, but he’s not going to bring Hanley Ramirez for Josh Beckett type value.
by Tezcatlipoca on Nov 4, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
There's a lot of room between a 24 year old with a .314 OBP at AA and Hanley Remirez.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I'm open to ideas.
What level of prospect do you think is fair compensation for Jeremy Guthrie?
by Tezcatlipoca on Nov 4, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s very reasonable to expect prospects that are actually noted by top organizational prospect lists.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Top 20 in an organization? Top 10?
I’m not trying to be difficult. I’m just trying to gauge your value of Jeremy Guthrie.
Also, some organizations are obviously stronger than others. Outside of Machado and Bundy, would any Orioles prospect make the top 20 of the Rays?
There might be a few more.
Rays prospects in the 15-20 range are C+ prospects. The O’s system is rife with these types.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
Well it depends
if it’s only 1 then top 10 might be reasonable depending on the depth of the organization. Rays? Probably not, but the point is the Nats are NOT the Rays and this guy doesn’t even crack their top 20.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
But Moore also isn't the focus of the proposed trade.
Peacock is. We’re trading a 33 year old pitcher for a 23 year old pitcher. I was just thinking we could take a flyer on a player like Moore.
Sometimes throw-ins pan out surprisingly well.
Well he's ranked 16th in a mediocre system outside of the top 5-6
so to throw in another garbage player doesn’t mean much. That’s a shitty trade and the rationale for doing it is to help the Nats and Guts as you said, it’s particularly shitty.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Fuck the Nats
We can’t be making trades to help out other teams – if we’re going to trade Guthrie we should trade him to the team wiling to part with the most cost controlled talent. I’ve enjoyed watching him as an O, but we would be dumb as rocks to accept less in a trade for him in order to continue watching him/put him in a good position to win/help some team that’s nearby. This is a terrible idea.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I was speaking of an ideal scenario.
If the Yankees want to offer us Montero for Guthrie, I’d take it. I just don’t see that happening.
by Tezcatlipoca on Nov 4, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Ideal for who though? And why does making the Nats better or having Guts go to a winner play into an ideal scenario for us?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I think the theory is that the team with the most need will bring the highest return.
Since the Nats have a high need, they would be more likely to give up value for Guts. Peacock has value, is in the Nats’ top 10 prospects, and has the potential to surpass Guts’ yearly production once Peacock hits the majors. The Moore part would be icing on the cake. The guy clearly has some power even if he is a bit old for his level. Maybe that pays off, maybe it doesn’t. But, overall, the deal sounds reasonable.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
i don't think the nats would have that high a need for guthrie...
though i’ve been accused of overvaluing their young pitching.
"If it sounded like I was delighted by Tony Romo’s failure last week, I was."
-chris cooley
A team that gave 82 starts to Livan Hernandez, Jason Marquis, and John Lannan
has a need for decent starting pitching.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
That's not counting the 36 starts to Gorzelanny, Detwiler, and Wang
Mother, did it need to be so high.
That's certainly not how it was presented. It was like we were doing the Nats and Guts a favor and hopefully getting something decent in return.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I agree. It does kind of sound like that.
But the deal itself isn’t a bad one, regardless of the explanation behind it.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
I'm sorry I presented it that way.
My point was that there are lots of teams with a need for a pitcher that can be a 3 or 4 type guy. I just like the Nats because I’m a fan and it keeps Guthrie local.
Right
that last sentence is what was silly about it and I hope to god nobody in the front office is thinking anything other than get maximum value.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Eh...
I’d trade him if my team was losing, was going to keep losing (which we are), and could get some really good prospects (note the plural) for him. Good prospect that can really build our farm system and are no more than one year away from the Bigs (which means they can be called up next week).
Ultimately I agree with your point, we shouldn’t trade him unless we are actually going to get something of greater or equal value, and especially not just so he can go to competitive team (that’s what Free Agency is for if that’s what he really wants to do).
I like Guts and think we should give him a 3 year deal,
because he is not going to get a whole lot in return and replacing him will be a disaster.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
damn you billy butler
Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.
I'm just sorry you had to type this up
I hope you didn’t take too many years off your life reliving this player by player
No more than was already taken off from watching like 85% or more of the games.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Nov 4, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Camden Chatters are a real positive bunch?
Something tells me the 2012 projections are going to be career worsts for every player…
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
For example...
Brian Matusz: 22 GS, 9.33 ERA, 11.5 BB/9, 2.5 K/9, 2.66 WHIP, 1.5 HR/9, .356 OAVG
And that’s being optimistic.
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
I still wouldn't make that prediction.
That’s a pessimist prediction to think they will blow a second season of giving him starts if it’s apparent he’s stinking it up. But I might say 10 GS and have that ERA, if I’m not feeling good.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Nov 5, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
22 grand slams seems reasonable
by wishEYEhadCRABS on Nov 5, 2011 2:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

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