The Case for Dan Duquette
(Note: Posted this in the open thread already, but decided to give it its own space.)
If this Boston Herald article is to believed, the O’s made an offer to Duquette last night. If this is true, and they want to be ready for the start of business Monday, then an announcement will probably be forthcoming late morning. I suspect Duquette left the room last night with the deal he wanted, and told them he just wanted to "sleep on it." By waiting until 11 or 12, he doesn’t appear desperate. The O’s then call a presser for this afternoon.
Or maybe none of this happens. But I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he’s in place by the end of the day.
The more I read around the interwebz this morning, the more I like the Duquette choice.
There was always an appeal to having a 35-40-year old stathead running the show, but it’s not a shock that Angelos wouldn’t give up complete autonomy. So for a team that’s reeling as much as this one is, what’s the next best model to go after?
Answer: someone with enough experience and time in the game to confidently overhaul the baseball operations department. Someone who can restore functionality to a dysfunctional operation. And someone with the bona fides to push back at the owner when necessary. Duquette is only three years older than LaCava, but he has run two teams successfully. He’s probably a little more politiccally savvy. If he wants to do it a certain way, he has more cards to play with Angelos than LaCava, as someone who has never GM’d before, ever could have.
Or to put it a different way, let’s assume Tony LaCava was allowed to hire his own guys, but wouldn’t take the job because he couldn’t fire the Stockstills. As others have pointed out here, it’s a little ridiculous to think LaCava couldn’t have just given them busy work and conducted his operation around them. But he didn’t want to deal with the hassle—and yet a GM has to find ways to work with an owner, no matter how much of a troglodyte that owner is. If Duquette can find ways to appease PA and get what he needs in the end (and that’s a BIG if), then we may all be better off.
In the positive column, Duquette has a proven track record in terms of acquiring great players and making great trades. One of the Orioles’ major weaknesses, Latin America, is one of his best strengths. By all accounts, the reason he was cut loose in Beantown was his personality. The players found him arrogant and aloof, he clashed with Jimy Williams, he refused to talk to the media. But growing a little older and spending a decade away from the game he loves may have changed that. Plus, while he obviously didn’t respect Williams, it’s hard to imagine he’d take this job if he didn’t respect Showalter.
Whatever his detractors say, there is no question that he had a strong hand in building great teams, both in Boston and in Montreal. Some of the crucial players Epstein got for the Sox were obtained in part because of Duquette’s farm system.
So what’s the issue? The biggest gripes I hear are
- Nobody else wanted him, so why are we taking him?;
- He’s been away from the game too long (it’s passed him by); and
- Related to 2, he’s not enough of a SABR guy.
The first complaint is dubious. Nobody here knows all the reasons why Duquette hasn’t held an MLB job in 9 years, but the likelihood is that it was at least partially his own choice. I can find no evidence of him interviewing for any MLB job from 2002-2007. Think about that for a moment: his interpersonal skills notwithstanding, wouldn’t you think that some team would have at least interviewed him after his track record with the Expos and Sox? The fact that none did may well have been because he chose not to participate, not because he wasn’t asked. Perhaps he wanted to step away from the game for a while to de-stress. We know he ran the Israeli Baseball League, and that would have taken up at least 2-3 of the 9 years. Perhaps his time there whetted his appetite to return to baseball: just after the League folded in 2007, he applied for a CEO job with the Pirates. In any case, I don’t think our barometer should be, "only guys that other teams have liked in the past." Omar Minaya wanted to interview for this job, and I’m thrilled that he didn’t get the opportunity.
Regarding #s 2 and 3: That’s what you hire a staff for. We know for a fact that Duquette has valued SABR stats in the past. Assuming he gets to bring in 9 or 10 guys (or more), there’s no reason to think he won’t get a whole staff of people who have been in the game for the past decade andhave been using advanced stats. And that’s a very workable model: get a good CEO, let that CEO hire great lieutenants, and delegate, delegate, delegate.
Which means the crucial question is not whether an announcement happens today, but what announcements happen in the next few weeks as Duquette staffs up.
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Duquette and Dan Connelly should be on live on MLB Network radio. I would be listening if I had Sirius.
My B
Jim Duquette – Clearly, I can read.
by ZeroGravity107 on Nov 6, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Don Connolly's update at the Sun this morning says he's got family stuff going on the rest of the day today....
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
whatever works
we.ve waited too long to quibble. If he can get it done, I’ll have smileitis for the forseeable.
To clarify
it’s the Baltimore Sun’s article, reprinted in the Boston Herald. I linked to it in BD so you didn’t burn a pageview at The Sun’s site.
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
well that's what the Sun gets for their stupid scheme.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
This would be nice, but two things:
1. If Dan Duquette didn’t want to work in baseball for ten years, this is hardly a point in his favor.
I also see no real good reason to discount the impact his interpersonal skills had on his hireability. Maybe running the Israeli league into the dirt has mellowed him out, maybe not, but there’s a reason Dave Littlefield’s name came up before his did, according to Roch. Littlefield had the misfortune of being fired too recently.
2. It appears that the reason Dan Duquette is getting the job and not Tony LaCava is precisely because he’s not allowed to bring in his own guys or make major personnel changes in the front office. Expecting him to have the same success without John Harrington and that ownership group in Boston overseeing him and guys like Mike Gimbel in the trenches is, well, optimistic.
I will admit upfront that I hate this hire and I’m extremely biased against Duquette due to things I’ve heard and read from Sox fans about him.
well, the Sox fans have a point
when it comes to his personality.
But they don’t win the WS in 2004 without his 8 years of building that org. No way.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
he was successful in Montreal without Harrington
1. If Dan Duquette didn’t want to work in baseball for ten years, this is hardly a point in his favor.
No, but it’s not necessarily a point against him, either. People take breaks all the time. See: Buck Showalter.
It appears that the reason Dan Duquette is getting the job and not Tony LaCava is precisely because he’s not allowed to bring in his own guys or make major personnel changes in the front office.
You’re basing this on what, exactly? And LaCava was allowed to bring in a ton of his own guys—no reason Duquette shouldn’t get the same offer. The sticking point is not being able to reassign existing guys, and as I wrote above, a creative mind can get around that problem. Haven’t we all had the one douchebag at work we have to find a way to fineese? I’d rather have someone who can finesse than someone who can’t work with the douchebag.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
I don’t know anything about the specifics of LaCava’s sticking points with regards to existing personnel, but I would be very, very surprised if it was just one douchebag who needed to get gone from this front office.
Showalter didn't really work out well so far, did he?
I wouldn’t use him as an example of a guy taking a break from his job and coming back to be really successful, especially when discussing the Orioles in particular.
Am I the only one flagging this guy?
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Nov 6, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
How HAS he worked out?
Am I the only one flagging this guy?
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Nov 6, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have to ask
What the hell is up with your handle?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I like to wear Sandals, and I don't like to wear pants.
Am I the only one flagging this guy?
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Nov 6, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
I'm hoping you're not a flasher, so why not SandalsandShorts?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
That's not as funny.
SandalsNoPants is an actual nickname. I didn’t make it up.
Am I the only one flagging this guy?
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Nov 6, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you for being more welcoming than OTM
even though my initial comment on this thread was criticism of your team.
I appreciate that.
Am I the only one flagging this guy?
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Nov 6, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
If you had said something nice about the current state of the O's,
you would have stood out like a sore thumb.
I also might be a little fed up with Buck right now.
Contrary to DCO'sfan, I am Jewish.
He's credited with being a good player manager.
I have to question his personnel decisions, but whether or not he can handle players is probably more important.
Yet he got the same performance in 2011 that other managers got out of the team since Mazzilli left
And it looked like the team was improved, especially on offense, during the last offseason.
Am I the only one flagging this guy?
Seriously, do we have to wait for the money shot or a "F*** THE SOXXXXXX!" before we ban him? Doubleteapot… BAN HIM!!
by AlohaSox on Sep 28, 2011 10:20 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Nov 6, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
Everyone keeps bringing up the Israeli league and I want to set the record straight.
It was a joke from the get go. There is one (1) real baseball field in Israel if I’m not mistaken, and even with a large American population, there was never enough real exposure for it to work.
It was a version of the Venezuelan winter league but further from the baseball world, in a smaller country where the only people who play the game are ex-pats. Virtually no locals pick up the game. They consider it boring.
Contrary to DCO'sfan, I am Jewish.
by J(O's)elskIL on Nov 6, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
but it was a legitimate idea, no?
i mean, ok, it didn’t succeed. my point was, three of the years duquette wasn’t “back in baseball”, he was working a different job. it’s not like he could walk out in the middle of that job.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
Sure. It's just a lot of comments have made it sound like he ran it into the ground.
It was dead from the get-go, is what I’m saying. Nobody could have gotten that to work especially when it was running.
Contrary to DCO'sfan, I am Jewish.
by J(O's)elskIL on Nov 6, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Why is that a point against him? People like to take breaks and do different things.
As to your 2nd point that’s just not accurate – LaCava was encouraged to bring in his own staff to his heart’s desire – he just wasn’t allowed to fire certain people.
And lastly, it was a different ownership group that “oversaw” him in Boston than the one that’s there now.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Right but what was special about that ownership group?
That was my point. I think most people would agree the current ownership group has been pretty special what with the two world series titles and all, but the previous?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
But is there any evidence that they were partly responsible for the good decisions Duquette made?
If not what’s the point?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I think people are underestimating being out of baseball for 10 years
If Andrew Friedman or Theo Epstein or Brian Cashman were (for some reason) to be fired today and spent the next decade away from MLB, I wouldn’t hire them as a GM in 2022.
Think about the state of baseball analysis today versus 2001, or in 2001 vs. 1991, or in 1991 vs. 1981 (!). It’s a fast-moving game, and even if Duquette were an unalloyed genius — which no one suggests he was — back with Montreal and Boston, I’d be concerned about him taking over any GM job today. With his prior mixed record, I’m very concerned.
you don't think he knows a bunch of guys currently working in baseball?
or you fear that he won’t give them input……
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
I don't get this argument
As ZK said, the baseball analysis being done today is not primarily done by Theo Epstein or Andrew Friedmen – it’s done by the people who work for them and then they make decisions based on it. If Duquette hires people capable of doing the analysis, what’s the problem?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
he really should be the picture in the dictionary.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
Calling Angelos a troglodyte is worth a rec itself.
Good post. I generally agree with everything you said and I don’t see why everyone hates this signing. Was it first choice? No. But probably still a good one.
What evidence is there to say that Duquette has a strength in Latin America?
Who did Shooter Duquette sign? How much credit does he get for Hanley and Vladi?
I would be curious as to his handling of budgets. I don’t recall the Red Sox being out of control like they are now back when he was in charge. So maybe this is another point in his favor. Of course, how many teams could have signed Manny Ramirez to that contract when he signed back then?
I don’t care one iota that he’s a douche to work for. That might wear thin with the Orioles “unique” power structure, but the last thing I care about is whether or not he’s a good diplomat. But the larger problem with him isn’t him at all…it’s the ownership structure. LaCava didn’t take the deal not because he couldn’t fire the Stockstills (IMO), but more because of what it represents. Of course he can put Dave Stockstill in charge of the TPS reports, but the problem goes beyond that…Wade Townsend, the Bonilla trade, signing Albert Belle, etc. These aren’t secrets…
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
Why doesn't he get 100% credit for Hanley Ramirez?
I 100% agree with you that I don’t give a shit if he’s the biggest asshole in the world – we’ve had a nice guy in his sweatervests for the last few years and that worked great.
What was the problem with the Albert Belle signing? He was a fucking monster while he was healthy and the contract was insured.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I'm not saying yeah or nay on getting credit for Hanley...more a discussion about Latin signings
The issue with Albert Belle is that apparently PGA negotiated with Belle’s agent (Tellum IIRC) negotiated with PGA, not Frank Wren. So Wren was caught off guard when PGA signed him.
I loved Albert Belle total beast. But that’s not the issue, it’s the notion that PGA acted on his own.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
I'd have to look at more of their signings from LatAm over that time period
but seems like the consensus was that he was pretty awesome there.
As far as PGA and the Belle signing, has there been a single instance of that happening in the 15 years since that signing? I also suspect that Duquette will not stand for that.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I don't know about PGA's involvement
From overruling the Bonilla trade to not allowing certain people be fired, from the Belle signing to the Townsend, from the allegations to how long the 2005 trade proposals took, it’s one thing after another. A leopard can’t change his spots.
The Orioles could have hired Friedman and LaCava and it would not have mattered.
I also wonder how much bull Duquette will take. But something tells me wandering in the desert for 9 years will improve your patience.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
Those are all REALLY old things.
I think the tinkering of PGA is drastically overrated at this point.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Sure, I guess
I guess he figured the MacPhail Orioles were as effed as they could be, so his participation wasn’t necessary?
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, this.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
Wade Townsend, the Bonilla trade, signing Albert Belle
try naming an instance of PA interfering that isn’t a decade old.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
"Oh, sure, bring in your own guys, but those Stockstill boys are untouchable"
“And my boy Lou and will be calling you twice a day for status updates. Make sure to take his call.”
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
allegedly squashing brian roberts trade...
allegedly squashing julio and penn for aj burnett and mike lowell.
"If it sounded like I was delighted by Tony Romo’s failure last week, I was."
-chris cooley
These are good examples
I had forgotten about them, but I question if they would have happened if we had a good GM with some backbone at the time.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
they may not even be accurate...
i think it is said that roberts to sox for floyd did not get done over chris getz, which would be on macphail, but was that the same offseason that a trade to the braves for laroche and someone else was also kiboshed?
"If it sounded like I was delighted by Tony Romo’s failure last week, I was."
-chris cooley
I believe that's correct
although you’re right it’s hard to know what actually happened. My sense is that Angelos loves Roberts though so I would be inclined to believe that.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
it was one the giles...
brian giles, maybe?
"If it sounded like I was delighted by Tony Romo’s failure last week, I was."
-chris cooley
i think we courted brian giles as a FA once
and he chose the pirates over us.
i could be misremembering though.
He was traded to the Pirates for Ricardo Rincon.
Thus setting the stage for one of the most important parts of Moneyball.
roberts is a great example
lacava is harder to analyze since we don’t really know all the details.
and there’s a difference between hiring a GM and trading a player.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
Either way, PGA is an obstacle to the organization, not an asset
He was then and is now. The LaCava saga is just one more nail in the coffin. You can believe he’s not as bad now as he was then. So maybe he’s not as much of a tool.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
oh, i don't disagree that he's an obstacle
i just won’t sign on yet to him being an insurmountable one.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
You must have the patience of Jobe...
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
if he's incapable of hiring AND keeping a good GM.
he’s an insurmountable obstacle. we now have 16 years of observation and he has not hired and kept a good gm yet.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
it’s funny because in 2005 or 2006, I remember posting here that we don’t know if Petey is incapable of hiring and keeping a good GM yet. i said that we knew petey could hire a good GM (Gillick and Wren), but keeping a good GM seemed to be a problem. that said, we needed more years of observation to make a more reliable conclusion. i was oddly defending petey at the time. well, it turns out another six years have passed and he still hasn’t hired and kept a good GM. different people have different points where the data finally convinces them, but let’s just say that I’m now convinced he’s an insurmountable obstacle.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
by birdman on Nov 6, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Most important reason to be (relatively) happy about this hire:
Dan Duquette is not John Stockstill.
which i should have mentioned in the article.
it’s kind of a crucial point.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
Nobody else wanted him, so why are we taking him?;
He’s been away from the game too long (it’s passed him by); and
Related to 2, he’s not enough of a SABR guy.
Horrible people skills. Which speaks could speak his management skills, and more importantly, his ability to get along with Petey.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Although
most of the people skills issues that the article mention don’t really concern me. Who cares if our GM doesn’t work well with the media?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I’m talking about people skills beyond the media. I believe in Moneyball (?) there’s a hilarious passage where another GM is negotiating with Dan Duquette. The writer mentions that he had a horrible reputation for being evasive. So a GM told a story where simply said nothing on the phone with talking to Dan on the phone about a trade. This literally went on for another hour before another GM said, "Dan, are you there?’ which Dan said, “Yes.” And there’s the stories of him releasing players in very cold and impersonal ways. Look, I’m sure you’ll going to say, “So what, so what,” but I think people skills does have some management value.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Those stories don't seem to have limited his ability to make good trades
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
i just remember hearing that other GMs hated trading with him because they couldn’t get a straight answer. negotiations would proceed at a snail’s pace as a result. since you seem to be interested in defending dan at every opportunity (not that there’s anything wrong with that), yes, that doesn’t mean he hasn’t changed nor does it mean that he current crop of GMs won’t feel the same way.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
But even with that apparent reputation among other GMs he was able to wheel and deal quite effectively.
So again, why do we care? It seems he doesn’t even need to have changed.
And also my point is not to defend him since I don’t particularly care, I just want to make sure the criticisms of him make sense, and this one doesn’t seem to given that he was able to make tons of trades without any apparent difficulty.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
we don't know about the all the trade that weren't made because of his reputation of GM hating to deal with him.
just because he made a trade grade with varitek doesn’t mean his record on trade is spotless.
And also my point is not to defend him since I don’t particularly care,
I’ve just noticed you haven’t made a point taking the other side – that hiring dan duquette is bad… or maybe you have and i’ve just missed it (my bad if that’s the case).
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Because I don't think it's bad
My post yesterday was specifically designed to solicit reasons that it was bad – this just doesn’t seem like a legitimate one of them.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
then isn’t your point to defend him if you don’t think he’s a bad hire?
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
If the criticism was valid I would not be saying anything
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
right, you're defending him because you don't think there any good criticisms of him.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
haha because that's what I said
I think the time away from the game is a legitimate although not damning criticism of him. I don’t think anybody has made any arguments for a good reason why he wasn’t or won’t be a good GM.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
right, you think he's a good hire
and that’s fine. it’s okay to admit! i don’t have a problem with that position.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
I don't think he's a GOOD hire - I just don't see any reason he's a bad hire.
And so far nobody has made a convincing argument of that.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
so you think he's a so so hire
actually i agree. i’m not saying that i like this hire, but i’m not hating either.
my feeling toward duquette is similar to when the o’s hired andy. meh.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Yeah that's fair
My initial reaction was “Christ, isn’t this guy supposed to be a total moron?” but that was primarily based on the Clemens twilight of his career story. Once I looked his experience I saw mostly good stuff.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
you know,
you spend a lot of time putting words in other peoples’ mouths.
with our recent complaint history, i have to say, it’s really irritating.
let other people’s words speak for them. you speak for you. let the rest of us sort out the difference.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
drop it dude
i did my best to understand what he said.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
free country, sorry.
don’t post here if you can’t accept critique.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
fine, free country for me too
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
seriously dude, we need to drop the hatchet
i know there’s a lot of bad blood between us. and that sucks. i really feel bad about it… i mean that seriously. but i like to post here in the future and be critiqued.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Could lose him for the season!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=1634325
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
bury it then!
don’t post here if you can’t accept critique.
I don’t want to put words into anyone’s mouth, but when i read that, i see that as a polite way to leave Camden Chat… or the very least, i’m not saying you should leave, but i certainly wouldn’t mind if you left
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
not how i meant it
but i can see how it would come across that way. sorry.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
hatchet buried
my blood started to boil, i’m sorry.
i really hate it when ANYbody says, “what you’re saying is THIS” when someone says they’re not saying that. i just think it’s condescending.
i’m sorry i took it out on you. shake?
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
cool, man.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
are you ready for more critique?
if you’re not sure you understand someone’s arguments, ask questions, don’t make statements as if you do understand.
because i'm creep
i wish i was special. so very special.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
jesus, he's said like 3 times he's not defending the hire,
and you insist that’s what he’s saying anyway.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
because every post he writes his taking the position of defending, that's why
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
None of these posts have been "defending the hire"
just questioning the criticism.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
that's how i read them as well
you can take a neutral position towards the hire, and still say, “this is not a valid criticism”
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
just questioning the criticism.
fine. that’s completely fair.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Because I don't think it's bad
and very teleological of you (arguing to an end point). just kidding man, just playing with you.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
"negotiations would proceed at a snail’s pace as a result."
Andy MacPhail wasn’t exactly Speedy Gonzales himself on trades.
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Indeed, the media stuff may not matter so much in Baltimore....
In Boston, the media are fine when the team wins. But when the team loses, they smell chicken and beer and go for the jugular.
Duquette didn’t appreciate their approach, and, as a fan, I can’t blame him. Sox reporters take their jobs way too seriously and see themselves as holding the team “accountable” for its failings. It’s a baseball team, people. It is about playing a children’s game, not the world debt crisis.
Serious Red Sox fans admit that Duquette had his good points
After all, he put together the core of the team which won the WS in 2004. It’s the Boston media who loathed him. Witness the hatchet-job done by Gordon Edes on ESPN Boston:
" For all of his accomplishments, Duquette turned Yawkey Way toxic with his glaring lack of people skills. He alienated the team’s biggest stars, Roger Clemens and Mo Vaughn, both of whom departed under bitter circumstances. He failed to back his manager, Jimy Williams, in an ugly falling-out with angry star Carl Everett, then promoted the unqualified Joe Kerrigan to succeed him, leading to Manny Ramirez’s jumping the team in Anaheim. He hired an off-the-wall statistical analyst who took credit for the team’s personnel moves. His promise to create an assembly line of homegrown talent like he did in Montreal fell woefully short, underscored by the pathetic botching of negotiations with a drafted high school first baseman named Mark Teixeira, who accused the Sox of showing no respect “to me or my family.” His attempts to make in-roads in the Asian market were mostly failures, and marred by a dubious connection with a talent hunter named Ray Poitevint. Duquette became notorious for not returning phone calls to his fellow general managers, for fostering an atmosphere of paranoia among his own scouts and minor league staffers. And his idea of media relations was to stonewall and sidestep, which left him with few supporters in the public arena."
But, serious Sox fans aren’t as bitter as Gordon.
The core of the sox team?
First off, thanks for coming. The Red Sox perspective is appreciated!
Didn’t Epstein sign Papi and acquire Schilling for peanuts?
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
He got Schilling for De La Rosa - a Duquette acquisition
Just like he got Beckett for Hanley – a Duquette acquisition. Duquette was responsible for Youkilis, Pedro, Lowe, Manny, Veritek, Wakefield, and Damon. Is that not a core of the 2004 team?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
2004 Red Sox WAR (bb-ref)
Schilling, 6.4
Pedro, 4.7
Damon, 4.4
Papi, 4.3
Giving credit to Duquette for picking Youkilis and giving Epstein the pieces to deal for Schilling is like giving the Orioles credit for once drafting Cliff Lee and Michael Young.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Huh?
The Red Sox drafted, developed, and promoted Youkilis to the majors where he’s been a major force. How is that even remotely comparable to the O’s drafting Lee and Young?
And even with that list of 4 players, Duquette was directly responsible for 2 of the 4.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
It's not, I was exaggerating
I don’t believe for a second that the Red Sox win in ’04 with Duquette at the helm.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
You may not believe that, but you can't reasonably argue that he wasn't responsible for most of the core of that team.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
yes.... i think you two talking past each other
i don’t anyone doubts that he acquired important pieces for 2004. i certainly acknowledge that. but i also agree with dfa that the sox don’t win the WS with him at the helm. there are two separate points. both with merit in my opinion.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Well
the initial argument was dfa saying “what core?” Then I very specifically listed the core. You’re right they are two separate points, but that was not the initial point of the argument.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Schilling and Papi were huge parts of the team,
of which Duquette doesn’t deserve credit.
We can back and forth on this point…I’m not saying that Duquette isn’t a talentless schmuck. The point is that he had little to do with getting 2 of the 4 best players on that team.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Sure they were, but they are TWO PLAYERS
As opposed to the list of Duquette’s acquisitions.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
exactly, you're talking past each other.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
yeah, it's fun tho
:)
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
We're only talking past each other because he changed his argument.
from “what core” to “the Red Sox wouldn’t have won in 2004 with him at the helm” (something entirely impossible to argue or prove by the way).
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
stop changing your argument DFA, :()
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
I could get into a semantics argument about what core means, but I choose not to do that
2 of their 4 best players weren’t acquired by Duquette. I suppose that has no relevance on the term core.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Baseball teams involve more than 4 players.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
But let's not pretend that it was *any* two players...
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
not to bill mueller, foulke,
and maybe even that 2B they had whose name escapes me. bellhorn?
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Well....
Duquette signed Manny, traded for Varitek, traded for Pedro, traded for Derek Lowe, developed Trot Nixon and Nomar, etc.. Those were key players for the Sox, too (though Nomar got traded in 2004).
draft wise, how did Duquete do with the Sox?
I really don’t know but it would nice to get a discussion going. He drafted Nomar and Youk. Anybody else notable? Did he draft Trot NIxon as well. Did he draft any notable people in late rounds?
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
There were the infamous Teixeira negotiations...
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, i vaguely remember hearing that Teixeira held a grudge against Boston when he was a free agent.
but i don’t know the details.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
knowing what we know about tex now...
what are the chances that tex and family bear some of the blame for a deal not getting done?
"If it sounded like I was delighted by Tony Romo’s failure last week, I was."
-chris cooley
also, the thing about the draft
is that GMs are typically only involved with the first pick. The rest of the pics are run by the scouting director. So maybe my question isn’t even the right one.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
When he left the Red Sox, the media claimed that he left the cupboard bare...
However, it was more that the upper levels of the system didn’t contain many prospects. As one Sox fan noted on SOSH,
“When Duquette left the system, the best prospects were believed to be Tony Blanco and Josh Hancock. Baseball people (or at least the ones I heard) didn’t start to see Youkilis (who hadn’t even cracked high-A by the time Duke left) or Hanley Ramirez (who hadn’t yet played professional ball) or even Anibel Sanchez (who been a high A/AA player that no one was yet really sold on, albeit one with good numbers) as strong prospects for at least another year. People at the time thought the cupboard was bare because there was nothing at the top levels and most of the people in the system were giant question marks.”
With 20/20 hindsight, Duquette did make some good picks.
With 20/20 hindsight, Duquette did make some good picks.
Could you expand? The paragraph you quoted seems to suggest otherwise. Blanco and Hancock didn’t pan out. Ramirez is obviously a plus for Dan.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Other Duquette draftees who made it to the majors:
David Eckstein, Adam Everett, Freddy Sanchez.
But Dan was best known for his trades, and he is remembered fondly for his total restructuring of the Sox line-up after the 1994 season.
As a SOSH old-timer notes, “From 1994 to 1995, Duquette made the following changes to the starting line-up: replaced C Damon Berryhill with Mike McFarlane, 2B Scott Fletcher with Luis Alicea, 3B Scott Cooper by making Tim Naehring the full-time 3B, CF Otis Nixon with Lee Tinsley, DH Andre Dawson with Jose Conseco and SP Aaron Sele, Joe Hesketh, Danny Darwin Chris Nabholz and Gar Finwold with SP Tim Wakefield, Erik Hanson, Zane Smith and Vaighn Eshelman. (Thats all the SP except Clemens). He replaced RF Billy Hatcher with Troy O’Leary, another big step up.So he replaced 10/14 starters, leaving Greenwell, Valentin, Vaughn and Clemens, and won the Division.He also traded two guys who didn’t pan out (including Frank Rodriguez) for Rick Aguilera at the trade deadline. Basically every move was an improvement, most of them huge improvements. It’s not a stretch to say that this was the greatest single GM year in Red Sox history. Or a close second to 2004.”
So, he’s the kind of guy who isn’t afraid to blow up a line-up and begin from square one.
So, he’s the kind of guy who isn’t afraid to blow up a line-up and begin from square one.
Kewl. Hope he gets the power to do the same in BAL.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
wouldn't that be a refreshing change?
I read elsewhere that Duquette’s MO is always to have a bona fide ace in the rotation.
I have no idea who he’d trade to get one, but I’d really like to see that.
#anyonebutwieters
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
so i'm going to have to photoshop this pic again?

"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
i'm sure what to think.
Andy was allowed to rebuild. Jim Duquette claims he was not allowed to rebuild. Not sure which Peter Angelos will show up this time.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
well, i like the fact that andy is the more recent case
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
This is perfectly Birdland 21st century
Sign a guy whose best years were 10 years ago to come to town to collect a pre-retirement check from gnome face.
LOL, yeah, the O's sign over the hill vets, now maybe they're signing a past his prime GM.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Here’s the story from Moneyball in case in anyone is interested. It’s pretty funny.
Dan Duquette, the former Boston GM, infuriated his peers by not returning phone calls, and sometimes, when he did return calls, Duquette remained silent — a passive-aggressive approach, Towers thought. The other GM would feel compelled to fill the uncomfortable silence and surrender more information that Duquette might use. Towers decided to wait out Duquette’s silence one day. Each man was on a speakerphone, and when Duquette stopped talking, so did Towers, for more than 10 minutes.
“Kevin, you there?” Duquette finally asked.
“Yeah, Dan, I’m here,” said Towers, feeling a small sense of accomplishment.
I don’t think this is damning evidence against him. It’s one of the reasons why I can’t get fully on board with Dan Duquette.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
of course, one could argue that is a smart negotiating tactic....
to a certain degree, i agree. but if it pisses of other GMs, it could make them less likely to deal with him.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
using my best mike tyson voice. NICE!
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
i love that he does this
not saying anything is a smart negotiating tactic.
not returning phone calls is bush league. but if Towers feels not talking during a negotiation is a “passive-aggressive” approach, then Towers is a stupid negotiator.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
it is smart tactic
but it can be overdone. i think dan over does it if lewis is correct about dan “infuriating” his peers.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
well, in that quote he's infuriating his peers for a different reason
i mean, not returning calls is unprofessional.
but negotiating tactics are part of the job. i don’t imagine any gm likes the way another gm negotiates very much.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
i think lewis saying it's both
not returning calls and his “passive-aggressive approach” infuriated peers. of course, this is lewis’ perception. who knows dan’s peers hated dealing with him as lewis claims.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
i will say this
as someone pointed out somewhere, you can’t argue too much with his results.
also, he’d be dealing with 31 different GMs today.
also also, maybe he’s refined his technique as he’s aged.
but that’s what this post is about, i guess. if he’d just worked somewhere else, we’d know what we’re getting. that he’s taken a decade off means we have no idea, and that could be a great thing, or a horrible thing.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
sure, i actually said the exact thing above. i really hope he’s changed, or refined because the silent thing isn’t a bad thing unless you over do it, his negotiating tactics. and i hope the new crop of GMs like him better. like i said above, we don’t know about all the deals that DIDN’T happen because other GMs hated duquette.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
that he’s taken a decade off means we have no idea, and that could be a great thing, or a horrible thing.
The last few GM retreads in Orioles history: Andy MacPhail, Jim Duquette, Jim Beattie, Syd Thrift, Pat Gillick, Roland Hemond.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
have there any instances where a GM took a long time off and came back?
Jim Bowden maybe? Anybody else?
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
looks like CHB sort of answers my question.
There have been general managers who have gone nearly 10 years or more between gigs. “Trader” Frank Lane was GM of the Kansas City Athletics in 1961, his fourth GM job, then shortly before his 75th birthday became GM of the Milwaukee Brewers in 1970. Whitey Herzog was GM of the St. Louis Cardinals from 1980 to ’82, then became GM of the California Angels in 1993. Gene Michael was GM of the Yankees in 1980-81, then was brought back by George Steinbrenner in 1991. Hank Peters was GM of the Athletics in 1965, then began an 11-year run as GM of the Orioles in 1976.
But in all four cases, each man remained engaged in major league employment, either as a special assistant (Lane); manager (Herzog); manager, third-base coach, scout (Michael); or director of player personnel and assistant GM (Peters).
Duquette? This is his résumé since John W. Henry gave him a $3 million golden parachute to go away:
• overseeing his kids’ sports camp in western Massachusetts
• running a team in a college summer league
• directing a baseball league in Israel that folded after one eight-week season
• buying an ownership stake in an independent league team, the American Defenders of New Hampshire, who were sold just more than a year later
• singing “You Gotta Have Heart” as the manager of the Washington Senators in a local production of the musical “Damn Yankees.”
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
doesn't seem like the most objective journalism
whatever that source is.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
CHB is anything but objective and he clearly hates D. Duq
but i don’t want to shot the messenger either. He does present some regular ol’ facts as well.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
who is CHB?
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
And yes, I’ve been waiting to bust out that link!
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
well his name is in the byline of the story.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
whoops
I was reading another CHB article at the time in which he was trashing dan duquette so i got the names mixed up. gordon edes obviously hates dan duquette as well. The, “What does Dan Duquette have in common with Kim Kardashian? An equal amount of MLB experience in the past decade,” is a completely unnecessary pot shot.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
what story?
the one you quoted above in blockquote without listing the byline or source? or the one you posted below with a link to it, written by gordon edes, not shaughnessy?
i don’t get your snark here with lmgtfy when the fault is clearly yours.
my bad
and lmgtfy is a sort of a joke around here like twss.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
LOL, not a fan of me are you?
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
actually having a good day
got a job interview woohoo! been spending the day prepping.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Haven't you been paying attention?
The Orioles came to terms with Duquette already. You aren’t getting that interview.
does birdman not have an ounce of self respect?
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
not much
i told my friend that i interviewed with republican polling firm a couple weeks ago. she knew i was a democrat. she said, “how could you help a republican cause/candidate given your own political beliefs? do you not have any self-respect?” i told her none.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
this same friend
that i meet up with yesterday told me that her cousin, who i met on thursday, was a former porn male star and now produces porn movies. now my la experience is complete.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
of course, this is CHB so this should be read with extreme caution.
But the article he posted on ESPN is interesting.
For all his accomplishments, Duquette turned Yawkey Way toxic with his glaring lack of people skills. He alienated the team’s biggest stars, Roger Clemens and Mo Vaughn, both of whom departed under bitter circumstances. He failed to back his manager, Jimy Williams, in an ugly falling-out with angry star Carl Everett, then promoted the unqualified Joe Kerrigan to succeed him, leading to Manny Ramirez’s jumping the team in Anaheim. He hired an off-the-wall statistical analyst who took credit for the team’s personnel moves. His promise to create an assembly line of homegrown talent like he did in Montreal fell woefully short, underscored by the pathetic botching of negotiations with a drafted high school first baseman named Mark Teixeira, who accused the Sox of showing no respect “to me or my family.” His attempts to make inroads in the Asian market were mostly failures and marred by a dubious connection with a talent hunter named Ray Poitevint.
Duquette became notorious for not returning phone calls from his fellow general managers, for fostering an atmosphere of paranoia among his own scouts and minor league staffers. And his idea of media relations was to stonewall and sidestep, which left him with few supporters in the public arena.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
John Schuerholz?
I’m trying to google best GMs in history of baseball without much luck. Pat Gillick comes up, but he went from job to job without an extended absence. Interesting question. Anecdotally, the answer seems like not many enjoyed success to me but there is a lot I don’t know.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
how many of those guys had been very successful at two previous stops?
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
haha it sounds pretty hilarious to me
two dickheads being dickheads.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
this is sort of a side point,
but what is your critique against his good points?
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
That he’s good of putting together a farm system. He brought in significant pieces for the 2004 championship are the two that immediately to mind. but i’m sure ther are more… oh, he’s good at trades.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
I can't think of any obvious arguments agains those points.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
then what's keeping you from fully embracing him?
You mentioned that you kind of indifferent toward. Thus, there must be something that keeps you from embracing him fully. What is that?
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Well his resume is not incredible - it's pretty good but not amazing
and of course he’s been gone 10 years. That’s keeping me from fully embracing him.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
does the GM put together the farm system?
sure, maybe the 1st-rounder and trades, but otherwise…
speaking of, who is replacing joe jordan again?
yeah, i made the same point earlier
and i don’t know who’s replacing joe jordan.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Well
He hires all the people who put the farm system together. In Boston’s case it also sounds like he drastically improved facilities and conditions in the minors as well – just generally putting more focus and resources on the minors. Even with the O’s if he can’t replace the Stockstills, he can bring in people under them and insist that certain things are done.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
MacPhail drastically improved spring training conditions for the O's
and made some good trades.
anyone want HIM back?
kind of related
Let’s say the Orioles hit the lottery with Eduardo Rodriguez and Gabriel Lino, does that vindicate MacPhail’s efforts in Latin America?
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Nov 6, 2011 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Are you equating those scrubs to Hanley Ramirez???
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
It looks like the gig is up anyway.
Apparently Duq and the O’s have agreed to terms. Press conference maybe tomorrow.
via Stacey on front page
Contrary to DCO'sfan, I am Jewish.
Duquette and Latin America
When Syd Thryft was hired, we were told that he was a wizard at rebuilding farm systems.
via Latin America? Or are those two unrelated thoughts?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
he actually had a good track in Pitt. drafted barry bonds i believe.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"





















