MuchO GustO: middle infielders
by dfa on Dec 1, 2011 10:01 AM EST
in Minors & Draft
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MuchO GustO now shifts to the middle infield! The Orioles are set for 3 years with JJ Hardy at short, but questions remain at second. Robert Andino provides depth at second in 2012. Giving Matt Antonelli a spot on the 40 man says a lot about Brian Roberts' recovery, but let's turn our attention to the kids on the farm. Who else can help?
The good:
Manny Machado: Machado is our wunderkind. Coming into 2011, Machado was the 14th best prospect after being picked 3rd overall in the 2010 draft. Machado was a world beater in the SALLY, right up there with Jurickson Profar as far as one of the best SS prospects in the game. He obliterated Salisbury with an 859 OPS before being promoted to Frederick where he performed as much as you could expect an 18 year old could do, posting an 692 OPS. While that certainly isn't Harper-esque, it is worth noting that he was doing this against competition 3 or 4 years older than him. Defensively reports were that he has the instincts of a middle infielder, though there is some question if he will get moved to third base. He will likely see Bowie in 2012, but it is an open question as to when that will be. It is pretty clear that Machado is Hardy's heir apparent, and hopefully Hardy's deal with diminish any pressure to fast track Machado.
Jonathan Schoop: Machado was promoted along with Jonathan Schoop who will likely appear on BA's top 100 this spring. The Curacao native broke out in Salisbury this year with an OPS of 890 before being moved to Frederick as well, where he OPSed 704 as a 19 year old. He doesn't receive the glowing defensive reviews that Machado receives, and it looks like he will be given the second base job in Frederick to being 2012 along side Machado. It will be interesting to see where his power is in the Carolina next year, but you have to feel good about his 2011 season. What I don't understand about Schoop is the position issue. He was given most of his starts at second this year in Frederick. If the organization thinks he can play third, does it make more sense to play him at third, or keep him at second until he proves he can't play there?
Ryan Adams: The 24 y/o can hit the ball. He built on his 2010 OPS at Bowie of 829 with an arguably more impressive OPS of 794 in Norfolk. Harbor Park is more of a pitcher's park, so the downturn in OPS should not be overblown. The real question with Adams is whether he can play the position effectively defensively. I think he provides enough bat to warrant a chance as a solid contributor in 2012, but there is no use in him riding the pine. He seems like a Todd Walker type to me, so hopefully his bat can hold up in the majors enough to overcome potential shortcomings with the glove.
More below the jump!
The bad:
Mychal Givens: The 21 y/o former second round pick regressed in Delmarva in 2011. He OPSed 488. Demoted to Aberdeen, he played better, OPSing 698. Given that he is more raw than other SS prospects, the numbers don't tell the whole story, but it is difficult to look past his age and OPS and not come to the conclusion that 2011 was a lost year for him. It's too early to close the book on him, but 2012 is put up or shut up in Delmarva.
The meh:
Greg Miclat: In 2011, the 23 y/o went 50 for 53 in stolen bases. Conversely, his slugging percentage in 182 AA games is 336. Short of finding a time machine and sending him to the Cardinals organization to replace Tom Herr, I'm not sure where he fits.
Pedro Florimon: Following the 2009 season, Pedro Florimon was something of a prospect, posting a 764 OPS in the Carolina League in his then age 22 season, which was good for 39th in the League. He played most of 2010 in Frederick again, and improved his OPS to the tune of 785. However, he didn't fare that well in Bowie, posting an OPS of 483 in only 37 games. Returning to Bowie in 2011, the 24 year old posted the following slash line: 267/344/396/741. He did walk 51 times in 520 plate appearances, but at 25, not yet in AAA, and between Hardy and Machado, it is uncertain what role he can carve out with the Orioles.
Jerome Pena: the 22 year old 38th round pick in 2011 out of TCU, the switch hitting second baseman displayed some solid patience for the GCL Orioles, putting up this slash line: 266/364/362/725. His slash line reveals an impressive walk rate (26 walks in 212 plate appearances). Given his age, one would think he will be paired up with Mychal Givens in Salisbury next year.
Overall, if JJ Hardy can be healthy for the next 2 seasons, the SS position should be ready for Machado by 2014. In a best case scenario, Hardy has 2 strong campaigns and becomes a valuable trading chit for Duquette. Second base is less certain. In the short term, I am not really sure what Brian Roberts can be for the Orioles going forward. I'm something of a fan of Ryan Adams, and I would like to see his bat in the majors. I'm concerned about his defense, and there was the issues in Frederick a few years ago. Hopefully that's behind him. I like Andino as well, but I think his versatility in some ways hurts him, or at least allows him to rotate between third, short and second, allowing Adams to get a lot of playing time.
Ultimately though, this organization needs Machado and Schoop to deliver. I know there are supporters of Greg Miclat out there, but I don't see how being a pinch runner is enough at the major league level. The only thing that Miclat's time in Bowie taught me was that the Orioles don't think much of LJ Hoes prospects as a second baseman.
What do you think?
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seems like the org. hates Adams
We know Buck does, but we also see Adams routinely skipped over by the press, meaning that he’s not showing up in those front office press releases.
I’m not really sure why. I mean, Adams isn’t an upper-eschelon prospect by any means, but he’s a former second-rounder who’s held his own at the upper minors and in 100 AB at the majors. If you don’t play that guy after a 90-loss season, then why have minor league affiliates at all?
you have to ask why he isn't considered a strong prospect with his decent offensive numbers
I'll develop my own image. I'm an original man. A one and only. I just need some help.
Adams' problem is he can't play 2b
He can stand out there and pretend, but that’s not the same as playing it.
If Adams gets significant playing time at 2b for the Orioles, it means that the team has learned nothing from successful defense-first philosophy of the Rays.
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three-run homers."
by ThreeRunHomer on Dec 1, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
or the successful defense-last philosophy of the 2011 Orioles
I'll develop my own image. I'm an original man. A one and only. I just need some help.
in fairness, the 2010 Mariners were defense first too,
and that didn’t work out too well either.
WRT Adams…I’d like to see him given the majority of starts at second in 2012. You would think that defense can be taught, moreso than a batting eye for example.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
Mariners had a defense first philosophy but did not succeed in 2010 but did in 2009.
Not to the level of the Rays. In 2010, the Mariners had a slighlty above average defense, with a below average pitching staff and the worst offense in the league. This was a significant decline from the 2009 Mariners who led the league in defense, had a below average pitching staff, and well below average offense. The 2009 Mariners had 85 wins while the 2010 Mariners had 65. It appers to me that the Mariners defense-first philosphy was actually successful when it worked. They had far better defense, worse pitching and a slightly better offense in 2009 than 2010 and won 20 more games.
The Rays, on the other hand, from 2007 to 2008 went from the thrid worst defense to the best defense in the league. They also coupled that with an above average pitching staff and above average offense. So, while the Mariners had good intentions, they did not succeed in practice in 2010.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
by salvotion on Dec 1, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Teaching
If he hasn’t figured out that he has to live, eat, and sleep defense while a minor leaguer with the potential for millions of dollars staring him in the face, I don’t think he’s going to get much better.
You may be right,
but I like to think coaches has some function.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Dec 2, 2011 1:08 AM EST up reply actions
*have, not has
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Dec 2, 2011 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
the primary goal of a terrible team looking to get better
should be to identify the talent it has within the organization. If Adams turns out to be a bat-first 2B who’s a butcher in the field, that has value. Maybe you don’t want to keep him on the team in the long haul because you’re pursuing a defense-first strategy — I’m not commenting on the validity of that strategy in this thread. But it’s better to know what you have (and establish their market value in trade) than to just bury probably your best AAA prospect.
Now, if you want to argue that it’s fairly sad that the Orioles don’t have a prospect better than Adams at AAA, I won’t argue with that — but that’s really neither here nor there.
Value
“If Adams turns out to be a bat-first 2B who’s a butcher in the field, that has value.”
I think it’s safe to say you’re not a “strong defense up the middle” kind of a guy.
If you’re looking at “bat-first”, Antonelli had a higher OPS last year in two leagues coming back from injury than Adams has ever put up in his career. (Minor league career Trz at second is about as bad, though he’s much better at third.)
Adams for 2B 2012!
I'd put it this way; if an offense is a sugar cookie, on base percentage is the pastry part of the cookie, power is the icing, and baserunning is like the jimmies that they sprinkle onto the icing. - Bill James
Machado and Schoop make a great DP combo
Having watched Machado and Schoop in multiple games at Frederick this year, I predict they’ll be a great middle infield DP combo for the O’s. They are both slick defensively with good range and work very well together. They pulled off a couple of the best DP’s I’ve ever seen at any level of ball the latter half of this year. Schoop should stay at 2nd as he looks like a natural there and I don’t think he’ll hit with the power normally associated with a 3B.
Thanks for the first hand information
It is good to have a glimmer of hope from the farm system
Succesfull farmsystem !
To secure a bright future in baseball the Orioles organisation has to build a quality farmsystem by making the difference with the other teams by signing international quality players like Jonathan Schoop.
With only Schoop and Machado, is not enough to be succesfull. Look at the Braves, they have enough good young pitchers, they have enough good players at the shortstop position, like Pastornicki, Andrelton Simmons(Curacao), Edward Salcedo(Dominican) and Lipka. Also at the other positions. The Braves have more than twenty quality players in their farmsystem. The Orioles have to do the same things as the Braves to be succesfull in the future.
The Orioles have to build their farmsystem to be succesfull. To make a big transaction your organisation needs a lot of top prospects like Machado and Schoop. That’s why only Machado and Schoop is not enough!
I think maybe the Orioles need more scouts internationally to make the difference!
I for one kind of like the idea of Schoop and Machado moving up through the system
together as a DP middle infield combo.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests".
- Patrick Henry –
Second base
With the usual suspects – Miclat, Givens, Hoes, Avery, etc. – finally and officially bombing out, maybe we can move on from these con jobs.
Anyway, has anyone noticed that Robert Andino improves every single year? Wherever he is weak, he works hard at fixing it. Scoff if you may, but he may very well be a quality – .270-15-70 – second sacker this coming season. And Ryan Adams showed plenty as well, at least for a nervous debut. This kid can hit. Not much power, but that could come, as it did with BRob. And I didn’t see this terrible fielding we keep hearing about. No GG perhaps, but so what?
Speaking of whom, forget Roberts. A 33-year-old with a nasty concussion has little future. For his sake, he needs to get out. Also forget this Antonelli guy. He has bum written all over him. I’ll bet he doesn’t’[ make it out of ST.
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