Rosenthal: Orioles shake up scouting department
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 12:12 PM EST
in News & Rumors
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PrintThere have been some postings on the Twitter this morning hinting about it, and now here's Ken Rosenthal to confirm what was suspected: the Orioles have made a major shake-up in the scouting department.
Don't go getting too excited. This doesn't mean a Stockstill has been fired. What it does mean is that six scouts in the Orioles' professional scouting department - what I guess would be advance scouts - have been re-assigned to amateur scouting. According to Rosenthal, this will leave only two scouts in the professional department, and the six re-assigned scouts may be more inclined to "view the assignments as little other than demotions." Among those who have been re-assigned are Lee MacPhail IV (nephew of Andy) and Jim Thrift (son of Syd), as well as former Oriole side-armer Todd Frohwirth.
Also on the Twitter, Jen Royle of 105.7, who typically covers the Ravens, formerly covered the Yankees and whom I suspect would rather be covering them still, has been inciting complaints from fans about the O's with negative comments about the changes, which she believes means the Orioles will have no more advance scouts. Rosenthal's article does not say this outright, but here's a quote from Dan Duquette on the reasoning behind the move:
"As you get more video and statistical analysis on a player, the longer they’re in professional baseball, it’s not as vital to have them seen by eyes, professional eyes," Duquette said. "Players establish a record of their work.
"Some of the trends that the statistics track, they’re not trends that professional scouts would normally see in a short look."
Another Royle source, or perhaps the same one, says that Duquette is "relying on the Bill James Handbook", which appears to be a cause of consternation for Royle but may sound more like a heavenly choir to Camden Chatters.
I think that Duquette's rationale in the Rosenthal article speaks for itself. If there were eight guys who were advance scouts, how many do you really need in the modern era of technology? The typical task of the advance scout would be to put together reports on the team the Orioles are about to face. I would say this is still essential, but can it be done without actually going and sitting in the stands and seeing the team? This seems to be Duquette's belief: that using available video resources in combination with statistical analysis can better identify trends about players than the traditional advance scouting report.
The fact that the scouts have been re-assigned to the amateur area is key here, because this doesn't indicate to me that the Orioles are simply being cheap. Rather, that Duquette is re-allocating his resources to where he believes that they can do the most good for the organization. It's a bold move, and based on the reactions, rather unconventional. As Orioles fans, we've seen our share of the conventional over the last fourteen seasons, and we've seen that the conventional is good for a series of sub-.500 seasons.
Noted snarker and ESPN analyst Keith Law was asked if all of this made sense, and he responded, "not in the least". With typical Law snark, he added: "You've just been demoted to a job you haven't done in 8-10 years and it's too late in the year for you to quit. How'll that go?" Law also explained that a "pro scout" typically covers both the minor and major leagues and that an advance scout would also be referred to as a "major league scout".
There is no indication from Rosenthal on what will be the assigned duties of the two remaining in the pro scouting department, Dave Engle and Bruce Kison. We also don't yet know whether the six re-assigned scouts were scouts who covered the minor leagues or whether they were advance scouts. Lee MacPhail IV was recently the director of the pro scouting department, until Duquette was hired and decided that a separate pro scouting department would no longer exist, so that's two demotions for him in a month. This would seem to be the inevitable fate for anyone who was hired by their own uncle, once the uncle himself had left the company.
UPDATE: Roch Kubatko says that Engle and Kison will remain as major league scouts. There is still no indication as to what the Orioles will be doing to cover minor league scouting in the interim.
What do you think? Will the new order of things result in the Orioles receiving better scouting reports on the opposition? Will this be yet another development in the long line of things that make us shake our head and say, "Oh, those Orioles"?
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Awesome news.
I had no idea Todd Frohwirth was still alive.
by Tezcatlipoca on Dec 16, 2011 12:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Man, I loved Todd Frohwirth
and that crazy-ass sine-wave slider he threw.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 16, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
My sarcasm didn't come through as much as I hoped.
I have rephrased slightly.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
who knows the result...
all i can say is what they’ve been doin in the past ain’t been workin.
"Three thousand years of beautiful tradition,from Moses to Sandy Koufax,YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT I'M LIVING IN THE FUCKING PAST!"- Walter Sobchak
by j.q. higgins on Dec 16, 2011 12:17 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
That's my knee-jerk reaction too.
Whatever they were doing already has not helped the team in the all-important “Don’t Suck” department. I have no idea if this will work either, but we can’t keep doing stuff just because this is how it’s always been done.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly jq
If nothing else, it tells me that Duquette won’t stand for this crap. Maybe his ideas wont’ work, but I appreciate the idea that he knows what we were doing sure wasn’t working.
I have to say, five weeks into the Duquette era, it could be signficantly worse.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
This is great!
Not so great – every one of the scouts reassigned was related to some orioles someone or other. A scouting department rife with nepotism does not get me confidence in ability.
by Benhem612 on Dec 16, 2011 12:18 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
May be enough to drive them into quitting
then he can hire his own people
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
by duck on Dec 16, 2011 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The structural changes make sense to me,
but it sounds like Duquette maybe went about making the changes in a bad way. If all the scouts really view this change as a demotion, the potential backlash is not good for the club. It may have made more sense to offer the advance scouts the position, or one final year as an advance scout so they have time to find a new job for next season. Hire new amateur scouts to fill any spots turned down by the current advanced scouts.
We’d spend one season slightly overstaffed, which isn’t the worst thing in the world, and a lot of drama is avoided.
this sounds reasonable although to be honest if I were an orioles pro scout
i’d be ecstatic to go look at amateur talent scout potentially the next matt wieters? or scout dana eveland? I choose cake please.
Additionally
How much do we really trust someone who has spent at least the most recent part of his career as an advance scout, prepping the team on short-term trends, to adequately judge amateur talent? They seem like very different skill sets. I give Duquette credit for trying something different, but it seems like he’s forcing a new system on ill-suited pieces, and they’re understandably upset about it.
This could be one of those things where we see why Duquette wasn't known for the social niceties.
Roch’s article says all of the scouts were already under contract for 2012.
Maybe by the time Duq got cracking, there weren’t any people left to hire as new amateur scouts.
Whether the O’s will end up with pissed off newly-assigned amateur scouts who aren’t worth much to the organization anyway will I guess depend on the professionalism of the six men concerned.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
what?
It may have made more sense to offer the advance scouts the position, or one final year as an advance scout so they have time to find a new job for next season.
If you think someone isn’t valable where they are, you don’t give them an extra year to stay there.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
I don't think he'd say theres no value to more advance scouts
just that theres diminishing returns with more than two. So we have more scouts than we need for a season, and we avoid developing a negative reputation with employees. And they aren’t being given an extra year, they’re being permitted to fullfill the duties of their contract as contemplated.
I've been a part of a company that brought in new managment
and did away with everything that just didn’t fit the new approach. Trust me, the people that survived knew the ones that got canned were done so for a reason. Yeah we lost friends, but those friends weren’t putting food in my mouth. It’s just business.
leave the gun, take the canoli!
"Three thousand years of beautiful tradition,from Moses to Sandy Koufax,YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT I'M LIVING IN THE FUCKING PAST!"- Walter Sobchak
by j.q. higgins on Dec 16, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
No one is being fired though
It probably also would have been better if we just fired all the advance scouts and hired new amateur scouts, if thats the approach we wanted to take. Forcing a whole group of people to do a job they think is below their current status is not good personnel management.
well
assistant manager at my office was stripped of his “assistant” status (which he only got becasue of years at the company) because we all knew he was bad at it. So when they company “got rid of the position”, even he knew what they were doing and he found a new job. What looks better on a resume – getting laid off or finding a new job while currently employeed? I know he got a great recomendation at his new company, so he is fine. A month later we hire a new guy with the title “Assistant Manager”.
obviously i wasn't comparing apples to apples
but why are we concerned about 6 scouts being demoted? I would like to think Duq knows what he is doing. And like it has been stated already, what has been happening – clearly wasn’t working. I doubt this is the end of the moves to be made, regardless of what was said. lets let it play out and see.
I overall like the move, though so many people hating it gives me pause
I just think it could have been handled better
Yeah!
My reaction is a big positive. Put the effort where it will pay off.
Who have these guys ‘scouted’ in the past? Atkins, Eaton, Guerrero, Lee, whoever. These guys represented years of flushing money down the toilet and frustrated the hell out of anyone wanting to see the franchise rebuild.
Klaw can suck an egg. If reallocating effort is a demotion, then guys will leave. I’m thinking DD won’t care. Maybe some of them NEED to go. KLaw, in his insulated baseball tower, is shielded from the corporate world where this kind of stuff happens all the time. People are reassigned where they are needed.
I wanted to give Royle some acknowledgment in this article because she was the first person on the story.
In a superficial, Twitter kind of way but still, she beat Rosenthal by two hours, even.
I couldn’t disagree more with the dismissive attitude with which she responded to the news. She deserves some credit in this instance, though. If we’re lucky, she’ll put this feather in her cap and fly back to New York or Boston.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
In fairness...
….Keith Law mentioned this scouting re-org about a week ago in one of his chats. Royle did provide the details though.
Where is the Baltimore Sun on this kind of stuff?
"I just crushed you with the crushing grip of logic and you still are fighting!" - Oscar Santana
http://dempseysarmy.blogspot.com
by DempseysArmy on Dec 16, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
There's not even been one tweet from the Sun guys about this.
It’s pretty sad.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Prediction:
Without a sufficient number of advance scouts, the Orioles will fail to make the playoffs in 2012.
I will also be so bold as to predict a below .500 season.
All because of the loss of advance scouts, of course.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
This is gonna sound crazy
But I think this move might put us in last place in the AL East. :(
Tommy hunter still sucks!
Oh noes! my playoffs are gone!
I'd put it this way; if an offense is a sugar cookie, on base percentage is the pastry part of the cookie, power is the icing, and baserunning is like the jimmies that they sprinkle onto the icing. - Bill James
by J(O's)elskIL on Dec 17, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
So, like, I'm biased here, obviously
and there are points to be made for both unconventionality and an attempt to rid yourselves of excesses and maximize investments. But a) those reassigned scouts are all walking next offseason, and there may be an issue trying to hire new scouts in the future with this public demoting, and b) will this work? That’s all about the specific things they do and look at and use and how they go about it, and none of us are ever going to know those specifics.
Your cannonball trajectory, it always gave me hope
I don't know, Andrew. You might know the specifics but not be able to tell us. :p
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
People in MLB get publicly demoted and fired all the time
It’s bound to happen and it’s nothing new. If you are in a postion where the quality of the product is dependent on you job then you should be well aware that you could get shit canned if the product fails. I really doubt there will be any issue hiring a scout because the previous one got demoted for doing a sub par job.
do we know they did a sub par job?
I’m uncomfortable guessing at strangers’ job performances.
Your cannonball trajectory, it always gave me hope
I know you're kidding around
but seriously: that’s not nearly a good enough rationalization for anything. The Orioles were awful, so Matt Wieters must be awful, too, right?
Your cannonball trajectory, it always gave me hope
I don't know man
15 years of utter failure seems like a pretty damn good reason to shake the hell out of the whole house regardless of whether there’s any specific evidence that any of the people did a particularly shitty job. That’s sort of the way it goes in baseball everywhere outside of Baltimore – when a new guy takes over an absolutely shitty team people tend to get moved around or get the boot. I don’t think we should make this into anything more than it is.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Here's Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus:
Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
The #Orioles have dissolved their pro scouting department. In other news, the #Orioles are complete morons.
Well… OK then.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 12:52 PM EST reply actions
So let's hear some details.
It’s easy to take snarky potshots. What exactly have the pro scouts done for the organization? What exactly have the amateur scouts produced? What options did DD have? To me this reflects DD’s stated emphasis on building the minors. MacPhail said the same and did pretty much nothing but draft high.
I suspect DD has limited resources and some deadwood he wants to get rid of. This is how it is done. The guys left at the pro scouting level will do their job and will be augmented when possible. I think DD has to pick just a couple areas to improve. It sure looks like bringing in better amateur talent is one of them. I don’t buy that it is moronic. It may not work out well, but neither did anything else while the O’s sat on their asses and did nothing to change things.
I don't think I like this at all.
Advance scouts are suppose to note current weaknesses among players. If a player has trouble turning on inside fastballs because a recent minor injury, the scouts are suppose to pick this up. You can’t consult a stats book to pick this up.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
I agree with that totally.
I love the fact that, only about a decade after most other teams, the O’s are FINALLY embracing stats.
But the best approach is a mix of the old-school and the new school….and the example above perfectly illuminates a weakness in this new approach.
Since nobody here knows exactly what the new approach will entail, what’s the point of rehashing the troll bait of professional gossips firing off tweets?
I doubt they’re going to leave something important unattended.
by Ampontan on Dec 16, 2011 11:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But you can look at a whole lot of recent video without having to have a guy in the stands.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
that actually brings up an interesting question....
what kind of vantage point do advance scouts have when they’re watching players? I’m guessing they’re literally sitting in good seats in the stands (like any fan who can afford those seats). If that’s the case, and I know I’m contradicting myself above, then video would work just as well.
But it still seems like they’d benefit from having more people, not just reallocating people.
How much does a scout cost, anyway? I imagine its a drop in the bucket of the overall payroll.
Just some anecdotal stuff
But I was at an Angels game with some great seats right behind the visitors dugout while the Rangers were in town. We were sitting three seats away from the Rangers scouts. You can see a lot from that vantage point but you can’t really see where pitches are located very well. I guess it depends on what you’re trying to scout.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
You live in Orange County?
We’ll have to watch some Angels game next year if so.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
I'm down.
I can try to get the company seats if they are available.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
kewl.
how the hell did you end up in OC? i’m assuming you grew up in VA, MD, DC.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Nope.
Actually only lived in Baltimore for five years. Grew up in SoCal.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
I would totally be an Angels fan if I grew in Orange County.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
I just never liked them.
I liked individual players like Wally Joyner, Chuck Finley, etc. Of the California teams, I liked the A’s the best. The late 80s teams were so good and so fun to watch. I just never loved the A’s, probably because I wasn’t in the area and couldn’t watch them. For some reason, I fell for the lovable losers in Baltimore. Probably because it was so fun to go to see the team at Camden.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
You poor, poor soul
I'd put it this way; if an offense is a sugar cookie, on base percentage is the pastry part of the cookie, power is the icing, and baserunning is like the jimmies that they sprinkle onto the icing. - Bill James
by J(O's)elskIL on Dec 17, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
what kind of vantage point do advance scouts have when they’re watching players? I’m guessing they’re literally sitting in good seats in the stands (like any fan who can afford those seats). If that’s the case, and I know I’m contradicting myself above, then video would work just as well.
Yeah, I thought scouts don’t like video vantage points. But maybe it doesn’t matter and they’re just defending their jobs.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
You can't?
Isn’t there tons of data available on how hitters are doing on particular pitches in particular locations available in real time? Even non-stat oriented networks like Fox have been showing hot zone charts for a while now.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
that's fine
but i’m talking injuries as well and how it might affect a player. scouts can do that. same with pitchers.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
What do you mean?
If it doesn’t show up in the stats, does it matter?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
well, yes, i'm saying injuries (and their possible effects) don't show up in the stats.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
whether or not that matters, i'll leave it up to each person.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
But if they don't show up
Why do they Orioles care about them? If they aren’t impacting outcomes, then do they matter?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
if a starter injuries his leg two weeks before facing the O's which cause him to favor to certain pitches,
let’s just say that’s an example. my point is that type of will not show up in small sample of numbers. sure, you could see that the pitcher favored certain pitches using pitchfx data, but the data has no scouting context. maybe the pitcher decided to change his pitch selection randomly. scouting puts those numbers in context.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
I mean I know what you're saying
I just think if it matters it’ll show up in stats and if it doesn’t there’s no reason it wouldn’t show up in video. A better example might be if a pitcher hurts his leg and it doesn’t impact his pitching, but impacts his ability to field bunts on the 3rd base side or cover first base – need a human to tell you that, but even that you could probably get from video.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
I just think if it matters it’ll show up in stats
It will show up in the stats. But like I said, when you’re looking at stats from one start or at a handful of at bats, those numbers need context.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Chanumas just asked about this above.
i thought scouts don’t like scouting from video since they feel like they pick up more nuance from live viewing. could be BS on their part though since they have vested interest in saying such things.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
well I'm sure scouts feel that way
since they probably want to defend their jobs…
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
This also assumes that the Oriole scouts who were doing this before were actually doing it effectively
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
keith... is that you?
j/k, that’s obviously a fair point. i just mentioned keith not because you were snarky but because it assumed Orioles incompetence.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Nick posted his thoughts.
http://camdendepot.blogspot.com/2011/12/os-scouting-shake-up-and-fall-out.html
by crawdaddy on Dec 16, 2011 1:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Nick told me he is doing a follow up tonight. Post any questions or comments over there if you want him to see them and address them.
by crawdaddy on Dec 16, 2011 2:18 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
this is bordering on spam.
please try to avoid dropping in a comment that just links to your blog.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
by zknower on Dec 17, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry about that.
I never thought of it as spam as we get about 95% of our traffic from other sources. You all post ~80% of our columns, so I thought a column related to the topic being discussed would be appreciated.
Although nothing has come from it, I had discussed ways Stacey and Andrew how we could work together with CC’s community of Orioles fans and my connections with ESPN. Without direction, I thought my participation in these comments would be of interest. I will refrain from posting articles in the future.
I think zk might have overreacted a little here
There was a problem with someone else’s comments being a little spam-y, but I’ve never had a problem with you pointing out new stuff over at Camden Depot.
Eh
On the one hand, what were our pro scouts worth? We certainly didn’t seem to be doing a good job at either scouting other teams to gain an advantage when we played them, nor do we seem to have done a very good job at identifying quality major league players to trade for or to sign as free agents.
On the other hand, I have no expectations that these disgruntled employees will perform their new duties well either, and this can only cement the notion that DD is a bad person to work for and the Orioles are a bad org to work for. And this I think matters a lot. I am a manager over other employees at work, and while I’m not in sports, I do know that when everyone is offering similar salaries and benefits that working conditions become paramount. People don’t want to work for assholes, and people don’t want to work in shitty environments. The Orioles, who already were notorious for having a poor work environment, took even more of a risk by hiring someone who was widely disliked at his last job in a MLB front office.
So far, this seems to me like a lot of DD’s player moves – the cost isn’t very high, but the payoff seems awfully low to justify the potential downside.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
I think you make a good point, but I think the institutional problems are beyond DD to solve
I think a full house cleaning is not a bad thing, but if it’s going to happen every few years there’s never going to be any forward progress.
Maybe I’m missing something, but it seems to me that scouting is scouting. If you are paid to scout full time, what does it matter where and whom you scout? Seems unnecessarily hierarchical to feel “demoted” because you are scouting amateurs.
by perpetualstudent on Dec 16, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I think scouting amateurs is in some ways a promotion, in terms of import and difficulty
But I don’t think scouting is scouting. I think that scouting major league players is very different than scouting high school players – you are looking for vastly different things under vastly different conditions.
To be understood is to be a prostitute. ~ Fernando Pessoa
My guess is it's the level of luxury going with the existence.
If you’re humping it through random obscure places to see high school or junior college kids, that’s a pretty big step down from getting to go to the big league parks and see the big league players in big league cities.
You might be staying in a Holiday Inn Express either way, but there’s more in the city to make the life feel like less of a grind.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
I think you're right
but the sense of entitlement really has no place in a team going nowhere.
by perpetualstudent on Dec 16, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
This seems like an "inside the industry" thing.
Those nuances might be significant within the scouting community. And perception matters, no matter what anyone says.
I'd put it this way; if an offense is a sugar cookie, on base percentage is the pastry part of the cookie, power is the icing, and baserunning is like the jimmies that they sprinkle onto the icing. - Bill James
by J(O's)elskIL on Dec 17, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
So in other words
The Orioles should maintain a system that is financially inefficient and has had little in the way of practical results?
As for popularity contests, Showalter was disliked by a lot of players at his previous stops, too, particularly in Arizona.
You seem to miss the forest for the trees.
I don’t think DD intends the player moves to be high value.
The bigger issue is turning around an organization that already has the reputation as being a miserable place to work. How is DD making that worse? A brief history lesson. DD went to a Red Sox organization that had reportedly become rather lax (country club atmosphere) under Lou Gorman. He reorganized and streamlined the Boston scouting and minor leagues. He filled the minor leagues with his guys and instilled greater accountability. He expanded the scouting system to greater international scope and ultimately set the table for Epstein.
I see history repeating itself, and I expect to see the minors undergo some reorg. I don’t expect Baltimore to become anything like Boston, and DD will eventually hit a brick wall with money or a certain owner. But what is happening now is similar to what happened before with Boston, and that didn’t turn out all that bad despite the fact that the Boston media tore DD apart.
what makes you think the employees are disgruntled?
beyond some BS Royle tweets?
They may have had salary increases and/or other perqs improved. They may have a higher ownership level in terms of how their work is valued. They may have far better travel schedules, which means they can see their families more often.
Personally, I think the idea of having 8 pro scouts is ridiculous.
"End of season like this, to make Boston go home sad, crying, I’ll take it all day."—Robert Andino
only thing I am against here
Is that he could be using the Bill James’ handbook for pro scouting. Everyone knows that most of his estimations are so overly optimistic, not to mention outsourcing your work like that is like a portfolio investor relying solely on Mad Money
Well
if Jen Royle and Keith Law don’t like this, then I’m pretty sure everything will turn out alright.
"I think not sucking is way more of an important thing to pay attention to first." -- Gabe Newell
The Sun finally joined the party
From Dan Connolly’s post on today’s shakeup:
The club’s two big league scouts, Bruce Kison and Dave Engle, will continue in their roles. However, the six remaining pro scouts, most of whom who had specific organizations assigned to them, have been offered jobs as amateur scouts, preparing reports on draft-eligible players. That list includes Jim Thrift, who was the Orioles’ advance scout – he would watch and then issue reports on teams the Orioles were about to play – and Lee MacPhail IV, who had been the pro scouting director. He was demoted to pro scout last month.
Thrift has been offered a job as an amateur scout in western Florida; MacPhail, an amateur scouting job in Michigan, Ohio and West Virginia. Four other scouts — Jim Howard (New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania), Ted Lekas (New England), James Keller (roamer, assisting in California) and former Oriole Todd Frohwirth (Dakotas, Wisconsin, Minnesota) — also were offered reassignments.
Director of pro scouting to scouting amateurs in Michigan, Ohio and West Virginia in a month is a bit of a demotion.
Still not clear on what Kison and Engle have been doing and what they will continue to be doing.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 4:44 PM EST reply actions
Mmm...yeaaah, Todd...
We’re going to need you to go ahead and move your desk to South Dakota. Mmmkay?
"They're throwing bottles at your house...Come on, let's go break their arms." - Henry Fool
by Fahrenheit 451 on Dec 16, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
West Virginia is a beautiful place!
Probably less traffic, too.
by perpetualstudent on Dec 16, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
So I guess this is how it went
Dan walks in, puts up a map of the US on the wall, lays three darts on the table and says “PA won’t let me fire you, so I got an idea”.
So, wait a second...
Pro Scouts were responsible for scouting the minor leagues of other teams… And we just eliminated those positions, moving them to scouting of amateurs.
So, in other words, we’re going to rely on video scouting of the minor league systems of other teams. Because we all know that video from the minors is top quality stuff.
Now I pretty much understand why this is being blasted as a terrible idea.
Pro Scouts were responsible for scouting the minor leagues of other teams… And we just eliminated those positions, moving them to scouting of amateurs.
i think the pro scouts were responsible for scouting pro teams (?).
So, in other words, we’re going to rely on video scouting of the minor league systems of other teams. Because we all know that video from the minors is top quality stuff.
No, it just said those pro scouts will now scout amateur talent for the draft. It didn’t say anything about reducing scouts for the minor leagues.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
Based on the Dan C article, it seems that the pro scouts covered specific orgs from top to bottom for trade/waiver purposes.
Jim Thrift was the advance scout who was 1-2 teams ahead filing reports, and he has also been reassigned.
I am not sure how two guys are supposed to cover 29 other organizations, and I’m not sure who will be doing the video/stats analysis that Duquette was quoted as saying in the Rosenthal article.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
The minors are pro teams
Amateurs are college and high school kids.
According to Law: ""pro scout" covers minor leagues and maybe majors. Scout who only covers majors is typically called “major league scout.”"
And the above linked article says: “pro scouts, most of whom who had specific organizations assigned to them” which implies minor leagues, not just the major league team.
Seems to me like they’re majorly cutting back on scouting other teams’ minor leagues.
This is a fair assessment based on what's been reported today.
Seems to me like they’re majorly cutting back on scouting other teams’ minor leagues.
Dan Connolly was asked if the plan to scout the minors is all video/stats and he answered yes. He also said that the Orioles “could put a scout on special assignment if a certain team is a trade match”.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
the blue jays did this when JP took over
and it’s a move that i think he later regretted and something AA addressed when he took over.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that DD doesn't intend to hire anyone else now that he's brought in his own scouting director
I’d be very surprised if he just stopped scouting the minor leagues. I mean, how which he know which players he wants when he trades Wada at the deadline?
by perpetualstudent on Dec 16, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
And Keith Law does in fact like something the O's did today - hiring of new national crosschecker Danny Haas.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 4:47 PM EST reply actions
it's unavoidable...
"Three thousand years of beautiful tradition,from Moses to Sandy Koufax,YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT I'M LIVING IN THE FUCKING PAST!"- Walter Sobchak
by j.q. higgins on Dec 16, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
Nepotism is a great way to ruin any organization.
Why were “Lee MacPhail IV (nephew of Andy) and Jim Thrift (son of Syd)” still employed by the O’s? Baseball is so f-ing inbred.
Thank you, Duquette, for beginning to clear out the dead wood!
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else." - EW
Jim Thrift was not hired by Syd Thrift, I should point out.
Jim Thrift was hired to be the advance scout in January 2009.
"So I said, 'Looks like they've finally got Ogea in the pen. I wonder if the glove fits.' I thought I was going to get fired." - Mike Flanagan, RIP
by Eat More Esskay on Dec 16, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think it's been pointed out yet, guys, but
Another Royle source, or perhaps the same one, says that Duquette is “relying on the Bill James Handbook”, which appears to be a cause of consternation for Royle but may sound more like a heavenly choir to Camden Chatters.
Andrew’s running the fucking Orioles!
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
whoever that source is,
he or she is obviously bitter and i think is using the phrase “the Bill James handbook” in a derisive way.
Kevin Gregg-"You obviously haven't acquired my taste for pitching yet"
But's Andrew's running the Orioles!!!!!
"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know, that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom?" ~ Death
Go Duquette. Clean house.
I love this idea. Admittedly, I like the idea of having scouts watching other minor league games, but I think that stressing amateur drafting is even more important. Rest assured, the Orioles WILL be getting high draft picks for a couple of more years, so this is what to focus on now. IF a guy can make it to AA and is making waves, we have scouts for that. But sending guys to every minor league game? I’m fine with having video for that.
For now, go Duquette! Get rid of ALL the McPhails.
I blogged today about the new Economist that we hired (YUP). Really excited about that hot pick up.
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