Yet Another Word on Vlad
Fact: I am fatigued of Vladimir Guerrero talk.
But then Stacey told me that we can never escape talking about Vlad Guerrero because he's going to lead the Orioles to the World Series and I thought, hey, that seems like a pretty good trade on my part. I'd be dumb not to keep talking about the guy! And anyway, judging from the rash of commenting, it seems like if I have a duty as a blogger to keep milking Vlad for all the discussion in the world.
Also I wanted to bring up two new totally separate points for you all to ponder.
The first takes us back to the heady days of Jay Gibbons: Oriole. He was a man who had a handful of okay seasons in the black and orange and was foolishly signed to a somewhat lucrative contract extension in January of 2006. Immediately after signing said contract, our old pal Jay began what some would call a cliff dive of horrors, playing (sometimes - the guy was hurt a lot) poorly for two years, through the summer of 2007.
That summer was noteworthy for the Orioles because it brought Andy MacPhail to the team. And when spring training of '08 rolled around, Andy MacPhail said that he'd rather pay Jay twelve million dollars not to play for the Orioles than to watch him continue to flop about and embarrass himself and the organization. When that happened, I know that I finally believed in MacPhail as a man who would not accept bad performance, regardless of the cost. I was ecstatic.
Three years later, and it's a pretty easy joke to make that if a player used to be on Andy MacPhail's Cubs teams, then he will probably be targeted to come to Baltimore. MacPhail does love his old Cubbies. And on one level, I understand entirely. We all have our favorite players that we hang our hats on and are proud to say "I wanted this guy, I believed in this guy first, and he's proven to all of you how right I was about him".
I don't know if GMs (or any of us) think in such clear and concise ways. But it does seem (sometimes horribly) true that the players a GM brings into an organization get far more opportunities than the players a GM inherits. Jay Gibbons was inherited, he wasn't Andy's guy, and he was let go almost immediately. And that, importantly, was to the benefit of the team.
Signing Vlad Guerrero signaled to me rather definitively that Andy MacPhail doesn't see much more promise of stardom in Felix Pie, who was a top Cub prospect under MacPhail and was then brought to Baltimore by MacPhail and who was given a lot of perhaps unearned opportunity on the Orioles. And I suspect that the decision to take playing time away from Felix was a hard one for Andy MacPhail, but I also suspect that it was a good one for the franchise. Even if you disagree about Pie specifically, you have to be encouraged by the mindset. After all, nothing - not one thing - is more important to team building than recognizing precisely what you do and do not have.
I know this sounds very small and very patronizing, but I don't know how else to put it: Kudos for that, Mr. MacPhail.
And now for something completely different.
The other day I talked briefly about how my offensive expectations for the 2011 Orioles had altered by replacing Felix Pie and Corey Patterson from the '10 lineup with Vlad Guerrero. I presented a couple of different kinds of scenarios, invited you to make your own private guess at what the difference would be in runs scored, and declared that I would expect about ten extra runs* (for whatever that's worth).
*I was later talking on twitter to my e-friend Daniel Moroz. We agreed that while 110 extra runs scored over 2010 is a decent expectation, this lineup certainly has the ability to go higher, up to an additional 40 runs (if not more). But that'd be a pleasant surprise more than anything else, I think. Then again, they could also score a lot less than what I expect, which would be rather unpleasant.
But what I didn't talk about was how Vlad affects everyone else, and mostly what I have in mind is to talk about Adam Jones and Matt Wieters. These two guys have stagnated offensively and I think there's logical sense in suggesting that the enormous pressure on them (particularly in 2010) to become middle of the lineup type hitters contributed to that stagnation. Perhaps moving them to the 7 and 8 holes will lessen the pressure and allow them to perform.
I'm not sure I buy that for Adam Jones. His best numbers, and where he's spent more time hitting than anywhere else, come in the 2 hole, which isn't exactly hiding him from the spotlight. Additionally, if the pressure to carry a team that needed more help than it had in 2010 got to Adam, it didn't manifest in him hacking at more pitches, nor did it result in him swinging and missing at more pitches, both of which would be strong indicators for me of frustration and/or pressure (see, for example, Josh Bell). Jones also recovered well in the middle of the summer after a miserable first two months.
In short, I suspect that Adam Jones has a lot of holes in his game, but I don't think pressure to perform or lack of supporting talent is to cause for any of them.
Matt Wieters' peripherals remained constant between his rookie season and his very disappointing 2010 with one exception: he didn't hit nearly as many line-drives. Instead, he rolled the ball onto the ground more often, and predictably watched his batting average suffer, even while he was walking more, striking out less, and hitting for a similar amount of power.
Is that a result of a lack of supporting talent in the lineup around Wieters, or having too much pressure on himself? You know, it really could be. The kid is playing with such monstrously large expectations that it seems obscene to suggest that pressure doesn't factor into his poor performance. I also suspect that Wieters would be the first to offer that obscene suggestion, which is a part of why I like the guy so much.
So I don't really know if Wieters or Jones or anybody else will get better because of the revamped lineup. I expect to see them perform better in 2011 independent of the lineup around them, and I do hope that Vlad and Derrek Lee and the rest of our new hitters do give them a more development-friendly atmosphere to hit in. But should I expect even more runs being scored out their bats because of any one free agent signing? I don't think so.
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sabermetrics question
But should I expect even more runs being scored out their bats because of any one free agent signing? I don’t think so.
So i dont believe in protection, i’m mostly a saber guy in most areas. However, I think hitting a good lineup would make things easier for a player to perform well. It would be hard to statistically break down b/c I would think it would be hard to isolate players going from a bad lineup to good or good to bad that dont have other factors going on. But in a good lineup, if the rest of the team works the count, you get to bullpens sooner and to the weak part of them more. How would that affect a player? If you say each hitter gets 30 extra AB’s against a middle reliever instead of a starting pitcher, wouldn’t it just make sense that he would be able to produce more?
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
that's a pretty smart idea
but 30 PA doesn’t really amount to much compared to the other 600 they’ll receive
FROG SAYS PROTECT HOME
Yea probably true
But not having a black hole at 6-9 will make things harder on the pitcher for sure. Which i’m looking forward to, until injuries strike.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Feb 9, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
so i don't buy lineup protection and all that
but there has to be a cumulative advantage to filling your lineup with good hitters that goes beyond what each individual provides on his own. whether that’s because they get to the relievers faster or not, i don’t know.
but we do know that players generally hit better with runners on base:
bases empty: .315 OBP, .396 SLG
at least one base occupied: .339 OBP, .412 SLG
that’s a pretty big difference. a whole bunch of guys that get on base more should lead to those guys getting on base even… more. if you know what i mean.
a team can definitely outhit its cumulative runs above average (or whatever stat you want to use)
by hitting better with runners on base. One of the first things I noticed about the 2010 Orioles was that they hit substantially worse with runners on base than without, and their actual runs scored total was considerably less than what they would be projected to score based on their team wOBA because of it.
So that’s a good point, too.
FROG SAYS PROTECT HOME
adam jones k/bb
just for yucks, i looked at Ks and BBs for the good doctor in the lineup spots where he has the most PAs. he has nearly 600 batting 2nd and Ks every 5.36 times up while taking a walk every 19 times up.
5th: 5.2/23.5 (235 PA)
6th: 7.03/17 (225 PA, 191 of which came in 2010 in which he also had a .395 OBP and a .577 SLG)
7th: 3.78/20.75 (249 PA)
8th: 5.21/24.21 (193 PA)
Just enjoy the beats.
-Guts
disregard comment below...
I had no idea he was there so often.
Get 'em.
"it ain't no sin in goin to da scrip club."
Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame, Class of 2010
by danielreese05 on Feb 9, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure I buy that for Adam Jones. His best numbers, and where he’s spent more time hitting than anywhere else, come in the 2 hole
I know you’re all about how small sample size can’t be trusted, how much time did he spend in the 2 hole?
Get 'em.
"it ain't no sin in goin to da scrip club."
Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame, Class of 2010
in total not a lot
553 PA – about a season’s worth. But that’s twice as many as he’s had in any other position, and the point is that he didn’t exactly wilt in the role, regardless of the sample size.
FROG SAYS PROTECT HOME
I dont think that where a batter hit makes any difference
Except for maybe the first hitter, who has to face a starting pitcher without seeing somebody else step in first, every other spot has pretty much the same opportunities. Logically i dont see how hitting 5th is any different from 7th.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Feb 9, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Fact: I am fatigued of Vladimir Guerrero talk.
Oh yes. Me too. I was going to do a fanpost an Vlad but I think I’m Vladded out. In any case, good stuff Andrew. I wish I add something interesting to add but I don’t!
I am observing and judging you.
Not me
Okay, temporarily I am. But I’ll let you know what I see in March, and we’ll continue this again.
Another nice post.
I think it is an insightful observation on thinking the Guerrero signing might be a sign that MacPhail at a point that he doesn’t believe Felix is going to achieve his projected ceiling.
It is a bit sad, in a way, but I agree that in the bigger picture, it is what one wants to see in their GM.
"Try to look unimportant; they may be low on ammo." - Infantry Journal
The first half
I agree that McPhail probably has soured a bit on Pie’s potential, and that made it easier for him to sign Vlad. What I think is really unfortunate is that Reimold most likely gets sent to AAA because he has an option left, whereas Pie will stay as the 4th outfielder. Not that Pie couldn’t show substantial improvement this season in that role, but he hasn’t necessarily blown anybody away in his albeit limited action. From a developmental standpoint I think Reimold deserves another extended look in the majors because his rookie season showed promise (at least offensively). That’s why even though I’ve always loved Vlad, the signing is a little sour.
A lot can happen over the course of a season.
If Reimold is ripping up AAA – assuming that’s where he starts the season – he makes it easy for Baltimore to call him up. The only way it isn’t easy is if everyone is healthy and Scott, Guerrero and Pie are all playing well. That is a good thing.
"Try to look unimportant; they may be low on ammo." - Infantry Journal
fwiw...
over the last two years, pie has been worth almost 3 wins more than garrett olson.
Just enjoy the beats.
-Guts
fwiw
so have I. what is he, -2 or something?
Get 'em.
"it ain't no sin in goin to da scrip club."
Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame, Class of 2010
by danielreese05 on Feb 9, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
easy, tough guy...
(close, though): pie=1.9, olson=-1
net win for macca!
Just enjoy the beats.
-Guts
I wonder
if Vlad swinging for everything within the wingspan of a Boeing 747 yet making contact will have an effect on someone like the good Dr, making him think he can do it too? That could be disastrous yet funny.
We need runs, period.
After a next-to-last finish in AL runs, it is clear that the O’s need to score more. They finished 8th in hits, but next to last in BB and runs. We are not advancing runners. Also, our slugging percentage is ridiculously low. We are a team of singles hitters! Teams like Detroit, New York and Texas start their scoring by either starting the inning on 2nd (doubles) or hitting doubles instead of singles with RISP. I would give up a little team BA in exchange for more SLG%, and by extension, runs.
"Happiness is a learned condition." - Tom Robbins
Yes, but it's not just Andy now...
Let’s not forget that Buck Showalter is a major player in the Orioles’ decision making process these days, and has as much input as Andy in determining who’s a “nugget” and who isn’t.
The Vlad Effect
I agree that his presence will have an impact beyond if it hits as well as he did in the past. I agree that he will help Wieters as well as Nick Markakis.
Wieters was given the title of savior even before he was called up and being a catcher and running a pitching staff certainly put a lot on his plate. He can sit in the #7 hole and just play now. We should get a much better idea of what type of MLB player he will be this season.
Jones is another issue. Buck Showalter will be the best influence for him and I expect a big year from him. I think Jones fell victim to what many young Orioles of the recent past have. “I’m here. I know I’ll play and the team has no other options. I’ll do what I want.”
The first time he jogs out a grounder or publicly says that he won’t play deeper in Center should be fun to watch. He’ll be picking splinters.
"Have a good time...all the time." - Viv Savage

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