Bird Food: Fangraphs 2011 Organizational Rankings: #15 – Baltimore
For the past couple of weeks, fangraphs has been publishing their annual rankings of baseball franchises. As you may know, these rankings came under quite a bit of scrutiny last year because they were perceived as being arbitrary and highly subjective. In particular, Dave Cameron may never live down the #6 ranking given to the Mariners last year. This year, fangraphs has published an explanation of their logic behind the rankings in order to make the rankings more transparent. And on Monday, fangraphs declared the O's as the 15th best franchise. Why? Well, let's take a look-see.
Average performances in all four categories leads to the biggest surprise in the rankings thus far. Baltimore certainly should be considered a team on the rise, but is it enough to justify their lofty position here?
Well, it's no fun when the authors begin with the notion that your team is crappy however justified. But 15th is "lofty'? Try not to kill us with too much praise. How dare you rank the O's as decidedly mediocre!
Baltimore finished with an Overall Rating of 77.45, but the teams that finished in the 15-19 slots were separated by less than a single point. This means that the rankings were extremely tight, and there’s no real difference between the placements of the teams in this grouping. If you wouldn’t have been upset with Baltimore at #19, then treat this accordingly, as a small change in voting could have knocked them down several pegs.
And just in case you're still offended by the O's lofty ranking, the author wanted to point out that 15th is really interchangeable with 19th. So maybe the O's are really just as bad as you initially believed.
Present Talent – 75.00 (T-20th)
Future Talent – 85.00 (T-5th)
Financial Resources – 72.69 (23rd)
Baseball Operations – 62.50 (30th)
These rankings struck me as odd. As far as financial resources go, I'll refrain from commenting on that. But future talent is fifth? I'm assuming a lower number means better in this case. If so, 5th seems awfully generous. The O's have two uber prospects and then a whole lot of uninspiring prospects. I'm not sure how that type of talent ends up fifth since that category is suppose to measure the strength of the farm system.
And baseball operations as 30th? This category is suppose to measure:
Here we will evaluate the relative merits of each organization in terms of acquiring and developing talent. The organizational philosophy and interest level by the executive level will be included, as will the abilities of the front office to identify how to put together a big league roster, the perceived quality of the organization’s scouting department, and the on-field development staff that helps the players develop their talent into productivity.
I'm not a huge fan of Andy MacPhail, but 30th seems a bit harsh. Surely, Andy MacPhail and his various player development/scouting departments rank ahead of the Nationals, Astros, and Royals who, despite having an uber farm system, haven't developed anyone outside of Butler and Greinke. I'm not sure if there was another article detailing the scoring, but certain individual scores assigned to each component still seem a bit arbitrary.
Their present talent doesn’t rate well now, but a big reason for that is based on the fact that they recently promoted many of their youngsters who are still adjusting to the major leagues. If Matt Wieters, Brian Matusz,Chris Tillman and Jake Arrieta (to name a few) start to reach their potential, the Orioles major league talent could experience a significant jump in the rankings.
Fair enough.
When the team did contend in the mid-90s, Angelos authorized heavy spending to import key free-agents. The Orioles tried the same approach in 2004, when they signed Miguel Tejada, Rafael Palmeiro andJavy Lopez to lengthy contracts. When Angelos realized that approach didn’t work, the team attempted to focus on building a strong farm system.
I don't think Angelos realized squat. He went with a youth movement because that's what Andy wanted and he supported his decisions.
While the Orioles’ 2010 off-season was relatively quiet, in recent years they have aggressively pursued Mark Teixeira and Paul Konerko; a sign that the team may start spending once they realize the gains of their young stars.
Aggressively pursued Mark Teixeira?! The O's made a substantial offer but it was well below market value. They were counting on a hometown discount to land Teixeira and didn't want to get into a bidding war him with the Yankees. That's understandable, but let's not pretend they were aggressive in their pursuit.
While finishing in last place every season makes the Orioles look like a hopeless franchise, it’s more a statement on the talented teams within their division. If the Orioles were in the NL Central or NL West, for instance, they would be talked about as a potential surprise team by many analysts this season. Unfortunately, they have to compete with three of the best teams in baseball and the Blue Jays (who look dangerous under Alex Anthopoulos). This gives the perception that the Orioles will continue to fail when they would most likely be competitive in other divisions, but divisional strength wasn’t a factor in these ratings.
Yeah, yeah. I mean I realize that this statement has a lot of substantive merit. And even with all of the crap Keith Law gets about how he's pessimistic about the O's, even he was willing to make a similar point. I realize the author is trying to give some (faint) praise to the O's. But all it seems hollow because of this thing called reality. Until the O's learn to outsmart the other AL teams, it'll never look good. I was listening to Bob Dylan's Time Out of Mind while writing this post. As Bobby D said, "It's not dark yet, but it's getting there."
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Relatively Quiet
Signed Lee and Vlad as FA and traded for Reynolds and Hardy. This side of Boston did anyone have an off season with more noise?
*look-see
"I have spent most of the day putting in a comma and the rest of the day taking it out." --Oscar Wilde
*oops
i will also accept whoopsadaisy or whoopty-doo
"I have spent most of the day putting in a comma and the rest of the day taking it out." --Oscar Wilde
I don't really get these rankings
You didn’t comment on financial resources, but I will. I know we don’t know exactly how much they have, but we do know that the Oriole are one of only a few teams that own an RSN. Are there really only seven teams in a worse financial situation than the Orioles? Last year there were 13 teams with lower payroll than them and their payroll has gone up this season by over $10M. Maybe if they’re taking into account willingness to spend money, which is kind of subjective, but even so they acknowledge that Angelos has been willing to shell out in the past.
They don't have to be good. They just have to be there. - EME
I think it takes into account the ability to get the most for the money
The jury may be out on Matt Wieters’s signing bonus, but everybody thought the Gonzalez and Gregg contracts were stupid.
by perpetualstudent on Mar 29, 2011 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Well then they should change what they call it
From Financial Resources to something like Financial Acumen
They don't have to be good. They just have to be there. - EME
I think it takes into account the ability to get the most for the money
I thought that was covered under baseball operations. To quote, “the abilities of the front office to identify how to put together a big league roster.”
Folksy literate type.
I would think
with fangraphs, that would be something akin to dollars spent per win above replacement?
It’s still hard to fathom being DEAD LAST. Yes, there’s been a lot of questionable or worse contracts given out….but last place? No bonus points for savvy trades?
In 1914 Charles Mulligan got drunk, wandered into a field, and punched a man to death. Well, that man turned out to be a cow, and that cow turned out to be a delicious steak.
that would be something akin to dollars spent per win above replacement?
I guess.
If Omar Minaya and Tony Bernazard were still running the Mets, the O’s should have ranked ahead of those clowns as well.
Folksy literate type.
And as far as we know
there has never been ANY concern about payroll or draft spending or any other type of budgetary pressure for the O’s over the past 10-15 years. There are way more than 7 teams where that can’t be said.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
This whole thing strikes me as 50% just plain wrong
And 50% nothing I haven’t heard ten thousand times before.
Less big words and more exclamation marks
by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Mar 29, 2011 8:50 AM EDT reply actions
Didn't we bid competitively with Tex?
I remember bidding fairly high for him, maybe a little higher than the Yanks were at. Granted I think Andy and the nats both realized that Tex wasn’t interested so there wasn’t much point in bidding higher
Wigglypuff uses Walk Off. Papelbon faints. -Jakattak88
We did.
The O’s made a substantial offer but it was well below market value.
This sentence makes no sense to me. You can’t have a market value for the player until a market is established.
The O’s made an offer of $140M, early in the bidding and before there was any ‘market’ (unless you count Boras’ laughable notion that it would take $200M to get id done). The O’s had the second-highest offer at the time, behind the Nationals’ offer of $160M (the Nats were going one extra year).
That the Yankees swooped in at the last moment to offer $180M is only further proof that the Orioles were in the neighborhood, because the Yankees don’t set the market, they always exceed it. Ditto Boston.
"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and a little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott
The O’s made an offer of $140M, early in the bidding and before there was any ‘market’ (unless you count Boras’ laughable notion that it would take $200M to get id done). The O’s had the second-highest offer at the time, behind the Nationals’ offer of $160M (the Nats were going one extra year).
That the Yankees swooped in at the last moment to offer $180M is only further proof that the Orioles were in the neighborhood, because the Yankees don’t set the market, they always exceed it. Ditto Boston.
Well, $140M is lots of dough. So I thought it was substantial. I don’t think it was a phantom offer either to appease fans. If Teixiera would have taken the offer, he would be Oriole now. At the same time, it was $40M below market value, hence my sentence. And I suspect the Yankees didn’t sweep in the last minute. I know that’s how it was portrayed in the press, but I don’t believe it for a second. I suspect that the Yanks wanted Teixiera from the get go, but wanted to let the bidding play out. I suspect Cashman conveyed his interest and told Boras to get back to him once the bidding is drawn out. And I highly doubt it was Teixiera’s wife who nudged him to sign with the Yankees (as described by him in the press conference). I suspect the Yanks were always high on his list despite the spur of the moment way he described and I suspect that he conveyed this preference to Boras from the get go. If you want an example of aggressive, look at the Nats who actually had the highest offer on the table.
Folksy literate type.
Sorry, I wasn't clear....
I wasn’t arguing it wasn’t substantial; I was arguing that the O’s offer was NOT below market value.
and I still maintain that. The market value is not what the player ultimately signs for, it’s a kind of soft number that amalgamates all the offers.
If I go into Gelson’s and pay $3.49 for a quart of milk, that’s not the value of milk. Gelson’s is overcharging me. It’s not an exact analogy, since Tex is a limited commodity of 1, but to suggest that somehow the number of Brinks trucks the Yankees empty for a player defines that player’s market value is not accurate either.
"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and a little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott
fair enough
frankly, i’m not sure what’s the exact definition of market value in these cases. should it be highest bid? should be the average of all bids on the table? or should it be something else all together?
Folksy literate type.
market value depends on what it is
In general, whatever you can get for it on the ‘open market’ is market value (dont smack me i know that comment was dumb). Although (like with Werth), i think they overpaid significantly and that doesn’t mean that players is worth more. For example if you offered double somebody’s asking price on a house, that doesn’t make its ‘market value’ more, that just means you paid too much. So what i would do to get around that is use the second highest bid as the ‘market value’ (at that time) because essentially every dollar paid above that is excess (or a required premium to get them to go to a terrible location).
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Mar 29, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
In general, whatever you can get for it on the ‘open market’ is market value
Yeah, in general, but I’m not sure if that applies with baseball. Buying commodities and a person’s highly specialized services are a bit different. For example, the market for a used 16 GB iPad is about $350 on ebay and CL (and yes, I’m aware that Verizon had them cheaper but they’re sold out). As you mentioned with houses, you could pay more (dumb!) or less (get lucky), but in general you should expect to pay about $350 for an used 16 GB iPad. With people’s services, the price changes depending on the client. For example, with Teixiera, he declined the higher price to sign with the Yankees. His market value (i.e, the price to get him to use your definition) was substantially higher for the Nats. Physical goods don’t work that way. I personally don’t like the second highest price method because I’m not sure what that number tells me. If we define market value by the average price that teams are willing to pay for the services of a player, then the price is very different. And if I remember correctly, the O’s still gave a bid below market value using this method as their bid was one of the lowest with the average bid getting pushed upwards by the Yanks’ and Nationals’ offers.
Folksy literate type.
I think we agree with that first part
Specialized services aren’t easy to value.
The part i dont like about average cost is that you would constantly be undervaluing the player’s market value. This is because the average bid is going to be less than the top bid in most normal circumstances. Also you can get a wide variety of offers (how do you treat offers made early in the process the same as a final offer that was upped). The second highest makes sense to me because if that top offer wasnt there, that would be the offer left. So if one team gets way too excited about a player it wouldnt reflect that in his market value.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Mar 30, 2011 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m confused about the value of the second highest offer but whatever. I mean the top offer IS there, I’m not sure why it helps to think of it as not there. And I’m not sure why it’s excess money (i.e., the diff between the 1st and 2nd highest bids) because that money was needed to land the client. Excess money suggest it isn’t important money.
Folksy literate type.
In case anyone is interested
Here’s what was on the table for Teixeira. He signed for 8 years, $180M with the Yankees.
Nationals: 8 year, $185M
Orioles: 7 years, $140M
Red Sox: 8 years, $168M
Angels: 8 years, $162M.
140+162+168+180+185 = 835/5 = $167 average bid. Granted, this assumes newspaper reporting is accurate and this doesn’t count unreported bids.
Folksy literate type.
yes but
the question is, what bids were on the table when the O’s made their offer, not what all the eventual bids were.
As was made very clear at the time, Boras stopped returning the O’s calls. So the O’s offer might well have been a market offer when they put it out there.
"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and a little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott
Teixeira wasn't planning on coming to Baltimore,
so the $140M offer really doesn’t mean much of anything. As you point out, they could’ve offered the moon and it would have mattered not.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
by dfa on Apr 1, 2011 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm really surprised at these rankings
Sure these kinds of fun exercises are ultimately pointless, but nonetheless I don’t see how it’s remotely true. Divorcing the team from its division for a moment, this team still has serious flaws in its development and international scouting. Not that it’s a necessity, but the team lacks viable long term solutions on the right side of the infield (although I’m a bigger believer in LJ than most). Not too mention how uninspiring MacPhail is.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
fun but pointless sums it perfectly
i think fangraphs did a better job in explaining their logic this year, but it still doesn’t seem very clear.
Folksy literate type.
it did say that the rankings from 15-19 were separated by about a point
so we’re right in there with Seattle, the Cubs, Oakland, and Detroit. I think finishing in the middle of the pack with the three from the AL (though, Oakland and Detroit could still make the playoffs with some good luck) and with a close record to the Cubs is realistic.
"I have fear, but I am not afraid."
Music City Miracles Hall Of Fame, Class of 2010
by danielreese05 on Mar 29, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Regardless of division,
would you rather have the farm system, roster and front office of the Orioles over those clubs? It seems like especially the Mariners and A’s have better organizations top to bottom.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
Mariners really?
The team who traded for Bedard b/c he would put them over. That failed and then they traded for Cliff Lee because he would put them over. No, they suck. The A’s have a much better track record than us but financial resources probably pull them down.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Mar 30, 2011 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I like Jack Zduriencik
Sure much of their current team isn’t good, but they have a number of interesting pieces and Felix Hernandez. Plus Jack Z traded nothing to get Cliff Lee and received a nice prospect for him.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
The team who traded for Bedard b/c he would put them over.
That was the old GM who was a moron. Jack Z is a terrific GM. Just give him some time.
Folksy literate type.
Didn't know they changed GM's
I feel like i’ve been under a rock for quite some time. A new GM does make a difference.
"I have seen the future and his name is Matt Wieters." Keith Law
by Reddrummer9187 on Mar 31, 2011 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions

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