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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

About Last Night

So, I'm sitting here and I'm frustrated. I'm trying to reconcile my brain between the half of it that wants to freak out about last night and Kevin Gregg and Buck Showalter's commerical, and the other half that wants to say that it's just one game, these things happen to every single team every single year, and anyway second-guessing the manager is lame. I can't do it. I can't reconcile my brain. This Kevin Gregg thing is the worst, but at the same time I know that if Jorge Posada takes strike one, we're probably not thinking at all about anything but taxes or bike lanes or which is your favorite character on Parks and Recreation.

Still, it keeps playing over and over again in my head: "I know the save rule and, quite frankly, it doesn't hold much weight with me". Look, if you believe that Buck Showalter is going to use his bullpen in any way that isn't the 2011 standard, you're kidding yourself. Kevin Gregg is the closer, and he's going to get the save opportunities as they present themselves regardless of whether or not he is the best pitcher for that situation.

I can live with that as an abstract concept, because it's 2011 and everybody has a closer that they use in that exact same way. Which is stupid, anyway, but that's neither here nor there...although I will ask as an open question, is there any other position in baseball that is ruled so firmly by as arbitrary a concept as the "save situation"? Saves are supposed to measure a reliever's ability, but are instead used to determine when a reliever is used. It's all backwards.

Star-divide

But let's talk about Kevin Gregg, who the Orioles spent a lot of money on this past winter and who has been handed the closer position because....wait, why was Kevin Gregg handed the closer position? What did he do to deserve the ball in the ninth? Here's a list of reasons why Kevin Gregg was paid a lot of money to be the Orioles' closer:

1) Kevin Gregg led the American League East in saves in 2010, tied with Jonathon Papelbon.

2) He is a "proven closer" who has as many saves over the past three seasons as the great Heath Bell.

And now some interesting facts about why Kevin Gregg does not deserve to be the closer:

1) Over the past three seasons, Kevin Gregg has the most blown saves in baseball.

2) In that timeframe only two pitchers with at least 50 saves have worse ERAs: Fernando Rodney and Brad Lidge. Both of those pitchers have better save conversation rates than Gregg

3) Of the five relievers on the Orioles staff who could conceivably be considered for the closer position (since we simply must have a closer) - Gregg, Mike Gonzalez, Jeremy Accardo, Koji Uehara, and Jim Johnson - guess who has the worst career ERA? It's Kevin Gregg.

4) Of those relievers, who has the highest FIP? Gregg.

5) Gregg's WHIP is actually not the worst of the group, as Accardo and John both edge him out (1.35 and 1.37, respectively, versus 1.33).

So you can't make the argument that Kevin Gregg is the best reliever on this pitching staff. And you certainly can make the argument that he is the worst late-game option on this staff, outside of the very idea of having a "closer" (which is, again, a stupid idea that is horrible). And I honestly believe it's only a matter of time before Gregg is replaced as closer by someone (hopefully) better at pitching and not blowing leads than he is.

In the meantime, this slavish devotion to "saves" on the part of the Orioles as an entire organization will have them keep trotting a lesser reliever out there in the ninth, and a lot of the time that's going to put them in hot water, just like it did last night. And it will probably result in the Orioles spending another boatload of cash on a closer next winter, for the third straight year. Let's just hope that sooner rather than later the O's realize that the reason their hand hurts so much is that the "saves" stove is really, really hot.

Comment 66 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Gotta play some role

I just can’t imagine spending that money on someone and the manager being allowed to let them sit

"If you want money, go to the bank. If you want bread, go to the bakery. If you want goals, go to the net" -Brooks Laich

by sami426 on Apr 15, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would go with Ron

Back on the Sweed train. Choo Choo!
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller

by John Stephens on Apr 15, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree, Ron Swanson

Haverford’s a close second, though.

What up?

by snakethejake on Apr 15, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, Ron Swanson.

But to me the more interesting debate is who is more adorable: April or Anne. Yes, April’s attitude is sometimes really annoying, but there’s a good soul there. And Anne is awesome.

I would never have a shot with either of them anyway. Sigh. But SO CUTE.

"Might as well just win this game." - Adam Jones, 4/17/2008

Adam Jones is the tits.

by KenDixonFanClub on Apr 15, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

no, not Olney. But I hear good things.

by joe from onley on Apr 15, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

But

I also love Tom/DJ Roomba

no, not Olney. But I hear good things.

by joe from onley on Apr 15, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry, what?

no, not Olney. But I hear good things.

by joe from onley on Apr 15, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

put a subject line whenever you post graphics....

this way they can be collapsed by people with slow browsers/redraw

when you click on a subject line, it collapses the post below

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and a little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Apr 15, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, thanks

will do

no, not Olney. But I hear good things.

by joe from onley on Apr 15, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

KOJI! KOJI! KOJI!

He should be have used in the 8th, 9th, or 10th. In the 8th, he used JJ even though Cano has hit quite well against JJ in a number of ABs. Gonzo seemed like the obvious choice but JJ managed to finish the inning. Buck did warm up Gonzo in the 8th. This might have played a role in using him in the 10th since managers like to use a guy who’s warmed up.

Folksy literate type.

by birdman on Apr 15, 2011 1:10 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm not defending Gregg

And I love Koji, but Koji’s track record against the yankees is awful if I remember correctly. I haven’t researched it, but I’m pretty sure it is.

What up?

by snakethejake on Apr 15, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

its only in four games

way way way too small an amount of games to say the Yankees have Koji’s number

Free Nolan Reimold!

by Andrew_G on Apr 15, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

He also

warmed up Koji. Why not use him? He’s better than either of the Gs.

The person who introduced Andrew to baseball and the O's

by QTess on Apr 15, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see your frank sobotka...

and raise you..

"Ohhh it's baad" - E. Smith

by mpire on Apr 15, 2011 1:10 PM EDT reply actions  

These stats make me even angrier

But still great to know. Even more fodder for when people ask me why I’m screaming hateful things at the television every time I see this guy’s ugly face.

Less big words and more exclamation marks

by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Apr 15, 2011 1:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Gregg has a face that you could just punch

Doesn’t he?

Back on the Sweed train. Choo Choo!
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller

by John Stephens on Apr 15, 2011 1:16 PM EDT reply actions  

I know the problem

Kevin Gregg needs to get some Rick “Wild Thing” Vaughn glasses with the skull, then he will be nasty.

by IggesRule13 on Apr 15, 2011 1:25 PM EDT reply actions  

He was given ten million, he had to be given a proper chance to fail

I am not ready to get all surly on Buck going back on his win rule/save rule thing quite yet.

by snotboogie on Apr 15, 2011 1:26 PM EDT reply actions  

How does Gregg in 2010 compare to Sherril in 2008?

So both pitcher’s “Good” years look fairly similar (not that well versed in baseball stats).

Which would you rather have?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sherrge01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/greggke01.shtml

"Ohhh it's baad" - E. Smith

by mpire on Apr 15, 2011 1:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Wasn't 2009 George's best year?

Back on the Sweed train. Choo Choo!
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller

by John Stephens on Apr 15, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh...and

Back on the Sweed train. Choo Choo!
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller

by John Stephens on Apr 15, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow

there’s a diabolical fu manchu dying to escape there.

"Ohhh it's baad" - E. Smith

by mpire on Apr 15, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

In closer terms

I was looking primarily at saves, he didn’t do much of that with the dodgers

"Ohhh it's baad" - E. Smith

by mpire on Apr 15, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Still

When he was closing for us, his numbers had been ridiculous that year.

Back on the Sweed train. Choo Choo!
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller

by John Stephens on Apr 15, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great article, Andrew.

One eye-opening stat I’d like to point out though between the three end of game options, or so-called options, is 2010 BB/9:

Gregg – 4.6
Gonzalez – 5.1
Koji – 1.0

Personally, I really like the idea of a guy being on the mound at the end of the game who has some idea of where the fuck his pitches are going.

Fan-dabby-dozy.....tastic.....

by Jonny Pops on Apr 15, 2011 1:29 PM EDT reply actions  

option 4 - win rule (which I am still holding out hope to see some day)

Reliever in the eighth is strong and throwing nasty shit.
maybe leave him in.

by snotboogie on Apr 15, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

yes

no reason to take out JJ. NONE.

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and a little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Apr 15, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

double yes

This is the thing I can’t understand about ALL managers I see in MLB now. No one seems to understand the basic fact that EVERY PITCHING CHANGE INTRODUCES RISK. Everyone admits when talking about games afterward that often pitchers don’t have their pitches, the all pitching performance is volatile, etc. So that means every pitching change is possibly a solution, possibly a new problem. So shouldn’t you have an existing problem you need to solve before your insert a new potential solution/problem? The current state of the guy in the game you know. The current state of the replacement you have yet to find out.

Like a bad, suave dude. You know what I'm sayin'. COOL. SC 7/24/08

by 33 on Apr 15, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Triple yes

And I’ll go ahead and proxy quadruple yes for WW since we were talking about that on the OT

Less big words and more exclamation marks

by Astronaut Mike Dexter on Apr 15, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can I get a quintuple?

Back on the Sweed train. Choo Choo!
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller

by John Stephens on Apr 15, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes yes yes yes yes

"I put a pepper rub on the scallops so you have a little contrast. You have sweetness from the coconut oil and a little acidity from the splash of lemon." – Luke Scott

by zknower on Apr 15, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes x 5

I’m not into 2nd guessing managers, but I do wonder what is it about the game I don’t understand that makes pulling a reliever that has pitched well just to get to your closer the “smart” move to make.

While democracy must have its organization and controls, its vital breath is individual liberty.
- Charles Evans Hughes

by timg56 on Apr 15, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

With Gonzalez’s wind up, I am not surprised that he walks that many

Back on the Sweed train. Choo Choo!
"It’s easy to lie with statistics, but it’s easier to lie without them." -Fred Mosteller

by John Stephens on Apr 15, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

for real

he looks like he’s falling off the side of the goddamn mound on his follow through.

Fan-dabby-dozy.....tastic.....

by Jonny Pops on Apr 15, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is what he looked like

last year in April. Same flailing.

...it wasn't to the Gonzalez that I'm used to...

by killertomato on Apr 15, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I broke my laptop in anger over this game

rough loss. I had a 1000-to-1 bet the O’s would go wire to wire.. pleased it lasted this long.

by FreddieBoomBoomBynum on Apr 15, 2011 2:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Technically, the bet is still alive, as Baltimore is still in first place.

While democracy must have its organization and controls, its vital breath is individual liberty.
- Charles Evans Hughes

by timg56 on Apr 15, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh... no?

We fell out of first with the loss last night. One game behind.

"You can always tell Yankees fans by the total vacancy which occupies the space where most other people have faces." - J. K. O'Toole (paraphrased)

by Eat More Esskay on Apr 15, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think there'll be anyone here who disagrees with the points in the article

Despite that, I get the feeling that we’ll still see Gregg (attempt to) save games. I’m hoping that this last performance may have tipped the scales over to only bringing out Gregg in mostly in low leverage multi-run lead save or not-save-but-not-blowout situations, then trying out some of the other options for the tighter situations, closer-by-committee style.

Is that ideal? Far from it. Does it still go against Showalter’s quoted mindset? Absolutely. Just seems to me like the most realistic outcome that’s not “Gregg still gets all the save ops anyway” at this point.

by zsiv on Apr 15, 2011 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

The worst part (for me)

was it was the first fucking pitch. Like he couldn’t wait to blow it. Like it was Job Number One.

...it wasn't to the Gonzalez that I'm used to...

by killertomato on Apr 15, 2011 2:22 PM EDT reply actions  

This may have been discussed already...

But did anyone see Gregg’s quote in the Sun? He said, “I think at this point Posada has to do a lot of things right to hit a ball like that, and he did.”

What does that mean? “I thought Posada was old and shitty, so I figured grooving a first-pitch fastball wouldn’t hurt me.”

Just a weird comment. Sort of taking a backhanded swipe at the guy who crushed you.

by PaulFolk on Apr 15, 2011 2:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, I was so pissed off after that Amber interview...

I basically came out of it with the idea that:

-He knows he FUCKED us, BUT… was happy with himself he got out without giving up anymore runs, and that he though that first pitch to Posada was awesome and that he just put a lucky stroke on it.

Its not lucky when every SINGLE person in the Gamethread called it. We knew we were doomed.

Fuck that guy. His name was just written in the “Garret Atkins All-Stars” book…. imo

by Wieters Wieners on Apr 15, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I brutally misquoted him last night...

But the sentiment was there imo. I was so pissed at him and the brain was going 100mph during his interview. My bad.

by Wieters Wieners on Apr 15, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

If someone asked me if I could do better..

I would say no, but given a week of coaching and his salary, I’m fairly confident I could do the same.

"Ohhh it's baad" - E. Smith

by mpire on Apr 15, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe we should sign him.

While democracy must have its organization and controls, its vital breath is individual liberty.
- Charles Evans Hughes

by timg56 on Apr 15, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

re

I honestly believe it’s only a matter of time before Gregg is replaced as closer by someone

I thought the same thing last night. Gregg was given the contract this off season, much like Gonzalez last off season. I think Buck has to give Gregg the chance to do the job he was paid to do. Gonzalez flopped last year then got better in meaningless games. Buck has to see if either of these guys can do it in meaningful games. The term meaningful is relative. For the O’s it means can they perform well enough to support the team in winning 81 games. Last night was a test for the veterans in Yankee stadium. Buck tested the two arms MacPhail spent decent money on. They both failed. I wonder how long they’ll be tolerated. I have a feeling Buck will be going to MacPhail to say here’s another contract you have to eat along with the Gonzalez one. I expect to see a few more morale crushing blown games until Buck reaches that point.

by drj on Apr 15, 2011 2:57 PM EDT reply actions  

To be quite perfectly honest...

Leaving Gregg as the “closer” is probably the best move. Because, frankly, you don’t want your best pitcher as the closer. Because in most “save” circumstances, you’re not in a high leverage situation. Who do you want coming in when you’re up by 3 runs? Your best reliever? I hope not.

Meanwhile, if it’s the 7th inning and you’re up by 1 and there’s two on and 1 out, who do you want coming in? Your best reliever, I’d hope. That’d be Koji. Not Kevin Gregg.

Of course, that doesn’t excuse Gregg’s usage last night. Gregg’s probably the 5th best pitcher in the bullpen, so you don’t want him used when you’re up by 1 at any point, unless you have no other choice.

The real problem is that no manager knows how to effectively use a bullpen. Buck’s no different. The real way to use a bullpen is to bring in your best reliever in the highest leverage situations. The closer you are to losing the lead (or giving up more runs if you’re already down), the more likely you should be to bring in your best reliever. No manager does this. The best reliever usually is eventually made into a closer, then not used unless you’re up by less than 3 in the 9th inning.

It’s a joke and it won’t change any time with this generation of managers. It’ll be a while before things straighten themselves out.

by Holymittens on Apr 15, 2011 3:05 PM EDT reply actions  

It doesn't matter if it's the 7th or the 9th inning.

If you’re in a high-leverage situation you bring in your best reliever. Your best reliever shouldn’t be your closer, and he shouldn’t not be your closer. He’s just your best reliever.

by ahoque24 on Apr 15, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think our save conversation rate is probably higher than Kevin Gregg's...

you know, if this article is any indicator.

Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.

by arlingtonOsFan on Apr 15, 2011 3:26 PM EDT reply actions  

I've always thought Saves was a useless stat.

But I seem to recall more than one article looking at whether it mattered having one closer you could count on or going with a committee approach, with the conclusion being it’s better with the one guy.

Of course this only applies if that “one guy” isn’t Kevin Gregg.

While democracy must have its organization and controls, its vital breath is individual liberty.
- Charles Evans Hughes

by timg56 on Apr 15, 2011 6:02 PM EDT reply actions  

I'd say thats likely because those teams that go with a committee approach are lacking one really good reliever

who they wouldn’t hesitate to name closer if they could, and thereby are just not as good of teams anyway. That doesn’t prove necessarily that teams that do have a ‘closer-quality’ pitcher are using them most effectively.

by kba26 on Apr 15, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't the point that you have a closer or you don't?

If you have to go to a committee approach it usually means you do not have a guy you can depend on.

While democracy must have its organization and controls, its vital breath is individual liberty.
- Charles Evans Hughes

by timg56 on Apr 18, 2011 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Andrew

You need to talk to my friend John. He came in my office this am furious. He firmly believes that a starting pitcher should stay in the game as long as possible and given the chance to close the game himself. He hates the “closer” role. He believes you should use the best pitcher available for any situation.

BTW – John was a pitcher in the minors for both the Braves and Yankee organization, but is a firm O’s fan.

The person who introduced Andrew to baseball and the O's

by QTess on Apr 15, 2011 6:11 PM EDT reply actions  

right

he was in “Good Enough to Dream”, right?

Free Nolan Reimold!

by Andrew_G on Apr 15, 2011 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

and played for the Utica Blue Sox

The person who introduced Andrew to baseball and the O's

by QTess on Apr 17, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is this the first time Buck lost a game for the O's?

I know Gregg lost it, but that’s what we expect him to do.

Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you'll like the book.

by arlingtonOsFan on Apr 15, 2011 6:30 PM EDT reply actions  

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