Bird Food: Modernize This Franchise
In a Q&A session with Andy MacPhail and Buck Showalter last Saturday, a fan asked how the O's use sabermetrics in the team's decision making. Luckily, MASN's Steve Melewski was on hand to report the lovely totals. Unfortunately, the answers displayed the 20th century thinking that we all know and love. Let's take a look at MacPhail's answers first.
In terms of player acquisition and player evaluation, we'll have standard reports that has basic information, salary information, basic stats and scouting information. But then we devote about a third of it to things that we think fit into that category.
We are trying to ascertain trends or hidden value or maybe hidden landmines that we have to avoid. There are certain statistics that we look at and evaluate that help us determine and make a judgement, is the trend line moving up or we do have to be concerned that player might be on the precipice of a real fall.
I don't think "basic stats" is what the person asking the question had in mind. I suppose in Andy's mind there is a lot of room for play in deciding what counts as using sabermetrics. Perhaps he sees the use of any numbers as a sabermetrics approach. For this reason, I prefer if someone would have asked him if he uses specific stats instead. At the very least, I would love to know if the front office uses defensive metrics like UZR or +/-, FIP, and wOBA and how much weight is placed on these statistics. But more broadly, I want to know if the organization is taking advantage of the wealth of new pitching and hit tracking data available. For example, Buster Olney mentioned one usage of statistics by the Rays that succintly illustrates the difference between a modern, cutting edge organization and the Orioles.
The Tampa Bay Rays are thought to use statistics as extensively as any team, and manager Joe Maddon and general manager Andrew Friedman consult frequently and often use numbers to shape lineups and affect change in the way players do things. At the outset of spring training, for example, a set of statistics were presented to pitcher James Shields, as the team suggested changes in his pitching approach.
Now we don't know that the Orioles aren't implementing the same approach with certainty. But whether it's using pitchFX or scouting under the radar international markets, I highly suspect the Orioles aren't doing anything out of the box in order to gain a competitive edge. I would love to know more about how the Rays uses numbers to "shape lineups and affect change in the way players do things." And whatever that entails, Andy's answer above doesn't inspire much confidence that they are doing similar innovative practices. I'm glad that the O's are looking to find hidden value, but they won't find the broad side of a barn if they don't know how to use the tools of the trade. Luckily, the Orioles do have the inspirational videos that Buck showed the pitchers in spring training so let's move on to his answers.
I think you use all avenues available to you. To say, I'm not ever going to look at that or this - I had a guy a long time ago say to me about scouting that you need to let statistics validate your gut, instead of let your gut be developed by statistics.
This is just a horrible answer. First, Buck essentially admitted that he doesn't pay attention to advanced metrics. And worse, his answer is plagued by the worst kind of confirmation bias ever. What the hell is the point of looking at statistics if you're only using them to confirm what you think.
We are dealing with human beings; these aren't a bunch of robots. There are things I know about in the clubhouse and dugout and things going on in their day-to-day lives that impact their play.
I love this. The ROBOTS! Skynet nods with approval. Overall, the O's need to out think the Rays, Jays, and Red Sox in order to over take them in the stands. At the very least, what I see above concerns me.
As a final note, I saw Camden Depot posted a short tidbit about JJ Hardy on ESPN's Sweetspot blog In case you didn't see it, here's the blurb.
I think at the beginning of this year, the team could have extended Hardy for $7 million a year or so. This offseason will consist of basically him and Reyes at shortstop with several shortstop-hungry teams. I think it has made extending Hardy misguided and may largely be impractical with the Orioles apparent budget. Hardy is a bit of a risk that I would be fine with at $7 million, but not $14 million. I also think we need to consider how much longer he will be capable of playing shortstop as he is not particularly quick; a five-year extension with Hardy might be similar to what we are seeing with Brian Roberts.
Unfortunately, I think Camden Depot is spot on here. I wanted to extend Hardy before the season when I thought 3/$21 was possible. Now Hardy has priced himself out of reasonable range for the Orioles. At the very least, he's lined up for a Brian Roberts type contract this off season, probably more. And as much as I love JJ Hardy, I'm leery of the Orioles paying him that much.
FanPosts are user-created content and do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Camden Chat or SB Nation. They might, though.
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Good post man
I would have liked to have asked a similar question to Buck and Andy. My first post was on an extension to Hardy and it was interesting looking back at our posts Birdman.
http://www.camdenchat.com/2011/1/14/1935625/making-a-case-for-a-jj-hardy-extension
by FreddieBoomBoomBynum on Jun 29, 2011 3:31 AM EDT reply actions
A lot of teams are using proprietary statistics
as opposed to the freely available stuff. They have their own in-house databases and algorithms and whatnot, and that stuff is a big investment for them, so there’s a secrecy game being played there, too. So if the Orioles have some kind of advanced thinking in place, it’s not unlikely that Andy MacPhail would want to not talk about it to the public. That’s also why you’re never going to hear the Rays talk publicly about the specifics of what they do. It’s way too valuable to not have their opponents know.
Of course, there’s a ton of reasons to think there’s no advanced thinking going on at all in the warehouse if you look at just roster construction and player handling (and I’m not sure where the hidden value is supposed to be, exactly).
Kevin Gregg is ruining everything I love about baseball, he really is.
by Andrew_G on Jun 29, 2011 7:38 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
yeah, I think in a way stats like WAR, wOBA, and FIP are probably irrelevant to most clubs (even the Rays)
because they have their own systems in place for interpreting the data that those numbers are derived from.
Sure, I agree. I know the A’s and Red Sox have proprietary defensive statistics in place. I’m just skeptical of the O’s doing anything similar. And I certainly don’t expect the Rays to give away their secrets. But at the same time, I’m very curious.
Folksy literate type.
Skeptical is an understatement for my feelings
Kevin Gregg is ruining everything I love about baseball, he really is.
I read this blog this morning
while I was reading CNNSI, the MLB section. This was the lead story recommended for the Orioles. That’s pretty cool.
The JJ Hardy stuff is eye-opening, and something I hadn’t really thought out. However, if JJ has outplayed a 3/$21 million dollar contract, and it seems like he clearly has, then I would be in favor of trading him in the next month.
John S West Jr
by Adam double bubble on Jun 29, 2011 9:01 AM EDT reply actions
awesome!
"the secret to a happy ending is knowing when to roll the credits"
by j.q. higgins on Jun 29, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
the same thing we do every night
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Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
by danielreese05 on Jun 29, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
There are certain statistics that we look at and evaluate that help us determine and make a judgement, is the trend line moving up or we do have to be concerned that player might be on the precipice of a real fall.
Did these statistics not predict Garret Atkins fall?
I have next to zero faith in this organization given their choices in free agents over the last few years.
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever
Regarding Hardy
Sure the O’s could have extended him in spring training for much cheaper than they could now, but at that point he was an injury risk who hadn’t put up an average offensive year since 2008 and who they had just acquired for 2 minor league relievers. Can anybody really blame them for not wanting to commit to 3 years/$21 M at that point? Also while he might seem like a bargain right now at 3 years/$21 M he could just as easily go back on the disabled list between now and the off season and we’d all be happy they didn’t extend him. It’s a complicated question and there’s always second guessing – the second guessing is just a lot easier when the guy is having the best year of his career.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Can anybody really blame them for not wanting to commit to 3 years/$21 M at that point?
It’s a calculated risk given, one I wish they would have taken. They didn’t so oh well. And I really don’t think he was much of injury risk before the season. Other than last season, he’s been pretty healthy. He only played in 115 MLB games in 2009 because the Brewers sent him to AAA, not because he was injured. Obviously, his DL stint earlier this year doesn’t help his case.
Folksy literate type.
There was last season and the major injury that he had in the minors.
For a 28 year old that sure seems like an injury risk and it turned out to in fact be an injury risk since he’s already missed 1/3rd of the games this year.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Was it?
He’s 28 – shouldn’t you consider everything in his professional career before giving him a 3 year $21 M contract? The injury happened when he was 21 and it was a pretty strange one, so I would sure want to think about it.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
Sure, you should consider it
but if the injury has healed and he hasn’t had any enduring problems with it since then, I wouldn’t sweat it too much. Once you go all the way back to the minors, I’m guessing everybody has an injury history. And why stop at the minors? Why not go back to high school? Middle school? Etc.
Folksy literate type.
Because you're not a fully developed adult in high school and middle school.
Your body is physiologically different when you’re an adolescent than when you’re in your 20s. Joints are more stable, muscles stronger, etc.
And no I don’t think “everybody has an injury history” if you go back to the minors and certainly almost nobody has dislocated their arm severely enough to tear muscle from bone simply swinging a bat. That’s some weird ass shit.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
certainly almost nobody has dislocated their arm severely enough to tear muscle from bone simply swinging a bat.
Is that what happened to JJ in the minors? Yeah, that’s bad, but like I said, if he hasn’t any enduring problems with it since then, I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
Folksy literate type.
Apparently
it sounds like he had a more minor shoulder injury a year or two before and then in 2004 he had the real severe one. I don’t know if you remember but there was a link in bird droppings near the beginning of the season about how JJ’s brother was an Iraq veteran and when he came home he moved in with JJ and he was all fucked up and JJ was all depressed over a serious injury – that was the injury.
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
"nobody has dislocated their arm severely enough to tear muscle from bone simply swinging a bat."
Then we’ve got a bunch of damn slackers in the minors.
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Numbers happy
Vlad should be doing better; I thought Buck was smart enough to start him 4-5 times out of 6 to let him avoid guys with wicked fastballs in the high 90’s. Alou and Soscia handled him a lot better, I’m surprised Buck is so laissez-faire.
I like Vlad a lot but right now he should be hitting 3rd or sixth.
Because
He’s hustles, still makes lots of contact (so little chance of strike him out, throw him out double plays for instance), and it may motivate him to be better as he will still get his AB’s. Just leaving him at #4 with no consequences is not a good idea. He works his butt off and has tremendous enthusiasm and dedication, but everyone needs consequences.
3rd typically goes to your "best hitter"
does that fit vlad? if not, who fits its better?
the way they’ve been hitting, how about:
hardy
kakes (finally hitting, before i’d dropped him to 7-9)
jones
reynolds
wieters
lee
scott/reimold
vlad
2b
Yeah, that's how it should be.
Don't forget - sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is a train coming head on
by J(O's)elskIL on Jun 29, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think prevailing wisdom is that the best hitters bat 1st, 2nd and 4th
because the 3 spot has a higher percentage of coming up with the bases empty. I tried finding the link but it is escaping me.
Mother, did it need to be so high.
It's from The Book, but here's a BtB explanation of it.
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3/17/795946/optimizing-your-lineup-by
Still, the 3rd batter is going to get a lot of plate appearances, so even when you fill in the more important lineup spots, there will still probably be guys I’d want batting 3rd instead of Vlad (I’m saying probably because I’m too lazy to construct a lineup right now).
He hustles????
Is that what you call that ridiculously slow lumbering where it looks like he’s speed walking on hot coals?
I am eating you, motherfucker. You cannot hurt me. - PhilR8
he hustles, but I could probably make it to second faster if I army crawled.
Damn it feels good to be a contributor, Music City Miracles.
@DPR9
by danielreese05 on Jun 29, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
For him, that's hustling
Felix Pie is a ninja robot sent from the future to make everything adorable.
He is totally trying,
His knees are just the victims of the astroturf. He is no Manny Ramirez…
If you look at those UZR ratings or whatever

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